Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: bilder on October 06, 2012, 11:25:32 pm

Title: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: bilder on October 06, 2012, 11:25:32 pm
I have been reading lots of info on beekeeping and came across the other types of hive designs other than the Lang.

Would a top bar be a good hive for a beginner?  I could build one for next to nothing and the cost savings is really appealing, but I was curious if they are a good hive for a beginner to start with.  Or should I save my money up to get a lang?

Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 07, 2012, 07:18:37 am
Here is a bit on TBH:
http://www.bjornapiaries.com/topbarbeekeeping.html (http://www.bjornapiaries.com/topbarbeekeeping.html)

Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: GLOCK on October 07, 2012, 08:35:23 am
I'd go with 3 Lang's if your a new beekeeper alto to learn and next year  get TBH .
I know I'm going into my 3rd winter as a beekeeper and next spring I'm going to use a TBH that my wife built me last year.
I think your better off learning LANGS the first two years and then when  you get a feel for  beekeeping your TBH will go much better I'm sure.
Matter what you chose bee's don't really show there true colors till the secone year then  you'll know what beekeeping is get ready to lean sure is
fun.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Joe D on October 08, 2012, 11:49:14 am
There are pros and cons to each.  I think that the most people here like the langs.  When you go to extract, I don't know of away to use an extractor for TBH.  I have some of each, and I like them both.  I also use the 1 1/2 in wide bars like Bjorn but I had a cut out right after I built it so I made them into frames.  Good luck with which ever you decide.
(http://s12.postimage.org/dvbmgbla1/clover_bees_004.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dvbmgbla1/)

(http://s8.postimage.org/vwtdm53v5/IMG_0153.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vwtdm53v5/)

Joe
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Jim134 on October 08, 2012, 12:17:41 pm
I have been reading lots of info on beekeeping and came across the other types of hive designs other than the Lang.

Would a top bar be a good hive for a beginner?  I could build one for next to nothing and the cost savings is really appealing, but I was curious if they are a good hive for a beginner to start with.  Or should I save my money up to get a Lang?




IMHO save your time and money and do not buy/built a TBH. Good luck with which ever you decide.


Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Kathyp on October 08, 2012, 01:22:57 pm
you have a lot to deal with and learn as a beginner.  i'd go with the Lang to start.  you can do the top bar type anytime.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 08, 2012, 03:01:08 pm
I always find the whole "Do the Langstroth first" a bit interesting.

While I could care less which someone selects, why the big issue with seemingly suggesting that TBH are somehow more difficult?

What education points are gained by having a Langstroth for a year prior to doing a TBH?

With the exception of perhaps horizontal issues as compared to vertical issues, and a tad harder (But not impossible) to feed a TBH, beekeeping is beekeeping. What in the world would you learn about TBH beekeeping a year with a Langstroth, that would prepare you for a TBH?

TBH even has their advantages. It is far less difficult to open and inspect, and removing empty bars and moving through the comb, is much easier than popping an inner cover, removing stacked boxes, etc.

Nothing is so drastically different or difficult that a beginner could not get a TBH first.  And I fail to see any advantages of promoting a year or two with Lanstroth hives prior to getting a TBH, that would make it worth a wait.

I'm not out for a debate. Just curious to see what reasoning there is on this matter.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: David McLeod on October 08, 2012, 03:53:59 pm
My biggest issue is the why so many are advised to get started with a top bar. To hear all the internet gurus explain it the lang is the root of all evil and to steer a new beek into a TBH on those grounds is pure malpractice. FYI TBH is not the cure for the evils of modern beekeeping and it never will be. If anything it will be the tool that cripples more up and coming beeks than any other. JMHO

Now why I think a new beek should always start with a standard langstroth is the plain and simple truth that the lang is the industry standard and has been for over a century and will be long after all of us are dead and gone. Why not avail yourself of all of the knowledge and skills, not to mention off the shelf everything, accrued since Reverend Langstroth had his epiphany. Contrary to the many who are successful TBH beeks and advocates everything TBH is a one off proposition and will be for the forseeable future. Maybe someday the TBH will be standardized as the lang already is but when that happens I am quite sure it will gain it's own detractors as well.

New beeks are going to make mistakes, that's a given as old beeks still make mistakes. It is just so much easier to correct those mistakes in a piece of equipment that better lends itself, if for no other reason than commonality, for instant correction. I also opine that any new beek that is successful enough to reach the next level will be required, by the same industry standards, to move into a majority langstroth operation if he/she desires to interact with the rest of the beekeeping universe.

So unless one is willing to create out of whole cloth every facet required of a apicultural operation and is willing to restrict oneself to an entirely self contained existance then the Langstroth is the only thing going. The same applies to all other alternative means of housing the honeybee as well.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: David McLeod on October 08, 2012, 05:09:14 pm
Please read the above carefully. No where have I condemned the TBH as unfit for beekeeping. I actually think it is a great tool for those who fully understand it's limitations and can dedicate themselves to it's idiosyncracies. Just not the best option for those with no other beekeeping experience as there is not a fall back position as of yet, maybe someday but not now.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 08, 2012, 05:57:03 pm
Ok, to sum that up, Langstroths are pushed for reason of....

Because some promote TBH, for whatever the reason while making wild claims ( I agree - not a good thing), that it should be done the same for Langstroth. A kind of "tit for tat" to level out the playing field.

Because Langstroth is the oldest, and you should give homage to always doing the same thing without change.

Because Langstroth will be here long after we are all dead.

Because mistakes are more easily corrected in a Langstroth.  :?

Because, just in case, your ever going to be commercial beekeeper, Langstroth hives are more suited.  :roll:

Ok, anyone else have anything? Perhaps a list of mistakes more easily corrected? The rest is really made up stuff IMO or trivia that adds nothing to someone looking for details. It seems apparent that the whole "advocates everything TBH" type comments are bringing in nothing but bias to the conversation.

I don't push either one. I state both pro and con issues on my website.

I'm just trying to find out in detail why some think you need a couple years of Langstroth under your belt before some beekeeper should try a TBH. So far, that has not been answered.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Kathyp on October 08, 2012, 06:03:15 pm
new beekeeper are dealing with all the anxiety that goes with handling bees.  it's much easier to manipulate and examine full frames than top bars.  it's easier to figure how how much, if any honey you can take.  Langs are easier to move if you find you put yours in the wrong place.  having the Lang equipment lends itself more easily to swarm catching...although a cardboard box will do  ;)
if you belong to a club and need resources, it's more likely that someone will have frames, rather than bars, of bees

there's nothing wrong with either, but for a beginner i'd lean toward the least complicated for starting out.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: David McLeod on October 08, 2012, 06:20:00 pm
Okay, numbnut, how about this scenario for the simple. I'm holding in one hand a textbook on the subject and in the other a handful of bees. What pictures are in the book? Simple enough?
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: The Bix on October 08, 2012, 06:48:31 pm
FWIW, I'm in my fourth year of beekeeping.  All of what I've done the previous three years is 10-frame Langstroth hives.  This year I built and added in a Warre hive.  It was a LOT of fun, maybe just because it was new, but I wished I'd discovered it earlier.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Chrisd4421 on October 08, 2012, 07:18:32 pm
For me and from my perspective, the decision was based less on what I wanted and more on where I could learn more from.  On NJ, there are many more Lang beekeepers and I wanted to take advantage of that.  Now entering my 4th year, I am considering a TBH

HTH

Chris
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: bilder on October 08, 2012, 09:28:54 pm
Thanks for the tips guys. 

I appreciate the input.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 08, 2012, 11:10:43 pm
Okay, numbnut, how about this scenario for the simple. I'm holding in one hand a textbook on the subject and in the other a handful of bees. What pictures are in the book? Simple enough?

Who needs a book?  :beemaster:

Pictures..... :?

Thousands of beekeepers on a forum like this, and you narrow it down to what a beekeeper can find in probably an outdated book, looking at pictures.  :-D

Keep going.....you haven't found a good point yet to answer the simple question of why a beekeeper needs years of experience under his belt prior to getting a TBH.

But I give you credit for creativity.  :-D

Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: duck on October 08, 2012, 11:42:57 pm
how do top bars overwinter compared to langstroth especially in colder climates?
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 09, 2012, 07:37:16 am
new beekeeper are dealing with all the anxiety that goes with handling bees.  it's much easier to manipulate and examine full frames than top bars.  it's easier to figure how how much, if any honey you can take.  Langs are easier to move if you find you put yours in the wrong place.  having the Lang equipment lends itself more easily to swarm catching...although a cardboard box will do  ;)
if you belong to a club and need resources, it's more likely that someone will have frames, rather than bars, of bees

there's nothing wrong with either, but for a beginner i'd lean toward the least complicated for starting out.

kathy,
Since there are all types of TBH designs, it might be helpful for you to post a picture or two of your top bar hives. I know the design and styles I use, tends to be thought as very easy to inspect. You work from the empty end, removing empty bars, and can inspect bees with little irritation to the bees, as compared to the removing of an inner cover from a lang exposing all the bees to light from above. I can not remember the last time someone did not comment how docile the bees were in the TBH.

How a picture? That might answer some questions. Perhaps there is more to the "complicated" part I am missing.  
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: David McLeod on October 09, 2012, 12:17:39 pm
Bjorn, are you arguing that the newbie should go to the TBH because "this is the way we have always done it" is bad thing or we need more "thinking outside the box". I don't get where you're coming from. I will agree that the former can be just as crippling to a new beek as anything else because each of us are going to have to find what works for us, screw old idealogies. The danger with the latter is that without a basis in the box the tangents that outside thinking can go can arise from anywhere and not nessesarily a good starting point.
My biggest reason for supporting starting in a lang is to establish the baseline. Without a solid grounding flights of fancy like the TBH can come crashing down.
Nothing at all wrong with starting with a TBH if, and that is a very big IF, you have garnered the much needed knowledge of the honeybee and it's biology. As we all know from perusing this and other forums those newbies are the exception and not the rule, heck I would even apply that to many who aren't so new.
As a teacher on the subject myself, among the many I have taught, I am of the let's walk before you fly mindset. Let's get them firmly grounded in the fundamentals and then by all means encourage them to fly as high as they dare.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: wildforager on October 09, 2012, 03:01:52 pm
My vote is to start with a Lang hive first. I started with warres and TBH, then moved to langs. I'm not impressed with the warre and the TBH is ok but the lang hive is by far my fave. If I need more parts I can just order them, not so with the other hives. If I need some first hand mentoring with an old fart from my club he/she has no clue what to do with anything other than a lang hive. TBH and warres have angry me off with comb welded to the sides as well. I'm working on phasing out the warres completely from my bee yard and the TBH might be next. Maybe I'll keep a TBH as an example....hmmmm. As for warres they have to go. If I want "pet" bees I'll just put them in a log gum.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: bbrowncods on October 09, 2012, 04:17:28 pm
I am a newbee and am dealing with this same dilemma.  I am drawn to the Warre in the way it looks, its simplicity, and the management philosophy.  However, I don't know beans!  Ask me how to land an airplane on a Carrier and I can talk to you all day: I am scared to death of failing to keep an insect alive!

 There are so many variables and problems that can cause one to fail and get demoralized.  If the experience and knowledge base is in Langs, I think that lends a newbee with the greatest chance of success.  Once your confidence level is has reached the point where you want to try something new, then get a TBH and have fun!
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: kingbee on October 09, 2012, 06:32:43 pm
I have seen all types of things chosen by the honey bee for a new home.  Unless there was a lure employed or bees were in the structure before (like in an empty hive) I have never seen bees voluntarily take up house keeping in two identical structures.  (I may be mistake.)  I may have seen two feral bee colonies in the identical fuel tanks of 1964-66 Chevy pickup trucks but they make extremely poor bee hives, at least from the beekeepers view point, the bees however don't care about our viewpoint.  The relationship between hive types is like the relationship between an artificial fishing lure and the angler.  To hook and land either a fish or a hive of bees, every fishing lure or bee hive design has first got to lure in, hook, and land either an angler or a beekeeper. 

Langs in my opinion are easier on new beekeepers because of the level of dedication (I am not speaking about inattention but the difficulty of picking up enough (different) knowledge needed to keep bees in structures strange to us.  The greater amount of knowledge in the public domain concerning lang hives will help you more than hive type ever can.  Bees are not property snobs.  Bees are more like the little old ladies you see on TV who have too many cats, they are hoarders and perfer to be left alone.  Once you feel comfortable with bees in a lang, get yourself a 1965 C10 Chevy fuel tank or anyother unconventional hive design your heart desires. Good luck and "R" to you and to your bees.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Sundog on October 09, 2012, 07:48:20 pm
I'll offer my two cents...

TBHs may be better suited for lesser developed areas where no money or mail order is available.  I made one for the fun of making sawdust and the bees just recently absconded.  You can have mine for free, all you need to do is come get it.

It was about as much fun as an ant farm.  Pull the bars, watch the bees, find the queen.  My son and I enjoyed it.  THBs are not necessarily easier, just different.  I pull my frames one at a time rather than the whole box, the frames and the bars are both 19 inches wide, so there really isn't much difference, until you need to process them.

I will be replacing it with another Lang.  Because of all the reasons Bjornbee said and then some.  Developed civilizations have been experimenting for thousands of years, and we have mail-order to make it easy.

There is a National Geographic video where TBHs were hung on ropes around the perimeter of gardens in Africa to keep out the elephants.  Apparently they work well in that application, I don't think a Lang would work too well there.

Having fun costs money, but you can build boxes and boards, the frames are too much trouble for what they cost, and don't forget the foundation.  Grab some bees and jump in!

Have fun!
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 10, 2012, 10:54:15 am
Bjorn, are you arguing that the newbie should go to the TBH because "this is the way we have always done it" is bad thing or we need more "thinking outside the box". I don't get where you're coming from.

No. My point is that each type of hive has it's own set of problems. Or better yet....different ways of doing things.

So learning to use a boardman feeder or a top feeder in a lang lends no real benefit in regards to application to a TBH. It's like saying you should use wax foundation for a few year before you mess with plastic. Or you should buy only Italians before you mess with carni or Russians.

98% of bee biology is the same regardless of whether you are using a lang or TBH. And the differences that are between a lang and a TBH, are not anything that one could garner from using a lang first, then applying over to a TBH. Each has their own pro and cons.

I have 4 TBH. That accounts to less than 1% of my hives. 99% are langs. I just don't get caught up promoting one or the other for many of the sugestions I have heard. TBH are fun, interesting, unique. So are langs for any beginner. And that is what a hobby should be. 99% of beginners start off with a package, regardless of using a lang or TBH. And the information and assistance available today online, through forums, or even books, makes some idea that more books or information on Langs makes TBH harder, is a stretch.

Are TBH many times over-hyped? Sure. I have been saying that for years. And I even state that many of the claims about TBH, are false and mentioned on my website. The only type hive I do not promote is the Warre hive. No beginner should start with a Warre. And for that, I get weekly hate mail from a few zealots, mostly coming England & Germany. They equate anyone using Langs as money-honey pigs who are crual to their bees for a host of self-rightious reasons.

My point was, there are many things to learn. You need to learn what feeding methods are best, regardless of whether you use a Lang or a TBH. You need to learn to recognize and use good swarm prevention, regardless of using a Lang or a TBH. Just becuase you mastered or learned a year on one, makes no difference when you are faced with a whole new concept in using the other. Learning from one or the other makes no difference to me.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: TNTBEES on October 11, 2012, 12:56:51 am
1st year, 58 year old beek here.
Never been within 100 yds of a beehive in my life until this year. Didn't know one end of a bee from the other. I decided to give beekeeping a try last winter and spent the winter reading, watching u-tube videos, and looking at every website I could find. I decided to give Kenyan top bar hives a try because they were different, After all who wants to do what everyone else does. What's the fun in that? Built my own hives (2), installed two packages of carniolans in April. Had a chance to get a couple of five frame nuc's in May, so i built two warre's and did a chop and crop on the two nuc's. Had a chance to catch a swarm in May and put it in the other end of one of my ktb hives( i built 5 footers). Fast forward to today. I now have five hives that are ready for winter. The top bars hives all have 15 to 20 bars of stores each, the warres have three full boxes. My plans for spring are to split what makes it through the winter and add two long hives and a perone hive. My advice for what it is worth is do what ever interests you and fits your plans. Do your research and learn as much as you can to make an informed decision. If you try to make your decision solely based on what you read on forums you might miss out on a lot of fun and you might just learn a few things along the way. Most importantly you'll get out of your experience what you put into it.     Good luck and have fun, i sure have.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: bilder on October 11, 2012, 06:28:14 pm
Did not mean to start a debate, but I am learning the pros and cons of each through this discussion, so I guess that is a good thing.

For me, the TBH appeals due to the notion of working from scratch.  I am a cheap bastard by nature so the less money I have to shell out on a hobby the better.  But there comes a point where it is best to lay down some cash and get off to a good start, which is why the Lang seems the best way to start.  Everyone who keeps bees seems to have a lang, but not everyone has a TBH.  I did look at the Warre hive, but even though it is appealing, I am not sure I fully understand how they work and would be better off going with something with much more information out there to research.

I have not made a decision yet.  Just moved into the area and will find and attend a local meeting once I am settled in.  Hoping to meet someone willing to let a noob come over and watch the process a time or two so I can be more comfortable in caring for my own hive.  Perhaps I will have one of each to see what style I prefer. 
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: sterling on October 11, 2012, 08:48:43 pm
I like that one of each idea if you are not sure which one would be best for you. :)
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: hardwood on October 11, 2012, 09:00:39 pm
Whichever you chose it would be wise to start with two of the same type for comparison as well as the ability to share resources (swap frames of brood/honey etc.). I would go with langs myself as you may be able to wrangle these same resources from club members...most will use langs and no guarantee that those with TBH use the same size bars!

Scott
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Jim134 on October 11, 2012, 09:49:53 pm
IMHO at will be easy or to find information the resources for a langs



           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Sundog on October 12, 2012, 01:05:08 am
... it would be wise to start with two of the same type for comparison as well as the ability to share resources (swap frames of brood/honey etc.). I would go with langs myself as you may be able to wrangle these same resources from club members...most will use langs and no guarantee that those with TBH use the same size bars!

 :th_thumbsupup: +1

Good reasoning, tersely put.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Mannanan on October 12, 2012, 12:31:50 pm
OK, I would have to say there is no right answer to the original question. As previously stated by others, it depends on what the OP wants to get out of beekeeping. I run both KTBH's and Warres and they suit me. However, I am under no illusion that the bees prefer these, I agree, the bees simply don't care either way. So I would say, spend the winter reading, learning and deciding where you want to go and how you want to get there. Whatever you choose, it should be enjoyable or else you have got it wrong.
Good luck.
 
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: 2Sox on October 16, 2012, 01:42:42 pm
I started with TBHs some years ago.  I thought they were pretty cool.  Worked my way up to about six colonies and with the hope of expanding, built a total of twelve hives with the same specs so interchangeability would be easy.  Because of my own inexperience, I ended up with two live colonies after my second year.  And I never got much honey....ever.  And I'm smack in the middle of hundreds of thousands of acres of undeveloped watershed.

I sold every one of those top bar hives. Every one.  And it was the best thing I ever did.  You couldn't pay me to keep another top bar hive.  I now run between twenty and thirty Langs.  But that's me.  I'm not a detractor of TBHs but I'm certainly no advocate.

I feel the most important thing for a new beekeeper is to establish a communication, a network, with other beekeepers so he or she can learn. Inter-visitation is ideal. If that's not possible, forums like this one are invaluable.  It lessens the isolation a beginner feels - especially if they are without a mentor.  If a beginner starts off with TBHs, just by the very fact that so few people use them, there is a built in isolation factor.  I know this because I felt it acutely.  I partly brought this on myself because I was conceited and felt I knew better than those who were using those "old fashioned" Langstroths.  I was gonna raise bees "naturally"!  Only I knew the real scoop! What hooey! This whole episode of my beekeeping taught me a good lesson and truly humbled me.  And I believe it gave me more knowledge and an increased ability to care for my bees better.

I agree that building a TBH is much less expensive and if cost is a factor, TBHs are attractive.  If you want to let bees build their own comb, this can be done in Langs.  That's what I do. I feel that doing everything in Langs is easier - from networking, to getting nucs, to feeding, to combining, to IPM, to getting materials. I'm sure I could go on.

My advice: If you feel you'll enjoy the experience and learn more, get a top bar hive.  After you do, you'll appreciate the genius of a Langstroth.







Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 16, 2012, 02:12:16 pm
.
Langstroth is beekeeping and top bar is a toy or a religion.

When you have top bars, you must allways stand and smile and show that bees make their own combs. They must have hands tired.

Yes,they have made them even then when  homo sapiens did not walk on earth.

In top bar hives bees are eager to swarm because bees cannot understand horizontal hives.
Bees natural movement along a year is up and down and up

Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 16, 2012, 02:37:31 pm
Langstroth is beekeeping and top bar is a toy or a religion.

Same semantics as what TBH folks say about Langs. Just different words.  ;)

When you have top bars, you must allways stand and smile and show that bees make their own combs. They must have hands tired.

You lost me on that one.

Yes,they have made them even then when  homo sapiens did not walk on earth.

Lost me again.
Trivial persuit anyone?  :?

In top bar hives bees are eager to swarm because bees cannot understand horizontal hives.
Bees natural movement along a year is up and down and up

Interesting. I have never heard of that before. Not the up and down stuff, as that is obvious.
I just have never seen any information that horizontal hives swarmed at some rate higher than vertical hives.
Is this from your own experience? How long did you have TBHs? What was the difference in swarming rates in your own yards.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 17, 2012, 04:12:33 am

Is this from your own experience? How long did you have TBHs? What was the difference in swarming rates in your own yards.

horizontal chest typ hives were most common here 50 y ago.
But the german black was idiotic to swam. I burned my long hives 48 y ago.

Our professionals have tried to design a hive where you need not lift back and forth  boxes when you operate with the hive. So horizontal hive where you have frames near to lift.
Guys say that bees are not able to situate honey and  brood horizontaly.

As you look from youtube dadant hives in Eastern Europe in chest type  hives,  brood and honey are in same frames. They extract on field because they return frames to hive at once.

What ever top bar guys say about Langstroth, remember you cannot win stupid in debate.

.

Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 17, 2012, 07:32:15 am
I'll keep that in mind if I ever manage my bees like beekeepers did 50 years ago, or use German black bees.  ;)

Thank you. That answers much.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 17, 2012, 04:50:37 pm
I'll keep that in mind if I ever manage my bees like beekeepers did 50 years ago, or use German black bees.  ;)


Yes, rule one: before you open the hive, look carefully where is the dense willow bush through which you are going to rush when you have thrown away smoker and you bee hat and gloves..

....may the force be with you...
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 17, 2012, 05:06:47 pm
I'll keep that in mind if I ever manage my bees like beekeepers did 50 years ago, or use German black bees.  ;)


Yes, rule one: before you open the hive, look carefully where is the dense willow bush through which you are going to rush when you have thrown away smoker and you bee hat and gloves..

....may the force be with you...

 :idunno:
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: edward on October 17, 2012, 10:36:27 pm
TBH just for fun  :roll:

Top bar hives are great for the developing worlds to help people enable themselves and lift them out of poverty and make life better for families  :-D

And what do they do with the money that they make when they have a little extra after they have fed there family ?

They invest it in new hives with frames so they can make even more money and send there kids to school a better life and future  ;)

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 18, 2012, 01:52:39 am
TBH just for fun  :roll:

Top bar hives are great for the developing worlds to help people enable themselves and lift them out of poverty and make life better for families  :-D

What about your City Hives on the roof of theatre in Böna/Bean Village. 320 inhabitants.

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Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 18, 2012, 07:39:15 am
TBH just for fun  :roll:

Top bar hives are great for the developing worlds to help people enable themselves and lift them out of poverty and make life better for families  :-D

What about your City Hives on the roof of theatre in Böna/Bean Village. 320 inhabitants.

.

Yeah Edward...what about it?

Answer the question so I can understand perhaps one point that Finski has tried to make. Up till now I am just another ignorant and clueless American.  ;)

Does anyone know what is being said? Homo-sapiens, throwing gloves away, running through the willow bush, hives on top of a theatre, the relevancy of 320 inhabitants.....I am clueless.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 18, 2012, 10:30:13 am
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City of Bönan Sweden where Edward lives

(http://migrated.ifokus.se/uploads/dc0/dc05382a6b6feabbf19b2a24148ea8a5/p1050854.jpg)
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 18, 2012, 10:35:26 am

I am clueless.

Chips happen even in better families

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Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: edward on October 18, 2012, 03:31:36 pm
throwing gloves away, running through the willow bush?

When all else fails and you can no longer see through your beekeeping veil RUN like  :evil:

The bees hopefully wont chase you through dens bushes and shrubbery  :thunder:

mvh edward  :-P

Looking for links to the rest, have to watch the Simpson's first  :roll: :-D
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 18, 2012, 04:05:43 pm
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German black had special feature. They hit under water line. Italian and Carniolans do not do that.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Nature Coast Beek on October 18, 2012, 04:44:27 pm
OP

Individual preferences will probably mean the difference and make your decision easier. I would caution you on thinking purely from an upfront economic standpoint solely. Time is money and one design might give you early wallet savings, but be a bit longer in another area such as learning curve and maintenance time.

For me, I chose Langstroth type hive as the way to go after researching for a good 5 or so months. I researched all manners of hives and totally ruled out the Warre design. I do think that design matters for the BEEKEEPER. I wanted a portable and swap-able system, the Lang hive and frame design fits that bill. With a Lang I could just purchase 5 frame nucs and transfer the equipment to a larger box without fuss. Pretty much plug-n-play. Also with a Lang, for me the frame swapping between hives seemed to be much easier with time savings in the long run. To me, I thought the Lang design offered itself to easier packing and moving (portability) than TBH. Lastly, for my purposes, I think the Lang frame design will be easier in the long run for honey extracting and frame durability and swapping.

Now, with all that being said, I am totally open to TBH design and will probably keep a couple in due time and space. Do I think one is better than the other? For my purposes, needs and wants I certainly do think one is better than the other, but that was for me to figure out and decide. Determine your needs, wants and desires and the hive design that best suits them will be easier to find.

Just my .02
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: buzzbee on October 18, 2012, 06:46:00 pm
I think Finski was referring to the temperament of the German black bees when talking about throwing everything and running through the thick willows to escape.Nasty bees in a large open top hive would probably make for some excitement!!! :-D
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 19, 2012, 02:51:16 am
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What is the best in beekeeping is moving hives to good pastiures. You may get 3-5 fold yields from different places.
Top bar frames do not stand moving.

When I started my beekeeping I moved stuff with bicycle  10 miles to  out pastures. I gto yield in my home yard only in June.
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Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: BjornBee on October 19, 2012, 07:45:04 am
Ok, so we are back to living 50 years ago.

First German black bees and swarm management of 50 years ago, and now comments of using a bike to move hives.

So let's just skip the fact that 98% or better of all beekeepers are hobbyists and probably keep keep bees for the pure enjoyment, and are not driven to move hives multiple times. Skip over the fact that most have cars and or trucks. Let's forget most keep bees on their own property for convenience.

So we can better promote Langs, and justify with reasons NOT to get a TBH, let's just assume everyone lives as they did 50 years ago.

But if we did go back then.... Most did not have credit cards. So buying everything on credit was not possible. Do you think many would of been frugal and had the ability to build a TBH 50 years ago?

Go back 50 years. Did everyone have an extractor? Seems to me that reasoning may be that most would of benefitted from crush and strain. Club extractors and many more beekeepers with their own extractors, honey houses, and the ambition to sell honey at market, was probaby much lower 50 years ago.

Seems to me that there are many reasons, if we are still living 50 years ago, that TBH might seem a worthy alternative. And using experiences from 50 years ago, mentions of black bees, how much easier it is to move Langs on a bike, and beekeepers moving hives to different pastures (like how many do that?), are real stretches in the promotion of Langs over TBH.

As I said earlier, to me I could care less about one or the other. I just find it amusing how each side complains about each others promotion and denigration of the other, while doing nothing but fluffing their own opinions to what they promote.

Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: edward on October 19, 2012, 10:31:12 am
TBH or Langstroth ? You guys are lucky

Here in Sweden we have a real mess with 10 different frame sizes  :(

4 different lengths of frames make them non interchangeable  :(

I big mess!
I do my part by burning the least popular sizes and recommend the langstroth format to all beeginners, but its a free choice for them to make, odd sizes have a low worth on the second hand market.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: kingbee on October 21, 2012, 02:08:59 pm
... I am a cheap bastard by nature so the less money I have to shell out on a hobby the better...

Why didn't you tell us that to begin with.  In that case this is the hive for you.
And remember, there are few people on the face of the Earth who must conserve money more than an Ethiopian.
http://www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/image/700-01993241/Beehives-in-Tree-Rift-Valley-Ethiopia (http://www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/image/700-01993241/Beehives-in-Tree-Rift-Valley-Ethiopia)

These hives are woven from straw or tree branches, like the skep hives in this country or Europe were 150+ years ago.  I am unsure about this, but I would not bet against them having the cracks dobbed up or filled in with good old fashion organic cow poop.  The straw European skep hives always was covered in a thick layer of fresh cow dung.
Heathland Beekeeping - 2 - Preparations for the Swarming Period in a Heather Skep Apiary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrehDfkazO0#)

At between minute 4 and 5 in the above video is a good up close of of a skep hive and its covering.  Oh yes I almost forgot, the apiary owner uses what looks to be the same pocket knife in a later video to harvest or cut up, his cut comb honey.

Do remember that with a skep or an African Top Bar WOVEN or basket hive it is often (almost always) necessary to kill the colony before each harvest, a TBH or a KTBH is a compromise between a true skep hive and a Lang hive to avoid killing the colony.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: edward on October 21, 2012, 02:29:27 pm
Tbh and straw skeps  :roll: Seems like some beekeeper like to turn the clock backwards  :roll:

Makes me wonder if the drive there  :brian: T Ford  :brian: beetween bee yards  :roll:  :brian:  :lau:
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 21, 2012, 03:37:21 pm
[  The straw European skep hives always was covered in a thick layer of fresh cow dung.


hehe hehe heh.  Must be good honey.

Actually original beehives were wood too and they were lifted to trees that bears not eate them

Ukraine

(http://www.colourbox.com/preview/1776112-512580-antique-wooden-chapel-and-beehive-pirogovo-kyiv-ukraine.jpg)

(http://s43.radikal.ru/i102/1110/2d/280f29c43bb7.jpg)
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 21, 2012, 03:41:32 pm
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Modern

(http://pchely-i-lyudi.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/iz-e%60toy-semi-skoro-vyiletit-roy.jpg)
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Michael Bush on October 21, 2012, 04:27:55 pm
Bees are still bees whatever box they are in...
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: kingbee on October 21, 2012, 05:50:44 pm
Bees are still bees whatever box they are in...

So very very true.  The box used is only for the convince of the bees' keeper, not for the health and happiness of the bees.  There is not some magic hive design that bees never die in or abscon from.  They are or will become your bees.  Bees are bees and at least the bee colony are living creatures, (I am not so sure about each individual bee) and death is a condition imposed by life on all living things.  Bees are fascinating creatures, so hive them up in what ever you wish, after a few years you will see that many of the books you so eagerly read are hokum because bees do what bees want to do, not what you or I wish or want them to do.  Listen to Michael  He is telling you the truth.

May all your beekeeping problems be as small as this one and good luck.
Title: Re: Top Bar or Lang for a newbie?
Post by: Finski on October 21, 2012, 10:12:40 pm
Bees are still bees whatever box they are in...

So very very true.  The box used is only for the convince of the bees' keeper, not for the health and happiness of the bees.  There is not some magic hive design that bees never die in or abscon from.  They are or will become your bees.  Bees are bees and at least the bee colony are living creatures, (I am not so sure about each individual bee) and death is a condition imposed by life on all living things.  Bees are fascinating creatures, so hive them up in what ever you wish, after a few years you will see that many of the books you so eagerly read are hokum because bees do what bees want to do, not what you or I wish or want them to do.  Listen to Michael  He is telling you the truth.

May all your beekeeping problems be as small as this one and good luck.


Now, stop drinking...
..