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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Finsky on February 23, 2007, 05:07:53 am

Title: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 23, 2007, 05:07:53 am
Google search http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=varroa+tolerant+bees&meta=

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2002/vol2-1/gmr0040_full_text.htm

Varroa-tolerant Italian honey bees introduced from Brazil , 2002

in Brazil an isolated population of Italian honey bees has been kept on an island since 1984 without treatment against this mite. The infestation rates in these colonies have decreased over the years. We looked for possible varroa-tolerance factors in six Italian honey bee colonies prepared with queens from this Brazilian island population, compared to six Carniolan colonies, both tested at the same site in Germany..............
In spite of the apparent adaptation of this population of Italian bees in Brazil, we found no indication of superiority of these bees when we examined the proportions of damaged mites and the varroa-infestation rates, compared to Carniloan bees kept in the same apiary in Germany.

Varroa-Tolerant Honey Bees Are a Reality

Finsky: In the end half of 1990-decade it has wroten that it is easy to select varroa tolerant beestock. You just pick them. Now 10 years have gone and we are not so positive with that question.

http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/abj/varroa.html
"In the November 1998 issue of The American Bee Journal (pp. 828-832) we reported the results for the first two years of our effort to develop a Varroa-tolerant population of honey bees (Erickson et. al., 1998). "

We have now maintained this Varroa-tolerant honey bee population since November, 1994 via selective breeding, queen mating in isolation, and conventional beekeeping practices, without the use of any other mite control strategies. All colonies were last examined and sampled on July, 27, 1999. Three colonies were queenless, and three others had evidence of a break in brood rearing and new supersedure queens. Two colonies, although vigorous, had visible evidence of Varroa infestation. All remaining colonies appeared Varroa free.     

---- where are they now 10 years later?

**************************

Wednesday 21 August 2002, Ne Zealand

Latest results from varroa research show building a stock of varroa-tolerant bees is possible
http://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/press/210802bee.htm

***********************

Canada 2004

Manitoba Project for Varroa Tolerant Bees
 
The Manitoba Queen Breeders’ Association is entering its fourth year of work with an ultimate goal of finding varroa tolerant honeybees. Funding has been secured for our fourth summer of research.

http://honeycouncil.ca/users/Folder.asp?FolderID=4753&NewsID=475

*******************************

Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States, 2006
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/pdf/2007/01/m6063.pdf

Abstract - Feral colonies of European honey bees living in the Arnot Forest, a 1651-ha research preserve in New York State, were studied over a three-year period, 2002 to 2005. This population of colonies was previously censused in 1978. A census in 2002 revealed as many colonies as before, even though Varroa destructor was introduced to North America in the intervening years. Most colonies located in fall 2002 were still alive in fall 2005. The Arnot Forest colonies proved to be infested with V. destructor, but their mite populations did not surge to high levels in late summer. To see if Arnot Forest bees can suppress the reproduction rate of mites, colonies of Arnot Forest bees and New World Carniolan bees were inoculated with mites from an apiary and the growth patterns of their mite populations were compared. No difference was found between the two colony types. Evidently, the stable bee-mite relationship in the Arnot Forest reflects adaptations for parasite (mite) avirulence, not host (bee) resistance.

********************

http://www.squidoo.com/bee_breeders_initiative/
Posted January 09, 2007, California

There continues to be promising research in Varroa tolerance and resistance through finding and selecting "survivor" stocks, and also by looking at the biology of both the mite and the bee to understand interactions that reduce the virulence of Varroa in stocks.  An example of the former is the introduction of Russian (Primorski) stock into the U.S., and the latter is the work on Varroa-sensitive hygiene (VSH), previously called suppressed mite reproduction (SMR). Some of these efforts are cataloged at the queen production, breeding and producer lens.







 
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Cindi on February 23, 2007, 10:26:14 am
Finsky, you put a lot of work into some of your posts.  That must be recognized and appreciated.  I want you to know that I do for sure.  I am going to read the links at a later time this morning.  Just to let you know.  Best of days.  Cindi
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 23, 2007, 12:42:58 pm
.
But answer is here

BeeSMaRt QUEENS
Developed by Dr. John Harbo and others at the USDA-ARS Baton Rouge Honey Bee Genetics and Physiology
Laboratory, this queen escapes many of the depredations of varroa mites by suppressing mite reproduction (SMR).
As these queens suppress the reproduction of varroa mites, and consequently reduce the varroa mite populations,
they protect their colonies from varroa mite damage. These queens have been produced by open mating for more
than 3 years. The level of varroa resistance in open-mated Bee SMaRt* queens is intermediate between pure
SMaRt and nonSMaRt (just plain dumb) queens
, but the honey production, colony strength, brood viability and
tracheal mite resistance of Bee SMaRt* queens is superior to inbred or purebred SMaRt queens.
* trademark

ITALIAN QUEENS
Survivor Italians continue to be our most popular strain. This strain has been maintained by introducing queens
from survivor colonies where mite damage has been extensive. The assumption is that these have characteristics to
enable them to withstand damage caused by mites.

http://www.draperbee.com/info/2007_Bee_Prices.pdf

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 23, 2007, 12:54:36 pm
http://leg2.state.va.us/DLS/H&SDocs.NSF/682def7a6a969fbf85256ec100529ebd/ea9c92e12f2ff5938525714f004be9a4?OpenDocument

Document Summary - Report Published -

Senate Document No. 20
PUBLICATION YEAR 2006
View PDF Version*

Document Title
Study of the Plight of Virginia's Beekeepers

 Author
Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services

 
Enabling Authority
SJR 38 (2006)

 
Executive Summary
Senate Joint Resolution Number 38 of the 2006 General Assembly requested the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services (VDACS) to study the plight of Virginia’s beekeepers and outline possible remedies to the problems identified by the study. The resolution also requested the Department to examine the regulation of honey production by small beekeeping operations.

The Commissioner of Agriculture and Consumer Services formed a Work Group to conduct the study. The work group consisted of beekeepers, farmers, and nursery and retail representatives, as well as specialists from the University of Mary Washington, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Virginia State University, and Virginia Cooperative Extension. The work group administered a comprehensive survey to beekeepers and another to farmers in the Commonwealth, and conducted a listening session. During the listening session, experts made presentations on the issues identified by the surveys. A public comment period followed the listening session to provide individuals and groups an opportunity to share their concerns regarding beekeeping, pollination, and honey production. (The work group was assisted by staff in VDACS.)

Key Findings

After reviewing the surveys and listening session presentations the Beekeeper Study Work Group found that:

1. There is complete agreement that honey bees are crucial to the success of agriculture and the health of the environment. Pollination by honey bees increases crop production and quality, thus enhancing producer revenue.

2. The number of honey bee hives maintained by beekeepers in Virginia has decreased by more than 50% since the mid-1980’s.

The feral, or wild, honey bee nests nearly disappeared in 1996 and have only recently begun to reappear in some limited areas.
................... This parasitic mite transmits diseases, reduces honey bee productivity, and is the major contributing factor to the annual 31% mortality rate of honey bee hives in Virginia, up from less than 8% before the introduction of honey bee mites into the state.



Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 24, 2007, 04:49:50 am

.
Quick collapses of hives in New Zealand

In NZ beehives have collapsed in few weeks for varroa. The reason is that there much wild honeybees colonies in nature, Those have weakened and strong nursed hives have robbeb them. Robbers  get huge miteload with them and hive will suddenly collapse.

There was a plan that Zealander draw all hives from one island and then they kill all wild colonies from nature. Now it has revieled too expencive job.

So... even if you have healty hive it may get too much mites from another source. 
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: imabkpr on February 24, 2007, 06:27:41 am
  Sounds like someone is trying to reinvent the wheel.   Charlie
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: BEE C on February 24, 2007, 06:58:30 am
Those are really great articles Finsky! Thanks, and keep them coming!
 
I am totally surprised to find my hives both made it through the first year so well.  I have a neighbour with hives dying from no treatment for mites and have been worried about our overlap in forage area (five miles approx between us).  Thanks to proper use of formic acid, oxalic acid, screened bottom boards, and being able to requeen one hive with a swarm combination, even though my mite levels got quite high somehow i or the bees knocked them down at just the right times.
 
My mentor breeds his own bees and I took a course in queen rearing from him.  The importance of selecting stock was something I didn't quite comprehend beyond the practical science/mechanics of it this year.  The more I comprehend the threats to bees survival, the more the importance of queen breeding grows in my mind.  Selecting my own stock is something I want to become skillful at doing.  My mentor stresses the importance of raising your own locally adapted stock, and breeds his own bees. 

 These articles really drive home the importance of breeding, but also of local stock selection, there are so many things we can do for our bees to help them, and good stock selection should be integral to any healthy apiary, with the knowledge its practically one of the cheapest ways to improve bees health and survival.  Beyond all the 'tricks' or quasi science out there on how to keep bees, queen breeding and stock selection are skills i want to try to grasp/focus on this year.  Thanks for taking the time to pass on good information for beginners its helped! :)
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 24, 2007, 07:11:40 am
  My mentor stresses the importance of raising your own locally adapted stock, and breeds his own bees. 


The most important in local bees is that they are sensitive local seasons. They start at right time brooding and stop it in time  before autumn. Brooding brake is very essential in you climate. This is very meaningfull to the health of wintering bees. If they have feeded brood, thay are not good winterers.

They raise own stock is a trap for hobbiest. When you select mother queen from 10 hives it is very different when professional choose it from 500 hives.


Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 24, 2007, 07:39:12 am
.

Genes from Africa to Sweden

16 years ago .........Erik Örterlund Sweden 1991: The beekeeping world is shouting for a Varroa-resistant bee.  And the search is going on.  There are good reports in this respect.  We do know that Apis cerana can handle the mite.  We also know that there are Apis mellifera strains that can live together with Varroa jacobsoni

http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/artcl/EOABJ91en.html

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Cindi on February 25, 2007, 01:51:16 am
Steve, I didn't realize that your "neighbour" with the bees lived so far away.  I bet that your bees don't travel even half way to her house and hers probably don't have the strength to travel half way to yours.  But there is still wild bees, gotta always keep that in mind.  If there is enough nourishment, bees really like to forage within 300 feet or so of their homes.  So, plant nourishment like there was no tomorrow.  I will be giving you more seed of EXCELLENT bee forage than you could possibly find places to plant. LOL.

I see that the phacelia, bachelor's buttons, and California poppy are all starting to germinate in a big way.  These are the seeds that fell from the plants last year.  I haven't seen the borage yet, but that will be coming when it is slightly warmer.  Between mother nature, dogs, people, and many other factors, these seeds are spread everywhere.  In a few weeks times I will be sowing more seed of these same seedlings that are presently coming to life.  I will make continuous sowings of seed every few weeks over the next couple of months.  This ensures that there is a continuous growth of forage, providing nectar and pollen, all the way to the frost kill.

That is one of the nice things about annuals.  Many self-seed and once you have these intial plants, they are yours forever.  Spring does get rather busy.

I sent my seed order off to Stokes today.  There are many plants, food and flower, that I will be starting in my greenhouse to get a good head start on the season.  It is heated and I have a lighting system that allows for the more delicate plants that require about 12-15 hours of strong light to get off to a great start.

I am dabbling in growing a few unusual plants (some biennial, some annual) this year.  Just for the fun of it.  Lion's ear is one and I can't wait to see how it grows and performs.  Best of days.  Cindi
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: BEE C on February 25, 2007, 05:22:09 am
Cindi,
Lions ear? I planted some lambs ear.   :-D Borage is quite nice I've heard.... ;) ;) ;)  I know this spring is going to be a busy one!  Can't wait to swap the seeds, good to know there is a bit of a buffer...i'm still going to experiment a little with drone brood.  I've read a bit on it now, and am feeling a bit more secure experimenting with different techniques like that...essential oils also interest me, but more reading to do.  I have a whack of links I downloaded from finsky's and michael Bush's posts so much to learn...going to be a good year.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Cindi on February 25, 2007, 10:45:20 am
Leonotis nepetifolia, lion's ear, devil's pincushion.

Google it.  You will see it is a very interesting plant.  The lamb's ear is pretty too, I love the colour of the foliage.

Yup, spring will be beautiful.

Borage, up close and personal

(http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1314/bragejuly136smallye5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Phacelia, with a little borage flower poking its flower up behinid.

(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2557/phaceliaboragesmallua7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

A view of one of the gardens for the bees from my sister's yard.

(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9478/ninaviewea4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Enjoy the pics.  Awesome best of days.  Cindi
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Understudy on February 25, 2007, 11:00:05 am
Cindi,

If you think I am going to show my wife those pics you are nuts. Like I need another project to do.

I can hear it now. I want another raised bed like hers.

*sigh*

Someone take Cindi's camera away from her.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Cindi on February 25, 2007, 11:11:18 am
Brendhan, nope, show her the pictures and "just do it."  Make her more gardens, she will love you to pieces.  If you are like my husband, you love nothing more than to do things that please your wife, and if it is gardens, go for it.  Brownie points are great.  Best of best days.  Cindi
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: BEE C on February 26, 2007, 05:56:28 am
Cindi,
Borage is awesome.  Nice pics.  I have been looking for borage seeds...could I get some from you when we swap out seeds?
Nice garden pics.  Stef planted out lambs ears because we do a lot of negotiation about what plants...i refused to put it in, so she did.  Then I found an article about its nectar and pollen value to bees, and i have to quietly spread it around now.... :-D I still get teased about that. 
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Cindi on February 26, 2007, 09:23:40 pm
Steve, now that is cool about lamb's ear.  I didn't realize that it was a good nectar/pollen plant.  Now are'nt you lucky Stef told you to plant it?  Great day of days.  Cindi
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Michael Bush on February 26, 2007, 10:55:57 pm
What do we know about Varroa tolerant bees?  None of mine had been treated for anything at all from 1975 until 1999.  (I was frightened into using some terramycin in 1974)  Some of mine haven't been treated for anything at all since 2001. Most of mine haven't been treated at all since 2002, and none of them have been treated since 2003.  None of Dee Lusby's have been treated for anything since 1983 when they started regressing to deal with tracheal mites. 

But then before I went to natural cell size, they all died most every year from Varroa from 1998 until 2001.  And in 2001 I DID treat them with Apistan, which had no effect on the Varroa.

And I know the ferals I have were surviving without treatments before I got them and have continued after I got them.

That's about all I know.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 27, 2007, 12:42:46 am
What do we know about Varroa tolerant bees?  None of mine had been treated for anything at all from 1975 until 1999.  (I was frightened into using some terramycin in 1974)  Some of mine haven't been treated for anything at all since 2001. Most of mine haven't been treated at all since 2002, and none of them have been treated since 2003.  None of Dee Lusby's have been treated for anything since 1983 when they started regressing to deal with tracheal mites. 


That is mystery. Every beekeeper in USA know that they have varroa tolerant bees and same time they report that 30% of states beehives die for varroa.

Huge amount of money is used to breed mite tolerant bees. 

Natural beekeepers spread they message about systems and new beepers are losing their hives when they believe that bees can stand mites.

.

We have no mite problem in Finland now. We have just nor too much hives and honey.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 27, 2007, 02:27:33 pm
Finsky,

You have presented a great deal of information and have obviously read most of the articles you reference.
You also seem to have a good handle on what this information means.

So why not tell us how it is that we come about breeding our bees to get mite resistance?

Naturally, 10% of the bee population is mite resistant (studies numbers).

How do we determine if the stocks we have are mite resistant?

And once we do establish which are, how do we use them productively?

MB has cited that he has untreated colonies since 1974 to about 25 years later.
If he captured 10 swarms a year during that time he would yield about 250 colonies.
Of these, 10% would be mite resistant and live, the other 225 colonies would die.
That would result in him having about 25 hives today (that's about right MB right?)

So we could just capture swarms, and hope they make it, and be happy when they do.
But I think Finsky knows there are more direct methods to achieving this, and I'd like him to elaborate.

-Jeff
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 27, 2007, 02:36:36 pm
But I think Finsky knows there are more direct methods to achieving this, and I'd like him to elaborate.

So why not tell us how it is that we come about breeding our bees to get mite resistance?


-Jeff

Jeff, you try to be really smart  :-D   But is does not help me or you.

>>> MB has cited that he has untreated colonies since 1974 to about 25 years later. <<

MB means, I suppose, AFB.  He cannot mean varroa because varroa has not been in USA so long. 

Mite resistant systems MB started 2000, am I right?

MB is mixing all diseases in small cell, but you have in every state beekeeping frofessors. Why they do not konow resolution even if they have whole time to resolve, it.  I have 20 hives and I will not sacrifice not a bit to varroa reserach. I use best practice what others tell me.

1987 my best friend has 60 hives. He had mites and I said to him:"Hi, I give you Perizin mite drug for free. Take it and handle your hives."

He said that he want not bother himself. May be next year. - Yes, he lost 30 hives.

 It is same in this forum. I try to tell how to handle with mites, and you say that I am responsible to world solve varroa problem. You are kidding.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 27, 2007, 02:46:03 pm
[...you try to be really smart..]

But I'm failing??  (ouch!)

Hope you don't mean for smart = jerk, because that's not my intent.

I'd like you to boil down the information and tells us what it means and how we can make this work.
I hope I am not presuming you know when you don't, I don't mean to embarass you.
If you don't know, PM me and let me know and we talk this out for the benefit of all.

-Jeff
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Jerrymac on February 27, 2007, 02:55:26 pm
We have no mite problem in Finland now.

I want to know why you still treat for mites if you don't have a mite problem.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 27, 2007, 03:02:42 pm
We have no mite problem in Finland now.

I want to know why you still treat for mites if you don't have a mite problem.

We have solved it now with formic acid, thymol and oxalic acid. After that we have no problem because we don't trust good luck.

NWIN. even if you are 33 years, I think that you are adult. 
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 27, 2007, 03:54:05 pm
[We have solved it now with formic acid, thymol and oxalic acid. ]

What you are telling me is that your varroa problem is solved with various chemicals, not mite resistance.

The point that I am trying to get you to bring out is that these chemicals are not necessary.
The bees do have a genetic resistance and that can be tested for and bred into our own lines.
This would avoid the costly purchasing of bees and potentially damaging shipping of queens.

You seem to be side-tracked as if you are being attacked, but that is not the case.
I am trying to respect your knowledge and let you tell everyone what you know.

This is becoming more combative than productive, so I will quit trying to get you tell us.

There are two types of resistance.
There is SMR (or smart bees as finsky referenced) and hygienic bees.
The difference between the two is genetics.

Hygienics is a recessive trait, it means that both mother and father must carry the trait.
Because both must have the trait, it is easy to loose the trait.
But since 1 in 10 bees generally carry the trait, its easy to find it again too.
There are 7 traits tied to hygienics, some to uncapping, some to grooming instincts.
So we as beekeepers can test for hygienics and saturate out yards with them.
This increases the likelihood of Hy-Queen and Hy-Drone matings.

Hygienics can be field tested in two ways.
There is the pin prick method, where you take capped brood and sewing needle and poke through the capping into the larvae killing it. You do this on 10 or 20 adjacent cells, place back in the colony and in 48 hours remove and count the cells cleaned out.  A dot of paint over the set of cells help identify which set you used.
The second method required taking a chunk of brood out (like a cut-comb cutter) and freezing it for 24 hours to kill, but not moosh the brood. More than 24 hours will over freezing will cause false hygienic removal, so be careful. The chunk is reinserted and 48 hours is allowed to pass again.  Then the cells removed are counted.
In either method, ideally you want more than 80% removal in 48 hours.
Queens not demonstrating this should be culled, and requeened with stocks that do demonstrate it.


SMR is an additive trait, which means that if mother and father carry the trait, the stronger the SMR characteristic.
Also, the more grandparents that had the trait, the more likely it is passed on (up to 5 trait locations).
I like the anology of a parking lot with 5 spaces. Once 5 are used, theres no more additive advantage.
Lets say a queen with 5 points is mated with a non-smr drone, then the offspring drop to 4 points.
As you can see, it may take several non-smr mating to loose SMR.
But its not as naturally occuring in our italian stocks as hygienics, and so it may not ever be regained in open matings.
This means that you will likely need to re-purchase SMR stocks after a few years, or saturate the drone mating areas with your SMR drones.

Sue Colby of (soon UC Davis) Ohio State University, Marla Spivak or Unv. Minn and Glenn Apiaries in California, have great information about the topic.  Glenn Apiaries even uses Medel genetic diagrams to explain the matings and cross matings. I would strongly suggest reading all of these if you want a good understanding of where genetics are today, and what to expect in the future.

Some folks point you to books and articles and tell you to go read.
I'm giving you the facts and the tools to do it.

This is what I was talking about Finski

-Jeff
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 27, 2007, 04:11:23 pm
[
What you are telling me is that your varroa problem is solved with various chemicals, not mite resistance.

That is the big message. Right!

Quote
The point that I am trying to get you to bring out is that these chemicals are not necessary.

And your referencies are........

Quote
The bees do have a genetic resistance and that can be tested for and bred into our own lines.

Yes, I have studied genetics in university 5 years and know a little bit genetics.

Quote

There are two types of resistance.
There is SMR (or smart bees as finsky referenced) and hygienic bees.
The difference between the two is genetics.

Hygienics is a recessive trait, it means that both mother and father must carry the trait.
Because both must have the trait, it is easy to loose the trait.
But since 1 in 10 bees generally carry the trait, its easy to find it again too.
There are 7 traits tied to hygienics, some to uncapping, some to grooming instincts.
So we as beekeepers can test for hygienics and saturate out yards with them.
This increases the likelihood of Hy-Queen and Hy-Drone matings.

Hygienics can be field tested in two ways.
There is the pin prick method, where you take capped brood and sewing needle and poke through the capping into the larvae killing it. You do this on 10 or 20 adjacent cells, place back in the colony and in 48 hours remove and count the cells cleaned out.  A dot of paint over the set of cells help identify which set you used.
The second method required taking a chunk of brood out (like a cut-comb cutter) and freezing it for 24 hours to kill, but not moosh the brood. More than 24 hours will over freezing will cause false hygienic removal, so be careful. The chunk is reinserted and 48 hours is allowed to pass again.  Then the cells removed are counted.
In either method, ideally you want more than 80% removal in 48 hours.
Queens not demonstrating this should be culled, and requeened with stocks that do demonstrate it.

Yes, I konow allmost all that

Quote
Sue Colby of (soon UC Davis) Ohio State University, Marla Spivak or Unv. Minn and Glenn Apiaries in California, have great information about the topic.  Glenn Apiaries even uses Medel genetic diagrams to explain the matings and cross matings. I would strongly suggest reading all of these if you want a good understanding of where genetics are today, and what to expect in the future. [/b]

Yes, we not talking on same level adult to adult

Quote
This is what I was talking about Finski


Jeff, I cannot understand what are you talking.

It is two different sthings
1) Breeding, breeding plans
2) Achieved breeding results

You are mixing them. And if you know genetics, it is not first year beekepers' job.

How much you have studied biology and genetics? With whom I have honour to talk?

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 27, 2007, 04:22:03 pm
[Yes, I konow allmost all that]

Then share it with the group.

[And your referencies are....]

Ask anyone that is following the protocols described.

[Jeff, I cannot understand what are you talking. It is two different sthings 1) Breeding, breeding plans 2) Achieved breeding results ]

The are complementary topics that depend on each other for sucess.

[...we not talking on same level adult to adult.]

You're right, I'm trying to talk to you beekeeper to beekeeper and you're trying to make it something else.
Stop being a spaz and work with me here.

[How much you have studied biology and genetics? With whom I have honour to talk?]

When it matters, I read.
You have the honour of speaking with a fellow beekeeper that is trying to help you suceed.

-Jeff
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 27, 2007, 04:48:28 pm
NW, I cannot understand what is you meaning?

I have studied so much biology that I appreciate highly the work which is going on the field of beebreeding. During my beekeeping years yields per hive has rised 3-4 fold with breeding.

What I am talking here is that even if a lot of work have done in USA, Germany and in many other countries, there is no such a bee that you may promise to beginner "dont worry about mites. Here is the bee which handle varroa".

When some one have many years dealed with varroa, he has knowledge with whom he is playing.

In this forum we can read that beginners loose their hives, hives are so small that they do not survive over winter so that beekeeper get honey next summer. I have seen plenty of pictures that hives are as small as package hives a year before.

Quote
You have the honour of speaking with a fellow beekeeper that is trying to help you suceed.

in what meaning? Where I need help?  I am not breeding varroa tolerant bees.

To read and understand are different things.




Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 27, 2007, 06:30:43 pm
[During my beekeeping years yields per hive has rised 3-4 fold with breeding.]

Is this thread about honey yields or varroa tolerance?
Honey production has no relavence in this topic.

[...there is no such a bee that you may promise to beginner "dont worry about mites. Here is the bee which handle varroa".]

I have made no such promise.
There will probably never will be a variety of bees that you will not have to worry about varroa.
They are a parasite and they travel from hive to hive, so until they are irradicated, they'll be here.
The big picture is "are there varieties of bees that survive better than others at higher mite loads?"
The answer is yes there is.
And we the common beekeeper can breed for those traits instead of buying non-acclimated bees from other latitudes that easily die or are superceded.
You presume a promise that was never made.

[...we can read that beginners loose their hives.]

We all loose hives regardless of level of experience.
Losses are not always management, losses are not always genetics, losses are not always environment.
Hive loss can be a good thing, it culls the sick and weak. 
And it makes us appreciate the healthy.
What I am proposing has no impact on how long anyone has been beekeeping.
You rear better mite resistant queens if you are a 1st year beekeeper or 20 year beekeeper.
Your corrolation to a beginner has no relavence in this topic.

[I have seen plenty of pictures that hives are as small as package hives a year before.]

I agree.  In fact most cold-climate beekeepers that rear queens agree with that statement.
In fact, there seems to be a shift to wintering nucs and baby nucs for earlier spring queens.
But again, size really doesn't have much relavence on getting bees to be mite tolerant.

[Where I need help?]

You began this topic to discuss mite tolerant bees, and you did a really great job on posting relavent documents.  Apparently you haven't read your own documents, or don't understand what they mean.  You drifted off on talking about you need to chemcially treat.  That's not rearing mite tolerant bees, that's the opposite. But maybe that's what you meant, to try to defunct topic? You haven't provided any documentation or proof from your own yards that mite tolerance selection and breeding isn't effective.  And maybe if it's not effective for you, maybe you're not doing it correctly to the protocols?

You start calling the sky blue, I agree and ask you tell us why its blue, and you turn 180 degrees and start telling us its red. I'm not sure what to think you believe, I just know I have an opinion and I have a lot of people and studies that have proven my ideas are on track. You can run off on whatever tangant you want, but I'm discussing the the topic posted and I'm giving people good information on how to do it.

If you want to pull the experience card, with 5 years doing this and that, then at least make it apply to the topic.  And if you are going endorse one idea or the other, try to stick with it so you don't confuse the holy begeezits out of everyone. I'm trying to help the cause here and you're just muttling everything into confusion. Pick a side and please stick to it. I understand, and now you're even confusing me.

-Jeff

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Jerrymac on February 27, 2007, 07:00:48 pm
[And your referencies are....]
Ask anyone that is following the protocols described.

Here is the thing Jeff. Finsky isn't going to listen to anything that hasn't been researched and published in some scientific magazine. It doesn't matter if one thousand people on this forum kept bees for 45 years with no treatment. If a scientist didn't check it out then it don't work. That is all you will get from Finsky. So you need to find those references.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: newbee101 on February 27, 2007, 07:08:25 pm
Hi Finsky, How are you today?  :roll:
Questions for you...
Did you lose any hives last winter or this winter?
Do you use solid bottom boards or screened bottom boards?
Do you make splits from survivor colonies or do you buy packages?
How many hives do you have?
Thank You...that is all.....for now.... :-D
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 27, 2007, 07:14:44 pm
[So you need to find those references.]

I don't think Steve Taber, Marla Spivak, or Sue Colby care to jump in on this topic.
I think they are too busying doing rather than crying it doesn't work.

Which is exactly what I plan on doing too.

I'd really like to hear about winter losts, IPM systems, and all these chemicals that are being used.

Hey, anyone have any good studies about screened bottom boards, maybe they don't work either?

-Jeff

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Kev on February 27, 2007, 08:00:21 pm

If a scientist didn't check it out then it don't work.

I don't really think that's Finsky's point. (Although both of these guys are coming on a little strong.)

Working to selectively breed mite resistance into bees is a great idea. I also think that good scientific research into this area is crucial. Why conduct rigorous scientific research? Because there are lots of variables in raising bees. What works for one beekeeper won't for another. The point of good scientific research is to find methods for dealing with varroa and then to determine how effective they are.

Take flu vaccine as a non-bee example. It's only 80% effective in the best of cases. We know that, and that's an important calculation when considering how to protect vulnerable people like nursing home residents.

Maybe bee breeders will be able over successive generations to develop a mite-resistant bee. However, with good research into this, we could know much more. Such as, how and when to treat, how the resistant bees compare with regular varieites with respect to production etc.

Our goal should be to develop management plans that include a wide range of strategies for dealing with varroa -- and other bee problems. There isn't a silver bullet, and most likely there won't be one.

Great discussion.

kev
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Michael Bush on February 27, 2007, 10:50:18 pm
>MB means, I suppose, AFB.  He cannot mean varroa because varroa has not been in USA so long. 

I mean everything.  I mean no treatment for anything.  When I say I am/was using no treatments, I mean no Terramycin, no fumidil, no apistan, no menthol, no grease patties, no check mite, no powdered sugar, nothing, nada, zip.  What pests were here at different times is another issue.

You are correct, Varroa was not here in the 1970s.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Cindi on February 28, 2007, 12:53:36 am
My two cents, oh brother!!!!  Cindi
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 01:04:47 am


Hey, anyone have any good studies about screened bottom boards, maybe they don't work either?


What is matter with yuo jeff?

If you mean screened bottom to deminish mites, it dos not work. Like Canadian says in reseach: "Nothing good to mention".
Screened bottom influence have studied in many countries that no meaning for mite population.


If you mean creened bottom overoall, it is good for those who need it.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 01:09:07 am
I mean everything. 


That goes over my understanding! And still US beekeeping is in trouble?

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 01:44:30 am
.
Here is one excamble. Find yourself more ....

Anti-Varroa Screened Bottom Board
http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf

The anti-varroa screened bottom board was tested on a large scale during the
beekeeping seasons of 2000 and 2001 in the l’Estrie region of Quebec. Used with its
bottom closed by a sampling drawer, this bottom board succeeded in reducing, on
average, by 37% the varroa populations of the colonies during the season of 2001
. The
global results obtained however were not statistically significant except for certain
sampled sub groups where the experiment conditions were more homogeneous. These
results reinforce the conclusions drawn from two recent studies performed in the United
States that were also statistically non significant. A 14 months comparison by T.C
Webster posterior to our work showed a 70% highly significant reduction of the varroa
population (17) with the screened bottom. The performance of the bottom board varied
according to the apiary sites and it is possible that certain environmental factors affected
its efficiency. More research is necessary to better comprehend this aspect. The antivarroa
bottom board must never be used with its bottom hole opened as this leads to a
lowering of cluster temperature resulting in ideal conditions for varroa development.
As
confirmed in 2000, this situation not only negated the beneficial effects of the bottom
board, it also resulted in a net increase in the mite infestation rate (29.2% more varroa
mites, non significant) as compared to the control group. The performance of the bottom
board also varied from one colony to another. It was observed that the strength of the
colony in the spring and especially the lineage of the queen were significant factors in
the rate of infestation.

******************

Finsky:
The method to reduce mites from hives must achieve at least 95% loss of mites. Otherwise mites reduce honey yieldIn cold climates mites concentrate in last brood and violate those bees which should be best in winter cluster. Those bees which do not die, they get mite biting and get many troubles..


.

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 02:17:49 am
I would strongly suggest reading all of these if you want a good understanding of where genetics are today, and what to expect in the future.


Mendel laws are now only memory of past in this issue.

Now mapping genome and to identify  genes which are present in varroa tolerant bees are the keys to go on. That is why bees genome has mapped. It cost awfully much. Don't tell me that I should do that  :-X

One point which is allways forgotten is that the mite developes too it's anti-anti-varroa genes. It is simple animal, generations are fast and mutations happens.

Why Mendel is bad to clarify the heredity of bees:

7 genes at one time makes big variations.

Queen mates on average with 16 drones, and this makes very big variation into colony. That is mating idea, to get variation.

When ordinary beekeeper bye "anti varroa queen", it takes not long time when hive has nw queen and influence of genes are vanished in crossings.

Queen try to go far to mate and avoid crossing with it's brothers and own genepool. That is big idea in sexual reproducing.

Mite is not most important factor in beekeeping. You must take care many more things. To some hobby beekeepers mite seems to be more important that be itself or honey yield.

I can see, that USA bee business has forgotten the basic idea in bee breeding: to have locally adapted bee stocks from Florida to Alaska.
Alaska nurses bees just like Florida beekeepers.  Closing the border of Canada helps Canadian beekeepers but still they get their genes from Australia.

It is better to look the whole context how where beekeeping goes. It is not Russian bee or screened bottom question.

By the way, Germany have achieved even better results in searching mite tolerant bee stocks, but this is not beaty contest.

New Zealand started it's own breeding 5-6 years ago but I have not seen any reports how well breeding is going.



Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 04:57:28 am
.
IN EUROPE 2006

Minutes of the 2nd “Eurbee breeding group” meeting,
Bologna 16 and 17 January 2006


.......The common breeding goals are productivity, Varroa tolerance, gentleness/calmness, low swarming tendency. He suggests that the priority for the future are Varroa tolerance and gentleness.........

..........Ralph Büchler presented an overview on the German selection program for Varroa tolerance, which is organised on two levels: the beekeepers carry out routine selection on a large population, according to general criteria (productivity and behavioural characteristics) and tolerance criteria (varroa infestation during the season and hygienic behaviour);

conclusions........there was recognition of the fact that standardization of methods (such as evaluation of hygienic behaviour, scoring system, microsatellite analysis) will take time to achieve. The fact that several countries are currently adopting the same method for the evaluation of breeding values shows that steps in this direction are being taken.
.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 05:02:25 am
.
BRASILIA AFRICANIZED BEES 2006

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1519-566X2006000300002&script=sci_arttext

ABSTRACT

Varroosis, a disease caused by the mite Varroa destructor Anderson and Treuman has killed hundreds of thousands of Apis mellifera L. colonies in various parts of the world. Nevertheless, the damage caused by this mite varies with the type of bee and climate conditions. Varroa causes little damage to Africanized bee colonies in Brazil, as the infestation rates are relatively stable and low. We evaluated the hygienic behavior (uncapping and removal of brood) of highly hygienic Africanized bees using combs with worker brood cells infested (naturally) and no infested with V. destructor. The daily uncapping rate, measured in eight colonies during six days, was 3.5 fold higher in the combs infested with varroa compared to no infested combs. The results show that the Africanized bees are able to recognise and remove brood cells naturally infested with V. destructor what is an important mechanism for tolerance against varroa.

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 05:18:54 am
.

SWITZERLAND   - NEBRASCA 2006 .........does information goes.???....Missing flight tickets...

http://www.alp.admin.ch/themen/00502/00515/00519/index.html?lang=en

Switzerland

Oxalic acid is extremely effective for the control of Varroa in brood free bee colonies. When applied properly, the three forms of application, spraying, trickling and vaporizing, have an efficacy of more than 95 %. A three-year study showed that the natural content of oxalic acid in spring honey is not increased. Thus, no residue problems are to be expected. The three treatments have shown a good bee tolerability and thus do not significantly differ in this respect from the untreated control. The examination of Gympp and his staff from the Institute for Occupational- and Social Medicine
 
Trickling of oxalic acidof the University of Tübingen has shown that the health of the beekeepers is not endangered during spraying and vaporizing if the recommended protective measures are followed.

University of Nebraska–Lincoln120th Annual ReportJuly 1, 2005 to June 30, 2006I

Entomologists studying oxalic acid for control of varroa mites in bee colonies

http://ard.unl.edu/annreport/ARD%202007%20Annual%20Report.pdf


IANR entomologists are studying a natural product to reduce mite populations in bee colonies. Oxalic acid is a chemical found in plants, such as rhubarb, turnips and broccoli,which makes the vegetation nonpalatable to insects. Using oxalic acid to treat varroa mites could help struggling beekeepers keep their hives healthy and stay economically profitable.

Oxalic acid eventually will become a low-cost, effective and sustainable way to deal with the mite parasite. Entomologists also will teach beekeepers how to use the chemical


*********

In our series: better late than never....



Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Michael Bush on February 28, 2007, 07:57:05 am
>And still US beekeeping is in trouble?

Mine isn't.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Kirk-o on February 28, 2007, 09:57:45 am
Niether is Dee Lusby's and mine are doing better Small Cell all the way no Treatments of any Kind Nada Dude
kirko
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 10:56:25 am
.
That is weird system: My hives are all right and others are dying.   Small cell-natural cells,  it is very different question than grooming and hygienic behaviour.

Many have lost tens of hives with small cells. Wild hives in natural cells die over 90% all over the world.

Idea of small cells have know as long as mites has been in USA and mite does more harm than ever.

When you go to doctor, doctor does not say that you will be allright because your nabour is allright and your sister is allright.

Whole these discussions are out of mind because few hive owners have great solution to mite problem but professionals have not. As New Zealanders' report that Arizona mite resistant bees have not reaseached and we do not know why they resist mites.

....But his is circle. No one can resolve thsi simple question. How some  manage with any mite treatments?
.

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 28, 2007, 11:16:59 am
[Now mapping genome and to identify  genes which are present in varroa tolerant bees are the keys to go on. ]

I was trying to keep this on a beginner's level so that it applies to everyone.
I did not want to make this a university scientific research project that no one could contribute. 
Then this thread become worthless, thanks you're well on the way of driving it that way.

[Oxalic acid is extremely effective for the control of Varroa in brood free bee colonies.]

I try not to run broodless, as it defeats the purpose of raising bees.
And besides, if my bees are broodless, there isn't anywhere for the varroa to lay eggs.
And that break in the brood cycle is an effective enough varroa control.
Chemicals aren't necessary.

[Using oxalic acid to treat varroa mites could help struggling beekeepers keep their hives healthy and stay economically profitable.]

Yeah, and I've heard the horror stories of those that have mis-mixed a batch and killed most if not all of there hives (8 and 10 at a time) that sounds like a great solution. Might as well run gasoline over them and take a match to the aftermath. I still don't get it, are you promoting a genetic solution are or chemical, 'cause you still seem to be twisting them up, even despite a request not to.

[...7 genes at one time makes big variations.]

Well no kidding, but we're not doing DNA testing. or gene mapping.
I'm trying to give average people a practical way to evaluate their bees.

You seem to like the idea of making this harder than it is, like you need to demonstrate you have some superior knowledge.  We're all beekeepers, there's nothing to prove. Overwhelming people with documentation without explaination isn't help, its intimidation, and that's no help in a forum like this. That is why I explained what the documents meant.

[The antivarroa bottom board must never be used with its bottom hole opened as this leads to a
lowering of cluster temperature resulting in ideal conditions for varroa development.]

I have never heard that lower cluster temps make better varroa conditions, that really doesn't add up.
When temps lower, bees diminish brood laying, varroa lay in brood area, with less brood, conditions become less favorable. Mechanically what you say does not make sense.

Like the movie JFK, pay the right scientists enough money and they can prove that an elephant can hang  off a cliff by its tail clinging to a daisy, but common sense tells you this is probable.

I'm not going to maintain a worthless exchange where someone cites slanted studies, that are defunct by thousands of beekeepers that are doing, using, and seeing results. That's a worthless waste of time.

If absolutley nothing else, SBB serve as a great method to monitor mite fall to determine the level of infection. There's no challange to that.

-Jeff
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 11:24:34 am
.
You know jeff, if we talk on expert level, it is so easy to find out if another is speaking more that he knows. Too many lines revieles in your speak that we cannot talk on expert level.   And these are not beginners' level stories.

I try not to run broodless, as it defeats the purpose of raising bees.
And besides, if my bees are broodless, there isn't anywhere for the varroa to lay eggs.


Jeff, do you have bees? How many hives and how many years?

SBB serve as a great method to monitor mite fall to determine the level of infection. There's no challange to that.

I have never used that. I just kill mites directly.  Monitoring means that you may drop one handling off if your mite load is small.  Such is life.

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Jerrymac on February 28, 2007, 11:30:36 am
Many have lost tens of hives with small cells.

You were asked who these people are that lost these hives. How were the doing small cell. How long did they try it. Small cell/natural cell is a little more than just throwing in some small cell foundation and letting it go. There is some work involved until you get the bees fully regressed. 

Wild hives in natural cells die over 90% all over the world.

As I have asked before. If all those wild bees were lost then why is it so many of us are going out and getting them? As I mentioned I know off the top of my head where 10 feral colonies are right now. No wait... Now that I am thinking about it make that 12.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 11:37:41 am

As I have asked before. If all those wild bees were lost then why is it so many of us are going out and getting them? As I mentioned I know off the top of my head where 10 feral colonies are right now. No wait... Now that I am thinking about it make that 12.

You are able to read reports from internet. They are not mine.

Varroa kills the hive after 4 years contamination. It depends what kind of load they have. All the time swarms escape from beekeepers.

I know you jerry, keep cool.

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Jerrymac on February 28, 2007, 11:53:09 am
You are able to read reports from internet. They are not mine.

Ahh yes, the reports. I am sure that the writers of those reports walked over every acre of ground before and after the mites came, and they know exactly which colonies died from the mites and which died from other causes. That is the problem with me Finsky, I believe what I see before I believe what some know-it-all scientist said.

This has already been discussed on these forums before...... So you believe what is written on paper and I'll believe what I see with my own eyes.

You don't have stocks in the chemical industry do you?
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 01:33:22 pm

This has already been discussed on these forums before...... So you believe what is written on paper and I'll believe what I see with my own eyes.


Yes, that discussion is very funny. It is pleasure always to discus with people who hate learning and education.

It is  a skill to learn from other people..... You need too basic knowledge to understand what they are saying. That is why it is hard to read some reports.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Understudy on February 28, 2007, 01:47:59 pm
Books gives us intellegence, experience gives us wisdom. The combination of the two gives us the ablity to adapt, improvise, and overcome.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Jerrymac on February 28, 2007, 01:49:47 pm
It is  a skill to learn from other people.....

Must be
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 28, 2007, 02:40:44 pm
[You need too basic knowledge to understand what they are saying.] -Finksy

Jerrymac-
You are not just "not an expert" but now you are an "idiot" too?
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Jerrymac on February 28, 2007, 02:42:42 pm
You are not just "not an expert" but now you are an "idiot" too?

Hey I'm not an idiot. I'm a redneck.  :-D
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 28, 2007, 02:57:25 pm
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6047/bbqchainshm5.th.jpg) (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbqchainshm5.jpg)

You might be a redneck if you Barbcue Grill has SNOW CHAINS !!!
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 28, 2007, 03:15:11 pm
I'm on to comedy.

Talking with Finsky like breaking rocks with head.
Me dizzy from crazy talk.
Maybe when head not hurt, me try again.

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: beemaster on February 28, 2007, 03:15:34 pm
Gonna keep it short guys...

First Finsky, saying "Yes, that discussion is very funny. It is pleasure always to discuss with people who hate learning and education." INSULTS MANY (if not all of the MEMBERS - don't do this again.

For every person YOU assume can't follow your post, dozens are.

Secondly, Don't egg on other members by calling them on their education or experience - if you need to drop to a level of "what you call EQUAL EDUCATION" then you no longer are serving as mentor or guidance to members, you bully them. Bullying will not happen Finsky, I promise you that.

Lastly, You education and experience brings a METHOD of beekeeping to the table - one that works for you. For a guy without mite issues, you seem to have lots to say. Anyone Finsky can quote anyone else until they are blue in the face, it doesn't make you smarter, it just proves you know how to use a search engine and cut and paste.

P.S. Finsky - since mite issues DON'T concern you - I think it a bit of a stretch telling people plagued with this problem how poorly we handle it. 

-------------------

Jeff - I ask basically the same things of you, only "refrain" from falling into the Finsky Mind Trap - he can set anyone up to come off as being the bad guy - this comes from banging your head against his brick-wall for hours at the keyboard.

No one sees you or him as pushing any boundaries, I'd rather have open exchange that fuels a topic rather than one that starts a woods-fire, but I have now received 4 letters concerning this post and BOTH OF YOU need to argue the topic, NOT each other. I hope that is clear guys, I've seen the words IDIOTS and STUPID carefully placed as to be NOT directly accusative, but no one here is stupid. Stick to your guns, but put the bullets away.

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 03:29:34 pm
Gonna keep it short guys...

First Finsky, saying "Yes, that discussion is very funny. It is pleasure always to discuss with people who hate learning and education." INSULTS MANY (if not all of the MEMBERS - don't do this again.

Act was not so bad as meaning.

Quote

For every person YOU assume can't follow your post, dozens are.

I can't help them

Quote
Secondly, Don't egg on other members by calling them on their education or experience - if you need to drop to a level of "what you call EQUAL EDUCATION" then you no longer are serving as mentor or guidance to members, you bully them. Bullying will not happen Finsky, I promise you that.

Jerrymac start to teach me. I just tryied to give back. I hope that he understood. He is not to teach me what I read and learn. "We have discussed" Hih hih

Quote
Lastly, You education and experience brings a METHOD of beekeeping to the table - one that works for you. For a guy without mite issues, you seem to have lots to say. Anyone Finsky can quote anyone else until they are blue in the face, it doesn't make you smarter, it just proves you know how to use a search engine and cut and paste.

Aha, my experience and knowledge is just worth cut and paste . Very few has this talent, I see . It is easier to invent all expalantions from hat.

-  And you have ability to denounce it :-D  That is smart said.

.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 28, 2007, 03:41:27 pm
Jeff shoots rubber bands at Finski....

Great see what you did, now Dad's MAD!

Its all your fault we can't play together anymore.

[what color spray paint looks good on finsky brick-wall??] :evil:

Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on February 28, 2007, 03:57:59 pm
Jeff shoots rubber bands at Finski....


You have better to check your medication jeff.  8-)





Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: NWIN Beekeeper on February 28, 2007, 05:35:28 pm
Great first you medicate bees and now you want to medicate people?

Whatch thinking?
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: newbee101 on February 28, 2007, 06:34:44 pm
I am still waiting for him to answer this post.    :jail:
Quote
Hi Finsky, How are you today?
Questions for you...
Did you lose any hives last winter or this winter?
Do you use solid bottom boards or screened bottom boards?
Do you make splits from survivor colonies or do you buy packages?
How many hives do you have?
Thank You...that is all.....for now....
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Understudy on February 28, 2007, 06:53:24 pm
Love the new avatar Finsky.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Zoot on February 28, 2007, 11:29:17 pm
NWIN,

It's possible that Finsky has simply bought into that fundamental American philosophy: I call it the 3 M's (medicate, medicate, medicate); Got the flu? Medicate. Kid acting a bit energetically in school? Medicate. Bees have mites? Medicate (excluding portions of present company of course). My personal favorite: Someone sends an envelope with some anthrax dust to Washington? Everyone (millions) within a thousand miles medicate.

Finsky - the new avatar's great. You're a scrapper that's for sure.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on March 01, 2007, 12:16:20 am
.
Avaratar is great :-D I really like it.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Zoot on March 01, 2007, 12:55:19 am
Oh dear. I hope this isn't the "new" Finsky; banal one-liners devoid of wit. I meant no disrespect with my last...was merely being my usual cynical self. Your posts are actually quite famous in our house, valued for their solid advice as well as their spirit. You are obviously a master at what you do.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on March 01, 2007, 02:23:43 am
I am still waiting for him to answer this post.    :jail:
Quote
Hi Finsky, How are you today?
Questions for you...
Did you lose any hives last winter or this winter?
Do you use solid bottom boards or screened bottom boards?
Do you make splits from survivor colonies or do you buy packages?
How many hives do you have?
Thank You...that is all.....for now....


Our winter is turning to spring. Cleansing flight will happen during 2 weeks. Temperature is now over freezing point after long frost period.

I took covers off and all hives are alive. I have 29 hives and 23 are strong in 2 boxes. 6 are in one boxe but occupy allmost whole box.

One hive has bad nosema and I am going to kill it. I have too many hives.

Last winter I had 24 hives and all were alive in spring. Winterings is problem at all. Nosema makes some harm often.

I have every year 20% extra hives and I am not sad if som hive will perish. Nosema spoils often queen or two.

I have only solid bottoms. After cleansing flight I put thermocabel on bottoms for spring build up.3 winters ago I tried screened bottom in 6 hves. One died lack of food and 2 was very near. I stopped that system. Hives consumed over 50% too much food.

Last summer 2-box wintered hives got 80 pound/hive  early yield in June. 1-box wintered have not capacity to forage surpluss untill in July.  That is why I keep strong hives and I want early build up. Dandelion honey is very tasty and it is valuble when I mix it with canola honey.

I try to select my hives non swarmy, calm and pollen gathering. It needs work every summer. Nothing comes for free.

***********
Last summer I met very few mites, perhaps 10-20 in drone cells but in oxalic handling all hive dropped hundreds of mites on bottom. But not thousands.

So it goes with rountine. Nice time with you guys. Use your own brains and don't trust that nature makes work for you.

Mite is really my friend. It killed all lazy beekeepers' hives here and wild beehives. It is only good  bee blood here now



Soon loading my artillery  again

(http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/Kuva_036.jpg)

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Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: beemaster on March 01, 2007, 06:54:16 am
It's good Finsky has a fan club - he has worn me a bit thin lately, again - but that's Finsky, he is from a combative society of where people strongly debate even the simplest things - as in "was your coffee too strong?". This view of his homeland from Finsky Himself, they love the "tooth and nails" points of argument - thought you'd like a history lesson on Finland.

I do find his last line of how he LIKES MITES because they have killed off all bad beekeepers, a bit sick.

That doesn't sit to well with the millions of lost colonies here who aren't fortunate enough to exodus Finland. I guess the new standard must be who can live long enough to see Varroa or CCD anything else come our way fade into obscurity.

Man is here for a blink of time, the efforts we make are often fruitless, not for not trying, but often because those who say there is no problem lose the funding which might have cured a problem.

Be careful Finsky, you might be moving that car and colony pictured there back in Varroa Country and I can here them now - "THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD!"
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Understudy on March 01, 2007, 07:31:12 am
It's good Finsky has a fan club - he has worn me a bit thin lately, again - but that's Finsky, he is from a combative society of where people strongly debate even the simplest things - as in "was your coffee too strong?". This view of his homeland from Finsky Himself, they love the "tooth and nails" points of argument - thought you'd like a history lesson on Finland.

Even though I am not big fan of chemicals, I am big fan of Finsky. It is nice to see someone who has passion about something. Even though I may disagree with some of his methods I respect his view on them. And they have worked very well for him. He makes quite a bit of money with his bees.

Also the best course I had in college was debate. I firmly believe that it should be a required course but that is a seperate discussion.

What I think is Finsky needs to move from Finland to south Florida that way he can have fun with small hive beetles.  8-)

There is a large Finish community in Lake Worth and yes they all love debate and rhetoric discussions. They don't have thin skins. They aren't politcally correct. They aren't concerned with your feelings because they have thick skins when it comes to disscussions and don't understand why others don't have thick skins. I find it very refreshing.

When it comes to varroa resistant strains of bees, I do not have enough knowledge to make an informed comment. I have been reading the links and articles posted but I am still trying to finish reading the CCD articles and the research on that because I have to be ready for my beekeepers meeting.

Jerrymac pointed something out that Finsky backs up what he says with publications and research. I also wish more people did that. I have a discussion on Apitherapy at my next beekeeper meeting also. The gentleman doing the presentation is a big believer in it. But the medical value of bee stings, propolis , and royal jelly have very little to none of real scientific research. However it has people who believe in it very passionatly. Accupuncture has been around for 2000 years but the medical studies have been mixed on it. However tell that to the nearly 1 billion people who live in China.


Maybe I can send some SHB back with the Finish guests who stay part of the year in Lake Worth.  :evil:

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on March 01, 2007, 07:38:41 am

Be careful Finsky,

I go like old horse my path after my 45 beekeeping years and after my 25 mite years - At last I really need advices   :-P

The secret is to use "best practice which works".  To trye new methods is the most expencive way to go.
To use "own new methods" means that you are late 20 years after others.  Benschmarking is my hit.


Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on March 01, 2007, 07:46:33 am

Also the best course I had in college was debate.

Yes, I am bad looser and I want to keep the last word.
And more, much more than this, I did it my way.

Regrets? I've had a few,
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course -
Each careful step along the byway,
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.


.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Zoot on March 01, 2007, 10:06:06 am
Finsky,

Priceless. Could you maybe send some sort of media attachment of you singing that one? I would treasure it along with my Yogi Yorgenson Christmas recordings.

Understudy,
Your observations of the resident Finn is right on. There is a large Finnish community in Baltimore and my partner has 4 Finnish uncles married into her mother's (Swedish) family. One debates/argues with them at one's own risk; they are ruthlessly straightforward...not for the overly sensitive or those with frail egos. They also possess a keen, dry wit. As you noted, it's very refreshing.

With all due respect, I think John was a bit off the mark (yes, the mite reamrk was a bit weird) - I find my own countrymen to be by far the most combative in debate, with a tendancy to stray into quagmires of minutiae and irrelevancy and a wearying obsession with "sensitivity". Just look at our national preoccupation with TAKING OFFENSE and the need to extort grovelling apologies from the evil perpetrators. It's embarrassing.

Finsky,
Back to business - thanks for finally answering Newbee's questions. Informative as always.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Jerrymac on March 01, 2007, 10:11:41 am
Priceless. Could you maybe send some sort of media attachment of you singing that one? I would treasure it along with my Yogi Yorgenson Christmas recordings.

Zoot,
You do know that is a song first sung ( I think)by Frank Sanatra, and then Elvis did a remake.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on March 01, 2007, 10:17:33 am
Finsky,

Just look at our national preoccupation with TAKING OFFENSE and the need to extort grovelling apologies from the evil perpetrators.

Let's test-load your own national humour  8-)  I have nothing to do with that. I am only a messenger. Don't shoot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMBDFv66oLE&mode=related&search=

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Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Zoot on March 01, 2007, 10:20:20 am
Jerrymac,

You're correct, I had forgotten about Sinatra. Which is odd because it's sort of his hallmark song. Never heard Elvis sing it. Was it in his.."late" period?
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: beemaster on March 01, 2007, 05:13:34 pm
Back to Finsky, cause it seems most people don't understand one vital point. I've gone to bat against dozens of complaints of him as FINSKY or FINMAN for YEARS now - usually people telling him to call his methods, my response has always been in his favor. As it is now.

That doesn't mean when I get 5 PMs in 2 days complaining about something he has said that it SHOULD NOT BE ADDRESSED! Not meaning to play BOSS around here but let's face the fact, the buck stops here and a public warning to chill a bit DOESN'T hurt anyone, maybe it even does some good.

I like Finsky's spirit and gum shun and he handles and criticism quite well. His methods work well for him and I doubt most of us could do as well as he claims with such a short season. But what gets me is that I mentioned more than Finsky in my above post, and strangely no one comes to anyone else defense. I'm often puzzled by things like that.

For the record - just fight nice or agree to disagree: hard to beat either. But I'll take credit for Finsky's new Avatar which I gave to him after he chose to change usernames last evening, I quickly changed it back and closed the door for a future name change. I also (temporarily) reduced his post count by 1000 posts - no posts were removed, only the "Number" in the posting log has been modified. After Finsky chose to be a 54 year old woman with the name Copy&paste, I felt it fitting to respond.

Future games of the sort WON'T result in child like ban-tor on either of our parts. I know Finsky has a following, there are people who enjoy him and some that strongly do not. Either way he is unique and offers a prospective that many of us can only image.

I don't want to make this post about Finsky, it has been for the last few replies (minus the Sinatra thing) and if you wish to get back on topic fine - if not, it is time to lock it up. Six pages on this may just be its threshold.

Last thought: don't anyone tell me how tough I am on Finsky, I lost an entire moderator staff 2 years ago, all of which left BECAUSE I would not ban him - Keep in mind, as a member, you rarely know all of the facts. This job isn't always a piece of cake.
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: newbee101 on March 01, 2007, 07:05:03 pm
Thanks for answering my questions Finster!  
A couple more , if you dont mind?
Do you requeen every year?
Do you buy Queens or do you make your own?
How many kilos of honey do you produce from 23 hives in Finland?

Kiittää Te Ajometsästyksen johtaja Kilpailu Vartija  :-*
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Cindi on March 02, 2007, 12:14:48 am
John, I can bet that no one does fully understand what must be done to make this forum run smoothly.  How could we.  I take my hat off to you for the hard work that I can only imagine that you do as the "governor" of this forum.  It must be one heck of a job.  Keep up good work, everything is done for the best of the forum.  Best of the best day.  Cindi
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Finsky on March 02, 2007, 01:01:56 am
.
I am allready banned here.  I feel good for that.

One thing what you cannot help is that this forum, like others, are deep sources of disinformation. Internet is full of great information "cut and paste" - style. (John, it is well said how to use existing information.)  It takes awfully much time to get it. Most of information comes from US beekeeping universities.  You use them at all. You taxes go for nothing.

But when I paste information here, it is quickly moved to 50 years old believes which live among beekeeprs all over the world. They are beekeeping legends. If I give 5 tested varroa concept, those are nothing, one should have his/her own reciept which he heard from his friend. Nothing is enough and if you have one hive, you should pour all trick on that poor hive. More and more advices come. 

The most usual beekeeping method is "shake".  :lol:  What ever you do, shake bees first.   Second "put sticks into hive" (top bar).

In the year 1977 USA went through all proteins what have given to bees and tested what is best pollen substituent.  it was 30 years ago.
It has been basic knowledge which world has used. But it does not help. It is so called " cut and paste" -information.  Here we can read concepts which have nothing to do with existing information.  It tells that ordinary people does not know what means "protein" or "chemical".

So we have set the level of hobby beekeeping.

 "Worker queen and shaking" - even if there are no worker queen. It is imagination.
"Human is too far from nature"  - 2000 years ago there was that organized thinking

" Chemicals are dangerours" - look at your bathrooms

" I am new beeper. I want to make my own varroa resistant beehive. How shall I do it"  - And then it begins.... :-D

What a mesh! I cannot say sorry. What a mesh!

By the way, my posts are going down like stocks nowadays ....  I hope that they will not go to minus. :roll:


Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Cindi on March 02, 2007, 09:53:25 am
Finsky
The most usual beekeeping method is "shake".    What ever you do, shake bees first.   Second "put sticks into hive" (top bar).

You must clarify what you are saying.  I do not understand.  Best of days.  Cindi
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Michael Bush on March 02, 2007, 01:26:05 pm
>The most usual beekeeping method is "shake". 

I think he's talking about treatments for laying workers.  Many people believe you can shake them out away from the hive and the laying workers don't come back.  I have not found that to be true.  They do come back.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Kirk-o on March 02, 2007, 08:30:07 pm
Dam the Torpedo's FULL STEAM AHEAD.
kirk-o
Title: Re: What we really know about varroa tolerant bees
Post by: Kirk-o on March 02, 2007, 10:38:55 pm
Everyone should realize we are Beekeepers .This forum isn't a Life and Death
proposition I think it is time to lighten up alittle ,take it easy relax I know maybe we could all get a hobbie like BEEKEEPING and relax a little.

Kirk the Brain Surgeon