Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: DamienJasper on September 01, 2013, 06:57:02 pm
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Just gonna preface this by saying I'm not a beekeeper. I know as much about beekeeping as the average person who depends on you guys, because I AM the average person who depends on you guys. So, here goes...
Could have sworn I saw an article last year that said it was figured out. Something about some Invasion of the Body Snatchers type parasite that exploded out of the inside of the bees, Alien style. Guess not? Imagine my surprise to see the issue on the cover of Time.
I've read a lot of articles about this issue since I first heard about it in 2006. I forget how I even first heard about it...strange. Seems every single one, including the most recent Time article avoids something that should be heavily implied. It mentions the cash value of crops. It mentions the cash lost to beekeepers. It mentions the cash value of trying to treat the bees. But doesn't no pollinating mean...no food? Seems every article treats it as purely an economic issue or a niche issue, along the lines of unemployed auto workers. Isn't this a mass starvation issue?
Thought I'd try and contact you guys. Cut through the (sorry for the pun) buzz. What say you? Am I overthinking here? If the plain issue, black and white, is that without bees, or even significantly less bees, there's just not enough food to go around, shouldn't the commentating be more on human survival than jobs? Are we actually talking End Times famine here or am I getting too far ahead?
Thanks for taking the time to read. Hope to hear back.
Marc
P.S. For what it's worth, I live near a AAA baseball team called the bees. And they're lousy. :-\
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The cause for CCD has always and is still a crackerbox full of different villains acting in unison. No one cause has ever been found. Mostly because the pesticide companies pay too much to keep it a secret.
No, no starvation on the horizon. At worst, you may have a strict diet of corn, rice, and other foods that don't need pollinating by bees. Might be a bit skimpy, but tree bark tastes good when you are starving.
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Appreciate your reply.
But...
Can you back up your assertion with anything? That's really what I'm looking for. Sorry, I'm a details and raw information type of person.
Also, your crack about tree bark pretty much just gels with actual mass starvation. No one eats that and you can't survive on it. So I'm not really clear on your main point here.
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Tree bark was an exaggeration. There will be food, just not what and how much we have become accustomed to.
Google CCD and you will find all the backup you desire and then some.
PS. I eat Sassafras tree bark regularly. :D
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I try yahoo! and google, typing in such directives as "CCD and Food Supply" and it's endless articles that state the same statistic incessantly; roughly 1/3...etc.
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TRUE. And I don't know of anybody that couldn't live on 2/3 of what they eat and throw out today. In fact, most in the US could live on just what they throw away.
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I did once read an insane statistic that gelled with what you're saying. Houses throw out something like 1/3 of what they buy and restaurants a whopping 50% of the food purchased gets thrown out. Maybe not enough food isn't really the problem...
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Now you are getting the idea. Losing 1/3 of our food would not do much more than straighten out a few wrongs. Make people be more careful.
Of course, it's not going to happen. We will find a way to keep the bees.
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native americans lived here a long time with no honeybees and they didn't have the advantage of buying their protein at supermarkets.
if you look deep enough you'll also find that there are similar events recorded throughout history. honeybees have mysteriously vanished before.
the very industry that is being hurt by ccd is part of the problem. migratory pollination in the case of almonds in particular exposes bees from all over the country to each other's diseases and pests (think native americans meet smallpox) in a very small area every year.
constantly relocating bees is also stressful for them. imagine if your house was ripped up and hauled thousands of miles on the back of a truck every few weeks while you and your family were trapped inside with no plumbing, running water, etc.
gmo's and pesticides are convenient targets. maybe they play a role but there are a lot of other factors too.
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Appreciate your reply.
But...
Can you back up your assertion with anything? That's really what I'm looking for. Sorry, I'm a details and raw information type of person.
Also, your crack about tree bark pretty much just gels with actual mass starvation. No one eats that and you can't survive on it. So I'm not really clear on your main point here.
I understand the concerns you have about the food supply. The evidence that there's pressure on the honeybee leading to population decline is undeniable. Foods that require pollination will definitely be hit hard. Direct your searches along those paths. Remember the honeybee is not the only pollinator only the most abundant. I see fruits and vegetables being hit the hardest.
As far as will the decline of the bees cause famine. I don't think so but it could cause a lack of diversity in our diet. Prices for certain types of food would increase.
The most likely cause of food shortages would be the continuing increase in world population and the inability of farmers to produce accordingly.
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there are a whole lot of things that we grow well and are not pollinated by honeybees. tomatoes and most grain crops come immediately to mind. i can't think of anything off hand that is solely pollinated by honeybees, but maybe someone can. removal of honeybees would remove competition for other pollinators, so you might imagine that those others would increase in number.
we wouldn't have honey ;)
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The body snatcher is a species of phorid fly that needs a honey bee. Interestingly enough one species of phorid fly may be our salvation from being overwhelmed by these butt-headed fire ants. And, like 10 framer said in so many words: honey bees are technically not native to here. We have plenty of other native pollinators that would fill that niche. I agree with Kathy that these native pollinators would most likely increase in numbers, too..
Our cucurbits (melon/gourd-like plants) have a species of bee called the "squash bee" that just LOVES to pollinate them. The males' habits are pretty hilarious to me. [=
Without honeybees this world would lack a LOT of things. But I don't think it would starve.
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Honeybees (which are not native to the Americas) are not the only pollinators suffering increased death rates and inability to fight off disease and/or mites (many regional DOMESTIC bumblebees, moths, butterflies, and bats are also dying off at alarming rates). As said above, there is no single known or identifiable cause for this issue BUT as shown by your post, THERE IS GROWING CONCERN among the masses.
IMO; it will be the widespread interest and concern coming from folks like yourself, from those who don't keep bees and/or know little about their plight, or even like honey. But they do happen to enjoy eating a wide variety of foods, so I applaud X:X X:X your questions and encourage more to come, from you and others so interested in this issue that should well concern everyone who depends on food. That's fairly inclusive as a group, heh?
I feel certain (just me talking now) It is exactly the kind of interest the BEEKEEPING Community needs, especially from those outside our realm ;)
From my own personal perspective on the issues that honeybees and other pollinators currently suffer I recommend the writings of (scientist and beekeeper) Randy Oliver, a regular contributor to the "Beekeeping Journal" publication. You won't find many with a more wide open and science-based viewpoint, in that "all facts" and factors are considered. No "single" cause is or has ever been identified, because as most beekeepers know, there is no single cause, therefore there is no single cure.
The Fact is, there are many contributors to this "world-wide" pollinator die off with 'denial permeating despite considerable data available' indicating clearly where most of the problems originate..... :deadhorse: (shhh, its US) ...... AND.....its not getter any better with any of the latest gimmicks, gadgets or substances beekeepers themselves introduce, its in fact getting worse, especially for some of the big commercial outfits.
The world 'may' do OK without honeybees, but how about when all the other pollinators go the same way?
Honeybees contribute much to our food supply but it is our Native pollinators ruling over that contribution, just not to the Market ;) Economy where the power to make necessary environmental change "currently" resides.
That's pretty much the bad news. The GOOD NEWS is that with increasing interest and awareness of why we are having these problems, especially from those beyond the scope of those most involved, can only result in making/demanding the changes necessary. When beekeepers AND non-beekeeper citizens speak with one voice, that's what I'm waiting for 8-)
Thanks again for the interest and questions.
Remember; Paranoid could also describe awareness. While ignorance may be bliss, knowledge is most certainly torture.
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T Beek, well said.
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I think I'm getting senile. First, I agreed with a bluebee post, and now Tbeek. Good post, Tbeek.
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Great post Tbeek
I was going to ask if OTHER species have been affected by some of the same issues at the honeybee. Answers that.
I have seen red wasps late in the summer with deformed wings and such. I wondered if that was the same problem and/or if it was "catching".
Saw the first yellow jacket of the season yesterday scoping out one of the same plants the bees have been working (different post). Usually we are covered up with the annoying critters at this time of year.
Was also in hot pursuit of TRYING to get a pic of a "black bee" that I have spotted several times gathering pollen like no tomorrow. A bit rounder and shaped differently then a honey bee.
Also spotted one of the "gray" honey bees I had seen earlier in the year. Must mean that hive is still somewhere around as none of mine are gray.
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Saw the first yellow jacket of the season yesterday scoping out one of the same plants the bees have been working (different post). Usually we are covered up with the annoying critters at this time of year.
numbers of various critters change from year to year. we had low bumblebee years for several in a year, but this year they were everywhere. i got more bumble bee calls than honeybee.
for the last several years we have had tons of yellowjackts. this year, very few. true, i did make an effort to kill as many as i could, early, but even that doesn't account for the lower numbers.
what we observe for short periods of time (global temps, for instance) do not give us a good overall picture of much of anything.
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native americans lived here a long time with no honeybees and they didn't have the advantage of buying their protein at supermarkets.
Native Americans did not plant 1,000s of acres of the same crop to feed the city dwellers with no means of feeding themselves. They did not plant Almonds in one state, enough to supply 80% of the almonds consumed by the world. They planted diverse crops to feed their village and could also forage in the surrounding land. Their village was not surrounded by fields planted with and growing nothing but corn and soybeans. Skip the bees in the almonds next year and see if there are enough native pollinators to do the job.
migratory pollination in the case of almonds in particular exposes bees from all over the country to each other's diseases and pests (think native americans meet smallpox) in a very small area every year.
constantly relocating bees is also stressful for them. imagine if your house was ripped up and hauled thousands of miles on the back of a truck every few weeks while you and your family were trapped inside with no plumbing, running water, etc.
Our own agricultural practices (needed to feed our population) have made us dependent on migratory honey bees to pollinate these crops during the week or two when pollination is needed. After that they need to be gone so spraying can begin. Those fruits and vegetables will have to be perfect for those city people, with no idea how that food makes it to the store (no one will buy an apple with a mark on it....yuck!).
We have made ourselves dependent on honey bees to do the pollination in our mono-agricultural practices. I don't think the honey bees will all disappear or go extinct, but migratory beekeepers just might. And that is when the trouble will begin.
Jim
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Saw/seeing tons of bumbles this year. Plenty of paper wasps (mahogany and "guinea") are building their upside-down umbrellas all over the place. The yellow jackets usually don't get revved up around here for another month or so.. juuust before the cold.
It's hard not to feel sorry for our other pollinators in the fact that almost none of them are colonizing insects like our honeybees. The yellow jackets and paper wasps dwindle down to a queen or two who must try to overwinter and then they start the next year by their lonesome 'till some brood starts hatching off.. It's interesting to note that our wasps are beneficial in that they love to scour our vegetables for caterpillars. I've seen plenty of them flying with very young tomato hornworms in their jaws.. The adults feed the worms to their larvae (protein--like pollen is to honeybee larvae) and the adults themselves prefer the sweeter things in life like the sugar that comes from the nectar in flowers.
Ms. Carol, your grey honeybee just may be the squash bee species. They look very similar to a honeybee in size and everything. Google 'em! [=
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Thanks for the responses. Keep 'em coming! Info is good.
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The issue of whether or not Honey Bees are native has been discussed since the first colonists. In the American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6) it was still being discussed and no new evidence that I know of has been presented since. I would say we did not know then and we still don't know.
But if you are interested:
American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6)
starting on page 299
IS THE HONEYBEE NATIVE OF AMERICA?
A Discourse Intended to Commemorate the Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus.
By Jeremy Belknap.
Delivered at the request of the Historical Society of Massachusetts on the 23rd of October, 1792
Dissertation No. 3, on the question whether the honeybee is a native of America.
Mr. Jefferson, in his notes on Virginia, has said that “The honeybee is not a native of our continent. The Indians concur with us in the tradition that it was brought from Europe, but when and by whom we know not. The bees have generally extended themselves into the country, a little in advance of the white settlers. The Indians called them the white man’s fly; and consider their approach as indicating the approach of the settlement of the whites.” He allows that “in Brazil there is a species of honeybee without a sting, but that is very different from the one we have, which perfectly resembles that of Europe.” The facts adduced by the respectable author are true; but they will not warrant his conclusion that “the honeybee, meaning the one resembling that of Europe, is not a native of our continent.”
There is one circumstance in the history of Columbus which proves that bees were known in the islands of the West Indies, at the time of his discovery. When on his first return to Europe he was in danger of perishing at sea, he wrote an account of his discovery on parchment, which he inclosed in a cake of wax, and put into a tight cask, committing the whole to the sea, in hope of it’s being driven on shore or taken up. This was procured in the island of Hispaniola, which he had visited, and it was one of the first fruits of his discovery.
The indefatigable Purchas gives us an account of the revenues of the Empire of Mexico, before the arrival of the Spaniards, as described in its annals; which were pictures drawn on cotton cloth. Among other articles he exhibits the figures of covered pots with two handles, which are said to be pots of “bees’ honey.” Of these pots, two hundred are depicted in one tribute-roll, and one hundred in several others.
This account is confirmed by the late history of Mexico, written by the Abbe Clavigero, a native of Vera Cruz who from a residence of thirty-six years in Mexico, and a minute inquiry into the natural history and antiquities of his country must be supposed to be well informed, and competent to give a just account. He tells us that a part of every useful production of nature or art was paid in tribute to the kings of Mexico, and among other articles of revenue he reckons “600 cups of honey” paid annually by the inhabitants of the southern part of the empire. He also says, “that though they extracted a great quantity of wax from the honeycomb, they either did not know how or were not at pains to make lights of it.”
In his enumeration of the insects of Mexico, he reckons six different kinds of bees which make honey, four of which have no stings, and one of the other two which have stings, one “agrees with the common bee of Europe, not only in size, shape and color, but also disposition and manners, and in qualities of its honey and wax.”
In the account given by Purchas, of the travels of Ferdinado de Soto, in Florida, it is observed that when he came to Chiaha, which by the description was one of the upper branches of the Mobile (now in the State of Georgia) he found among the provisions of the natives “a pot full of honey of bees.” This was A.D. 1540, when there were no Europeans settled on the continent of America, but in Mexico and Peru.
From these authorities it is evident that honeybees were known in Mexico and the islands, before the arrival of the Europeans; and that they had extended as far northward as Florida, a country so denominated from the numberless flowers, which grow there in the wild luxuriance and afford a plenty of food for this useful tribe of insects. The inference is, that bees were not imported by the Spaniards; for however fond they might be of honey as an article of food, or of wax to make tapers for common use, or for the illumination of their churches, yet as bees were known to be in the country there could be no need of importing them. The report of honey and wax being found in the islands, in Mexico, and in Florida, had reached Europe and had been published there long before any emigrations were made to the northward; therefore, if these had been considered as articles of subsistence or of commerce, the sanguine spirit of the first adventurers would have rather led them to think of finding them in America, than of transporting bees from Europe to make them.
As to the circumstance of the bees “extending themselves a little in advance of white settlers,” it cannot be considered as a conclusive argument in favor or their having been first brought from Europe. It is well known that where land is cultivated bees find a greater plenty of food than in the forest. The blossoms of fruit trees, of grasses and grain, particularly clover and buckwheat, afford them a rich and plentiful repast, and they are seen in vast numbers in our fields and orchards at the season of those blossoms. They therefore delight in the neighborhood of “the white settlers”, and are able to increase in numbers, as well as to augment their quantity of stores, by availing themselves of the labors of man. May it not be from this circumstance that the Indians have given them the name of “the white man’s fly”; and that they “consider their approach (or frequent appearance) as indicating the approach of the settlement of the whites?”
The first European settlement in Virginia was made about seventy years after the expedition of De Soto, in Florida, and the first settlement in New England was ten years posterior to that of Virginia. The large intermediate country was uncultivated for a long time afterward. The southern bees, therefore, could have no inducement to extend themselves very far into the northward for many years after the settlements were begun, and within that time bees were imported from Europe.
That honey and wax were not known to the Indians of New England is evident from this, that they had no words in their language for them. When Mr. Eliot translated the Bible into the Indian language, wherever these terms occurred he used the English words, though sometimes with Indian termination.
Joffelyn, who visited New England first in 1638, and afterward in 1663, and wrote an account of his voyage with some sketches of natural history in 1673, speaks of the honeybee in these words: “the honeybees are carried over by the English, and thrive there exceedingly.”
There is a tradition in New England that the person who first brought a hive of bees into the country was rewarded with a grant of land; but the person’s name, or the place where the land lay or by whom the grant was made, I have not been able to learn.
It appears then that the honeybee is a native of America, and that its productions were found by the first European visitors as far northward as Florida and Georgia. It is also true that bees were imported from Europe into New England, and probably into Virginia; but whether if this importation had not taken place, the bees of the southern parts would not have extended themselves northerly, or whether those which we now have are not a mixture of native and imported bees, cannot be determined. It is however certain that they have multiplied exceedingly, and that they are frequently found in New England, in a wild state, in the trunks of hollow trees, as far northward as cultivation and settlements have extended, which is nearly to the 45th degree of latitude.
I have made an inquiry of several persons from Canada, but have not learned that bees were known during their residence in that country. It is, however, not improbable that as cultivation extends, the bees may find their way to the northward of the lakes and rivers of Canada, even though none should be transported thither by the inhabitants.
Still American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6)
page 301
EXCERPT FROM THE HISTORY OF MEXICO
By Abbe D. Francesco Saverio Clavigero (1731-1787)
Translated from the original Italian in 1806 by Chas Cullen, Esq.
Excerpt from Book 1, of Volume 1.
There are at least six different kinds of bees. The first is the same as the common bee of Europe, with which it agrees, not only in size, shape and color, but also in its disposition and manners, and in the qualities of its honey and wax.
The second species which differs from the first only in having no sting, is the bee of Yucatan and Chiapa, which makes the fine, clear honey of Estabentun, of an aromatic flavor, superior to that of all other kinds of honey with which we are acquainted. The honey is taken from them six times a year, that is once in every other month; but the best is that which is got in November, being made from a white flower like Jessamine, which blooms in September, called in that country Estabentun, from which the honey has derived its name. The honey of Estabentun is in high estimation with the English and French, who touch at the ports of Yucatan; and I have known the French of Buarico to buy it sometimes for the purpose of sending it as a present to the king.
The third species resembles in its form, the winged ants, but is smaller than the common bee, and without a sting. This insect, which is peculiar to warm and temperate climates, forms nests, in size and shape resembling sugar loaves, and even sometimes greatly exceeding these in size, from trees, and particularly from the oak. The populousness of these hives is much greater than those of the common bee. The nymphs of this bee, which are eatable, are white and round, like a pearl. The honey is of a grayish color, but of a fine flavor.
The fourth species is a yellow bee, smaller than the common one, but like it, furnished with a sting. Its honey is not equal to those already mentioned.
The fifth is a small bee furnished with a sting which constructs its hives of an orbicular form. In subterranean cavities; and the honey is sour and somewhat bitter.
The Tlalpiprolli, which is the sixth species, is black and yellow of the size of the common bee, but has no sting.
Wasp
The Xicotli or Xicote, is a thick black wasp, with a yellow belly, which makes a very sweet honey, in holes made by it in walls. It is provided with a strong sting, which gives a very painful wound. The cuicalmiahautl has likewise a sting, but whether it makes honey or not, we do not know.
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interesting read, tyvm Mr. Bush!!! Makes me want to look further.
I have read a few posts in different forums about honey bees NOT being native to the Americas.. I often have to wonder what difference it makes? How many of us ARE native to the Americas?
My wife has Native blood in her background. I do not. My GREAT grandfather came over from Germany when he was six, and I vividly recall him telling of standing on the rail of the ship, and seeing the statue of liberty materializing out of the fog, sending goosebumps up his arms and back. (It in fact gave me goosebumps to hear him tell of it.) His son, my grandpa fought in WW2 AGAINST the Germans. Both of my grandfathers did in different theaters.
On the other side of the family, I have Irish blood. That family crossed in the early eighteen hundreds and quickly lost track of who was married into the family. So... I am only assured of SOME Irish and German bloodlines, which.. In my humble opinion translates to the bees in a similar manner.
I have said it before, and reiterate here... I think it is a prerequisite that if your an American, you have to be a mutt :) Bees have been on this continent longer than some of my own blood, so as far as I am concerned, they ARE American bees!
When WE go to the doctor, about 80% of the time, we get pills tossed at us and sent home, and often feel that we were blown off. (And its getting worse, but thats another story) I feel, and see, that people are doing the same thing to bees with the treatments. While I do not consider that we let our sick people die so only the strong survive to produce a better stronger people, we do have it within our ability to select bees for this purpose. I think, in time, if enough concern is raised, that this will begin to happen more and more. In fact, I think that the bees will long outlive us, if we can help them adapt and overcome the problems they have, instead of throwing pills at them.
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native americans lived here a long time with no honeybees and they didn't have the advantage of buying their protein at supermarkets.
Native Americans did not plant 1,000s of acres of the same crop to feed the city dwellers with no means of feeding themselves. They did not plant Almonds in one state, enough to supply 80% of the almonds consumed by the world. They planted diverse crops to feed their village and could also forage in the surrounding land. Their village was not surrounded by fields planted with and growing nothing but corn and soybeans. Skip the bees in the almonds next year and see if there are enough native pollinators to do the job.
migratory pollination in the case of almonds in particular exposes bees from all over the country to each other's diseases and pests (think native americans meet smallpox) in a very small area every year.
constantly relocating bees is also stressful for them. imagine if your house was ripped up and hauled thousands of miles on the back of a truck every few weeks while you and your family were trapped inside with no plumbing, running water, etc.
Our own agricultural practices (needed to feed our population) have made us dependent on migratory honey bees to pollinate these crops during the week or two when pollination is needed. After that they need to be gone so spraying can begin. Those fruits and vegetables will have to be perfect for those city people, with no idea how that food makes it to the store (no one will buy an apple with a mark on it....yuck!).
We have made ourselves dependent on honey bees to do the pollination in our mono-agricultural practices. I don't think the honey bees will all disappear or go extinct, but migratory beekeepers just might. And that is when the trouble will begin.
Jim
pretty sure we can exist without almonds and i'd say most of what we actually eat doesn't depend on honeybees for pollination. the thousands of acres of corn and soybeans certainly don't and i'm pretty sure most of our vegetables don't either. our beef comes from grain fed cattle and most grain is wind pollinated. we are far from dependent on honeybees for our food in this country. those thousands of acres of corn in the midwest were thousands of acres of prairie that would have offered honeybees very little chance of crossing from east to west without a lot of help from man before we decided to cover it in corn. if migratory beekeeping ended we wouldn't starve. the almond growers would suffer and maybe some crops like melons and certain fruits would be set back but the bulk of the average american's diet would never know the difference.
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pretty sure we can exist without almonds and i'd say most of what we actually eat doesn't depend on honeybees for pollination. the thousands of acres of corn and soybeans certainly don't and i'm pretty sure most of our vegetables don't either. our beef comes from grain fed cattle and most grain is wind pollinated. we are far from dependent on honeybees for our food in this country. those thousands of acres of corn in the midwest were thousands of acres of prairie that would have offered honeybees very little chance of crossing from east to west without a lot of help from man before we decided to cover it in corn. if migratory beekeeping ended we wouldn't starve. the almond growers would suffer and maybe some crops like melons and certain fruits would be set back but the bulk of the average american's diet would never know the difference.
Wow! I had no idea I was sooooo wrong!
Sorry to hear you do not enjoy eating fruits, nuts and vegetables. I am sure those almond, peach, pear, cherry, apple, blueberry, melons(water, lopes, honeydews) pumpkins, squash and such growers can cut down their trees or plow in those crops and plant wheat and corn...at least that will keep them out of the unemployment lines.
Puffed Wheat and Corn Flakes .. for everyone...EVERYDAY.....YEAH!!! I hear apple wood smoked corn flakes are excellent.
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Not all people think alike.
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No "two people" think alike :shock: And Grandpa Jim isn't wrong :) This isn't a competition, is it?
Sure am glad we DON'T eat GMO corn (flakes) or GMO soybeans (tofu?), at least not store bought. There are other choices.
Our beef comes from up the road and is GRASS fed NOT grain fed.
Our garden is over an acre in size, much of it visited by our own bees and other local pollinators. We raise our own pigs and chickens most years or purchase them from our neighbors.
Our wild meat comes in the form of locally caught fish, white tail deer, turkeys, partridge and increasingly, pheasant. We have an orchard with several apple and cherry trees along with currents and blueberries. Since we process much of our own food we limit trips to the town grocery to just 1 or 2 times a month.
Ahhhh, Life IS GOOD! And its even better with honeybees! 8-)
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cast your line somewhere else, i'm not biting. my point is that we won't starve without honeybees and there are a lot of pollinators other than honeybees that work fruits and vegetables.
t beek i was responding to the statement that city dwellers have diets that require honeybees. most of the animals in this country that are slaughtered and packed are grain fed and a lot of grasses are wind pollinated as well.
this isn't a competition but to say that americans would starve without migratory beekeepers just isn't true.
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Don't commercial Beeks usually keep groups of hives pretty close together? They travel from place to place together? Let's say CCD takes 80 out of 100 hives that have been traveling together. Why didn't the other 20 fail? They were on the same ground, exposed to the same chemicals, diet, and travel stress as the others. Those hives were probably pretty similar in size. Same equipment. Most of the queens may have even come from the same apiary. Why did those 20 survive? What was different?
Has anyone seen research which tracked the hives that did survive in an area where CCD took out most of the other hives? We've had this blight for multiple years now. I would be interested in hearing whether those 20 hives that made it 2 years ago, made it through again this year while others failed.
One thing I know; A lack of bees will not be the end of the world. In Genesis 8:22, God promises that as long as the earth remains we will continue to have seed-time and harvest. (There will be people on earth at the end of time.) That doesn't mean the harvest won't be skimpy for some years to come. It could be that the cause of CCD, the perfect cocktail, whittles down the number of hives to 10% or 15%. Traveling hives will likely increase the speed of destruction. Increased meds will likely slow down the process. In the end, we will have a small number of more robust survivors who will slowly repopulate the world.
But what do I know?
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cast your line somewhere else, i'm not biting.
Are you saying that there's no fish in this hole?? :lau:
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Americans will starve without Safeway. there could be a 10lb swarm hanging off the front of the building, but if the doors are locked, the people will die. :evil:
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cast your line somewhere else, i'm not biting.
Are you saying that there's no fish in this hole?? :lau:
yes ma'am the fish aren't biting over here.
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Americans will starve without Safeway. there could be a 10lb swarm hanging off the front of the building, but if the doors are locked, the people will die. :evil:
LOL :lau:
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i was responding to the statement that city dwellers have diets that require honeybees.
Their "diet" is no different then others, but they do not have the ability (land, space) to provide food for themselves. So someone (Farmers) have to grow as much as possible on the land they have to supply the additional food to feed them, not a problem that is what farmers do.
Without migratory beekeepers those large orchards will produce a much reduced amount of fruit (I think this is a proven fact). Less fruits from the same space becomes higher prices to the consumer. So we eat more grains...more demand for grains becomes higher prices for grains. That eventually will also raise the price of your steak and gas since we turn corn into fuel now. When the orchards cannot keep up with taxes, insurance and maintenance, because of the reduced yields, the trees will be turned into fire wood further reducing the supply of fruits.
Last year there was a freeze during the bloom in the main growing area for canning cherries. There was just no crop, the canneries did not open. By August the price of water packed cherries was through the roof. By September there were none available. Cherry pies came off the our menu....no one starved....but I would bet it was painful for the growers, packers and processors. For those people that income is lost and cannot be made up ....lost sales, income and jobs. Multiply that by all the fruits, nuts and vegetables that those 2 million migratory hives pollinate in one year and I think it could be very painful for a lot of people. But hey.....at least no one starved!
You are right....No one is going to starve when the bees are gone , but we will be a lot poorer. We will not starve, we will die fighting over that last apple (I guess that is how it all started.....over an apple...how fitting is that).
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Honestly? I feel like my question still kinda stands.
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Your original questions had more to do with whether bees are dying, whether a cure has been found and if there will be enough food if the bees all die.
Yes, No and Yes.
As for the last one, whether there will be enough food without bees. Right now there are food shortages all over the planet that have NOTHING to do with availability. Lack of food in some parts of the world have more to do with (purposeful) "distribution" (and lack of) and too many Landlords speculating their holdings.
Do we also want to know how those vast holdings were obtained? That might take another posting ;)
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The post right before my last one makes some sense though. I mean, I suppose if I had to, I could do corn and rice forever if all else failed. But if it's what EVERYONE is doing...well that's another story.
But then, we are talking the assumption that ALL bees die. So I guess my next question is how have you guys been able to keep going? Math doesn't seem to add up. If it's been a third or more since 2006, shouldn't the commercial bee hives dried up by now?
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Some of the BIG commercials have in fact, folded. IMHO I can only say good riddance. Most simply spread diseased bees IMO. Treating insects like cattle was always a no win endeavor, at least long term.
Honeybees are very prolific. Even "if" a third of them died each year, a healthy queen can lay around 2000 eggs per day when things are going well, allowing for a come back population every year. In other words, They can be replaced in overall numbers every year. Whether they are healthy is the question.
If I ruled the world :-D I'd ban migratory beekeeping, exceptions to regional areas and uses. But then again, I'd also ban our current methods of food production and distribution as well.
See what I mean? This discussion can lead us far away from bees and beekeeping.
We've been growing/selling garlic and other alliums for many years so I suppose if bees all died we'd still have some flavor in our food. So for those fearful of only having bland food in the future...GROW MORE GARLIC! 8-)
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I honestly, until recently, never considered how bad all the migrating could be/is for bees. And frankly any animals for that matter. One of the reasons I don't like the circus or the rodeo. I'm not hugely into animals and certainly not insects, but treating living things, even ones as pesky as bees, like packing peanuts is bad news.
Say, do bees pollinate pineapple? Because unlike most people, I love pineapple on my pizza.
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Here's something that I haven't yet heard get a mention. Has no one in the world heard of the "boom and bust cycles" that are constantly present in almost everything...period? I'll take you back to highschool biology....: A high population of rabbits in an area can support greater densities of coyotes...as the coyotes grow and pressure increases, the area cannot support a lot of rabbits and they decline in population. As the rabbits decline in population, the same area becomes less able to sustain a high number of coyotes. Eventually, the coyotes' numbers lessen, and the rabbit population once again begins to increase.
I know that that's a worn-out example, but you get the picture. CCD, to me, is natural. CCD=what happens when numbers become too high in an environment unable to support those numbers (and not meant to, either).
What I find interesting is that all this worry seems to be a hint at the fact that our (human) numbers are getting higher than we seem to be able to sustain at the rate we're going. Food crises are the coyotes...we are the rabbits. We are constantly, as a species, only patching problems that we create rather than figuring out how to stop causing the problems in the first place. An ounce of prevention (i.e. better practices!)...
That's my answer, Damien. Boom and bust. We're starting to bust. Don't worry, though! The patches are coming.
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The "Boom and Bust" example of rabbits and coyotes provides no apparent harm to life, unless your a rabbit or coyote :-D.
However the "Boom and Bust" cycles perpetuated by "human activity" are another matter. What is currently happening to honeybees around the world is a result of OUR living in it and taking little responsibility for the damage we've done, whether purposely or by accident (?).
Economically speaking, the U.S has had such cycles since our founding, largely benefitting those already most fortunate in our society while harming those less fortunate, to include Humans, Land, critters, waterways and its inhabitants.
The exploitation of our planet by and for the benefit of the few will not end until its been used up or made unfit for consumption. We simply aren't able to stop it, not yet anyway. This all goes back to that permeating "denial" that affects us all and was mentioned early on this thread.
"To be a friend of the Earth you must be an enemy of the people." TC Boyle
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t beek you realize that by most people's standards if you own enough land to have a garden over an acre you are one of the favored few. are you prepared to let the state distribute your property so everyone can have their share of your garden? class warfare is fine until it's taken to the level that you become part of the fortunate few. be careful what you wish for. i agree with the rest of what you are saying, though. here in the south every spare acre ends up planted in pine which does the bees absolutely no good. the prairies of 250 years ago are the biggest corn field in the world and there are countless other examples here in the states as well as the rest of the world. the problem is the only option we have would be to go the route of china and limit the number of children a family can have.
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Hm, lets ponder this accusation (?) It seemed like an accusation of some kind. I own a little over ten acres, or should I say the bank owns it until its fully paid off, but then there's that mineral rights clause......Homesteaded over 30 years ago with no power or running water for the first six years, grew a big garden with 3 sons to help, truck farmed, sawed wood, hunted, kept animals all while woking a ....a....a..bbb...bb.b. Government Job, that took me out of the Country the equivalent of half a year sometimes. Three sons grown, married, moved on.....so in a manner of speaking I do feel fortunate and do resist 'wishing' for anything as a rule, but I'm a long way from the "privileged" class you are referring to. As a sometimes Buddhist I try to practice acceptance and awareness as best as I can as often as I can during these strange days.
As I've stated many times in these pages the world doesn't have a population problem or a food shortage problem...What we have is a LANDLORD problem. To few self-proclaimed 'owners' controlling the riches of what rightfully belongs to and should be shared by all of Earths inhabitants. I contend and will challenge any other opinion as to whether or not there is plenty of the Earth to go around (that includes its riches) that could satisfy the desires of all citizens and end poverty as a bonus.
No human-being created the land or the seas, yet we (have been fooled) into allowing a 'few' of them to reap all the rewards. The question we don't hear is WHY, perhaps because its not being screamed loud enough, I don't know. But I do know that unless and until humans stop behaving like sheep many will die.
As for class warfare...read your history books man, and not the ones they give you in schools. Class warfare; Its been going on for over 2000 years (guess who won?) and the real "takers" of all cultures and societies (its not the poor) have gotten progressively better at controlling the masses over all those years...mostly by keeping us divided and fighting among ourselves over trivial BS.
That old "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" thing. Oh well.........
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Bleh. A broken thread.
Before that happened, things seem to have run away a bit. The question being answered is not really the one asked. The assumed question being answered is "what if ALL the bees were gone". Well, we've covered that.
The question I suppose I have is where do you/we stand now and for the foreseeable future?
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yeah, it went south pretty fast op. sorry, but a thread like this was bound to.
beek, i'm not accusing. i worked hard to get to the point of the bank owning my land too.
my point is that to even be able to reach that point you are doing much better than most. i have several friends that are extremely wealthy (one may be a billionaire) and they are all self made and didn't come from money. i don't think the system is designed so that an ambitious person can't accumulate wealth.
my concern is much like my concerns over the invasions of our privacy. you can say "let them look at my emails, etc, i'm not doing anything wrong." the problem is what is defined as "nothing wrong" today could change by tomorrow. so, the standard of the "haves" may change to the point that even the things we've worked for will be considered more than "our share".
i'm pretty libertarian and i don't feel particularly oppressed. i work for a big corporation and they have a group of people in denver that are no doubt payed a lot of money to figure out how to beat poor old rob out of another 50 dollars each month but that's the nature of the beast. when they take to much there is a competitor that will pay me more til they figure out how to milk me. i also want to say that i appreciate the fact that you can disagree without being hostile, too. a lot of people can't seem to do that.
op, if all the bees are gone we'll adapt and 100 years later no one will no the difference. it's sad but it's true.
my OPINION is that the bees will also adapt. let's hope i'm right.
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Thanks for getting this thread back on track. I wasn't sure where it was going. I was almost sure some reference to Area 51 was going to pop up next. :-D
Before this is misunderstood. I mean that the OP wanted to know if he needed to be concerned about the loss of honeybees and how the food supply would be affected.
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THanks. That is indeed my question. And again; not the hypothetical loss of ANY AND ALL honeybees, but where things are now.
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Well, the warnings at the beginning of this thread were vaguely clear. I fear the answers provided just aren't taken seriously enough, its that DENIAL thing again.
THAT my friends, is where things are now. :( collectively we're still in the denial phase. Hopefully the 'reality' phase kicks in before its too late, but its soooooo hard :shock:
Refusing to accept our human responsibility to the Earth, ourselves and future generations, make the hard choices, clean up our messes instead of enlarging (denying) them.
Really, must we go on like this? Maybe some of us deserve to be paranoid, I don't know. I do know this thread seems to have run its course.
Time to pull some weeds.
Xin Loi
BTW; to collect (hoard) wealth one must be at least slightly sociopathic. SEE Wall Street for examples
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I agree we (the human animal) were meant to be stewards of the earth.
I don't believe you will ever see the loss all honeybees in your lifetime...if you want to assure yourself of that, become a beekeeper.
It may decrease the diversity of our diets, but it won't cause mass-starvation.
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I agree we (the human animal) were meant to be stewards of the earth.
I don't believe you will ever see the loss all honeybees in your lifetime...if you want to assure yourself of that, become a beekeeper.
It may decrease the diversity of our diets, but it won't cause mass-starvation.
"Stewards of the Earth" heh? "Meant" to be, huh? So how're we doing? Do we pass or fail at our stewardship? Don't ask my opinion unless you really want it :-D
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"Israel?...... is NOT real!" :-\
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I tried.
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I stopped reading through its entirety after about the first 2/3 of page two... I call it TCD. Tread Collapse Disorder. [;
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I stopped reading through its entirety after about the first 2/3 of page two... I call it TCD. Tread Collapse Disorder. [;
LOL