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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Finski on October 27, 2012, 11:57:42 pm

Title: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 27, 2012, 11:57:42 pm
Me USA, me no varroa

But what is "local" weather now there

"we" in South Finland have same weather as in Anchorage Alaska. It is now here -6C
http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/anchorage/ext (http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/anchorage/ext)

Last night it was -20C in northern parts of our beekeeping area. It is cold spell now.


Nobody notice a tiny Canada....Winnibeg , about 0C to -9C

Michigan -1C to -6C

Salt Lake City  +3 to +15C

Oregon Ohio  +2 to +10C

Oregon Missouri  -1 to +13C

Los Angeles +15C to +29C


So, winter is very near

.

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 28, 2012, 12:21:59 am
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Siberian Capital Yakutsk  now 0C to -25C. In December to February  it is steady weather -40C

http://www.foreca.fi/Russia/Yakutsk (http://www.foreca.fi/Russia/Yakutsk)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: T Beek on October 28, 2012, 09:48:02 am
Had 19F this AM.  The pond behind my home has begun to freeze over.  If current temps continue I should be ice-fishing by Turkey Day  :)) 

Finski; Many US beeks insulate their hives (Finland is hardly exclusive) and as a frequent poster you know that to be true.  Many have minimal issues w/ varroa as well, so far  ;)

Is everything really a competition w/ you.....no?  Yes?  Maybe? 

Not certain of the motive behind this misinformed proclamation above ("We in USA....need not insulation", duh?), unless you're 'trying' to provoke someone  :shock:  What does it even mean?

My Finnish (born) neighbor tells me all the time, "the problem w/ Finns is they drink so much it causes them to pee too much."  :-D  I think he means they can be pissy .
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 28, 2012, 11:29:41 am
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I say nothing about your face. You surely are as dark inside.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: BlueBee on October 28, 2012, 04:42:31 pm
Most of the hobby bee keepers in my area do attempt to make some effort insulating their wooden hives.  However their attempt at adding insulation doesn’t often make physics sense; unfortunately.  Just sticking a slab of foam on top of a hive really isn’t insulating it.  IMO the best approach for insulating is similar to what Finski preaches; ditch the wood and use polystyrene hives to begin with.  At least for people living in the Northern states. 

There are plenty of forces going against insulated polystyrene hives here.  Wood is still cheaper, more physically robust, wax moth, ant, and rodent proof, wood is “traditional”, the commercial guys still use wood, and bee keepers can be a little stubborn at times.  I currently keep around 50 colonies, and all but a couple are in homemade polystyrene boxes.  However the commercial guys around me (400+ hives) use pure wood.  If you start with wood, then the costs of properly insulating in the winter really goes up.  This is surely a big reason why the commercial guys around me don’t insulate their wood hives…..it’s just too expensive and spring bees from Georgia are still relatively cheap.   
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 28, 2012, 06:14:51 pm
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I just tried top explain me-USA. 300 milj people and its me who represents the whole USA from Hawai to Alaska's tundra


However, when some one insulates hives, it is near madness.


(http://www.cibees.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/hivewrap-812x1024.jpg)
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Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: buzzbee on October 28, 2012, 07:43:24 pm
Now I may be wrong,but I gathered from reading this that some people ignore the idea of insulating the hives in winter because of lack of cold.His point is America is a big country with area from Alaska,dang it's cold to Florida and Hawaii where they say winter is 70 degrees.
If you ignore the cold as you may ignore a heavy varroa load,your hives could very well be dead over winter.
 Oddly enough T-Beek he is backing what you say that advice in one part of America does not holds true for the whole nation.

And I see the other point that some hive insulation is over zealous. He uses poly hives with very good success. It's a wonder more are not sold in the US.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: BjornBee on October 28, 2012, 09:05:07 pm
What does it even mean?

 :lau:

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: minz on October 28, 2012, 11:11:09 pm
I got a brother up in Alaska that tried bees a few years and gave it up.  Sounds like it may be possible if other herring chokers are doing it. Maybe I should not say herring choker  :-D, it gets kicked around a lot by the Swedish in-laws but I don’t know if it is a term of endearment or not. 
Anyway what type of bugs you running up there in the tundra?
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: BlueBee on October 29, 2012, 01:04:42 am
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However, when some one insulates hives, it is near madness.

(http://www.cibees.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/hivewrap-812x1024.jpg)
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Finski you shouldn’t be too surprised by what some beeks come up with.  The USA ranks near the bottom of the civilized world in math and science.  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/opinion/26tue2.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/opinion/26tue2.html?_r=0)

Black plastic wrap isn't an insulator and doesn’t do the bees any good at night when it really gets cold.  We Americans do a lot of crazy things. 
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 07:34:07 am

Anyway what type of bugs you running up there in the tundra?


I ment that USA and Canada have tundra. So we have too. Up on mountains there are tundra too.

Wer have many beekeepers on Polar Circle. They have Carniolans and Italians

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Arctic_circle.svg/350px-Arctic_circle.svg.png)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 07:40:58 am
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My brother kept Italian bees in Öjeby Sweden 20 years. He got as good yields as I in south.
Reason was that there were no other hives on pastures . Yield was mostly 50 kg/hive.
It went very normally.
He had extra box for winter. He put the hive inside and insulations into the gap between box and the hive.

geographical coordinates: 65° 20' 43" North,

(http://images.maplandia.com/sweden/norrbottens-lan/pitea-kommun/ojebyn/users/stig-helgesen/stig-helgesen-336x280.gif)


65 latitude in Alaska, Crooked Creek Cabins Bed and Breakfast
(http://crookedcreekbb.com/crookedcreekbb/public/images/alaska_map_1.png)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 07:51:55 am
.
The northmost beekeepers, what I know lives in Ivalo 68.61 North latitude.
He wins often prices in honey taste contests.


Here is news...

http://www.kaleva.fi/uutiset/pohjois-suomi/suomen-parasta-hunajaa-ivalosta/62580/ (http://www.kaleva.fi/uutiset/pohjois-suomi/suomen-parasta-hunajaa-ivalosta/62580/)

Cloudberry honey got most votes

I do not know how he do that. Perhaps he keep hives in south during winter.
Summer weathers are relly miserable on those latitudes. Sun shine even at night.

Scenes http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=ivalo+maisemat&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1366&bih=673&wrapid=tlif135150799688110&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=wGCOUJTlB6aP4gTevoAQ (http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=ivalo+maisemat&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1366&bih=673&wrapid=tlif135150799688110&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=wGCOUJTlB6aP4gTevoAQ)

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Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 08:10:53 am
I got a brother up in Alaska that tried bees a few years and gave it up. 

I live at the latitude of Anchorage.

What we first need is a bee strain which react corectly on local climate.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: derekm on October 29, 2012, 10:11:48 am
..
And I see the other point that some hive insulation is over zealous. ..

"The majority of beekeepers do not give sufficient insulation and no beekeeper ever gave too much " Everertt Phillips Franklin

and even the bees in  finski's hives arent as warm as the  bees in a nice thick tree.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 10:33:31 am


"The majority of beekeepers do not give sufficient insulation and no beekeeper ever gave too much " Everertt Phillips Franklin

and even the bees in  finski's hives arent as warm as the  bees in a nice thick tree.

There are two rubbish thing in your writing

What means "majority of beekeepers". They are hobby beekeepers and beginners and they know much about beekeeping.
Because hives are adaptive, they can stand those idiotic beeholders.

Then that tree. We have not hollow thick trees. Varroa killed cavity hives in every country: USA, Britain, South Africa, NZ.

That "natural hollow tree" is Bull ship story. Hollow trees get a new swarm from nursed hives.

If we look the inslutaion values of the log, it is very poor. Franklin may say what ever. If he is from USA or from Biratin, he knows nothing about insulation.

Polyhive has 10 times better insulation value than a tree.

Guys spoil the polyhive when trey use open mesh floor. That is a big mystery.
When I use solid floor, my ventilation hole is 5% that of mesh floor. My hives get enough oxygen. What is the idea that size of ventilation hole as mesh floor.

My mother use to shout íf we children left the door open: "Doors shut! We have bought firewoods"
.

.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: derekm on October 29, 2012, 11:12:45 am


"The majority of beekeepers do not give sufficient insulation and no beekeeper ever gave too much " Everertt Phillips Franklin

and even the bees in  finski's hives arent as warm as the  bees in a nice thick tree.

There are two rubbish thing in your writing

What means "majority of beekeepers". They are hobby beekeepers and beginners and they know much about beekeeping.
Because hives are adaptive, they can stand those idiotic beeholders.

Then that tree. We have not hollow thick trees. Varroa killed cavity hives in every country: USA, Britain, South Africa, NZ.

That "natural hollow tree" is Bull ship story. Hollow trees get a new swarm from nursed hives.

If we look the inslutaion values of the log, it is very poor. Franklin may say what ever. If he is from USA or from Biratin, he knows nothing about insulation.

Polyhive has 10 times better insulation value than a tree.

Guys spoil the polyhive when trey use open mesh floor. That is a big mystery.
When I use solid floor, my ventilation hole is 5% that of mesh floor. My hives get enough oxygen. What is the idea that size of ventilation hole as mesh floor.

My mother use to shout íf we children left the door open: "Doors shut! We have bought firewoods"
.

.
lets deal in facts

Polystyrene is a better insulator than wood. But that says nothing about the insulation of the cavity inside a hive or a tree nest.

Have you actually measured the thermal conductance of your assembled polystyrene hive?

Have you measured the thermal conductance of a tree nest cavity?

btw The polystyrene hive I tested was made in Finland.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 11:51:45 am

lets deal in facts

Polystyrene is a better insulator than wood. But that says nothing about the insulation of the cavity inside a hive or a tree nest.

Have you actually measured the thermal conductance of your assembled polystyrene hive?

Have you measured the thermal conductance of a tree nest cavity?

btw The polystyrene hive I tested was made in Finland.

First, I need not evidence because I have nursed bees over winter in poly 20 years.  If I know better, what I do them? Move my bees to tree cavity?

Fine bubble polystyrene has 10 times better insulation value than solid wood. Dry wood. In the hive wood has a good moisture percentage.
It is same with plye.

I have two kind of polyboxes. Nacca is the old whi´ch has thin central "mirror".
Then new honey boxes which have the whole surface thick wall
Then I have a inner zself made inner cover. Who knows what is the insulation value.

Then I have ventilation system  1 cm x 15 cm main enrtance and upper entrance diameter 1,5 cm.

Who knows what is summa summarum...


I have used too 3 cm thick solid wood boxes. That I know that they consume 50% more
winter food than polyhives.
I tried mesh floors and they consumed 100% more winter food.

What does it means?
- if in wooden hive food store is enough 6 months, in polyhive it s 9 months. Possibility to dead outs is smaller and I can find the food stores.

The biggest advantage is in spring. When in autumn the hive consume 1 kg food in month, in Spring it consumes
4 kg in month. And then ion May 4 kg in one week when the box is full of brood.

When I started to heat hives with electrict, I found how impotrtant is the heat. Even experienced beeks do not under stand that.


I think that I have done enough to reviele out what means the heat to the hives.
Even if I know that lodge house is better for bee (but it is not) I cannot help things.

My 3 cm thick wooden times weight 9 kg per box. When I move 2-box hives to outer pastures,
the weight of hive is 16 more than polyhive.
I remember how difficult was to lift those hives to carry. Now, polyhives are very easy. They are really good to my back.


And wooden box. The weight full of honey is 45 kg and in poly 35 kg.
At the age of 65 35 kg is too much to my back bone.

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: derekm on October 29, 2012, 12:05:49 pm
finski,

That a polystyrene is warmer a wooden hives - Fact
Tree nest warmer than polystyrene hive - fact
I dont need 25 years as bee keeper to measure facts.
How many beekeepers  use hives warmer than Finnish  polystyrene hives?  I know only two. They  are not in Finland or US.

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 12:22:59 pm
finski,

That a polystyrene is warmer a wooden hives - Fact
Tree nest warmer than polystyrene hive - fact
I dont need 25 years as bee keeper to measure facts.
How many beekeepers  use hives warmer than Finnish  polystyrene hives?  I know only two. They  are not in Finland or US.



What is the value of your facts. Price of sugar is one euro per kilo. How much you trunk hive saves winter food. Or what is ide in your trunk hive?

It was not fault that I was born in 1947 and started beekeeping in 1962.

Yes I know that you neet not some many living years to keep bees. You clear it out in 3 years. Okay!

How many use warmer hives...They are millions, because in warm climates bees need not any insulation.  

When did you changed you medication?
I cannot undestand what are you insisting. That I should keep my colonies in some tree trunks?


Measure hives? Why? What do I do then?  Should I bye British National Hives?

.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 12:25:32 pm
.
In the picture Finski is moving his future hive to canola fields

(http://www.australfoto.com/Amazon/Brazils-Middle-Lands/20041001AmazonDeforestation02/144593424_KTbvd-M-1.jpg)



Finski's mating nucs in Finland and extraction station behind

(http://www.colourbox.com/preview/1776112-512580-antique-wooden-chapel-and-beehive-pirogovo-kyiv-ukraine.jpg)



Finski's second hand tractor and Mrs Finski keeps balance

(http://www.daveblackonline.com/Needforagoodwife-1.jpg)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: derekm on October 29, 2012, 12:57:43 pm
finski,

That a polystyrene is warmer a wooden hives - Fact
Tree nest warmer than polystyrene hive - fact
I dont need 25 years as bee keeper to measure facts.
How many beekeepers  use hives warmer than Finnish  polystyrene hives?  I know only two. They  are not in Finland or US.



What is the value of your facts. Price of sugar is one euro per kilo. How much you trunk hive saves winter food. Or what is ide in your trunk hive?

It was not fault that I was born in 1947 and started beekeeping in 1962.

Yes I know that you neet not some many living years to keep bees. You clear it out in 3 years. Okay!

How many use warmer hives...They are millions, because in warm climates bees need not any insulation.  

When did you changed you medication?
I cannot undestand what are you insisting. That I should keep my colonies in some tree trunks?


Measure hives? Why? What do I do then?  Should I bye British National Hives?

.

you should try to make a hive as warm as a tree nest, but not out of wood. Most beekeepers have further to go than you but even the great finski is not there yet ...
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 01:33:55 pm
[
you should try to make a hive as warm as a tree nest, but not out of wood. Most beekeepers have further to go than you but even the great finski is not there yet ...

I would believe you but you are from UK. They are giants of intelligence in insulation issues.

I must try that match stick method. I am eager to measure how fast the hive looses its winter stores. I bet that in 2 months.

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: minz on October 29, 2012, 04:52:11 pm
I looked at that picture 3 times before I seen the front wheel was gone! Now I get the counter balance.  Too funny but a real world way of showing you know how to make due!

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on October 29, 2012, 05:19:20 pm
.

Me too. My brains did not accept first that a wheel is missing. I just noted happy people.

Then I noticed why lady is in that site.

Pic is from Ukraine.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: D Semple on October 29, 2012, 06:16:34 pm
She looks like a keeper Fin
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: GLOCK on November 01, 2012, 08:23:38 pm
Makes me feel better.
[img(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae9/GLOCK3/IMGP3173.jpg)][/img]
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 02, 2012, 03:13:41 am
.
That looks like well armed.

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 02, 2012, 11:01:28 am
.

But those boards in front of entrance? Are they allrerady there?
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: buzzbee on November 03, 2012, 08:11:20 am
Glock,
Those cement blocks on top will create real cold spots under the telescoping cover. When you get a warm day after a cold night,frost will remain a lot longer under the cement blocks. They will act as a radiator, or open window if you will, on top of your metal cover.
If the lid becomes the coldest part,that is where moisture will condense and fall from.Especially if they are directly over the hole in the inner cover. I had cement blocks on mine for the storm,but they will come off today.
 If you are  worried about the lid coming off,I would rather see a drywall screw screwed into the side of the top cover.If the fence in the background surrounds your apiary,you should have no problem with the lids blowing off.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: GLOCK on November 03, 2012, 10:04:26 am
Glock,
Those cement blocks on top will create real cold spots under the telescoping cover. When you get a warm day after a cold night,frost will remain a lot longer under the cement blocks. They will act as a radiator, or open window if you will, on top of your metal cover.
If the lid becomes the coldest part,that is where moisture will condense and fall from.Especially if they are directly over the hole in the inner cover. I had cement blocks on mine for the storm,but they will come off today.
 If you are  worried about the lid coming off,I would rather see a drywall screw screwed into the side of the top cover.If the fence in the background surrounds your apiary,you should have no problem with the lids blowing off.
BUZZBEE thank you for the heads up.
 Under my tel.covers is a piece  1in. insulation  plus i have 3 hive that have that wonder coves that are made of plastic and i have them straped down with straps i can buy them for all my hives so now i need 11 more straps ya.
Finski=  those boards are so wind don't go in the bottom and theres a place for them to walk out on be hide the boards plus a top entrance is in place.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: minz on November 09, 2012, 01:34:19 am
Finski, I did not know you had palm trees in Finland.  Here are a couple of shots of wood from the in-laws for bottom boards:
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/1950-LebanontoForestGrove.jpg (http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/1950-LebanontoForestGrove.jpg)
They all got on the band wagon and decided to go to screened so they went for smaller wood:
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/1948-PrivateRoadTrasktoCarltonAutocarTruck.jpg (http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/1948-PrivateRoadTrasktoCarltonAutocarTruck.jpg)
but as luck would have it they caught the top bar hive wave and had to go back to the coast range for another load:
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/1939-ChevyTrucktoVernonia.jpg (http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/1939-ChevyTrucktoVernonia.jpg)
Maybe we could just bore a hole in her and see how much insulation we have?
 :laugh:
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: derekm on November 09, 2012, 07:24:04 am
[
you should try to make a hive as warm as a tree nest, but not out of wood. Most beekeepers have further to go than you but even the great finski is not there yet ...

I would believe you but you are from UK. They are giants of intelligence in insulation issues.

I must try that match stick method. I am eager to measure how fast the hive looses its winter stores. I bet that in 2 months.



I have measured the amount of heatloss caused by the matchstick method.  The  amount of heat  it loses is no surprise to you or me.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 09, 2012, 09:55:16 am
.  Here are a couple of shots of wood from the in-laws for bottom boards:

We have everything so small in Finland, trees, roads but not trucks.

This is "Indian turn around" in narrow forest way,

"Intiaanikäännös" Puutavara-autolla (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ6Rb4Wa790#)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: minz on November 09, 2012, 10:35:41 pm
I watched the entire thing, it was painful! It almost looks like he had a ‘sleeper’ on the back of the cab.  A self loader also.  Those were decent size logs, about the same as we cut here now.  Most of the trucks are about the same as the in-law here (known for his white shoes on a log truck). They disconnect the back of the trailer and put it on the back of the truck.  You don’t need a video to see how they turn that. That many logs as in your video you would think they would have a dedicated loader or skidder to load them up.
http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/?action=view&amp;current=1936-WhiteshoesandanewChevy.jpg (http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/?action=view&amp;current=1936-WhiteshoesandanewChevy.jpg)" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/1936-WhiteshoesandanewChevy.jpg
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: bernsad on November 11, 2012, 05:38:48 am
Great video, Finski.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 11, 2012, 05:54:41 am
I watched the entire thing, it was painful! It almost looks like he had a ‘sleeper’ on the back of the cab.

The cost of that truck is about 2,5 milj. US dollars. That guy has not afford to sleep. He is carefull.
When the truck takes timbers, it sends via internet an information to the factory, what material and how much is coming now.

The harvester make calculations too to computer, what timber quality have been fallen down and how much. The machine measure automatically the store. Then it will be sent to factory.

My farther was in timber works  60 years ago.  Now that harvester makes 70 timber men work in a hour and the ruck makes 70 horses' work.
It spends about 13-15 litres fuel in an  hour,

Forest in the video is about 80 years old. In Argentina the eucapyptus forest grows that size in 6 years.

You may think what are the forces against metal and constructions in the temp -30C


Ponsse Ergo H7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k51nTnUS4yk#ws)


Harvestor ROTTNE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WStTEDlAUZ0#)

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: T Beek on November 11, 2012, 08:19:51 am
 :idunno:  

OK....does any of this have 'anything' to do w/ OP?  I live surrounded by forest, have previously made my living in the woods harvesting logs (a lifetime ago), and witness the destructive nature of the logging industry daily, but for the life of me I don't know what it has to do w/ the original post or bees or beekeeping.  

Help me out  :-\.   :stayontopic:  What is the topic?
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 11, 2012, 08:30:49 am
:idunno:

Help me out  :-\.   :stayontopic:  What is the topic?

No one can help you . Less if we talk under topic. Your understanding about insulation is as poor as  Derekm's

The discussion branch came from an Englishman who insisted that wood cavity has the best insulation.
He is a man who has hardly seen snow on ground. "Extremely harsh winter", said Brother Adam. "Temp may go even under freezing point". WOW

From insulation values we can see that polystyrene foam has 10 times better insulation value than dry wood. And the beehive has allways moist or wet wood.

I should move my hives to log hive?  - So said the Englishman. I wonder why?

But I understand because British beekeepers do not understand meaning of insulation. They ventilate hives like mad.
We in north put holes shut and keep the heat in.
If we want the room dry, we warm up it a little bit and relative air moisture makes the room dry.

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: T Beek on November 11, 2012, 09:11:11 am
My bees survival rate speaks for itself Finski and my winters are every bit as severe as yours, perhaps even worse so I must be doing something right, heh?  Just not according to you, Mr. Know-it-all  :-D. with nothing left to learn  :roll: 

You are a funny man Fin.

Finski;  Why must you always digress to childlike ridicule to prove a point?  Do you really think it helps your position of debate?  Perhaps you behave this way because its easier to slam or denigrate others from so far away as Finland but harder to intelligently debate a subject.....Maybe? 

As someone always 'self-proclaiming' to be a teacher and not a learner, it should be obvious (to me anyway) you have a lot to learn......at least about teaching. 

Its a good thing we don't live closer to each other, don't you think  :evil:?
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 11, 2012, 09:22:01 am
My bees survival rate speaks for itself

Look Beek. I have wintered my bees 50 years without your l help.

Can't you understand that if a human have not learned things in 50 y what to do, perhaps ne does not need that knowledge.

A human learn if he needs that skill. Like you, you have learned all. Nothing to get any more. Some leanr things in 5 years and some in 50 years.

Beekeeping is not so difficult that you do not learn it in 5 years.

 

You are a funny man Fin.

And you are like street dog allways biting and pulling the pant leg.

.


.

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: T Beek on November 11, 2012, 09:25:17 am
Your response was unfortunately, very predictable.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 11, 2012, 09:26:56 am
Your response was unfortunately, very predictable.

You surprices me every time. A man is stupid like a boot. Cannot learn nothing.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Cparagone on November 11, 2012, 11:39:30 am
Subject of this thread is confusing, maybe "we live in USA, so we don't need insulation..... right?"
 Finski is speaking of benefits of poly insulation which is better than wood, a thick tree is better that 3/4inch pine board but no match for poly in -40c temps.
So why all the attacks on finski?
If he has been keeping for so long and successfully, why bash his technique? Sure something may work better for you but it doesn't mean it best for everyone.

I bet the % of Italian bees that survive a tree cavity hive at Finski's latitude are 0%
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: rdy-b on November 11, 2012, 12:46:58 pm
**If we want the room dry, we warm up it a little bit and relative air moisture makes the room dry.**

 I am wondering about the relative air moisture making the room dry--how doses that work
 thanks inadvance-- :lol: RDY-B
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 11, 2012, 02:11:03 pm
**If we want the room dry, we warm up it a little bit and relative air moisture makes the room dry.**

 I am wondering about the relative air moisture making the room dry--how doses that work
 thanks inadvance-- :lol: RDY-B


Ok, you are fooling again.

http://www.ntcinsulation.com/_blog/The_Insulation_Lab/post/MOISTURE,_PSYCHROMETRICS_AND_RELATIVE_HUMIDITY_-_Their_Effect_on_Structure_and_Air_Quality/ (http://www.ntcinsulation.com/_blog/The_Insulation_Lab/post/MOISTURE,_PSYCHROMETRICS_AND_RELATIVE_HUMIDITY_-_Their_Effect_on_Structure_and_Air_Quality/)


Listen to this

Satisfaction - The Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain - from 1988? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbX5dldhJlc#)

.
.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 11, 2012, 02:19:40 pm

So why all the attacks on finski?


OK, I know those guys who try to be smart every time.  

Like this "I am wondering about the relative air moisture making the room dry"  

If a guy has a little bit brains, he knows how to look Wikipedia. But now he has an opportunity to be smart. Like we say here : Älä vielä laakase, naatitaa.

Physics is not best area of those guys. When they say that handfull dry sugar assimilates moisture from the hive, they do not know that winter store releases 10 litres water.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: duck on November 11, 2012, 04:15:13 pm
I would say past a certain threshold, the poly hives might have diminishing returns and wood is sufficient.  Of course I havent kept bees 50 years and have a brain like a caveman. Fire is one of the most amazing things Ive ever seen.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: rdy-b on November 11, 2012, 04:20:44 pm
Are you trying to speak about HUMDITY is that what you mean by relitave moisture--do you mean relative humidity

 you say if we want room dry we add heat--but we already know hot air holds more moisture--RDY-B


Humidity is usually designated in percentage of relative humidity. The percentage is in relation to, or relative to, the total amount of moisture air can hold. 100% relative humidity, or 100% RH, means that the air is holding absolutely as much moisture as it can hold, it is completely saturated.Humidity is also relative to the temperature of the air.Hot air can hold a lot of moisture, where as cold air can hold very little. The measuring of these differences is called “psychrometrics”. I have included a simplified psychrometrics chart that shows the relationship of moisture content and temperature, and the resulting percentage of relative humidity. (This chart is simplified because other factors such as air pressure and elevation have a limited effect on the calculations).
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: rdy-b on November 11, 2012, 04:54:00 pm
The topic is ISULATION -poly hives -wood hives-you bang on about insulation factors
the fact of the mater is there is much more to it beside R VALUE insulation
 :) poly hives are designed to vent from the bottom and moisture is expelled by means of condensation
on the sides of the hive and it runs out the front

wood hive expels moisture out the top by means of top ventilation- :)

 the insulation factor is just tip of iceberg---whats relay going on........ ;)  RDY-B
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 11, 2012, 05:24:09 pm
.
I knew that it was lack of jokes.

In my country air moisture and humidity is the same. We speak too about water content of air.

Mister Wise Guy, what do you say about that:






Resources, Tools and Basic Information for Engineering and Design of Technical Applications!


Custom Search
.
Temperature and Moisture Holding Capacity of Air

The moisture holding capacity of air varies with temperature .
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 11, 2012, 05:34:31 pm
I would say past a certain threshold, the poly hives might have diminishing returns and wood is sufficient.  Of course I havent kept bees 50 years and have a brain like a caveman. Fire is one of the most amazing things Ive ever seen.

Well, a duck thinks that he is a caveman? ..

Where you got that idea?....

(http://www.moviepostersusa.com/images/product_images/popup_images/15089_0.JPG)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: rdy-b on November 11, 2012, 06:15:50 pm
**Mister Wise Guy, what do you say about that:**

 it was your link-- :lol: you are tilting at windmills-- 8-) RDY-B

 DON QUIJOTE DE LA MANCHA (1979) - QUIXOTE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4tFzD13hmc#)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: minz on November 11, 2012, 06:21:29 pm
To finski’s point and the psychrometrics, the warm air rises and hits the cool sides (see chart in the example) but now for argument sake lets say that it is cold outside and the air is cooled to 30 degrees in the hive, on the same graph.  What happens? The water condenses and runs out the front as mentioned (in Heating Ventilation and Air-conditioning (HVAC) we call this ‘ringing the water out of the air’. Now the cold air sinks and gets warmed again.  Now you are on a different curve (less moisture). Heat and moisture transfers from the brood area, cycle continues as long as the temperature is below dew point. 
My point is that a wood hive with a solid bottom would actually ring more water out of a hive than one with better insulation. 
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: rdy-b on November 11, 2012, 06:47:39 pm
**My point is that a wood hive with a solid bottom would actually ring more water out of a hive than one with better insulation.**

 something important to remember is where the condensation takes place--we already know it will be
 the coldest point-which usually in none insulated wood hive is the top-then the dripping takes place
the insulated hive will condense on the sides and water runs down the sides and out the front without soaking the
bees --wood hive without insulation needs to expel moisture out of vent whole at top or sides as long as its above brood cluster
  the insulated hive has to be set up to take advantage of its capacity to function in this manner
we have already had the big debate over drilling vent wholes in poly hives --bad idea--RDY-B
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 12, 2012, 12:55:04 am

My point is that a wood hive with a solid bottom would actually ring more water out of a hive than one with better insulation. 


The smaller the wintering room is, the warmer is the whole interrior.

- during mild weather respiration moisture meets dew pont outside the hive
- in colf weather like -10C part of moisture condensates inside corners of hive,
- in -20C hive forms ice and snow inside the hive. When the weather becomes mild, ice melts and run onto floor.

In wide hive

- condensation happens in the hive but it is not warm enough to dry up. Continuous moisture generates mould in peripheria when temp is above freezing point

"wood hive with a solid bottom would actually ring more water out "

- in wooden hive much of moisture goes into wooden box. In plastic hive all condensated moisture drills onto floor.
Ply wood may take in 30% moisture of its weight.
 When I open the hive for cleansing flight, many hives have 10 mm ice cover on floor and ice sticks hang under frames.
That is bees' life

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: derekm on November 12, 2012, 06:21:02 am
I would say past a certain threshold, the poly hives might have diminishing returns and wood is sufficient.  Of course I havent kept bees 50 years and have a brain like a caveman. Fire is one of the most amazing things Ive ever seen.

wood is sufficent if it is 6" thick and the 40L cavity is over 500mm tall. 
for conventional hives ... poly is outstanding  compared to wood. But it is still a long way off a tree nest.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: derekm on November 12, 2012, 06:23:01 am
The topic is ISULATION -poly hives -wood hives-you bang on about insulation factors
the fact of the mater is there is much more to it beside R VALUE insulation
 :) poly hives are designed to vent from the bottom and moisture is expelled by means of condensation
on the sides of the hive and it runs out the front

wood hive expels moisture out the top by means of top ventilation- :)

 the insulation factor is just tip of iceberg---whats relay going on........ ;)  RDY-B

I hope you are being ironic and just trying to wind up finski
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: oliver on November 12, 2012, 09:15:13 am
I have seen frost & ice collected on the inner cover, also ice balls of dead bees in the brood chamber with full frames of honey untouched, leads me to believe moisture from the hive does collect in the form of ice and frost, then on a warmer day rains inside the hive. I have gone to insulated brood chambers constructed like your house, with screened inner cover, insulated gable, vented outer cover. Have not seen any frost or ice build up with this, or any iceballed bees..dl
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 12, 2012, 10:46:53 am
The topic is ISULATION -poly hives -wood hives-you bang on about insulation factors
the fact of the mater is there is much more to it beside R VALUE insulation
 :) poly hives are designed to vent from the bottom and moisture is expelled by means of condensation
on the sides of the hive and it runs out the front

wood hive expels moisture out the top by means of top ventilation- :)

 the insulation factor is just tip of iceberg---whats relay going on........ ;)  RDY-B

I hope you are being ironic and just trying to wind up finski


Jep. That Rud-y

A man from California speaks about

- insulation - he hardly knows what it means
- poly hive, hardly seen and surely not used
- top of iceberg -  hardly seen
- insulation factor --- what is that

- poly hives are designed to vent from the bottom. Yes, I burned that bottom 24 years ago. I did not know that. Actually mesh floor is for varroa controlling.

I have seen how top of iceberg goes under water. It happens when it rains snow so much that the weight push the top down.


Yep. It is nice to get advices from California how to over winter beehives.
Lets look Los Angeles forecast:


Humid: 53%

mon 22°

night 11°

Tues 27°

12°

Wens 24°

12°

That is a bad winter. We did not have that much heat even in last summer.

Like we say: Our summer is short but with thin cover snow
.
Thurs  24°

13°

Clayton Ca,,,,16°C



19°



20°



18°

Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Jim134 on November 12, 2012, 10:50:00 am
In my country air moisture and humidity is the same.


Finski......
 
Finland, Got it your owe sun to ?  :roll:


      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 12, 2012, 11:12:06 am
.
My place Kouvola Finland

Sun rises  8:09
Sun goes down  15:44
Lenght of day  7 hours 35 minutes
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: T Beek on November 12, 2012, 11:47:48 am
As a moisture absorbant placed above the inner cover and inside an empty super, dry sugar has performed exceptionally well for my bees.  Its a win-win.

Of course I place considerably more than just a 'handful'-its more like between 5 & 10 lbs, so its a few inches deep, and also covered w/ 2" rigid insulation. 

By Spring the sugar is hard as a rock (from the moisture absorbed throughout the winter) and my less well-off bees chow on it until the first flow or it becomes warm enough to feed syrup.

This week I will be covering my hives w/ 1" rigid insulation for the first time after much convincing discussion and debate from this site  ;)
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 12, 2012, 12:00:17 pm
.
No one here use that kind of sugar tricks.  

We use very simple methods.

When you have good advices, why don't you teach Alaska's beeks to keep their colonies alive.


.
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: rdy-b on November 12, 2012, 11:33:16 pm
 there are areas in the USA that experience cold beyond the climate condition of your small village  8-)
you dont have the market cornered on this subject--every year time in time out -you boost about your sorry conditions which you keep bees-you arnt even smart enough to take credit for the real difficulty your region adheres to-
cold is in many many places-your problem is very simple why dont you ever speak about whats really going on-
why is it hard to keep bees in finland -is it the cold--no its the extra month that your bees are confined--thats right
 when you going to change the script- :lol:  :-* RDY-B
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 13, 2012, 02:48:59 am
there are areas in the USA that experience cold beyond the climate condition of your small village  8-)


Says a guy who lives in the hottest village of USA
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: BlueBee on November 13, 2012, 03:20:04 am
OK, I looked up Clayton, CA.  I didn’t realize rdy-b was in the San Francisco area.  It looks like rdy-b is inland enough to get kind of warm in the summer, but nowhere near to the hottest place in the USA.  Finski, you need to check out death valley, CA the next time you’re in America.  It has the highest recorded temperature in the world!  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley)  It might melt our poly hives  :laugh:

Interestingly, it looks like the guy who founded rdy’s town was born in BUGSWORTH, in the UK! 
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 13, 2012, 09:30:59 am

  Finski, you need to check out death valley, CA


RBY is not yet that bad ...but near
Title: Re: We in USA .....need not insulation
Post by: Finski on November 13, 2012, 09:55:59 am



Finski......
 
Finland, Got it your owe sun to ?  :roll:


      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


Well, what to say...

I am guite happy when I see many stages of Amecian talency, like to be pig or widening legs
Our men are good in pig role and women...I say nothing

America's Got Talent 2012 Episode 10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1o3rkC42Ys#ws)