Author Topic: Why hasn't someone invented this? (Read 11897 times)

SgtMaj · « **on:** July 20, 2008, 01:48:51 am »

I'm curious why no one has invented a top feeder container that's as wide as the inside dimensions of the hive, or close to it, so that you could fill it once with several gallons of syrup instead of having to fill the smaller container much more frequently? Am I missing something? Is there some reason they aren't bigger?

Bill W. · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2008, 01:53:22 am »

You mean like this? http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page23.html

I use these for my hives, with the inner cover below it and a shim under the inner cover for a top entrance, since the big open syrup tub adds a lot of humidity.

Robo · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2008, 08:30:40 am »

Miller did.

Here is a commercial plastic version -> http://www.bee-commerce.com/detail.aspx?ID=26

Why I don't like them.
1. You can't easily inspect the hive with them
2. Large quantities of syrup can go moldy
3. Bees have to break cluster to feed
4. Price. Why spend $36 when I can get gallon pickle jars for free. Two inverted over the inner cover is all I need.
5. Ants, bees can't protect the syrup.
6. Bee drowning

Here are my opinions of feeders -> http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/feeder-compare/

SgtMaj · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2008, 08:58:08 am »

That's not quite what I was thinking... but pretty close. I can see what you mean though about how that's not very convenient for inspecting the hive.

JP · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2008, 12:21:09 pm »

I have some miller type, the bees drown in them, not good, I even have some brand new ones, unused because of drownings.

...JP

johnnybigfish · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2008, 12:29:51 pm »

I have the top feeders from Dadants. Brown with a white pc that goes along the sides.
I am now using front feeders( cheapies)..Hard to beat a 3.00 feeder...I changed because of the roaches and the fact that, like Robo said, the syrup doesnt get nasty. The jars do take more time to use, but the syrup ,so far, is always clean till it is all eaten. Some of my hives are now eating a jar a day, and some hives eat a jar every 3 days.
I still like the top feeders I have though, I'm just not using them. Maybe in spring and Fall, when it cools off.
your friend,
john

Michael Bush · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2008, 07:58:14 pm »

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#miller

Michael Bush · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2008, 07:59:54 pm »

Actually C.C. Miller invented it back in the late 1800's.

qa33010 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2008, 12:41:23 am »

If I can't use a jar, tried them last year for the first time and liked them, I am ordering more of these

http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=409

for future use. Top feeders are ungainly if they have more than a certian amount of syrup, but I've not had these crack or break from lifting. But, because they are polystyrene, I've learned that you do have to take some care with not falling on them.

contactme_11 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2008, 01:27:01 am »

Quote from: SgtMaj on July 20, 2008, 01:48:51 am

I'm curious why no one has invented a top feeder container that's as wide as the inside dimensions of the hive, or close to it, so that you could fill it once with several gallons of syrup instead of having to fill the smaller container much more frequently? Am I missing something? Is there some reason they aren't bigger?

I think weight would be your biggest issue. It would be a real pain to have to move a resevoir like that everytime you work on a hive. I would be more interested in designing something that works more like an IV from above.

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2008, 01:34:37 am »

Quote from: contactme_11 on July 22, 2008, 01:27:01 am

Quote from: SgtMaj on July 20, 2008, 01:48:51 am
I'm curious why no one has invented a top feeder container that's as wide as the inside dimensions of the hive, or close to it, so that you could fill it once with several gallons of syrup instead of having to fill the smaller container much more frequently? Am I missing something? Is there some reason they aren't bigger?

I think weight would be your biggest issue. It would be a real pain to have to move a resevoir like that everytime you work on a hive. I would be more interested in designing something that works more like an IV from above.

Sealable freezer bags, already been done.

Pond Creek Farm · « **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2008, 01:17:42 pm »

I started with top feeders from Mann Lake because the dummies book said such a feeder was best. I found that many bees drown, ants were a real issue and it was a pain to move around. top open the hive risked spilling the syrup everywhere. I've not tried the freezer bags but intend to next spring. For now, I keep frame feeders in the lower deep with frame tops as floaters. I have no trouble filling them since I just scoot the upper boxes over a bit and pour in the syrup. I am usually in an out in less than one minute.

Robo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2008, 01:27:16 pm »

Quote from: Pond Creek Farm on July 22, 2008, 01:17:42 pm

I started with top feeders from Mann Lake because the dummies book said such a feeder was best.

How shocking :shock: Since the author also owns bee-commerce and I'm sure they had to make a pretty big investment to create the plastic mold.

Scadsobees · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2008, 01:53:31 pm »

All the different feeders work great in certain circumstances.

The miller feeder, in my opinion, can't be beat in the fall when the temps are still warm, the hive still has a lot of foragers, and you need them to put away 20 lbs of sugar in a week.

It doesn't work so good in the spring when the temps are cool and the foragers few, then inverted jars work much better.

Robo · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2008, 02:03:03 pm »

I find the miller feeder also works best for making comb honey.

Steve M. · « **Reply #15 on:** July 23, 2008, 10:17:02 am »

The only feeder I have tried so far is the ploy top feeder from BetterBee already referenced. I was not too impressed with it. The syrup started to mold, and the Plexiglas piece designed to keep the bees from drowning warped somehow and then the bees started building burr comb up inside it under the Plexiglas....it was just a lot of trouble. I think I am going to try the freezer bag method this year.

--Steve

Scadsobees · « **Reply #16 on:** July 23, 2008, 01:42:29 pm »

Quote from: Robo on July 22, 2008, 02:03:03 pm

I find the miller feeder also works best for making comb honey.

Can I assume that you put honey in it and they use that to make the comb? It never really occurred to me to try that.....

Robo · « **Reply #17 on:** July 23, 2008, 02:30:06 pm »

Quote from: Scadsobees on July 23, 2008, 01:42:29 pm

Quote from: Robo on July 22, 2008, 02:03:03 pm
I find the miller feeder also works best for making comb honey.

Can I assume that you put honey in it and they use that to make the comb? It never really occurred to me to try that.....

Exactly. Let's them fill the super quicker so there is less time to stain, but more importantly it gets them to finish the super if a flow dries up.

SgtMaj · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2008, 04:01:51 am »

What I was thinking about was more along the lines of a jar, with the holes in the cap for feeding through. It occurred to me though, that I could make what I'm thinking about out of any tuppaware typer container that will fit. I'd just need to cut into the lid to glue in a screw on lid to refil it with, and glue on the tuppaware lid to the base to make it air-tight (glue would probably be plummers glue, that stuff is downright incredible). Then just drill or punch the holes in the right area on the bottom. Only problems would be that it would have to be removed from the hive to be refilled, and immediately after refilling, some of it would come streaming out the bottom due to the flexibility of the tuppaware container. But after that it would work the same as the jar. Or I could just use a jar. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, just means popping the top more often than I'd like.

Robo · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2008, 08:46:04 am »

Hives aren't like the Ron Popeil rotisserie ("Set it, and forget it!"). You will want to check on them. Having some big contraption full of sloshing syrup to remove ever time makes it a chore. Why spend the effort and time trying to "invent" a better mouse trap when 2 one gallon pickle jars are hard to beat (and free). Not to mention when the bees find a flow that they are more interested in and not you have gallons of mold syrup to take care of.

SgtMaj · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2008, 09:03:19 am »

My problem with the pickle jars isn't so much their volume, it's their height.

Robo · « **Reply #21 on:** July 24, 2008, 09:08:56 am »

One empty deep or 2 empty mediums cover that and requires no special equipment.

SgtMaj · « **Reply #22 on:** July 24, 2008, 09:15:35 am »

Exactly. That adds an extra foot of height to the hive (using all mediums)... if I want to stack my hives, that makes them 2 feet higher, add in a hive stand and you're talking about a setup I would need a step stool to manage...

However, I've got 3" of space in vented inner cover, so if I can make the feeder wide but less than 3" high, it doesn't add any height to my total setup and allows me to stack hives even when supers are on them without having to use a ladder.

Robo · « **Reply #23 on:** July 24, 2008, 09:44:10 am »

Not sure what you mean by stack hives, can you explain the purpose.

SgtMaj · « **Reply #24 on:** July 24, 2008, 10:48:59 am »

Well, when I split the hive in early spring, I plan to put the split on top of the main hive (facing a diff. direction of course) until I recombine in the fall. The purpose is that I have very limited lateral space in which to place a second hive. stacking them like that will allow me to keep the second hive without trying to find space for it on my property. Of course, as long as I'm keeping the Italians, I'll have to separate them to try and prevent robbing out, but once I make the change to carnolians, I want to stack them vertically.

Robo · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2008, 10:58:23 am »

Man, that makes inspections a real pain in the butt. Is your yard really that small? Beemaster has (had) a tiny yard and he kept a few hives without problem. If so, I'd try to find another location to keep hives.

SgtMaj · « **Reply #26 on:** July 24, 2008, 11:08:20 am »

The yard isn't so small, the problem is that there's very little of it that's not in close proximity to lots of kids, which would undoubtedly cause more trouble than it's worth. Also, locations other than the front yard will put my neighbor's swimming pool in too close a proximity for me to be able to guarantee they wouldn't use it as their water source. Putting it in the front yard not only increases the distance to the pool, but puts the house between them and the pool as an obstacle that would have to be either flown over or around, whereas my provided water source would be much closer with no obstacles to expend energy avoiding. The front yard has the driveway and front door that it needs to be set back several feet from, as well as the side yard in which the neighbor's kids play... that limits my good space to only a few feet.

Wes Sapp · « **Reply #27 on:** July 24, 2008, 03:49:29 pm »

Dude, you're way over thinking this. There's no way to guarantee that the bees won't do what you don't want them to. If you stack the hives on top of each other, when you have to inspect the bottom hive what will you do with the top hive? Set off to the side... if you do that then where will the foragers for that hive go, back to were their hive use to be. So now you have a face full of confused bees looking for their hive. Beekeeping is like life, their's no manual or book that will give you all the answers or tell you exactly what to expect or do. You just have to live it. With that being said, there's no substitute for experience, so listen when it's offered you might not make as many mistakes. I wish I had.

pdmattox · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2008, 08:28:48 pm »

Quote from: SgtMaj on July 24, 2008, 11:08:20 am

The yard isn't so small, the problem is that there's very little of it that's not in close proximity to lots of kids, which would undoubtedly cause more trouble than it's worth. Also, locations other than the front yard will put my neighbor's swimming pool in too close a proximity for me to be able to guarantee they wouldn't use it as their water source. Putting it in the front yard not only increases the distance to the pool, but puts the house between them and the pool as an obstacle that would have to be either flown over or around, whereas my provided water source would be much closer with no obstacles to expend energy avoiding. The front yard has the driveway and front door that it needs to be set back several feet from, as well as the side yard in which the neighbor's kids play... that limits my good space to only a few feet.

The thought of thinking that a house is a obsticle to a bee and is going to make your bees go to your water source and not someone elses is not realistic. The bees are gonna do what the bees want to do and problay are going to goto your neigbors pool for water. It just seems to always go that way anyway.. just my 2 cents. remember the bees are the ones in charge.

SgtMaj · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2008, 11:43:31 pm »

Given, the bees will use the first reliable, good water source they find that season... that being said, placing a water source closer to the hive increases the liklihood of them finding it before the other. The fact that they don't have to expend as much energy transporting the water to the hive, thus using less stores which leaves more for the hive could only have a positive effect on keeping them on the provided water source.

Understand that allowing my bees to become a nusiance to the neighbor's without doing everything within my ability to prevent or lessen their impact on the neighbors is not an option that I deem viable in my situation. Now, IF they are still a nusiance to the neighbors AFTER I've done everything I can to prevent it, I don't have as much of a problem with that (although I would still look at relocating the bees to an area where they would be less of a nusiance) because at least I would not be acting irresponsibly and in a manner that could do more to damage the beekeeper reputation.

rdy-b · « **Reply #30 on:** July 26, 2008, 01:24:02 am »

Bees are funny about there water they pass up on good fresh water and go to the stinky stuff -like chlorine in pool water -reason is because when the bees communicate to each other where the source is they also use the smell to mark it -my friend has a koy pond and the lily pads work perfect-for the bees to take water from - :lol: RDY-B

SgtMaj · « **Reply #31 on:** July 26, 2008, 02:52:10 am »

That is a good point, but I'm not sure how to make the provided water source stink in that way... perhaps there is some sort of device that would hook up to the feed hose to insert the proper chemicals as the water drips... I'll have to check into that.

rdy-b · « **Reply #32 on:** July 27, 2008, 01:44:01 am »

What feed hose :? drop of bleach to a gallon or drop of lemongrass- thats what was so good about the koa pond it smells of a frog pond the bees realy love it and dont need to add anything -except the fish and some tules 8-) RDY-B

SgtMaj · « **Reply #33 on:** July 27, 2008, 02:08:11 am »

It's impossible to keep bird baths filled with water around here... even if you fill them every morning they'll be empty by the afternoon. Too hot I recon. Anyway, that would only make the pool look even more attractive.

buzzbee · « **Reply #34 on:** July 27, 2008, 07:15:48 am »

Get a piece of lumber. Get a hose with a nozzle at the end. screw the nozzle on the hose. turn on the water.Loosen the hose end from the hose enough to let a trickle of water out. lay it on the board.Tilt the board in the air to let the water barely move across it. As it gets saturated,the bees will gather water from it.
Placing it too close to the hive will almost assure they will fly past it to another water source.
I have a small statuary fountain on the rear patio that the bees use all the time.However they will go about anywhere.
this is a rubber water dish I got at the farm store,when it's hot it gets real busy and i keep it in the partial shade.

And here is the fountain they spend a lot of time at: