Manley sizing a viable option to standardize on?

[SB-Russ]

Hey all,

So I'd like to start my beekeeping with standard hive sizing. Now I know I'll need to cater for some full size gear as that's probably how Nucs will come when I find a bee supplier but due to weight issues and a bad back, I'd like to pick WSP, Manley (or is it Manly? Seen it spelled both ways) or Ideal sizing for most of my stuff.

I was leaning towards Ideal, as it seems to be the second most common size in Aus, but my local supplier (25 minutes away) only has Ideal boxes, not frames :( They do have Manley boxes & frames, as well as WSP, but my second closest supplier (90 minutes away) has no Manley gear, but they do have Ideal & WSP.

I was also leaning towards 8 frame, even though 10 frame accessories etc are easier to find, so am in two minds on that one. Another variable is that after I get two or three standard hives setup, I will be getting a Flow hive as well, which is 8 frame full depth gear.

I'd rather buy local and a 25 minute drive is much more palatable than 90 minutes, but they are also a small rural supplier, whereas the others are a large  Brisbane supplier, so longer term availability is likely to be better in Brisbane.

I just don't want to shoot myself in the foot, by making my initial investment in Manley gear, and finding I have to change down the track.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.
Russell.

[amun-ra]

Im in Townsville and I use a combo of full and half height frames
2 fit in extracter baskets
2 half boxes hold full height frames
easy to lift when full its up to you
half foundationless frames make great cut comb

[SB-Russ]

Yeah half does have those advantages, and I did consider them early on, but the smaller you go, the more expensive it ends up being, by needing more frames & hive bodies to get the same volume of bees & honey. Also, half height availability down here seems even more erratic than the others.

[Michael Bush]

Back surgery is not cheap...

[kalium]

If you only have a few hives you could get away with deeps. There are ways to get around having to lift a full deep.

You don't even have to split by the box, you could just pull frames to avoid lifting a full depth.

Having said all that, I am only using 10 frame Ideals going forward. It's more work and money to build them,
but my back is more important..Maybe if I get a fancy hive lifter I would change my mind.

[SB-Russ]

Eh, I guess there is no perfect solution, I just have to pick a size and live with it.

Amun-Ra makes some compelling arguments for half-size, and I imagine going foundationless, the smaller the frame the more secure it is when extracting and inspecting. Reviewing my supplier lists again, my local has neither supers nor frames in half depth, so I'd be travelling to get anything this size.

I don't plan to be running a commercial setup, so really I would think I'd only be taking frames a couple at a time to extract, so I don't know how big an issue is for carrying long distances, it's more removing to inspect brood when I'd be picking up a whole box. But that's easy to say when I've no experience. If I start and like it a lot, I'm sure the bug will bite, so to speak, and I'll end up wanting to expand my hive numbers a lot, in which case weight becomes more of an issue.

I guess no matter what I do, somewhere along the line I'll regret my decision and think the grass is greener on the other side. If I start small, I'll probably wish I could get bigger yields quicker, or regret having spent my spare cash and not be able to afford more gear. If I start deep, I'll regret the weight. If I start in between, I'll regret availability and/or the two-in-1 adaptability of half height.

Have I mentioned already that I suffer analysis-paralysis a lot?? 

[SB-Russ]

So I'm back, and still fence-sitting.

Someone elsewhere said that you can't fit a full depth frame into two half depth boxes, or at least not without a lot of trouble. I didn't get a clarification on why. Anybody have any idea what that would be about? Amun-ra certainly doesn't indicate that's an issue.

I've almost been swayed back to Manley size, as the decreased cost and handling over Ideal size seems to outweigh the slight weight decrease between Manley & Ideal. I realise Ideal gear is probably more used at large, but Manley is much easier for me to get locally, if my supplier doesn't run out.

Still, I'm left with the dilemma of transitioning between Full Depth when I buy Nucs, and if I want to sell Nucs down the track, making them up if my bees aren't on Full Depth to start. I realise I can start with my size frames and transition them out as the full depths build up, but that would significantly increase build-up time, wouldn't it?

[little john]

Hello Russell

I sympathise with anyone about to begin beekeeping, as there are so many options available 'out there' and just about every beekeeper has his or her own opinions about what kit is the best to use ...

I would say it's important not to tie yourself to one supplier, no matter how local he might happen to be - if he should ever stop trading, what would happen then ? My advice would be to choose the most common format used within your country - especially as you are considering selling a few nucs yourself later on. Boxes and frames can always be delivered 'flat-pack' - so distance needn't necessarily be a crucial factor when deciding.

How are your wood-working skills ?  With beekeeping it really pays to be able to make at least some of your own kit.
For example - in your situation, if faced with choosing either deep or medium boxes - I'd always go with the shallower of the two. Then, if you ever needed a deeper box, it can always be created by simply making an eke to fit underneath whatever depth box you already have.

You seem to be concerned about the possibility of wasting money on unsuitable gear - and I certainly understand that one ! - and yet you talk about buying a Flow Hive. That's a very expensive and unnecessary piece of kit for any beginner to be talking about purchasing.
I'd advise - buy some standard kit - and get yourself started. See how it goes with just a couple of hives, and only THEN think about enlargement, Flow Hives, selling nucs, and all the rest.  Do you have any neighbours who are beekeepers ? There's a lot to be said for copying the type of equipment used by neighbours, especially in the early days, as any rescue missions would then be simplified.

If you already have a bad back - it would certainly be wise to consider hives which do not require the lifting of full-depth, or even full-width boxes. So - we're talking Long Hives (where individual frames are lifted out, not boxes of frames); conventional hives with full-width shallow boxes; or conventional hives with half-width boxes above the bottom box - of whatever depth you can easily manage the weight of.
I'm currently converting all my conventional hives to half-width upper boxes, but I still run a large number of Long Hives. There's nothing to stop a beekeeper having several such formats in an apiary, as each hive type has it's own merits - although it does make life so much easier if just the one size of frame is used throughout.

Best of luck with the decision-making ...

LJ

[SB-Russ]

Thanks for the input little john.

I could make boxes easily,mframes would be harder. Problem is sourcing wood thats cheaper than the hive kits. So if my supplier did run out, I could still make my own gear, and there are other suppliers with Manley size by mail order, but postage in Aus is extremely expensive.

The Flow Hive, yes well, my wife actually made that purchase, and while it was a bit expensive, I don't regret it, as it was the added incentive I needed to finally male me commit to keeping bees. My plan now is to get started and learn with regular gear, and it will just be an add-on once I'm going. It is 8 frame deep boxes, so it would be best to have some gear compatible with that too. Maybe there's just no way to completely standardise, but I do still have to make a decision on where to start.