Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: psbeekeeper on October 06, 2009, 12:22:14 pm

Title: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: psbeekeeper on October 06, 2009, 12:22:14 pm
Which way of feeding would be best when feeding during and/or before winter?  Feeding sugar on top of newspaper in the hive or fondant?
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Robo on October 06, 2009, 12:35:08 pm
It all comes down to personal preference and availability.   Most folks just can't run to the store and buy a block of fondant, and then there are also those that don't like feeding HFCS to their bees.

Dry sugar is readily available to everyone.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: psbeekeeper on October 06, 2009, 01:35:52 pm
Does the sugar on the newspaper absorb most of the moisture contents inside the hive thus not having cold water drip on the bees, or does the cover still need to be lifted slightly to overcome the moisture problem?
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 01:52:39 pm
.
That dry sugar + newspaper play is mere shildren game. It is not serious beekeeping.

In my country 100% of beekeeprs feed with sugar the hives. Honey is like sugar syrup and it must be capper  before winter.

Our bees live with sugar 8 months in year. Fondant and dry sugar frame are used in spring as emergency feeding.

When I have been in US and British bee forum, members have moslty totallly wrrong knowledge about heat economy of hive and about moisture control.

Feeding bees with sugar is the most simple thing in beekeeping but folks invent all kind of tricks to mix simple case.


I feed on average 20 kg sugar to hives. To one langstroth hive takes that amount in 2 days. Then it depens on out temperature, how fast they cap the food. With that system hives live from Sptember to March and I need not to touch hives. Inspection does not help because during our winter we cannot do nothing. So we must feed the hives so that they survive over snow period.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 06, 2009, 02:00:55 pm
it's kind of the same where i live.  i don't open the hives unless we have one of those very rare warmer days, then i only pop the top cover to check the dry sugar.

i don't think all people understand that the dry sugar is not a substitute for getting the hives in good shape to go into winter.  i use the dry sugar for two reasons 1.  i have very wet winters and it does absorb some of the moisture.  2.  if we have really bad winters and springs, i will not look into my hives for many months.  the damp dry sugar will hold them until i can feed syrup.

a lot of people use sugar on newspaper.  i do not.  i use it on the top of the inner cover.  i don't want damp newspaper in my hive.  i can check the inner cover more quickly than checking inside.  
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 02:05:14 pm
.
Emergency feeding

When bees have in March first cleansing flight, it is time to weight with hand, does  it have food enough for next winter month. I can take capped sugar frames from those hive which has too much or I pour syrup directly into combs. If I have cryztallized honey frames, I may give them.

Many use fondant or dry sugar frame after cleansing flight. You may ut upper feeder on hive too and give 5 kg sugar as 65% syrup.

If bees have not made cleansing flight, they disturb them selves and start to bust on frost snow. Thousans will be dead.

I have disturbed the wintering hive and I measured its temperature. It rised to +40C. 12 hours later it was  32C and 24 hours later 23C.


.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 02:16:36 pm
,
Sugar will not handle the moisture thing in the hive. It is relative humidity and temperature which keep the hive dry.

Warm air can keep more misture than cool. The extra moisture condensates on the most cold surfaces.

Bees generates heat. If you put digital thermometer inside the cluster, the temp is 23C. If they have brood, temp is 32C.

The heat escapes from the cluster, and hives duty is to stop that heat flow outside.
The smaller the room of bees, the warmer is interior of hive and the dryer is the atmosphere.

Moisture makes propbems.  I have noticed that in moist conditions 100% of colonies get very bad nosema.
In open air I  put upper entrance open. In cellar wintering it must be electrict ventilation to get fresh air circulation .

If I have no snow, like Ochtober to December, and in April, there is no problem about moisture. Bees are in winter cluster. But in Arril the cluster temp is 10C higher and there are no moisture problems.

If the hive has plenty of extra room, it is cool and the respiration moisture concensates inside the hive.





Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 02:22:03 pm
.
In winter it is important to put the hive slant a little bit forwarnd that condensation eater comes out from the hhive. Some make slanting bottom boards.

Mesh floor handles the moisture problem with other mechanism but you should protect the bottom against wind. I do not use mesh bottoms. With mesh floor you do not use upper entrance.

Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 06, 2009, 02:30:03 pm
i use mesh floors and slant the hive.  you probably have cold and dry.  i have cold and wet.  the sugar on the top of the inner cover does absorb some of that moisture.  i never have to dampen my sugar, but it gets damp none the less.    our rain comes sideways  :-)

last year was much better.  we got more snow than rain.  it was a pleasant change in some ways.  100% relative humidity day after day gets old.....
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Robo on October 06, 2009, 02:53:31 pm
Does the sugar on the newspaper absorb most of the moisture contents inside the hive thus not having cold water drip on the bees, or does the cover still need to be lifted slightly to overcome the moisture problem?

Yes, the sugar will absorb moisture. Set a bag on the concrete floor and see what happens.  "Most" is subjective to how much additional water you pump into the hive feeding syrup.  In all my feral colony removals, I have yet to find one that is not sealed up as tight as can be and I've never seen one with winter moisture issues.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 03:17:39 pm


Yes, the sugar will absorb moisture. Set a bag on the concrete floor and see what happens.  

I have handeled sugar and wintered bees 47 years. But never put dry sugar over winter.

I use fructose in my patties because it catchs moisture from hive.

My opinion is that when bees uncap combs in the hive, it takes moisture from aira and so bees get "drinking" water in the hive even if they cannot come out during 5 months.

When I give syrup to hives, they dry up the syrup during  one week anbd start to cap cells.
Bees ventilate moisture away. And you must feed them in time that weathers are good to do the job.

Moisture comes from sugar when bees "burn" it in theirs bodies. When the hive has 25 kg winterfood, it generates 10 kg water in respiration.

Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 06, 2009, 03:19:25 pm
well, look at it this way.....of all the things we do, or don't do, dry sugar is probably pretty harmless.  if it works, great.  if it doesn't, the hive is lost anyway if they run out of food.  no harm done by the sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 03:27:06 pm
well, look at it this way.....of all the things we do, or don't do, dry sugar is probably pretty harmless.  if it works, great.  if it doesn't, the hive is lost anyway if they run out of food.  no harm done by the sugar.

So it works in mild climates. Well, my hives do not run out of food because I feed them enough and   with 47 years experience.
Syrup feeding is the most simple job in the world. My feeding box is 8 litres and bees suck it in 12 hours.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: psbeekeeper on October 06, 2009, 03:33:54 pm
Sooo.. what would be my best bet of feeding in my climate of area?  I would just like it for my hive to make it this winter since I lost my other one   :-\
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 06, 2009, 03:35:04 pm
finski, if keep being patient with me, i hope to last long enough to get that many years of experience.   :whip:

Be patient, for the world is broad and wide.

Shakespeare-Romeo and Juliet

 :-D
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 06, 2009, 03:37:22 pm
Finski,
I ate some popcorn and bit my lip awhile back as you were suggesting that unless you live at the same latitude as you, that others may not know what they were speaking of.

For the past year, I heard boo-hoo about "finski" being somehow being upset and taking his ball and going home. But yet time and time again, I see you denigrate others, calling what others do, less than what you do. On this thread alone, calling people who use sugar or fondant a "shildrens game" is not only insulting, but perhaps not relevant, seeing your not from Pennsylvania. I say whooopdidooooo! on whether your bees eat sugar 8 months of the year. Nobody in Pennsylvania has bee eat sugar that long.

It may not be "serious" beekeeping to you, but perhaps you should bite your lip a bit. I am freakin dead serious about my beekeeping, even if less than 100% of beekeeper here do not use sugar...as if that matters. Calling what others do as "Not serious" beekeeping is again, insulting.

You suggested that because others did not live as far north as you when the beekeeper from Alaska was seeking advice, making their advise was somewhat irrelevant. But would not your advise be just as irrelevant based on the same suggestion that your advice is for much further north climates?

psbeekeeper,
Being FROM Pennsylvania I feed fondant. I can place a 50 lb block on a very light hive and they will feed off the fondant block for 3-4 months till the weather breaks. Fondant does not inject moisture into the hive as syrup does. I place on the inner cover hole, and they will eat up thorough, using the available moisture, while your not breaking the propolis seal or opening up the hive after the initial placing of the block.

May I suggest you go with Robo's advice or other beekeepers in YOUR area that can make suggestions based on previous experiences in the same environment as you. I am sure they are serious about beekeeping and it is not some "shildrens game".

Here is a picture of fondant on the inner cover. It is 25 pounds....

(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/beepictures200.jpg)
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 03:56:36 pm
.
I wonder where have you get idea that syrup slit moisture into the hive? That is nonsence.
Bees dry up the syrup and cap it.

That is one of your domestic errors in your beekeeping knowledge.
Fondant is same sugar and when in burns to carbondiokside and water in bees body, it 25 pounds fondant makes 9 pounds water.  Bearbee, maybe you are clever but not enough.


(http://bioweb.wku.edu/courses/BIOL115/Wyatt/Metabolism/Respiration.gif)
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: charmd2 on October 06, 2009, 03:58:18 pm
Well said Bjorn.   I was eating popcorn too.  

I use dry sugar on the top of mine.  I am just a mere beginner in the light of all the experience on here, and this will only be my second winter.  But.....   I figure a twenty lb bag of sugar on top of newspaper in a shallow is a good precaution incase they use more than I leave them.   My bees do not take the "20 kg of feed" in two days.   I do not have that equipment available to me.  I merely have a gallon jug on top of the hives.

 and I'm betting that six of my eight hives are going to be going into winter to light anyway.   Feed as I might, they are using it as I'm giving it to them.  Our weather has been anything but stellar this year.  So I will give dry sugar, cross my fingers, and hope that most make it through the winter.  
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 04:00:31 pm
.
Do you have really winter in Missouri and difficulties to get bees over winter?

I read here once that dandelions bloom in January in Texas. Our dandelions bloom at the beginning of June  28.5 - 10.6. First flowers will be open in willows first of May.

Popcorn makes me fart.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: charmd2 on October 06, 2009, 04:03:39 pm
Not compared to Finland..   My bees fly on average once every other week during the winter.  But I will go from now until approximately the end of march with no blooming plants. 
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2009, 04:06:11 pm
. But what we do not do in Finland is that we do not feed syrup to bees in summer.
Bees get they food from nature.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 06, 2009, 04:19:03 pm
i don't get even dandelion bloom until April.

finskis wintering advice has been very helpful to many of us.  perhaps something is lost in translation, or you have not had enough conversations with him to read what he writes in the spirit it is intended.

Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BeeHopper on October 06, 2009, 04:19:21 pm
Without getting into the pissing match, I use Fondant as BjornBee does with great success ( Thanks BjornBee ) I buy from a bakery supply in Lancaster, Pa., at 35.50 per 50 lbs., it sure beats making it. Again, it is a matter of preference. The prices are sure to go up as sugar commodities have risen this month.  :)

Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 06, 2009, 04:26:48 pm
Finski,
The original question was about feeding not just going into winter, but feeding though it.

And before you pull out your next knee jerk reaction response, such as noting how many years you have kept bees, how about slowing down and actually reading what others are saying.

My comment about moisture with fondant was that of comparing it to syrup feeding, which is a huge problem for many beekeepers. Perhaps NOT in Finland, as you have already stated that all beekeepers feed sugar.

Most here mix up either 2/1 or 1.1 syrup. That would be either 33% or 50% moisture "base". It's not about dragging out your favorite equation and how you can suggest 9 pounds of water for 25 of feed. It is recognizing that feeding syrup many times means having bees storing it in open cells. Unlike honey or solid based feeds (sugar or fondant) the moisture alone from frames of open syrup, injects a serious amount of moisture into the hive, WITHOUT even getting to what the bees are putting off.

I have seen many dead hives after a beekeeper has fed all winter long and the syrup sits in open frames injecting moisture into the hive. Your talking about apples, while others are talking about oranges. Difference is, you keep attacking others for suggesting things contrary to what you are saying.

So save me your denigrating "your clever but not enough". I'm sure others are about feeling the same way of how you speak.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 06, 2009, 04:31:32 pm
i don't get even dandelion bloom until April.

finskis wintering advice has been very helpful to many of us.  perhaps something is lost in translation, or you have not had enough conversations with him to read what he writes in the spirit it is intended.



Cathy,
I think his writing is very clear.
It starts as passing knowledge and speaking of one's experiences.
Then it goes into denigrating others who are not on the same page.
Then it goes into how many years one has bees. (a classic way to belittle others in conversation)
Then it goes just into attack mode and claiming others are not clever enough as he keep firing away.

Way too much for a simple "translation" slip of thr tongue.

Sorry Cathy....I don't buy it..... ;)

Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 06, 2009, 04:33:09 pm
Without getting into the pissing match, I use Fondant as BjornBee does with great success ( Thanks BjornBee ) I buy from a bakery supply in Lancaster, Pa., at 35.50 per 50 lbs., it sure beats making it. Again, it is a matter of preference. The prices are sure to go up as sugar commodities have risen this month.  :)


Thanks beehopper,
Last batch was 36.10 and I think it will go up next week also.  :-P
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BeeHopper on October 06, 2009, 04:45:57 pm
Without getting into the pissing match, I use Fondant as BjornBee does with great success ( Thanks BjornBee ) I buy from a bakery supply in Lancaster, Pa., at 35.50 per 50 lbs., it sure beats making it. Again, it is a matter of preference. The prices are sure to go up as sugar commodities have risen this month.  :)


Thanks beehopper,
Last batch was 36.10 and I think it will go up next week also.  :-P



 Donna Q. gave me the 35.50 price last monday (the 28th ) when our group picked up 10 cases, still not a bad price at 36.10  :-\
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 06, 2009, 05:10:20 pm
Without getting into the pissing match, I use Fondant as BjornBee does with great success ( Thanks BjornBee ) I buy from a bakery supply in Lancaster, Pa., at 35.50 per 50 lbs., it sure beats making it. Again, it is a matter of preference. The prices are sure to go up as sugar commodities have risen this month.  :)


Thanks beehopper,
Last batch was 36.10 and I think it will go up next week also.  :-P



 Donna Q. gave me the 35.50 price last monday (the 28th ) when our group picked up 10 cases, still not a bad price at 36.10  :-\


Ok, fair enough.....36.10 dropped off in my driveway.... :-D
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: jclark96 on October 06, 2009, 05:18:36 pm
I have not decide what I am going to do this year, probably fondant. I am in coastal NC, I am not sure how cold or for how long. My one hive is very light.
I think there is a fundamental error in thinking that a long cold winter is harder to prepare for. Why do winter bees live alot longer than summer bees? When all your bees are doing for months on end is clustering, they use only what they need to maintain warmth. I had bees in Alabama that never had a break in the brood cycle, raised brood all winter long, mandating a warmer hive. There have also been times when it would warm up here, the bees would start raising brood, then it would cool off and kill all of the brood, requiring the bees to clean out the hive in winter. I don't think one size fits all.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: psbeekeeper on October 06, 2009, 05:38:28 pm
Do you know if the bakery place in Lancaster has a website?  (stupid question).
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 06, 2009, 05:49:10 pm
Do you know if the bakery place in Lancaster has a website?  (stupid question).

www.conolt.com
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Sparky on October 06, 2009, 09:12:39 pm
BjornBee. when you buy the fondant will it have any flavorings that should be avoided. Is the vanilla OK ?
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 06, 2009, 09:37:48 pm
sparky,
I do know that "fondant" comes in many forms and with varying ingredients. The stuff I get is from Dawn Foods, and has three ingredients...sugar, HFCS, and water. Nothing else.

I would think anything else added would not be good for bees going through winter.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: bud1 on October 06, 2009, 10:24:50 pm
Finsky; sure glad to see you back on it has always been a plasure to read your post and have acess to your knowledge. and dont pay any attention to those who are always trying to prove something that if it is not their way then it is wrong.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 07, 2009, 12:44:54 am
Finsky; sure glad to see you back on it has always been a plasure to read your post and have acess to your knowledge. and dont pay any attention to those who are always trying to prove something that if it is not their way then it is wrong.

To be in this forum is waste of time. You  stories  have not changed for 5 years.
Many of you have too easy climate to play tricky games.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: lenape13 on October 07, 2009, 02:13:01 am
I, for one, do not find this forum to be a waste of time. 
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 07, 2009, 07:45:44 am
I, for one, do not find this forum to be a waste of time.  

Lenape,
Translation is the key..... ;)

As Cathy said "perhaps something is lost in translation, or you have not had enough conversations with him to read what he writes in the spirit it is intended."

So lets look at the comment ....."To be in this forum is waste of time. You  stories  have not changed for 5 years.
Many of you have too easy climate to play tricky games."

Now for the translation...... Well Friends, lets agree to disagree. I acknowledge that you have much different climate than I do. And while I have heard the same stories for 5 years now, many new faces are reading this for the first time, perhaps making it far less than the waste of time I feel rehashing the same conversation over and over. While I am a professional beekeeper with 37 years of experience under my belt, many of you keep bees in only a "hobbyist" situation in warmer climates than I, allowing you to play tricky games, to which I do not have that luxury. May peace be with all of you, and remember "It is never too late to listen, learn, and take part in conversations with those with far less experienced than yourself". May those trying new techniques learn along the way, and be willing to pass on not just the success, but the failures also. Many changes and better ways will come about in the years to follow, as there is no way I have learned all there is about the bees. P.S....I enjoyed the conversation with BjornBee, as he really seems like a nice guy. Cheers!

That's the way I read it..... :roll:
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 07, 2009, 09:20:15 am
[ "It is never too late to listen, learn, and take part in conversations with those with far less experienced than yourself".

My advice: If some do not need advice, it is same even if angels tell it. Waste of time.

Wide country, wide tolerances.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: BjornBee on October 07, 2009, 10:10:39 am
[ "It is never too late to listen, learn, and take part in conversations with those with far less experienced than yourself".

My advice: If some do not need advice, it is same even if angels tell it. Waste of time.

Wide country, wide tolerances.

Waste of time???

Knowing that hundreds of people will read this forum, then it may be best to be mature enough to realize that some will take the advice, some will not. Advice is best given with NO expectations of acceptance on anyone's part. To give advice, then call everyone idiots because they do not take it, is very wrong. Are you serious in thinking giving advice is a waste of time, if some do not need it? It is not an "all or nothing" thing in giving advice. Heck....maybe even YOU with your 47 years experience could learn something by such discussions, if you were willing to stop bashing everyone.

Wide country, wide tolerances???

What country are you talking about now? Is it the same country you suggested that most beekeepers were idiots with comments such as this tidbit given back on page one.....

"When I have been in US and British bee forum, members have mostly totally wrong knowledge about heat economy of hive and about moisture control."

It is so nice for you to come here, judge, belittle, and make innuendos on such grand scales.



Sorry Lenape...This was the best I could do.... :roll:

I'll be an "angel" now, and this will be my last post on this thread. I know when a good discussion has run it's course...... :-D
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 07, 2009, 11:00:06 am
bjornbee, if you ever met finski i think you two would be good friends.  you seem to be very much alike!
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: lenape13 on October 07, 2009, 01:10:38 pm
I would REALLY like to comment further, but in my culture, if you have nothing good to say about something or someone, you either keep silent, or say something harmless like, "It's okay, he's from ________, and that's what they do."  I have always had problems with the keeping silent, so I will simply say, "It's okay, he's from _________________, and that's what they do.....      :roll: :evil: 8-)
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 07, 2009, 01:30:14 pm
.
I själva verket  björnbee är som in i röv skjutat björn.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Scadsobees on October 07, 2009, 01:52:05 pm
میں نے خیال نہیں کیا اور نہ ہی یہ کہہ رہے ہیں کہ اپ مجھے واقعی توجہ نہیں دی.

 :-D

(That is Urdu for roughly "I have no idea what you are saying, nor do I really care." from freetranslation.com but it probably translated to something more like "I have emus on you say, but I kiss donkeys")

How about

Minulla on et ajatus, mikä sinä sanot, eikä tee minä todella välittää.

or

Jag har ingen idè som du säger, eller gör jag verkligen mig bryr om.

But then again I only know English, so freetranslation.com probably inserted some horrible insult in there...

 :-D

 :buttkick:

Now lets put the guns, swords and pens down and all get along.

 :cheer:

We're all a little different (and some of us are more different than most!) and everybody does things differently.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 07, 2009, 02:02:37 pm
.
Try google translator
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Irwin on October 07, 2009, 02:26:41 pm
bjornbee, if you ever met finski i think you two would be good friends.  you seem to be very much alike!
:-D
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: buzzbee on October 07, 2009, 06:43:40 pm
Lets not start bashing others opinions here. The question was:
Which way of feeding would be best when feeding during and/or before winter?  Feeding sugar on top of newspaper in the hive or fondant?
I am sure there are successes with both ways. What are the pros and cons I think is the better question. If you can't answer without name calling or beliitling someone,please find a thread you can do so.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: David LaFerney on October 07, 2009, 08:01:44 pm
bjornbee, if you ever met finski i think you two would be good friends.  you seem to be very much alike!
@Irwin
OK.  I gotta say.  Your avatar freaks me out.  Please tell me it's just a Halloween thing.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: psbeekeeper on October 08, 2009, 12:45:35 am
@buzzbee

Can you answer those questions?
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 08, 2009, 01:11:56 am
ps, i'll take a crack at it. 

the best way to feed is to feed syrup early enough to get them ready for winter.  the second best is probably fondant, but not all of us have access to it, or care to make it.  dry sugar is an emergency food source. 

i use it after i have fed syrup to hold any hives that get light before i get a chance to check them.  fondant is usually used the same way.

use either as a back-stop to the syrup feeding you should have already done.  if you live a dry winter climate and use dry sugar, you need to moisten it a bit for the bees.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 08, 2009, 01:41:35 am
.
Well said Kathyp.

It would be good to US beekeeping if you have advices according climate.

But with your jar system autumn will be over before bees get enough food. Get normal upper feeders and they will take syrup in 3 days.

I have noticed that in Alaska your beekeeping systems are like in deep South. That is why they kill
hives and bye new in spring and start from beginning. At the level of Anhorage we have in Finland a beekeeper who has 3000 hives. He sells for example hives to England.

But now, I leave again you in peace. You have your own tricks.
It is so different continent that from Brasil to Alaska tundra no one else can say any usefull there.
It is same in England too. They rare so special and nothing to learn. Many preferto go back 200 with his their tp bars.

Happy feeding to all of you! In summer you feed syrup and in winter dry sugar!
Your winter dead rate is a quite high  40% but such is life.

.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 08, 2009, 03:47:38 am
.
Need to learn?

Europe have used polyhives 20 years. Now Canada try is it possible to use them.

Europe have done over 10 years varroa researches like trickling, and USA do the same experiments now.

If you are big enough, you need to learn from others.

I have got my knowledge from american beekeeping. Thanks to your magazines.

Still I say that your insulation and relative moisture knowledge is on childrens'  level.
Try to learn, how it really is.

But beekeepers need macgic and humbug. Otherwise it is not worth living.

Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 08, 2009, 07:11:10 am
.
Best, what I learned about feeding this year

is to use pulsator loundry machine in syrup making.  It was marvellous. Timer on, and it mixed the sugar into hot water.
40 kg sugar + 20 litre water.

(http://www3.jkl.fi/ksmuseo/haloo/rakennus/kuvat/pesukone.jpg)
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Irwin on October 08, 2009, 07:49:06 am
bjornbee, if you ever met finski i think you two would be good friends.  you seem to be very much alike!
@Irwin
OK.  I gotta say.  Your avatar freaks me out.  Please tell me it's just a Halloween thing.
Yes just for October :-D
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Robo on October 08, 2009, 09:09:41 am
Which way of feeding would be best when feeding during and/or before winter?  Feeding sugar on top of newspaper in the hive or fondant?

My 2¢

Feed 2-1 syrup up until the weather doesn't allow them to ripen it.   Around here, I stop feeding syrup around October 1st.  I normally only feed those that need it in the month of September.    After this point any hives that still need feed get either dry sugar on newspaper directly on the top bars,  or a candy board in place of an inner cover (nucs get candy frame). You can also pour dry sugar on top of the inner cover around the hole,  but the bees can still starve if they don't get warm enough weather to break cluster to get to the food.  By placing it on the top bars, the cluster can move right to it.

As far as Fondant goes,  some folks like it some folks don't.   I don't want to get into the debate of HFCS in this thread, you can do a search and find all the discussions pertaining to GM and neonicotinoids and make your own decisions. There has also been a recent study that showed HFCS heated to 120F has a dramatic jump in HMF levels (the same stuff that is bad for bees when you heat honey). Of course,  there are debates back and forth on both sides of this, so another decision for you to make.  I have heard from others who claim, given a choice, the bees will choose sugar syrup over HFCS.  Some find working/handling Fondant to be easier than sugar, but it is not as readily available and cost a little more.

So, syrup should be first choice if weather permits,  then dry sugar or Fondant depending on your personal preference.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 08, 2009, 10:36:55 am

 There has also been a recent study that showed HFCS heated to 120F has a dramatic jump in HMF levels (the same stuff that is bad for bees when you heat honey).


On another hand, I tried one year to make syrup in cold water and the sugar content remain too low. They were not able to dry up the syrup fast enough and cap the food, and I met losses.

Jep. it is really low temp, 49C. 

55C is a water temp, whic hand feel it burns, but it does not make damage to the skin.

I have heated my syrup water usually something to 80C and then mixed sugar in it. - I do not say that tens of years and so have done another beekeepers too.

I have not noticed that my bees feel bad even if they use that syrup from September to May. I have not heard anybody else to say
that this is something which make winter damages.

Like potato, it is in theory poisonous to human(sonalium), but real life shows that human stands that poison.

If you feed hives too late, it is too late. You have a long time to do that, why don't you do that.

When it is time to enlarge hive, you must do that. Otherwise you loose your foragers in swarming. Whose fault is that.
It is same in all farming. You must act in time.







Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Robo on October 08, 2009, 11:00:35 am
Finski,

You talk apples to oranges.   My comment on HMF was for high fructose corn syrup, not sugar syrup.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 08, 2009, 11:12:11 am
Finski,

You talk apples to oranges.   My comment on HMF was for high fructose corn syrup, not sugar syrup.

Understanding goes better and better.
Some guys here have feeded molasses, and all hives have died.

Yes, to feed hives is one of the most difficult thing in  beekeeping. I just wonder how.
At least it has become worse during last 5 years.

Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Dubhe on October 08, 2009, 02:11:23 pm
Ok, enough is enough.  I've always enjoyed Fin's contributions, but I've always taken them for what they were worth.  The truth is that he's from Finland about as much as I'm from Slovakia.  Some of his posts are in broken English and some show a better command of language than William Safire.  HE'S MESSING WITH YOU ALL.  Get it?  Finski is probably a duplicate user name for another board member who enjoys goofing with us all.

Mess away Fin, I'm enjoying the show.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 08, 2009, 02:24:57 pm
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,23232.0.html
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Robo on October 08, 2009, 03:05:32 pm
HE'S MESSING WITH YOU ALL.  Get it?  Finski is probably a duplicate user name for another board member who enjoys goofing with us all.

His IP info

inetnum:         80.222.0.0 - 80.223.255.255
netname:         SONERA-FINLAND-BBNET
descr:           Broadband access pool
descr:           TeliaSonera Finland Oyj
 

So who is being fooled????
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 08, 2009, 03:17:10 pm
.
I live here

15:30 direction you see white water tower. I am quite near.

(http://www.histdoc.net/lauttasaari/pic/Lauttasaari2007-07-05.jpg)
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Jack on October 08, 2009, 06:23:49 pm
What a gorgeous archipelago.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: buzzbee on October 08, 2009, 06:46:58 pm
Finsky,
I don't think everyone from Brazil to Alaska is doing the same. Even though the latitudes of Alaska are fairly north,because of ocean currents I believe conditions from Anchorage to Juneau is quite different.
http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Alaska/Juneau/
http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Alaska/Anchorage/
I understand what you are saying about feeding early.If someone has a system of feeding that works that does not make it wrong.You live in an extreme climate and have adapted to get your bees to survive there. There is a lot of geographical and climate differences within the contiguous 48 states that allow  for different styles of feeding.The southwest is near desert conditions,while upper west coast is very wet and humid.The intereior sections enjoy vast temperature swings from summer to winter,while the East coast and the south can go from drought to  flooding conditions withthe passing of a tropical storm
Bjorn has been very succesful with feeding fondant. The moisture content is not very high.And yes humidity is relative. 1 litre of water evaporated in a specified area at 0C yields a higher relative humidity than the same quantity of water in the same space at 25C.So if moisture is not eliminated as the temperatures drop,the humidity rises and you will have condensation.
I appreciate your stands on why you feed the way you do. And I agree that many new beekeepers may choose the wrong method for their locale. But if it gets too late for syrup to be dried sufficiently,fondant and dry sugar are better options thhan letting the bees die as long as feeding doesmn't end up costing more than replacing the bees.
 I have local keepers who have used most of the methods mentioned in one form or another without any problems. But the biggest problem with syrup here is as you said,if it is fed too late.So if time has not allowed or autumn moves in early(early killing frost) they have to resort to other methods.

And to other forum members,give Finsky his due,he has kept bees for many years in what is probably the harshest of climates,I think he has had bees north of the arctic circle.His advice on insulating,ventilation and rapid feeding should be given merit because he can duplicate positive results consistently.Finskys results with oxalic acid are probably on the money too.I think he treats with oxalic in December  when there is little brood in the hives.
Correct me Finsky if I am wromg on when you do your treatments for mites.
 
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: trapperbob on October 08, 2009, 08:16:24 pm
It's safe to say that one point has definitly been proven here ask a question of a few beekeepers lets say five for example and you will get a hundred different answers and one really hot debate. Finski I have learned some good ideas from you and Bjorn both and that does not make either one of you absolutly right or wrong if there is one thing we have all learned it is that what works for one beekeeper may not work for another. I live in Nebraska and the winters get very cold here and the summers hot and humid. That is about the only thing the entire state has in commen with its self just in the part of the state I live in the climate varys enough that I got a great flow this year 100+ lbs of honey per hive but in talking with many others there flow all but failed. This was due to rain and cooler weather. And if you drew a hundred mile circle around my hives all those people would be in that circle I'm sure that most of them keep bees in much the same way I do but I am sure there are many differences in the way they do things also or there bees would be dead. Finski you are right that there are some things that need to change in the way we keep bees in the states but that being said that does not mean that you me or anyone else has the right to insult each other for the way we do things. There is nothing to be learned from insults.You are right for the area you live in as Bjorn is right for the area he lives in both of your succeses have proven this and I hope that you Finski and You Bjorn will continue to leave your wisdom and great knowledge on this forum. You guys don't have to get along but every time one of you guys says something dosen't mean you have to get into a pissing contest. Some times you just have to agree to disagree.   
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: trapperbob on October 08, 2009, 08:35:21 pm
Sugar or fondant I do not know if one is really better than the other. Sugar is much more widely avalible but fondant is much easier to handle. That being said honey is always best but if they are light it would be best to feed early and as much as they will take. Even when there is enough stores in my hive I will put syrup on and mix a little honey b healthy in it. The hives that get the HBH always seem to be stonger in spring not real sure why but it is always that way. If I have a hive that lokks as if they will eat through there stores only then do I use sugar but they have to burn through there stores first. This has happened a few times ussually Italians. And as soon as they will take it in spring I will put syrup on. I do not like using sugar it is a very temporary fix and the bees do not build up on it or at least this has been my experiance. 
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 09, 2009, 01:28:09 am
.
Do as you like. I have studied geography and biology in university, and I understand American continent climates.  

I have  too cases in the yard that it is too late to feed a colony.

I have collected capped food frames from another hives or I have given from my honey store capped
honey frames.

I have used succesfully that when I have found AFB in some hive. very late I have shaked bees in front of new hive which has capped  winter food frames. And disease have went awy.

Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 09, 2009, 02:20:14 am
.
What is the final shedule to feed bees? Every one clears it out in their home district.

When I stop feeding 2 weeks ago, 10 cm snow had rained allready 500 km away from me in north.
I get first snow rain on sunday .

I feed hives in the first week of September. Professional beekeepers start feeding a month earlier because they have hundreds of hives to feed. If you have 500 hives, you must feed every day tens.
Nowadays many use 16 litre feeding box. So they may give only one box of  syrup.

If you have 5 hives, it does not take many hours to make syrup and  fill feeding box.
100 kg sugar, and you just take time. Otherwise, give up beekeeping.

.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: buzzbee on October 09, 2009, 07:42:32 am
.
What is the final shedule to feed bees? Every one clears it out in their home district.



If you have 5 hives, it does not take many hours to make syrup and  fill feeding box.
100 kg sugar, and you just take time.

.

Excellent points Finsky!
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: JWPick on October 09, 2009, 10:24:30 pm
I'm very interested in all the ways of successfully feeding bees. I've witnessed sugar water feeding and it would appear that it would add some considerable moisture. I also enjoyed Robo's ideas with dry sugar on the newspaper, as well as on a sugar board. I really enjoyed the instructions about the sugar frame list on Robo's World. I've also investigated the Fondant which is very similar to Apifonda, which Mehmet Yuksel feeds his bees. I will enjoy, next year, attempting each method, or combination, to see which works best for my climate. Our winters aren't nearly as severe as most of the north, but it still feels COLD. Mississippi does have high humidity. I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for all of the wonderful insights into each method.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Rodni73 on October 09, 2009, 11:06:50 pm
Imagine  :-D
By Rodni

Imagine there's no winter
It's easy if you try
No freezing hell below us
Above us only sunny sky
Imagine all the beekeepers 
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to argue for
And no veroa mites too
Imagine all the beekepers
Living life in peace

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no fondant
I wonder if you can
No need to feed bees sugar
A brotherhood/sisterhood of beekeepers
Imagine all the  beekeepers
Sharing all the honnnnnnnnneyyyyyyyyy

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 09, 2009, 11:15:57 pm
 :-D
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: jsmob on October 10, 2009, 03:54:47 pm
This last winter, early spring, I feed some candy boards to my 4 hives. In doing so I killed 3 of my hives off.
The cold fondant, plus warm moist air from the hives, made it like a rain storm in the hives. I could not believe how much water was in them. My mistake was that I put the candy boards directly on top of the frames. I thought that I had enough ventilation to let the moist air escape. I didn't. If you feed fondant make sure it is placed on an enter cover and that the hive is tilted so moister drains to the side and not down the frames. I like the sugar because it will take up some of the moister.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Finski on October 11, 2009, 04:41:48 pm
.
.I think he treats with oxalic in December  when there is little brood in the hives.
Correct me Finsky if I am wromg on when you do your treatments for mites.
 

I have had mites since 1982 when I killed the first hive for mites.

Now I use only oxalic acid trickling once a year when ALL brood are away. If the hive has brood in December, it will surely die during winter. The basic of wintering is that the colony/strain is locally adapted and stops laying at the beginning of September.

We have total several months brood brake in winter, mostly 4-5 months.

Just now my hives are allready in clusters and there are almost all brood emerged.
Brooding stops at the beginning of September but mostly feeding starts it again. That is why feeding must be quick that it does not inspire much laying..
.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Diane on October 12, 2009, 06:06:45 pm
All this information is very helpful to a new beekeeper, but now I have more questions after reading all these posts and other feeding posts on this forum.

1.  If I choose to make my own sugar candy for feeding over the winter.  (We have one hive with no honey) Should I place the candy on top of the frames or over the inner cover.  Did I read an earlier post that said it melted and killed the hive? 

2.  Or it sounds like I can just put sugar on the inner cover.  Did I understand this correctly?  Is that all there is too it?

3.  For either of these choices, do I periodically add more sugar or sugar candy to the hive during the winter.  Is it OK to open the top cover during the winter? 

Thanks all for the feedback.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Kathyp on October 12, 2009, 06:15:52 pm
i put dry sugar on the inner cover.  any day that the temp gets 40ish, i pop the top cover and replace as needed.  in my area, any day that it's 40ish, the bees fly and eat.  i also live in a wet area, so i don't need to dampen the sugar. 

this is not a substitute for feeding them up in the fall.  it's just a way to give them extra in case i have mis-calculated or we have a cold, wet, spring.

there is nothing wrong with using the newspaper method, i just find this method faster and easier for me.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Robo on October 12, 2009, 06:51:19 pm
1.  If I choose to make my own sugar candy for feeding over the winter.  (We have one hive with no honey) Should I place the candy on top of the frames or over the inner cover.  Did I read an earlier post that said it melted and killed the hive? 
If you don't make the candy hard enough (high enough temp).  It can become gooey and run.  If you have long cold spells like I do, you stand a chance of the bees starving even though there is food on top of the inner cover because it is too cold for them to break cluster to get to it.
Quote
2.  Or it sounds like I can just put sugar on the inner cover.  Did I understand this correctly?  Is that all there is too it?
Same issue with them not being able to get to it.
Quote
3.  For either of these choices, do I periodically add more sugar or sugar candy to the hive during the winter.  Is it OK to open the top cover during the winter? 
You should try to limit the amount of times you open them up, especially when it is cold.  However,  a little chill is better than starving.  The candy board is usually a one shot deal because you can't add more to it.  Dry sugar can be added, but it can be tricky at times depending on how many of the bees are up on the top bars consuming what sugar is left.

Here is a picture of a candy board that came off in the spring.
(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/543-2/DCP_0109.jpg)

Here is more info on candy boards -> http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Diane on October 13, 2009, 12:34:19 pm
Thanks Robo and Kathyp.  I think I might try the sugar candy at least in the one hive with no honey.  Thanks for the link.  I don't want them to starve.  Being a first year beekeeper I'm a nervous nelly!  :)
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: jsmob on October 13, 2009, 11:26:02 pm
Quote
The cold fondant, plus warm moist air from the hives, made it like a rain storm in the hives. I could not believe how much water was in them.

 I am sorry I was not clearer. The problem I had was condensation. The cold block of candy, coming in contact with warm moist air,causes condensation in the hive. And allot of it. Just make sure your hive is well ventilated. I will tip the candy board at an angle next time. So if moisture dose form it drains to the side, and not down over the cluster.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: Robo on October 14, 2009, 09:35:01 am
So you used candy and not Fondant then?   Fondant or too soft candy can get gooey and run.

Sounds like your bees weren't using it, if the cluster was up top, the candy wouldn't be cold.   How thick was your candy?  It should have provided a better insulation value than the hive walls,  which in turn should cause the condensation to happen on the walls.
Title: Re: Sugar vs Fondant
Post by: jsmob on October 14, 2009, 01:56:32 pm
Maybe I am getting my terms messed up. I used this method.
Quote
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/
The bees had been working the board on all three hives that died. But there was allot of water in side and the bees that were still alive were covered in syrup, caused from the melting of the sugar. I don't know but rain could of leaked in as well. I am not sure. :(