size dilemma

[Kathyp]

all this talk of pollen and expansion brought back to ask for some advice.

the other day the weather warmed a bit.  all the hives flew.  all but one are 2 deeps.  the single deep just boiled bees out.  now, as the days get longer and we have more warm spells, i am concerned that as soon as the queen thinks about laying, the hive will think about swarming.  i believe it is still to cold to add room and there is no flow for comb building.  still, i will have to do something with this hive in a few weeks.

i was thinking about putting a shallow on in about 3 of weeks.  i have several that are fully drawn out.  later, i can put a deep on and move the shallow up on top. if i do it early enough, i may be able to take that shallow and use it as a nuc if the queen has laied in it.  i figure to add the shallow at the same time i start feeding which will be weather and forecast dependent.

we still have plenty of cold weather in front of us.  days may warm, but nights will be in the 20's and 30's 'til mid feb. and some of our worst weather can come in febuary.  of course, it can get into the 70's also.

other than the fact that i'd be breaking the brood nest, do you all see any other flaws in the plan....other than "if you had the same size boxes......."  :-)

[Bennettoid]

I've always been told that size doesn't matter.

[Scadsobees]

If there is not a flow then they probably aren't raising too much brood yet.  Even when the trees start blooming and pollen and nectar start flowing then they will start, but the queen will still ramp up and not just lay up all the space all that quick.  I think in a 2 box system they don't start using both boxes until well into spring.

Rick

[Kathyp]

bennettoid, someone was just being kind  :evil:

i'm not at all worried about the 2 box hives.  it's just the one box hive that seems jammed full.  that hive raised it's own queen late, and she seems to be a good one.  i'd hate to lose her to swarming, so i want to make sure that space restrictions do not cause problems.  ideally i would add a deep in the spring, but i am afraid that if i wait until mid march, it will be to late.

[Bennettoid]

bennettoid, someone was just being kind  :evil:

  :shock:


 :'(

[KONASDAD]

i'm not at all worried about the 2 box hives.  it's just the one box hive that seems jammed full.  that hive raised it's own queen late, and she seems to be a good one.  i'd hate to lose her to swarming, so i want to make sure that space restrictions do not cause problems.  ideally i would add a deep in the spring, but i am afraid that if i wait until mid march, it will be to late.

I think(?) you might need to utilize Unlimited brood chamber techniques. Feed in drawn but unfilled frames and the queen will think she cant leave as no eggs exist. Tricks her into thinking they are not ready to swarm. you have to start about 8 or nine weeks before the flow to prevent swarming. Once you see signs of swarming they have already made their minds up and its too late, so a split is in order. I would of course refer to MB's site .

[Trot]

If this is giving you grey hair, do something about it.

Get a box with made comb, previously lay-ed one is best.  Two outside one's can be foundation in a pinch. (#1 and #10)  They most often are poorly utilized by bees at this time and are usually moldy and/or wet.
Since I will hazard a guess that you don't have spare combs of honey and pollen - don't put this box on top - Put it on Bottom board and existing one on top.  Bees move upwards and you don't want them to move on empty comb and starve, if cold sets in.

Remember, those bees are not short on room when in a cluster.  But they should have a patch of brood now and the need for space will become an issue which they will solve - with or without your help!

Do this on some warm day, or days where a few nice ones are called for.  Disturbed bees take a few days to settle down, some more some less. We don't want them to get caught in a cold, when they are loose in the box and not able to tighten up for warmth. . . .

I don't like this cause it will break their winter seal between boxes and could be drafty if weather gets nasty.
By putting a box on/under - your troubles are not over as yet!  They will need more food cause they did not prep this new box for winter.  Bottom boxes are primarily used for pollen storage and of course reserve feed.  Come February give them something to help along.  But time it properly!? Once helping, help can not stop until they get their own !
(If you have inner cover, pour a 2 kilo bag of dry sugar around the center hole. Sort of insurance. . . .)

If this new box will be a medium, reverse it  when weather gets stabilized and than add you full, etc, etc. . . .

I see that other added to posts while I was typing???
Do not, repeat: Do not disturb the cluster by adding/removing frames at this time!
(Unless the weather in your parts is already in a spring mode - which I doubt. . . .)

i'd hate to lose her to swarming, so i want to make sure that space restrictions do not cause problems.  ideally i would add a deep in the spring, but i am afraid that if i wait until mid march, it will be to late.

[Michael Bush]

>bennettoid, someone was just being kind

Someone beat me to it...

[Kathyp]

thanks for the ideas guys.  i have some time yet.  we are in for some very cold weather at night.  i guess i'll put my hands on the hive and feel the force  :-).  i might also take a look inside if we get a run of good weather and see what's going on.......

[Paraplegic Racehorse]

Since you're going to break the propolis seal on the hive, try smearing some petroleum jelly (Vasalene) along the top of the box to re-seal it. It will help dramatically with the draftiness until the bees are warm enough to rebuild their own seal.

[rdy-b]

Wait till march then split the singel -leave the splits as singels-get a box of honey -then spin the box and add it to the singel --RDY-B

[NWIN Beekeeper]

Kathy,

I'm reading that some guys are just getting pollen patties on for the spring.
This being the case, my guess is you have at least 3-4 weeks before seriously worrying about swarming.
This does not mean it should not remain a concern, just don't loose sleep over it.

It is always very surprising what just a couple weeks does to weather.
I would wait for conditions to improve before making any drastic changes.
My concern would be too much disturbance and you may start dwindling your bees.
Too many disturbances when the weather is cold may not kill them all at once.
But it can bring critical mass down low enough to kill them slowly.
Or just as bad, it can set them back making them perform poorly in the spring.

I'd doubt your bees would be at enough population to halve and swarm yet.
you'd have to have swarm conditions for a while (good flow, crowding, etc).

[...some petroleum jelly ...will help dramatically with the draftiness...]

Duct tape works wonders too.
 

[Cindi]

bennettoid, someone was just being kind  :evil:

Kathy, oooh, you make me wanna laugh.

Remember, a lot of those bees that you see coming out of the boiling over colony will die.  They are the bees that have probably been the winter bees, from the fall bees last year, no doubt they will be pretty much done.  YOu have concerns about swarming.  The comments that were made about the food supply outside of the hive I think were correct. The bees wouldn't be interested in splitting up their colony for awhile.  There will be lots of bees dieing that will make room for the new babies born.  Remember that.  In a couple of weeks, on that good day, I would check the number of frames that the bees cover.  YOu are operating in deeps, 10 frames.  When the bees are fully covering 7 frames, that is when I would consider that condition "red" and add a super. But also, remember to check for queen cells.  I bet you won't see any for quite some time.  Good luck, you know that you will get very appropriate responses from our gurus on this forum.  Have the best and most wonderful day, Cindi

[Paraplegic Racehorse]

[...some petroleum jelly ...will help dramatically with the draftiness...]

Duct tape works wonders too.

Aye, but petroleum jelly does not add extra work (removing) to the process of opening the hive again, later. ;)