The Gene Pool

[SEEYA]

What do you think? Does bringing those hybrid super bees into an area improve the feral survivors already there? How about the over medicated wimps are they a concern? Is it just a wash? Mother nature culls the weak and tests the strong? Is it up to the hobbyist beekeepers to preserve the wild honey bee? 

[Kathyp]

interesting question....i don't know about the imports.  i suspect that if they swarm and eventually mix with what is out there, they become like all others.  the strong survive and those genes go on.

as for our duty, i feel less of a duty than an interest.  it is cheaper and easier to keep true survivor stock than to keep bees that require lots of attention and medications.  as a matter of economics, it seems a good idea to promote and preserve survivor stock when we can.

[BjornBee]

What do you think? Does bringing those hybrid super bees into an area improve the feral survivors already there?

What hybrid super bees are you talking about?

Are we assuming that feral survivors are better or worse?

How about the over medicated wimps are they a concern? Is it  just a wash?

Could be, could not be. Hard to say. Assuming most think anything in a tree is survivor stock with magical genetics, then I would have to say, going with the norm, that it would be a "push" at best.

Mother nature culls the weak and tests the strong? Is it up to the hobbyist beekeepers to preserve the wild honey bee? 

Yes she does.

Define your thoughts on what exactly it is to "Preserve" the wild honey bee. Not cutting down trees? Placing yellow tape around known feral colonies? Pass legislation and laws to do something? Putting them on the endandered species list?

What do you have in mind?

[FRAMEshift]

There are too many variables to think you can improve on the existing feral stock.  Bees are generally bred for certain known characteristics.  There are many other traits in those bees that are unknown and are never tested for.  But nature over time tests ALL traits that are relevant to survival in a given climate.  You can't beat that.

[Michael Bush]

>What do you think? Does bringing those hybrid super bees into an area improve the feral survivors already there?

IMO, no, it narrows the gene pool a lot.  Those "super bees" are usually very inbred.

> How about the over medicated wimps are they a concern? Is it just a wash?

There is nothing I can do about them.  But as Randy Oliver said: "If you're not part of the genetic solution, you're part of the problem"
They are part of the problem.

>Mother nature culls the weak and tests the strong? Is it up to the hobbyist beekeepers to preserve the wild honey bee? 

You can contribute to that end.  You can't control everything.

[L Daxon]

I believe I have read that the problem with hybrids is that they lose the characteristic(s) they were bred for after a generation or two, and end up meaner to boot.

Is that one reason some people are so big on requeening so frequently, because you have to keep reintroducing queens bred with the genetics you want?

As a hobbyist I do think I can help the feral population by making sure there is a supply of bees escaping into the wild so mother nature will have something to work with  (the escape of the African strain excepted.)

[BjornBee]

I believe I have read that the problem with hybrids is that they lose the characteristic(s) they were bred for after a generation or two, and end up meaner to boot.

I've never known this to be true but perhaps for the buckfast bee.

Is that one reason some people are so big on requeening so frequently, because you have to keep reintroducing queens bred with the genetics you want?

Can't speak for others, but I requeen due to the fact that younger queens on average perform better. This younger queen advantage is seen in most feral colonies as the swarm most years. I also requeen while splitting, also helping with brood breaks, etc.

I actually don't know any beekeeper who requeens often for some reasoning of hot hybrid queens. Where did you come up with that?

As a hobbyist I do think I can help the feral population by making sure there is a supply of bees escaping into the wild so mother nature will have something to work with  (the escape of the African strain excepted.)

Interesting concept of helping the feral population.

[Michael Bush]

>As a hobbyist I do think I can help the feral population by making sure there is a supply of bees escaping into the wild so mother nature will have something to work with  (the escape of the African strain excepted.)

But "mother nature" has the genetics she needs to survive in the wild, as evidenced by their surviving.  The ones you "release" into the wild are coming from a different climate and probably a breeding program that props up the bees with treatments.  They are not likely to have the genetics to survive and you will probably just water down the genetics that can...

[Country Heart]

So, does that mean that capturing a local swarm is not the best way to get strong local bee stock?

As a new beekeeper, when I go to populate my hives this spring - what would be the best way to get strong original stock?

[Michael Bush]

>So, does that mean that capturing a local swarm is not the best way to get strong local bee stock?

In my opinion, no.  Keep them in your hive and let them make you honey.

>As a new beekeeper, when I go to populate my hives this spring - what would be the best way to get strong original stock?

Buy a package of bees.  Raise your own queens which will mate with the locals...

[JackM]

I may not completely grasp all this, but it is a topic of interest.

My understanding is the drones actually are the ones spreading the gene pool around when they go to the DCA.  So, if you have a VSH and there is a feral around, both communities would use the same DCA and thus spread that gene pool around.  The only way to keep a 'pure' strain is to be positive that there are not other 'different' drones around. 

Such is done by this dude, but he hints that his bees are not so friendly and more aggressive enough that they would not work for a garden hive.
http://www.wildernessbees.com/?p=content&c=&i=25
If it were not for that I would try his bees as they have survived in this climate for quite a few years.

Adaptation to a climate is what I think folks should look at first as that would lead to healthier hives and thus more product in the end.

[D Semple]

I have nothing but ferals, captured from tree swarms and cut-outs.

If you want ferals just catch your own, it's not that hard and a blast to boot.  :)

[SEEYA]

I started this post because: Genetics and Human intervention interests me and I thought it was thought provoking.
"wimps" and "hybrid super bees" are just my terms for the opposite ends of the spectrum. I don't mean to offend.

>Define your thoughts on what exactly it is to "Preserve" the wild honey bee. Not cutting down trees? Placing yellow tape around known >feral colonies? Pass legislation and laws to do something? Putting them on the endandered species list?

Honey bees are an 'Invasive species", probably the only one that HASN'T caused some harm!
 I was thinking more along the line of the genetic diverse-sty ( spell checker :?) on this planet. Example - Michigan brought in Western Elk to replace the 'native' 'extinct' elk. Remember in our Politically Correct society Canus Lupus (wolf) is the same specie as your neighbors poodle. Sort of funny  -  the mental picture of a pack of poodles, pulling down an old bison bull :flyingpig:

[FRAMEshift]

I believe I have read that the problem with hybrids is that they lose the characteristic(s) they were bred for after a generation or two

After one open mating, the new bees have half the genes of the selectively bred queen.  After two open matings, the new bees have one quarter of the original queens genes.  So yes, the characteristics die out very quickly unless you have so many of those selected queens that you are saturating the DCAs.  Unless you want to keep on buying new queens every year or two, you will end up with the local genetics, which I think is a good thing.  

, and end up meaner to boot.

Why would they be meaner?  I don't see any reason for that.

[deknow]

Why would they be meaner?  I don't see any reason for that.

When one talks about "hybrid" stock, you need to know what specifically is being described.  Commonly today, people get a hive of russins and  hive of nwc's, and call the offspring "hybrid".

There is also what is known as a hybrid breeding program, where (in a simple case) 2 separate lines are selected for a small number of specific (but different) traits...in order to fix these traits in the populations, they are heavily inbred.  I've been told by Randy Quinn (who did much of the field work in the Midnight and Starline bees, which were this kind of hybrid) that the inbred lines were so weak that they had to constantly be fed brood and food frames from stronger colonies...but when these two lines are crossed, it shows "hybrid vigor"...the effects of the inbreeding are lifted, and the two sets of traits are combined....this method is used because it is easier to select 2 lines for 3 traits each than one line for 6 traits, as well as the fact that the eventual cross eliminates the effects of inbreeding (at least in the short term).  I don't know of anyone running a program like this today...but vigor (lack of signs of inbreeding) dissolves in just a few generations...requiring that the beekeeper now purchase a new queen bred from the inbred lines.

Crossing strains does seem to generally result in hotter bees...this has been observed by the usda since at least the 1950's...why?  I don't know for sure, but in the Gould and Gould book ("The Honey Bee"), there is a graph showing that the length of parts of the various dances differ between races....different dialects.  Is this hard coded?  Is it learned?  Is it even correct?  I don't know, but I do suspect that there may be a "tower of babbel" effect....but that is just a guess (something similar could be happening wrt pheremones as well).

deknow

[JackM]

Why would they be meaner?  I don't see any reason for that.

Great question, but that link I provided has that issue, they are just not as gentle, also his is an inbreeding program, not crossing.

[FRAMEshift]

Great question, but that link I provided has that issue, they are just not as gentle, also his is an inbreeding program, not crossing.

Ah yes if the bees are bred for gentleness then they would lose that trait when open mated.  I thought there was a more general claim that  "hybrid bees" of all sorts would be more gentle than the bees obtained by open mating those hybrids, and that did not make sense.

[CapnChkn]

When the Drones fly out, they don't just fly to a DCA and wait, they fly from hive to hive.  Mostly though, they would fly back to their home hive.  Since wild colonies can't be controlled, the only realistic solutions to breeding a specific bee would be to isolate the colonies and control the drones.

Islands, Oasis in desert, or something similar would allow the breeder to select which traits to keep.  Since the drone only carries the genetics of the queen, the breeder could determine the general demeanor of the colony, and select the traits by dispatching the unwanted queens.

When breeders talk about quantification, they aren't talking about, metaphorically, taking a glass of red colored water, blue colored water, and trying to mix them to get a shade of violet, they're talking about the number of drones that have one trait and another.  The queen will have genes that are shared by the entire colony, and the 10 to 25 drones she mated with will offer the other half.

If 50% of the drones come from one hive, then they will carry the genetic material from that queen.  In this model, 25% from another, 10% here, 10% there, and lastly 5% from a colony where the drone "hive-hopped" from far away.  That's how the genetic diversity would play out.

Without the isolation the only other option for open mating would be to control the drones.  Allowing the drones with the traits one wants would produce the desired results by flooding the area with the genes from that line of queens.  It would take years of continued diligence, but eventually the area would have a pocket of the traits the beekeeper would want, with an occasional incursion from colonies outside of the usual range by drones piggy-backing from colony to colony.

[JWChesnut]

I live in a mild climate area, this allows me to observe many feral hives as they are frequently built "naked" on tree branches.

I believe the primary adaptation we have seen for the survival in the face of varroa is frequent summer swarm and absconding behavior. 

Logically this makes some sense, as summer brood break effectively resets the mite irruption clock.

In our area AHB are just colonizing, and they have been reported to have the same frequent swarm pattern, but this might be a case of convergent selection on an adaptive trait.

Economic bee keeping would have to manage for the late summer swarm pattern.  In my climate this is less critical than for others.