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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Joseph Clemens on April 07, 2006, 02:05:41 am

Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 07, 2006, 02:05:41 am
I am just a hobby beekeeper. I have two small residential apiaries of a few more than a dozen hives, total. Half of them are at the property I share ownership of, with my mother and brother in Marana, AZ. The property is zoned [SH], it is slightly larger than one acre, and I have kept bees there for the past 10 years and presently have just 6 colonies on the property. See section "E" in 18.07.030:

http://www.co.pima.az.us/cob/code/c18a5.html#576

About one and a half months ago someone from the county health department paid a visit in response to a complaint, allegedly from one of our neighbors. I was not present, but spoke with him on the phone while he and my mother stood ten feet from the hives for about 15 minutes. He mentioned that no one reported having been stung or attacked, and the bees bothered neither he nor my mother during his visit. He assured me that my bees were perfectly acceptable as far as he could see. He only asked for assurances that I would take appropriate action if the bees ever became overly agressive. Of course I would, my mother takes her walks past the hives each morning. About a month later a group of two persons from the county health department stopped by, in response to another complaint by the same person. They also gave me their assurances that my bees seemed just fine. They explained that it was simply an essential part of their process to respond personally to every complaint.

- - - - - -

Then I got a call from Pima County Zoning Enforcement. They are requiring me to obtain a beekeeping permit in order to keep my bees. They referred me to the department concerned with issuing permits. That department thought I had failed to understand the instructions I was given by zoning enforcement. The representative I spoke with explained how he had worked there for more than 25 years without ever having anyone need to obtain such a permit, and after conferring with his supervisor assured me that no permit was required to keep bees on property zoned [SH] in Pima County. Back I went to zoning enforcement --- eventually the supervisor from zoning enforcement spoke with the supervisor of the permit issuing department and now I am expected to obtain a $25 permit (I may be the first beekeeper in the history of Pima County that needs a permit to keep bees on my own rural property). They made a notation in the permit record for the property, "Beekeeping without a permit". The idea is that I will obtain the permit, zoning enforcement will inspect to see that the code requirements are met for keeping bees in my zone and then they will clear me of, "Beekeeping without a permit". I thought I should check with other beekeepers who may have more experience with this kind of thing, as I have none. There is no actual "Beekeeping permit". This is the zoning code they are using to require me to obtain the requested permit, it is an excerpt from section 18.01.030:

"E. Zoning Permits.
1. A zoning use permit shall be required for the erection, construction, reconstruction or alteration of any structure, or the change in use of any property or structure, whether or not such activity requires a building permit.
2. A zoning construction permit is required for the above activities when such activity does not require a building permit, except that an accessory building or accessory structure of two hundred square feet or less in area does not require a zoning construction permit when the cost of the accessory building or accessory structure is $1,000 or less. (Ord. 2004-59 § 1, 2004; Ord. 1994-135 § 1, 1994; Ord. 1985-188 § 1 (part), 1985; Ord. 1985-82 (part), 1985)"

When I read the part of the code that specifically addresses beekeeping I see that their is no specification for a permit requirement and in paragraph E.5. of 18.07.030. that the zoning inspector is required to determine that I am not following the zoning standards for beekeeping and if it is determined that I am not, they will then contact the health department and together decide the fate of my bees. It sounds like they want me to pay them before they do their job according to the zoning code. Help!
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Finsky on April 07, 2006, 02:34:16 am
Suppose you have beekeeping inspectors there which can help?
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 07, 2006, 03:11:26 am
I guess it could help in a situation like this, but we don't have any formal beekeeping inspection service here in Arizona.
Title: BEE LAWS
Post by: Jack Parr on April 07, 2006, 06:56:29 am
Quote from: Joseph Clemens
I guess it could help in a situation like this, but we don't have any formal beekeeping inspection service here in Arizona.


IMO you would have to determine weather beekeeping is in fact allowed where you live, or, not allowed for certain.  If there are no prohibitions against beekeeping per se and you have been involved in your activity for 20 ? years then I would not obtain any permits and LET them, whoever they are, force the issue.

Hopefully you would be forced to go to court and let the JUDGE decide.
However you should be certain of your position according to what is, or, not allowed where you live, specifically beekeeping.

I would further research nuisance laws, ordinances, rules, regulations etc to see if they could gin up some excuse to make you move your bees and even if THEY could destroy them.

Unfortunately there is the issue of the AHB's in your area that will be held against you if the snitch is persistant. Now the die is caste and the authorities MUST take some action.

Maybe your best bet is to consult a lawyer :twisted:  and get a REAL legal opinion.

Really 25 bucks is not a killer if that's all it would take to make them leave you alone, but I know, I know it's galling.

Did you consult your ELECTED representative?

About all I can think of except tell everyone " GO TO HELL ".  :wink:
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jerrymac on April 07, 2006, 08:30:14 am
Jack Parr,

It is more than $25. If a person has the right to do something why give up that right and get someones permission??? OH Yeah, happens all the time in the land of the free..... I'm with Jack on this, don't let them bully you. Go back to the place that said you don't need a permit, let them put it in writting, then the others (THEY) would have to come up with something specific I would think. And perhaps it will come down to letting a judge decide. Don't give up you freedoms lightly.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: TwT on April 07, 2006, 09:36:16 am
even if its only a $25 permit, It would still tick me off because they seem to just be doing this to you alone,  I would fight it also, then I would look for a sneaky neighbor so I knew to to keep a eye on, but in the end it's only 25 bucks so don't let the lawyer get his hands in your pocket also. I would go to the department that wants you to to pay for this permit and talk to the top dog, and get him to explain whats going on, he might not be able to and fix it for you, Good Luck
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 07, 2006, 09:36:49 am
Jack Parr,

This is what the zoning code says concerning beekeeping in my zone:

"E. Beekeeping is permitted in all zones subject to the requirements of this section:
1. Density. Except in the Institutional Reserve (IR), Rural Homestead (RH) and industrial zones (CPI, CI-1, CI-2, CI-3) wherein one colony is allowed per 2,500 square feet, the following maximum number of colonies per lot area apply:
a. One-quarter acre or less: 2 colonies
b. More than 1/4 acre to less than 1/2 acre: 4 colonies
c. One-half acre to less than 36,000 square feet: 6 colonies
d. 36,000 square feet to one acre: 8 colonies
e. Greater than one acre: 8 colonies plus one colony per additional 2,500 square feet of lot area above one acre.
2. Bee hives shall be kept a minimum of thirty feet from any exterior lot boundary line.
3. Except for lots with an area greater than one acre, a barrier shall be erected that will prevent bees from flying through it. Such barrier shall:
a. Be at least six feet in height and shall consist of a dense plant or hedge or any opaque constructed material;
b. Extend at least eighteen feet beyond the hive(s) in both directions.
4. Fresh, clean watering facilities for bees shall be provided on said premises.
5. Upon determination by a zoning inspector that a property owner is not in compliance with the zoning standards for beekeeping, the Pima County health department shall be notified. If the same property owner is determined to be keeping a colony or colonies deemed a nuisance or hazard by the health department, the course of action shall be determined by the health inspector in cooperation with the zoning inspector.
6. Exceptions:
a. An exception to the provisions of this subsection shall be permitted for a period not to exceed sixty days for bees actively participating in commercial agricultural activities.
b. Nothing in this subsection shall be deemed or construed to prohibit the keeping of bees located or kept within a government facility, a school, or a university facility for the purpose of study or observation."

So, you see, it is specifically permitted in my zone with the above guidelines. I've always met (actually exceeded) these guidelines.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: thomashton on April 07, 2006, 12:56:04 pm
Well, like Jack Parr said then, tell them all to "Go to Hell." :D
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: randydrivesabus on April 07, 2006, 01:28:51 pm
imho....obtain something in writing from the rep who said he has never issued a permit or was required to.

if any law enforcement types come by be sure you have witnesses to what transpires. do not hire a lawyer because they will rip you off. do contact your local AND state representative and tell them your story.
do not pay the $25 unless someone can specifically show you why you owe it.

this kind of crap gets me po'd.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 07, 2006, 01:43:54 pm
She's the one that decided I needed this "permit". I just had a long conversation with many of the county, "players". They were not entirely pleasant, and it has been suggested, by others, that even if I pay the money the hassel might not end. But, I am going down this morning and give them the money. Maybe that will be the end of it. Ha ha.

Quote from: TwT
even if its only a $25 permit, It would still tick me off because they seem to just be doing this to you alone,  I would fight it also, then I would look for a sneaky neighbor so I knew to to keep a eye on, but in the end it's only 25 bucks so don't let the lawyer get his hands in your pocket also. I would go to the department that wants you to to pay for this permit and talk to the top dog, and get him to explain whats going on, he might not be able to and fix it for you, Good Luck
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: randydrivesabus on April 07, 2006, 01:59:46 pm
good luck with that Joe. do you know any other beeks near you?
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 07, 2006, 02:05:53 pm
Dee Lusby, but she moved out of the county, partly due to a similar hassel.

Jim Hawk, who runs the local bee supply store, he doesn't keep any bees presently.

Of course, I could move them a few other places, but it is kinda convenient to have them at home.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 07, 2006, 05:03:13 pm
I have been encouraged by my fellow beekeepers not to give in to the unreasonable demand that I obtain a "permit", so I am waiting until I look into the matter farther.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jerrymac on April 07, 2006, 07:03:16 pm
Never give up. Never surrender.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: manowar422 on April 07, 2006, 08:40:52 pm
Quote
5. Upon determination by a zoning inspector that a property owner is not in compliance with the zoning standards for beekeeping, the Pima County health department shall be notified. If the same property owner is determined to be keeping a colony or colonies deemed a nuisance or hazard by the health department, the course of action shall be determined by the health inspector in cooperation with the zoning inspector.


I'm hoping for an outcome in your favor Joseph, but the wording above
shows they have all the marbles in this game. Please do not hesitate
to at least consult an attorney before letting the county government
railroad you out of your beekeeping hobby.

Is there any way you could qualify for the educational exemption?
You could invite the local schools out for field observation and an
informal beekeeping school, or, I'd be willing to send you small
amounts of money for researching small cell effects on Varroa Mite populations :wink:
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Michael Bush on April 07, 2006, 09:46:51 pm
Personally I'd play the AHB card.  Keeping EHB helps keep out the AHB.  Removing the EHB leaves a vacuum that will surely be filled by AHB.

Michael
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 07, 2006, 10:57:32 pm
I should have an edge with the Health Department, they have already sent out their own investigators recently, on two occassions, for complaints they had received and their verbal reports to me were glowing. All I need is to obtain copies of their reports and that should help my case greatly.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jack Parr on April 08, 2006, 09:42:17 am
Well I see you are not ROLLING over without some fightin'.

As far as " tell em to go to hell " is concerned there is a potential backlash to telling A PUBLIC OFFICIALL to stuff it. IT, or they, the officials, usually take themselves VERY seriously and THEY fell compelled to take some sort of action when there are persistent complaints about something. IT IS THEIR JOB :!: Usually if they are elected there is some leeway but for the hired officials there is a mandate to DO SOMETHING and I suppose you are dealing with the HIRED HELP so...

The problem as I see it is the AHB issue.  If the " snitch " enlist like minded individual to his/her cause you could face persistant aggrevation from said officials.  I mean they just WILL NOT GO AWAY. If the issue of PUBLIC SAFETY is brought forth, you may be in dire straits, even if you are correct. I dunno.

In any event, good luck and keep us posted.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Rich V on April 08, 2006, 12:38:15 pm
Have you found out who signed the complaint agaisnt you? Here in Illinois we have the right to know who the person is who file the complaint. I have in one case nipped it in the bud just by finding out who it was. Neighbors get friendly face to face.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 08, 2006, 06:48:36 pm
We have a plan:

1) Send a formal, written request by certified mail to zoning enforcement requesting they put their demands and reasonings in writing.

2) Send a formal, written request by certified mail requesting the health department provide copies of their investigation reports.

3) In a few days temporarily remove the six colonies to another location during the night. Replace them with empty hives, not even frames. Then if there is another complaint before they are returned I can show the investigators that there are no bees presently on the property.

On an aside: one neighbor suspected of originating a complaint is a friend of my mother (mother actually lives on the property). We plan to have mother ask her for a written statement acknowledging that she knows about the bees and does not have a problem with them.   :lol:
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Michael Bush on April 08, 2006, 09:23:48 pm
Sounds like a plan.  I always like the empty box method.  :)
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 10, 2006, 02:13:03 am
Well, I just finished relocating the six hives I had been keeping at the property in Marana, Arizona (without a "beekeeping permit"), moved them about 18 miles away. I replaced them with some empty older deeps that are almost completely worn out. They are barely useable, but since I don't use deeps and these weren't worth cutting down to mediums, I keep them only to store unused frames/combs and as swarm traps. I thought I had some that were without frames, but I didn't have six empties, so I used those with frames, some even have a few combs that the wax moths missed. I also have some older worn-out bottom boards and tops that I used to populate my decoy apiary. I posted a sign inside the apiary enclosure: "From: The Clemens' Honeybees
Gone on vacation. Will return soon."

I waited until after dark, used ratcheting straps to lock each hive together. Puffed a little smoke in each to quiet them down. All done while wearing only a pilot's skull cap (to keep them from finding my hair) and a red LED headlamp. Turned out the skull cap wasn't necessary, the girls stayed calm throughout the entire trip, loading and unloading included.

It will be very interesting to see how the officials react if they still get more complaints and come to investigate.

If their response includes the continued insistance that I obtain this "Beekeeping permit", I can honestly tell them, "I don't need one". If they don't ask specifically, why, who am I to tell them. :D

The zoning code concerning beekeeping clearly states that it requires them to investigate to determine if I am keeping the bees according to the code guidelines. If I am not, the code then requires them to contact the Health Department for a determination whether the bees are a nuisance or hazard, if they are determined to be so, their fate is then decided by a joint decision of the zoning and health inspectors. None of this has happened yet. The Health Department inspectors have visited twice, in reponse to complaints filed directly with their department. The zoning enforcement office had received its own complaint, yet has not acted on it in accordance with the zoning code concerning beekeeping.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jack Parr on April 10, 2006, 05:48:05 am
Quote from: Michael Bush
Sounds like a plan.  I always like the empty box method.  :)


Think now. Is this really a good plan, trying to make fools out of someone that is entrusted with OFFICIAL duties? Hopefully if this enforcement situation of no bees persist " they " will have a sense of humor when confronted with a trick hive or hives :P

Seems like the Joe guy is in fact going to rollover since he is moving the actual bees to another location. In fact  that plan may well be the undoing since Joe does have another place to keep the bees

I would have actually waited for the " hammer " to fall and not waste my time doing some foolishness.  

If in fact the " snitch " is known, then a face to face discussion with same could prove to be the wiser course, as mentioned above.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 10, 2006, 06:27:00 am
Jack,
Many people move their bees from time to time for many valid reasons. This is just another valid reason to temporarily have the bees somewhere else. Not to make a fool of the officials, but of the complainer(s). From questions and statements made by the investigators, it appears the main issue is the bees use of a small children’s wading pool as their water source. Since there are a great many more honeybees in the area, other than mine. This wading pool will, most likely still be popular with the bees as long as the pool owner leaves it full of stale, dirty water.. At least, for now, they won't be my bees trespassing in someone else's wading pool.

If this does happen, and another complaint is made to the health department, they investigate and discover my bees are temporarily working somewhere else. I will have a record to prove that other bees are also present in the area, not just mine.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jack Parr on April 10, 2006, 07:00:29 am
WHAT :!:  :!:

You don't sleep :?:

Your isssue is not the first I've read about. In fact bees in pools are so common that by now everyone SHOULD be aware the bees will seek out any water supply if they need it.  Your bees on any bees.

Misguided fears, I agree but...  

Sometimes this stuff about bees gets downright foolish. However there is that FEAR FACTOR depicted very graphically by the " KILLER BEE " phenom.  It's irrational for those of us who do understand bees but most peeps don't.  In fact since I've started keeping bees I have yet to speak to ANYONE with any knowledge about bees except for their one vivid stinging incident and their now they are convinced that bees are dangerous.

Personally I don't know what I will do about keeping bees when the AHB's are established in my area, and they are on their way. I have some hives populated with ferals that are very defensive and believe me they are not very pleasent to work. In fact, I have, right now, in my house, sittin' on a shelf, some replacement QUEENS, SMR Italians, acquired yesterday, to replace some of those nasty buggers. I was in the Queen and package supplier's yard yesterday and it was amazing how docile his bee's are. I walked around without protection taking pictures. The temp was mild but not cold.

I recently did some hive work on those nasty critters and they do seem to remember their experiences because now whenever I go near their hives up they come after me and whoever is around, including my old lady, who has been stung three or four times due to my beekeeping activities close to the house, within 50 feet. Now I have nasty bees, plus a disgruntled very good COOK and dishwasher :lol:  I keep telling her that it's good therapy. :wink:  I did move one hive and the other is soon to be moved also.

I still think you should have waited to see how far the authorities would go to make you bend to their way. Actually, as I see it, all they could make you do is move the bees, and you've done that, so...

Build a big swimming pool in your yard for a water supply :!:  :P  That'll show 'em
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 10, 2006, 07:38:57 am
Jack,
I don't really plan to tell them about having moved the bees. Unless they specifically ask that question. Where they were moved is none of their business. When they will return is not their business either.

If they actually become a nuisance or hazard, according to the health department, or me, then I will promptly take appropriate action. To me that is what the code requires, and is perfectly reasonable. Being the only beekeeper, forced to comply with some imaginary ordinance, to my mind, is not reasonable.

I also don't plan to keep them away permanently, just until I get this "Beekeeping permit" issue resolved.

BTW, they are near my 300 gallon Koi pond, they take good advantage of it, but that has never kept them from visiting all the neighbor's dog and cat dishes too.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Understudy on April 10, 2006, 08:32:00 am
Welcome to the world of renegade beekeepers.

I am in a similar situation. The area I live in is zoned residential. The local codes say that bees may not be kept in a residential zoned area.  The state has no problem with my keeping the bees but they are not the final authority.
Fortunatly my neighbors have no desire to rat me out.

I wish you luck in your endevors.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 11, 2006, 11:08:01 pm
Well early this afternoon I got most of the letters into the mail. Three that were certified, return receipt requested. Those three were almost $15 just to send them to downtown offices in this same town, whew. Up front this is gonna cost much more than the $25 permit, but I'm hoping to send a message. With how things are going in our beekeeping world, mites, AHB, etc. And beekeepers dropping out due to the degree of difficulty now common in the field of beekeeping. We need bees for our crops, now, even more than ever. Some states have incentive programs to recruit beekeepers, my county/state seems to be developing a disincentive program. Seems misinformed and quite apathetic.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: ian michael davison on April 12, 2006, 03:24:00 am
Hi all
Ah the land of the free.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Next time you have a face to face with one of these guys dont P them off.
I think these guys are the same the world over :lol:
Give them a jar of honey and bore them to death about bees.

Regards Ian
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 12, 2006, 06:47:49 am
No worries, I always do my best to respond politely and moderately to even the strongest provocations.

My strongest response, so far, has been to attempt to ensure that their boss is aware of what they are doing. My guess is that they are doing this on their own and once their boss is aware, they may desist.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: ian michael davison on April 12, 2006, 08:41:20 am
Hi all
The trouble is local Goverment are always looking for an excuse to justify their existance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x


Regards Ian
Title: Update
Post by: Joseph Clemens on April 23, 2006, 08:54:10 am
I received copies of the reports from the Health Department, both expound how they were in close proximity to the hives without any hint of aggressive behaviors and the first one quotes the complainer as being "freaked out" simply by the thought of my bees being that close to her. She being, therefore unable to participate in any outdoor activities at her home.

Of course, zoning enforcement drove by on the 17th and issued us, 3 - $750 citations. Two for my brother's hobbies, playing with old cars (keeping a junkyard) and having his workspace outdoors (open storage). Incidentally they wrote my citation for keeping 6 empty swarm-catching boxes. The hearing is on the 11th of May. My brother is going to clean up his junk yard, thank goodness. I'm going to ask them why I was cited for trying to catch and remove feral, potentially AHB's from the area? I will also ask them for an explanation concerning the imaginary requirement for a "Beekeeping permit" should I return any bees to the premises in the future. Either way, that will wait a few months while the wall of 25 foot tall Arundo donax (Giant Spanish reed) grows to obscure most of the entire property from any neighbors view.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jack Parr on April 23, 2006, 09:07:31 am
Beginning to be complicated, or so it seems  :?:

You could call your empty hives a " welcome center for your current daily, and nightly, guest  " :?:  as per the news of the mongal hoards invading your part of the country :wink:
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: ctsoth on April 23, 2006, 10:55:20 am
So, is your local government there to serve you as they would claim, or to establish dominion over you?
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Michael Bush on April 23, 2006, 11:21:42 am
I'ts wonderful to live in a free country.  Of course it's not free.  Apparently it just cost you $2250.  I always wonder how it makes a government employee feel to know they are being used to harrass people.  If normal people did what they do it would be extortion or at least harrassment.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jerrymac on April 23, 2006, 11:55:43 am
But let us not forget..... it was some civilian busy-body that didn't like looking at the junk on someone elses property that started those "clean city" ordanances. And the government, while they are suppose to protect an individuals right, willingly jumped on the change to pass laws that might net them some more extortion money. And then everyone bowed down and excepted it instead of protesting it.

OH darn it.... got me started on the freedom thing again....
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: manowar422 on April 23, 2006, 04:50:07 pm
Quote
Incidentally they wrote my citation for keeping 6 empty swarm-catching boxes.

Is this against some county code :?  :?  :?

I think It may be time to contact the local ACLU chapter.
You are being HARRASSED, major big time :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

Grow Arundo donax, GROW :!:  :!:  :!:
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Hi-Tech on April 23, 2006, 08:30:26 pm
I would definately say it is attorney time...
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: ctsoth on April 25, 2006, 12:06:39 pm
In minnesota I have to pay a small fee for my hives [25 dollars for under 50 hives, 100 dollars for over fifty hives] but my hives and their location get added to a list that farmers can request to see before spraying pesticides, and also the state inspector supposedly makes it out every couple years or years to go thru your hives and -supposedly- make sure they are healthy...  Although it really isn't the states business in my opinion...
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jack Parr on April 26, 2006, 09:48:33 am
Quote from: ctsoth
In minnesota I have to pay a small fee for my hives [25 dollars for under 50 hives, 100 dollars for over fifty hives] but my hives and their location get added to a list that farmers can request to see before spraying pesticides, and also the state inspector supposedly makes it out every couple years or years to go thru your hives and -supposedly- make sure they are healthy...  Although it really isn't the states business in my opinion...


Actually IT IS the States business.  It is the states business because the idea of the state IS to promote the common good for all the citizens.

In the matter of bees, IT IS the states business to have bees to help the farmers pollinate their crops that provide OUR FOOD.

One must have an understanding of the function of organized societies to have an appreciation of what the state can do to help beekeepers. Now if YOUR state beeman is NOT DOING his job it is YOUR perogative to contact YOUR representive and lodge a complaint.  In fact you should and just maybe the BEEMAN will perk up and pay attention. Of course there is also the little matter of budgets :?: state or taxpayer money to finance all the little nice things to have but aren't high priority.

Our state Beeguy has come to my place, inspected my hives,and provides advice if I call him. He is just a phone call away. He also keeps bees and belongs to the Bee club located in Baton Rouge, LA. A very nice guy to boot and we are on a first name basis.

Maybe ya'll ought to try to become engaged in the program instead of bitching and complaining  :idea:
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: bassman1977 on April 26, 2006, 06:59:53 pm
You know, just reading this thread really pee'd me off.  I'm an 11 year Navy Vet (and counting) and this is the type of crap that I'm out gettng shot at for?!?!?!?!  People have way too much to b*tch about these days.  If they would put this kind of effort into something productive instead of what the neighor is or isn't doing, or who's using what word to describe this or that, or who is worshiping whatever God on whatever day of the week, then this place might actually be a 100 times better.

BTW...if you didn't find out which neighbor it was, you can find out through the Freedom of Information Act.  I would make it a point and have some nose to nose words with that jerk.

Just my opinion, no need to fire back because my mind won't change on how I feel about this.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: ctsoth on April 27, 2006, 02:40:25 am
No, it is not the states business to tax me for my hobby.  I have a problem with other people trying to control the actions of others, especially if it results in an increase in tax revenue.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jack Parr on April 27, 2006, 06:50:49 am
Quote from: ctsoth
So, is your local government there to serve you as they would claim, or to establish dominion over you.

I would say that any local government is there to serve ALL the people. Even the ones that have a complaint against any activity that takes place on YOUR land.

IF your neighbor feels threatened by anything that you do then HE has the right to complain to the authorities.  IF his complaints are justified, YOU LOSE. In return YOU can always file suit against the complainer for harressment or some other concoted grievience.  Now YOU can always " get yer gun " to settle the score but again YOU WILL REALLY LOSE.

Sooo,  I suppose that is why there are courts of law to settle scores between warring neighbors.  

I think what is really needed here is AN EDUCATION IN CIVICS, or, is that no longer relevent .
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jack Parr on April 27, 2006, 08:24:59 am
Quote from: bassman1977
You know, just reading this thread really pee'd me off.  I'm an 11 year Navy Vet (and counting) and this is the type of crap that I'm out gettng shot at for?!?!?!?!  People have way too much to b*tch about these days.  If they would put this kind of effort into something productive instead of what the neighor is or isn't doing, or who's using what word to describe this or that, or who is worshiping whatever God on whatever day of the week, then this place might actually be a 100 times better.

BTW...if you didn't find out which neighbor it was, you can find out through the Freedom of Information Act.  I would make it a point and have some nose to nose words with that jerk.

Just my opinion, no need to fire back because my mind won't change on how I feel about this.


Further reading this thread I am intrigued by your statement. In the past 11 years where has the Navy " been shot at "? Are you a Navy Corpsman ? assigned to medicate the Jar Heads ?

I personally have 22 years of Army service. I am retired so let compare notes  and don't try the BS route on a REAL BS'er.  :wink: Some of these poor unknowing civilians? might get the wrong impression. Wouldn't want that now, would we?  After all THEY are paying to keep us and really THEY should have some straight POOP.  :P
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: bassman1977 on April 27, 2006, 10:06:22 am
I'm a Navy Seabee.  

I'm not comparing notes because I wasn't intending on starting a pissing match and now that I think of it, kinda regret even mentioning anything.  If you wish to go further on this, we can do it via PM but I'm not doing it in public chat.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: thomashton on April 27, 2006, 11:49:24 am
Yup. I can vouch for the Seebees.

We had several of them on my base in Northern Baghdad while I was there and they were just as suseptible to the mortars, rockets, and other incoming fire as we soldiers are.

They were just fortunate enough to not have to go out on the streets. But yes, our Seebees with us did get shot at . . . with indirect fire.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: bassman1977 on April 27, 2006, 12:34:37 pm
In our area, we were out in the streets, in polling stations, running supply convoys, and everything else.  That was about 50% of our unit.  The other 50% were doing camp improvements and other projects for the Army and Marines.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: thomashton on April 27, 2006, 01:02:39 pm
Great work Bassman.

Kind of hijacked this tread didn't we which is too bad as I am super interested in it.

Thanks for your service. The Seebees made my life in Taji all the better the year I was there.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled complaining about local government. :lol:
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: KONASDAD on April 27, 2006, 01:08:38 pm
Of a more practical matter regarding the alleged infraction. When you received your complaint, it MUST delineate the specific statutory citation w/ whcih you are alleged to have violated. Read the portion of the statute. Within the statute it will delineate the requirements of both you and the state's obligations. If you are being charged w/ a general nuisance statute independant of a beekeeping statute, your argument is that the beekeeping statute provides a statutory framework for compliance. If you are in compliance w/ the beekeeping statute, it should preclude prosecution under a general nuisance statute. By being in compliance w/ the beekeeping statute, you are by legal definition not a nuisance under any other statute. Any other interpretation would result in every beekeeper being a nuisance. The purpose of having a beekeeping statute is to define the appropriate ways and means to keep bees. Complying w/ the specific statute CAN NOT result in a violation of another statute. That would result in citizens being unable to know which statutes are controlling in every situation. That is an untenebale situation w/ no court would allow. Keep us updated please.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on May 11, 2006, 01:55:45 am
Following is some more information about this case:

These are the statutes referred to in the citation:
--------------------------
18.95.030 B4
4. The erection, construction, reconstruction or alteration of any structure, or the use of any property or structure, not in conformance with this code constitutes a violation;
[How am I not in conformance?]

18.07.030 E
E. Beekeeping is permitted in all zones subject to the requirements of this section:
1. Density. Except in the Institutional Reserve (IR), Rural Homestead (RH) and industrial zones (CPI, CI-1, CI-2, CI-3) wherein one colony is allowed per 2,500 square feet, the following maximum number of colonies per lot area apply:
a. One-quarter acre or less: 2 colonies
b. More than 1/4 acre to less than 1/2 acre: 4 colonies
c. One-half acre to less than 36,000 square feet: 6 colonies
d. 36,000 square feet to one acre: 8 colonies
e. Greater than one acre: 8 colonies plus one colony per additional 2,500 square feet of lot area above one acre. (I was keeping only 6 colonies)
2. Bee hives shall be kept a minimum of thirty feet from any exterior lot boundary line.
3. Except for lots with an area greater than one acre  (the property in question is 1.04 acres, making it exempt from this requirement, yet I have established such a barrier of shade-cloth for my own convenience) , a barrier shall be erected that will prevent bees from flying through it. Such barrier shall:
a. Be at least six feet in height and shall consist of a dense plant or hedge or any opaque constructed material;
b. Extend at least eighteen feet beyond the hive(s) in both directions.
4. Fresh, clean watering facilities for bees shall be provided on said premises.
5. Upon determination by a zoning inspector that a property owner is not in compliance with the zoning standards for beekeeping, the Pima County health department shall be notified. If the same property owner is determined to be keeping a colony or colonies deemed a nuisance or hazard by the health department, the course of action shall be determined by the health inspector in cooperation with the zoning inspector.  (when does zoning perform the requirements of this paragraph?) (The Health Department has made two separate inspections, having received their own complaints. I have copies available. My bees pass with flying colors both times.)  
6. Exceptions:
a. An exception to the provisions of this subsection shall be permitted for a period not to exceed sixty days for bees actively participating in commercial agricultural activities.
b. Nothing in this subsection shall be deemed or construed to prohibit the keeping of bees located or kept within a government facility, a school, or a university facility for the purpose of study or observation.

-------------------------------

The statute, repeated above, as specifically pertains to Beekeeping, clearly outlines the requirements of the beekeeper and those of the county officials. The purpose of having a specific statute that applies to Beekeeping is to define the requirements for keeping bees. By complying with this specific statute, how can I then be in violation of another statute? If this were true it would be impossible to know which statutes were controlling in every situation, and furthermore it would result in every Beekeeper in Pima County to be in violation.

Neither of the two statutes stated (see above) as violations of the Pima County code by citation PO6ZV00159-1, indicate any such violation.

The bees were temporarily relocated off the property on 10 April 2006 and have not yet been returned.

Thanks KONASDAD for your input.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Yarra_Valley on May 11, 2006, 02:52:20 am
Your hearing is today isn't it? Good luck!
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: randydrivesabus on May 11, 2006, 06:31:58 am
yes....good luck Joseph.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: TREBOR on May 11, 2006, 09:45:42 am
Quote
If the same property owner is determined to be keeping a colony or colonies deemed a nuisance or hazard by the health department, the course of action shall be determined by the health inspector in cooperation with the zoning inspector.

   so..... they can make they're own rules anytime it suits them....
Quote
Of course, zoning enforcement drove by on the 17th and issued us, 3 - $750 citations. Two for my brother's hobbies, playing with old cars (keeping a junkyard) and having his workspace outdoors (open storage). Incidentally they wrote my citation for keeping 6 empty swarm-catching boxes.

 so sence you wont do what they tell you, they go after your family as well........sounds like the MOB....!

Quote
I think It may be time to contact the local ACLU chapter.
You are being HARRASSED, major big time    

   YUP, if it were me I would put the max number aloud, and by all means take it to the state level, and if that dosn't work, go to the federal level
  bring it out into the open so everyone can see it, .....for what it really is..  there may be some job openings...!

 Good Luck.......... :)
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: KONASDAD on May 11, 2006, 10:51:25 am
IMHO, sometimes less is more in these situations. I would contact your state Dept that in charge of beekeeping. Dept of Agriculture for example. Start asking soem questions . Empty hives are not hives, they are boxes. A hive is a living breathing community. You dont say in your letter how you have alleged to have violated. Perhaps a call to your local representative would be of assistance too. Bees ae a vital part of the economy. Keep us posted.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on May 12, 2006, 02:06:25 am
KONASDAD,
The citation references the two sections of the zoning code (see my earlier post) and then states the violation to be, "Beekeeping without a permit".

This seems rediculous, nowhere in the code is there any reference to any permit for beekeeping.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Yarra_Valley on May 12, 2006, 04:29:32 am
So what's the end result?
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on May 12, 2006, 11:41:13 am
Turns out this was just the arraignment hearing. They weren't interested in any input at all. So, all I got was an actual future hearing date of 15 June 2006. At this hearing they simply received my pleading (my plee was [responsible], the options were, responsible/not responsible/no contest). I didn't even need to say a single word.

Keep in mind that they seem to be attempting to confuse the issue by also citing us for having about 1/2 dozen inoperable vehicles (my brother's hobby), and also a citation for the clutter that goes with the vehicles. The plan now is to clear the vehicles and clutter in the next several weeks. Have them reinspect to then set aside those citations. I will need to return at least one hive by that time (I plan to use one of the Italian Cordovan's - so gentle you'd have to squeeze them against your skin to even get them to sting) - so they won't set aside the beekeeping citation, then I can take that "Beekeeping without a permit" issue to the actual hearing.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Brian D. Bray on May 13, 2006, 02:52:58 am
As I retired cop I get peeved when I see local officials exceeding their authority.  The citations for the vehicles is an attempt to validate the citation about the bees.  Just the thought of AHB's drive some people crazy these days.

Have a copy of the ordance (posted previously) and read it to the court.  The DA will hate that but it gives you the chance to determine if the zoning official or the DA have done their homework.  Chances are that the DA will dismiss at this point.

At the hearing you get to cross examine witnesses.  Have the court supena the two health department officials as defense witnesses.  If you've got copies of their reports go over those with each while they are on the stand.  Focus additional questioning as to how close were they to the hives etc as well as review the ordance with them and get their opinion as to whether they believe you are complying with it.

The Municipality (which includes a county by definition) must present its case to prove you guilty.  If the citing officer is not at court the DA will attempt to have a continuance--refuse and demand a trial then and there.  The DA will be forced to dismiss.  They may then try to recharge you again later but if so then just go in and cite the prior dismissal and the reason why and the court should dismiss with predjudice and lecture the DA.

If the citing official is in court focus on how close he got to the bees, whether he observed bees coming in and out of the hives at the time, etc. If he says he did (and he will) I hope you have witnesses to your having moved the bees and set up the dummies because you can then impeach the SOB.  Case dismissed, case closed.

This is not legal advise, I'm merely relating, from my own experience, how a court will most likely operate during a trial or hearing in a case similar to yours.
Title: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Yarra_Valley on June 23, 2006, 05:34:54 pm
Hey Joseph,

what happened on the 15th?
Title: Re: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on March 19, 2007, 02:47:23 am
Sorry to have kept everyone hanging for so long. A few distractions have kept me busy until recently.

So here is a (not too brief) update:

There was an actual hearing with the hearing officer presiding, zoning enforcement was present to give their case. They reduced the fines they were asking for the disabled vehicle infraction and the junk collecting to $200 each. To stress the point that this was about my keeping bees, they asked the hearing officer for a $250 fine for keeping the bees. Then I presented my case, the hearing officer asked for copies of all my supporting documents, including my logs of phone conversations I'd had concerning the beekeeping issue. He then deliberated through the weekend, and on Monday gave his decision. He upheld the $200 fines for each of the unrelated infractions, but disregarded the zoning enforcements request of a $250 fine for the beekeeping and instead reduced it to $1. If my brother could have completed the cleanup of his collections within another 30 days all we would have to pay would have been the $1 for my bees, but he is still working at cleaning up his collections, and so he has had to pay those fines. I paid my $1 beekeeping fine, and still refuse to obtain the $40 "beekeeping permit". My brother is nearly finished cleaning up his collections (I hope he gets done quickly), and there is a reinspection coming soon. I returned one active hive to the apiary enclosure soon after the final hearing, I created the enclosure for the comfort of the bees, and for my own comfort, it was not required by the statute in the code.

The hearing officer, in his decision, explained that the zoning enforcement supervisor was granted broad powers to interpret the code -- the beekeeping permit is her own interpretation of the code. The zoning officer who began my case, was a recent hire to that department, from the beginning he has been appologetic and cordial, explaining that he came to this job from law enforcement and that he was astonished by many practices of his office. Almost immediately after my final hearing he quit the job. My last inspection was done by his immediate supervisor, not the woman who has the final say. He confided that he knew of the county supervisor's intentions to eliminate beekeeping in our county. He did not intimate what her motives might be. But added that it was she, the county supervisor, that was pressuring them to take such stronghanded tactics in my case.

However, the hearing officer seems to be the more rational and just in managing the beekeeping issue. If I am cited again for beekeeping, I hope my earlier hearing will help any future issues in this regard. If so, I am not too unhappy to pay $1 fines each year, rather than $40 for an imaginary permit.
Title: Re: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Understudy on March 19, 2007, 06:54:38 am
Wow, just wow.

I understand the code enforcement wanting to keep the neighborhood clean and them telling your brother to clean up the junk cars. I don't completely agree with it but I understand it.
But it seems like they still wanted to cite your brother for having the bees more than anything else. If he cleaned up the cars he still would have had to pay $1 for the bees. That seems rather bogus. Granted $1 isn't much but the broad powers to interpret the code seems a bit of a stretch. The $1 fine seems like an excuse for them to say look we screwed up and we want to make it go away but we refuse to give up our power.
And since you are a little peon in the code enforcement eyes we will make it seem like we are handing you a gift. Granted it is easier to pay the $1 than to continue the fight but I do not believe they are right.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: AllanJ on March 19, 2007, 09:40:29 pm
"The hearing officer, in his decision, explained that the zoning enforcement supervisor was granted broad powers to interpret the code"

This, IMO, is exactly what is wrong with most local bullies.. sorry, I mean government people.
Title: Re: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Jerrymac on March 19, 2007, 09:46:34 pm
Like excepting a plea bargain when you aren't guilty.
Title: Re: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: AllanJ on March 19, 2007, 11:18:44 pm
Or apologizing to your wife when it is obvious she was the one at fault..
Title: Re: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Joseph Clemens on March 19, 2007, 11:28:14 pm
It's bad enough that we beekeepers have to put up with AHB, foulbrood, drought, flood, weather extremes, insecticides, fire, CCD, mites, wax moths, hive beetles, and etc. But when your local government starts putting the squeeze on you -- it is pretty despicable.

Apparently it is most desirable, for some, to eliminate beekeeping, with the expectation that by doing so they will increase the desirability of the area as a retirement destination.
Title: Re: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Zoot on March 20, 2007, 12:00:31 am
Fortunately, we live in a state that has a fairly progressive attitude towards beekeeping (it is illegal to keep bees in Wash DC though). Even with that in mind, all of the hobbyists we know have the same philosophy - KEEP A LOW PROFILE. Inoperable vehicles, etc., around a property are notorious bait for busy-bodies. It gives them an "in" to get the local officals nosing around for other issues. Who needs it? We all live on farms here yet as the cancerous growth of sprawl and it's accompanying stupidity approaches we know that nothing can be taken for granted anymore, laws or no laws.
Title: Re: Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel
Post by: Brian D. Bray on March 20, 2007, 10:47:55 pm
The implimentation of punative powers must come from ordinances not administrative discrestion.  You were robbed of exactly $1.00.  The implimentation of a beekeeping permit, unless the action is specifically authorized by a legal ordinance is illegal.  If such power were specifically authorized by ordinance the name of the permit would be cited and outlines made for development of fee and fine standards.  In other words, it would amount to a beekeeping enforcement ordinance.  Governmental employees attempt to excercise such power because "they" are the government and what the government does must be legal--WRONG. 
If there is not a county or municipal ordinance that outlines the authority of the planning director in setting up and enforcing such fees and fines they exceeded their authority.  The judge took the easy (politically correct) way out of the situation.  Research the applicable ordinances at your local law library, (usually found at the county seat near the superior courts).  Anyone member of the public has the right of access and research.