New Bee Knows Little, Learns Less

[Dmrauch]

Today I went back into my hive, created from nuc last Saturday.  I learned how much I don't know. 

I have read half a dozen books cover to cover, watched youtube videos by the score, read forum discussions, both the current and the archived. I have taken multiple classes and attended talks on subjects I had no clue even existed.

And I feel so lost.

Today I learned that I have no fear of the bees.  I can be at the hive with no gear and be okay.  BUT, as soon as I start looking at the frames I become utterly terrified.  Terrified that I will kill the queen or convince the bees to leave.  Out of the five frames from the nuc, I got the first three out and took pics of both sides so I could leisurely look for the queen.  I took pics of the last two frames but my hand was shaking so bad I got nothing usable.

Today I learned that I need at least two more hands to look in a hive and take pics.

Today I learned that all my reading hasn't taught me to understand what I am seeing.  For example, in this photo, I see queen cells.  I have read that it might be a generality but is definitely not an absolute, that queen swarm cells hang off the bottom and supersedure cells are on the face.  But I learned that I really don't understand what this means.  Do the queen cells mean my bees are taking precautions or are the unhappy with the queen who supposedly was introduced and determined to be laying?  Is the queen, who I can't find, going to be replaced?  Should I do something about this?



Today I learned that I don't know enough to recognize brood.  I have read about brood, uncapped and capped.  I have been following the current threads on laying workers.  I love the photos and see the multiple eggs.  But when looking at my frames, I see nothing I recognize or understand.
What should I be seeing on this frame?  Is the corner capped honey like I suspect?  I have many sides (4) that contain only this so I labeled it honey.  But why is it grayish?  Is something wrong with it?  And the nice yellow looking stuff next to it?  Is that more honey or is that the brood I am looking at?



Today I learned I might not be cut out for this.   

Dena

Tomorrow I plan on waking up and reading more and finding more pictures of what things look like.  Tomorrow I plan on learning more about bees than I know today.  Tomorrow. 

[Psparr]

Only see two pictures. The others say I'm not allowed to view attachments. Not sure what that's about.
But that being said, the two pictures I see look like beautiful well populated frames. Yes that's honey in the corners. The leathery looking cappings are just older honey. The yellower, newer honey. Capped brood will be a little convex whereas the honey is about flat if not concave. Can't see any brood under all those bees, but it's there. You may smush a few bees moving frames around, but play the odds. There's only one queen and thousands of bees.  A little smoke and a good nectar flow and the bees couldn't care less if your handling the frames. Enjoy your time with them.

[Psparr]

Just looked closer at your pictures. I see capped brood under there!

[Dmrauch]

I only put in two pictures but I fought for hours to convince the forum to let me upload them.  Too big.  jpg allowed but not jpeg.  couldn't do it on the pad, finally went to the iMac.  And to think, once upon a time I was a systems design analyst.  I probably have something left over from the first thousand tries.

Thank you for telling me there is brood there.  I will look again at the original photos and try to see it.  That makes me the happiest bee haver in the world.

I will be braver about looking at frames.  Maybe Saturday when I install the second nuc.  Or maybe the Saturday after that.

[PhilK]

Honey cappings are flat and 'uniform'. Bees often cap more than one cell of honey at a time so you lose the distinction between cells. Brood cappings are much more 'individual'. You can tell they are brood because you can see the caps are on individual cells. They're also matt coloured generally and convex.

Looks like you have a capped queen cell in your first photo - from my understand once it is capped the old queen has gone (swarm), but if it's a supercedure cell I'm not so sure. Wait for one of the experts to answer that one!

You're going to feel like you know nothing a lot more in the coming months. Don't stress about it, just enjoy

[little john]

Today I went back into my hive, created from nuc last Saturday. I learned how much I don't know. 

Sounds good to me ...

The people who have a serious problem with beekeeping (and other pursuits) are those who don't know that they don't know. 

To know that you don't know is a good position to be in - because you can now proceed to gain whatever knowledge is necessary to rectify those deficiences.

But, a caution:  you'll never know everything about bees. Just when you think you've got them 'sussed', they'll do something different - just to show you that you're only a human being with limited understanding of them ... whereas they are BEES.

LJ

[Dabbler]

Dena   Relax and enjoy. You obviously care about understanding and doing the "right" thing. You are discovering the difference between book smart and street smart. Just give it some time and the street smart will start to equal your book smart.

A local mentor will help speed the learning process. In the mean time, you have the Beemaster forum and its seemingly endless numbers of experienced  (myself NOT included - I'm a newbee as well)  beeks.

[KeyLargoBees]

Dena the Bees have been doing this for a lot longer than we humans have been around....one of the members on this forum has a tag line that pretty much sums things up "the bees fix all my mistakes". Learn and observe...and if its in your nature journal about something new you learn every day....in 6 months to a year go back and read those journal entries and you will amaze yourself with how far you have come and how those amazing "new" discoveries seem old had and commonplace.

[GSF]

Dena, My only mentor was this forum board. I had a ton of head knowledge but almost nil on the hands knowledge. On the first frame I see at least two, maybe three swarm cells. I'd scrape the two smallest ones. If all the frames are that populated you need to do a split before they split for you(swarm).

If you have any empty equipment set it up close by. "When" you have a swarm they may or may not move into it. Most new beeks have the same phobia's as you described. This should help, remove two frames of bees, take your glove off and slowly stick your bare hand all the way to the bottom, pull it out. I am very careful not to do anything that'll kill the queen. After the number of colonies I had and have my attitude is simple; Oh well, they'll make another one, if they don't I'll add eggs from another hive. When I look for the queen I generally look for a couple of things; A big shiny black thorax and/or a very long (in comparison to her surroundings) abdomen. Sometimes I look from the top down and her abdomen will stick out like a carrot.

Watch the population if it goes down then you had another swarm. If you find the queen move her out and let the bees raise another one off of the swarm cells.

That's a good looking frame of bees. In a way a frame of bees represents what a hive should look like. You have honey, pollen, and brood. If you go back in and the end of a swarm cell is evenly chewed open - like a man hole cover, then she's hatched.

Learning about bees is a very interesting challenge.

[Rurification]

This forum has been my mentor, too.   You're doing fine.   I went through the same thing you're going through.   I just never know what I am going to 'not know this time'.    So, I read this forum every day, look at the pics, ask questions.   When I know I need to do something with the bees, I make a plan and write it down to take with me out there so I don't get so flustered when faced with the inevitable 'OMG What do I do now' moments.   Having multiple hives is a real blessing as a frame of eggs and brood from one hive to a weaker one will fix a multitude of problems.    Good luck and keep posting.

[iddee]

Don't worry, you will soon know what you need to know. After ONLY 40 years of beekeeping, I would say I know nearly 10 % of beekeeping. OK, maybe 7 %.  Anyway, I'm still having fun. Hang in there, it's an enjoyable, if bumpy, ride.

[Dmrauch]

First, a BIG thank you for all the encouragement.

At the local bee club I asked if anyone would mentor but I live an hour out towards the boonies, so no takers.

One gentleman did convince me to go with two hives instead of my original plan of only one.  The second nuc arrives this weekend.  Decided to go with a different source for bees and queen to see the differences.

Saw where a gentleman is offering online mentoring for $20 a month.  You can send pictures, ask questions, get video tips.   Seriously thought about it and then realized I have that here.

You have given me great encouragement and renewed confidence.

Thanks

Dena

[rwlaw]

"Today I learned that I have no fear of the bees.  I can be at the hive with no gear and be okay.  BUT, as soon as I start looking at the frames I become utterly terrified.  Terrified that I will kill the queen or convince the bees to leave."
It goes a little deeper than that, the fear comes from waaay long ago when our kind figured out that the hum of a disturbed hive is something that's going to cause a lot of discomfort it we don't get the heck out of there. It's just something you have to block out.
I was the same way when I started handling frames, nervous as a long tailed cat trapped in a room full of rocking chairs.Try going and popping the inner cover just to get accustomed to the hum, your not going to disturb them that much and you won't be so jumpy when you have to do an inspection.
When your looking at frames stand wilh the sun at your back and if the bees get in your way, gently blow on them and they'll move away from your breath. Pretty quick you'll be able to see eggs, different stages of larvae etc.
 

[Dmrauch]

Regarding the queen cells-
In the five frame nuc, there are ten sides of the frames. 8 sides looked full of bees as these two sides in the pictures. One side, an outermost side, had no bees on it and seemed to be not drawn out. The other outermost side had enought bees that my spread hand would barely cover them, so half the area of the side covered in bees and capped honey.

I put the five frames in an 8 frame box with two empty frames (plus an in hive feeder filling up the rest of the box).  The haven't started on the new frames (foundationless).

I thought the queen cells might be from crowding while in the nuc. I certainly don't want my bees to swarm.  Will having more room now help or are they set on a path of doing something with those queen cells.  Swarming, superseding, something.  Something that requires some action from me?  And telling me step by step what that something I need to do would be most helpful.

And on the subject of queens. In the photo without the queen cells, with the splotch of grey and yellow honey.    Across the top are first, a set of six holes.  Then a set of three holes.  And then the first et of two holes.  Going straight down from two holes to the middle of the frame, is a bee that to me, looks longer and wider and different. Wish I knew how to write on pictures, but is this my queen?

I was told the nuc was made up of italian mix bees with a darker queen.

[Dmrauch]

Rwlaw,
Thank you.  What a comforting explanation.  I can do that.  Just take the two covers off and watch a while. 

I just realized that having the sun at my back puts me in front of the hive.  From reading about hive placement, face the hive southeast.  Toward the rising sun.   Also read, don't stand in front of the hive, work from the back so you on't block bees coming and going.  So I am standing at the front of the hive, off to one side, to put the sun over my shoulder?

I really like this idea of yours to overcome my anxiety.  Thanks again

Dena

[akwusmc]

I just realized that having the sun at my back puts me in front of the hive.  From reading about hive placement, face the hive southeast.

Dena,

I'm a newbee as well and my biggest fear was hurting a bee. Now that I've been into my hive 3 times, I'm trying to get rid of gear as quickly as possible (the gloves came off after the first visit!).

I work my hive from the side (mostly because the prevailing wind keeps smoke out of my face) ... from there it's just a 90 degree turn to get the sun at my back, and the bees don't seem to mind one way or the other.

aw

[mtnb]

Welcome dmrauch.  I think you'll be fine with a name like that. rauch=smoke in german lol Just keep your smoker lit. lol 

I was were you are just last year. You will be fine. I promise. Same situation. Other beekeepers an hour and more away but nobody wants to come to me. lol Read TONS of books, videos, etc, but then you see the real thing and you're going...wth am I seeing? lol You'll start to see patterns over time. You'll learn to recognize what's what and see it change over time. It's super fascinating to watch them build up and grow. They are just amazing! I know they say not to inspect too often, but with no help here, I looked in every 7 days last year at first. Over time you'll get to know what's going on and you won't need to go in so often, nor tear the nest apart to know the queen is still there. Towards the end of July, I only started looking in every 2 weeks or so. Inspecting often my first year has really helped me learn a lot!

I'm not sure what you do, but I take out the outermost frame completely and just lean it up against my hive stand. It's mostly just honey, nothing, or drone comb, so the queen won't be on it most likely. With that frame out, you have plenty of space to slide the others over and pull them straight up and out without touching too much.

It's only been a week. Give yourself some time. It'll come. 

[GSF]

I looked but nothing jumped out at me. In case I wasn't clear enough do not destroy ALL the queen cells. With that many bees I'd bet if you don't have a queen you will before long. If you'd like, pm me and I'll give you my email address and you can send me some pictures. I'll be glad to look.

[OldMech]

   I didnt read all the posts, so am probably repeating what others have said... but... relax, and take it one step at a time.

    Bees will build queen "cups" all the time, they are not queen cells until there is an egg or larvae in them..   what you are experiencing is information overload, or as I have heard others say in the past, they have studied themselves into confusion.  There is so much information to process, and so many different methods and ways of keeping and managing bees that it CAN be very intimidation.     Take a step back, and try to learn the basics before you worry about all the rest of it.. I think it was Randy Oliver that said.. if your not sure what to do, then dont do anything. Not doing something is often a better choice than doing something your not sure of.
   MOST of us, have made mistakes and killed bees.  MOST of us, will make more mistakes and kill more bees........    You try to learn from everything you do so that you dont make those mistakes again.
    When you get time, read this, and see if it helps!    http://www.outyard.net/getting-started.html

[Acebird]

Dana,
My eyes are bad so I don't see these queen cells.  I see a lot of empty cells so that tells me they aren't cells, maybe cups.  You are looking at all the frames and all the frames make a difference.  If all the frames are full of bees than give them more room, what are you waiting for?  If there are indeed queen cells then good news you just advanced to queen rearing so just split the hive.
I will caution you to wear protective clothing especially the face.  Nucs are placid.  Full size hives are more protective and as a newbie you may not see the warning signs as you are in trouble and don't know it.  The thing to remember is if you dig into a hive and you get attacked it is your fault not theirs.

[cao]

Dena,
You typically work the hive from the side or back.  When you are looking at the frames you turn so that the sun it at your back and hold the frame so the sun shines into the bottom of the cells.  It natures flashlight so you can see the larva or eggs.  I looked at the pics.  It does look like there are queen cups/cells in the one pic.  What to do about it I couldn't say without seeing more.  I couldn't see in many of the cells because of all the bees.  If you need to look in the cells you can slowly use your hand to move a few of the bees out of the way. 

There has been a lot of good advice given already.  After a few more inspections you'll get more comfortable.  Remember you don't have to do a full frame by frame inspection everytime.  Even with my larger hives I may only pull a couple of frames.  Just to get an idea of how things are going.  If you find yourself getting anxious remember to stop and take a deep breath and slow down.  I still have to remind myself to slow down so I don't forget what I'm doing.

Remember:  slow down and breathe   
                   slow down and breathe 
                   slow down and breathe   

[OldMech]

Dana,
My eyes are bad so I don't see these queen cells.  I see a lot of empty cells so that tells me they aren't cells, maybe cups.  You are looking at all the frames and all the frames make a difference.  If all the frames are full of bees than give them more room, what are you waiting for?  If there are indeed queen cells then good news you just advanced to queen rearing so just split the hive.
I will caution you to wear protective clothing especially the face.  Nucs are placid.  Full size hives are more protective and as a newbie you may not see the warning signs as you are in trouble and don't know it.  The thing to remember is if you dig into a hive and you get attacked it is your fault not theirs.

   Well said, and in the fall they can become even more protective. I usually go without gear, but I have been getting stung for over 40 years and know it wont cause an allergic reaction..   There will also come a time, when a frame slips and hits the ground, or the hive... having no protection means that such times will be memorably painful....

[GSF]

what you are experiencing is information overload

I can relate to that. Before I first got goats I read and read and read - then I got them. I could name the disease/sickness, identify the symptoms and suggest a cure. Wouldn't you know it, after a short period of time I noticed every one of my goats had some symptoms of every disease I ever read about.

If you're that concerned, more likely than not you've done nothing wrong.

[Dmrauch]

Acebird -
  I am wearing protection, especially face protection.  But haven't put on the full suit I bought, only the bee jacket.  I do go from my normal attire of floor length skirt to jeans when out at the hive.  Haven't used the gloves yet at the hive because I don't like gloves, not for gardening or working the stock or painting the house.  But that is an issue between me and the gloves and has nothing to do with the bees.  I did purchase bee gloves.

  If I am just going to look at the hive and not open it up, I put on jeans instead of a skirt and take a hat with veil with me but no other protection.  Don't always put on the hat if I am standing more that 5 feet away, off to the side.  Probably should but I really like watching the little critters.

It is removing the frames that scares me and I am taking rwlar's advice of acclimating myself to the humming.  And then I do put on the veil and jacket.

The nuc was put in an 8 frame and has two empty frames.  The extra mediums arrived today and are ready to put on top of the deep.  Do you think they need another box already?  Or that it at least couldn't hurt?

I did not realize that I had several deeps and many mediums but they were a mix of 8 and 10 frame.  Yes I am so blonde.  I understand all the reasons for having all one size, either 8 or 10, and all one size, deep or mediums.  But this year is about keeping bees alive for 12 months.  Next year is for sorting through all that I know and making decisions about what size.

Dena

[Dmrauch]

cao
 Finally an explanation that I understand perfectly.  While in the back, turn my back to the sun. 

 I spent the first three months of the year taking meditation classes for medical issues.  You would think I could stay slowed down and breathing.  But I can practice that indoors.

 So many little things I didn't know I needed to know.

 I did the frame by frame because I didn't look at anything the day I transferred the frames from the nuc to the hive.  I thought if I took pics of each frame I could have the hive open a short while and yet be able to examine each frame in detail at my leisure.  It was my first and only frame by frame inspection.  Still think it was a good idea, even if the execution of it lacked.  As a famous man once said: I love it when a plan come together. 

GSF
  I remember having goats, and that reading and reading helped me see shadows every where.  Then we had tons and tons of chickens, some cows, some horses and a sheep.  More reading but these animals gave me the confidence that a city girl could raise animals.  Especially the chickens, ducks, geese and turkeys. That was when I learned that none of these animals can read.  Now I have alpaca.  They love eating the books.  The ducks don't listen when I tell them what the books say.
  I decided to get bees not having read anything. So I took a class and discovered I better start reading everything.  I think I have read myself into being scared that everything I do will be a mistake.  I remember it being 'easy' to raise bees when I was a child.  Now it seems Impossible.

I so appreciate all of the advice and encouragement.  It helps me to know that I am not the only one who has gone through this.  That it is 'normal'.  I will prevail.


Dena

[Acebird]

Dena,
I like blonds and I can assure you my wife is no ditz.  There is no book you can read that you can take as gospel and there is no person you can listen to and take them as gospel.  If I can have bees than any moron can have bees because for the most part I only get in their way.  Fear for the most part comes from inexperience so if you or anyone else has the guts to stick with it you will be a beekeeper.  You and several thousand people will kill bees but if you stick with it, learn what you do wrong and try to improve you will be responsible for bringing millions of bees to the planet.  It is a hobby you will cherish if you don't dwell on your past mistakes.

[yes2matt]

I've needed my gloves only twice.  But both times I was glad they were nearby. So were the girls, because I got their house put back together.

It's good you got two to start. 

[mtnb]

I only put in two pictures but I fought for hours to convince the forum to let me upload them.  Too big.  jpg allowed but not jpeg.  couldn't do it on the pad, finally went to the iMac.  And to think, once upon a time I was a systems design analyst.  I probably have something left over from the first thousand tries.

I was having the same problem. Very seldom can I upload a picture here. I just opened a free account under my screen name on photobucket.com and now I upload all my photos to it and then provide a link to it in my post here. It's so much less frustrating! lol

[Dmrauch]

Mt Bee Girl
Thank you so much for the clue re photo bucket.  I will check that out.  I like frustration free days.  Or doing things so they don't add to the frustration level of my days.

Dena

[rookie2531]

I agree with ace. Wear the gear, at least until you know what you are looking at and know why you are looking. Your goal should not be to be able to inspect in shorts and t-shirt. You will learn more if you feel protected. Jmo.