Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: zzen01 on February 24, 2011, 02:48:48 pm

Title: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: zzen01 on February 24, 2011, 02:48:48 pm
 :-x

http://omaha.com/article/20110224/NEWS01/702249780#lawmakers-defining-honey (http://omaha.com/article/20110224/NEWS01/702249780#lawmakers-defining-honey)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: D Coates on February 24, 2011, 03:16:46 pm
Sounds good until you think about bureaucrats poking their noses in this.  Will everyone who retails honey have to submit to testing?  Who's setting up the definition?  Who's going to test it, what if your girls get into a hummingbird feeder or something else and your honey fails?  Who's paying for this.  Are there better uses for their time and Iowan money?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Finski on February 24, 2011, 03:46:54 pm
.
In European Union honey has rules what stuff you can sell under the title of honey

Text from Australian origin


European Union

Edible bee products

Australia has a trading history with the following European Union (EU) member countries;
Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Luxembourg, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary,
Ireland, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom.
To export to EU member states, all Australian exporters must be aware of the bee product
provisions in Regulations (EC) No 178/2002, (EC) No 852/2004 and (EC) No 853/2004 and
must produce their bee products to comply with these regulations.
Exporters to the EU must register with AQIS and must have implemented a HACCP based
food safety program, which meets the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 852/2004. The
Australian Honey Bee Industry Council’s B-QUAL and other JASANZ accredited food safety
programs meet the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 852/2004.
All honey exported to the EU must be monitored for residues in compliance with Directive
96/23/EC. Due to the collaborative effort between the Australian Honey Bee Industry
Council (AHBIC), the National Residue Survey (NRS) and AQIS, all Australian honey meets
this requirement and exporters do not need to do further residue testing if the product they are
exporting is of Australian origin.
The European Union does not allow the use of antibiotics in bee products. The only antibiotic
allowed in Australian apiculture is oxytetracycline, which only a veterinarian can prescribe
for the treatment of an outbreak of European Foulbrood. Exporters cannot send honey to the
EU from properties that have treated their hives with oxytetracycline in the previous six
months.
The European Union permits the export of Australian honey blended with imported honey.
However, the honey must be the product of one of the countries allowed to send honey to the
EU. Each year, the EU updates this list and the list is current for 12. The current list can be
found in Commission Decision 2009/800/EC and has been reproduced at Attachment 1.
Exporters must ensure that the appropriate certificate, which they have accurately completed,
accompanies all edible bee product exports to EU member countries. An AQIS authorised
officer will check, sign and stamp all certificates for edible bee products to the EU. Manual
EU edible bee product certificates are available in English, French/English, German/English
and Italian/English.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Vetch on February 24, 2011, 04:15:55 pm
Without a standard of identity or legal definition of honey, anyone can sell anything and call it honey. 
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on February 24, 2011, 04:20:53 pm
From the article...

>>>>If the measure is enacted, products couldn't be labeled as honey unless they met the standard trade groups suggested.


Do you read between the lines? It's not a matter of IF a dispute arises, then testing could be used as a means to pull bad honey....this means that for YOU TO LABEL YOUR HONEY....YOU must first MEET the standard.

I've said it before and I'll keep repeating it. Those folks running down the street asking for the government to get involved, demanding definitions and a police state of control to protect their own interests, will promote the bloated future and system of inspectors, taxes and new permit fees, and the smothering of the small bee operators. I am saddened everytime a group asks for government to grow bigger and bigger in attempts to save us from ourselves. 

Sorry finski.....I don't wish to be like the EU.  ;)  As far as I'm concerned, we should do a bit less of shipping common products from half way around the world, when we could and should produce those products here. If you banned U.S. honey, and we banned European and Aussie honey here, that would be fine by me.  ;)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: The Bix on February 24, 2011, 04:40:34 pm
Amen Bjorn!  Caveat Emptor is the best, most efficient, cost effective way to go.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Bee Happy on February 24, 2011, 04:45:54 pm
90% of the honey I bought before I got my own bees was from either a guy who other people knew was a beekeeper, or I could see the hives from where I paid. - the other 10% might have been sue bee or some other product the origins of which I couldn't swear to from the grocery store . I guess "caveat emptor" has changed to  "rex praesidio infirma"
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: oliver on February 24, 2011, 06:15:26 pm
Illinois has enacted regs that if enforced will put  hobbyists and small bee keepers in a bind,,Basically put in with processed food group, if you extract it its processed if you cut comb honey out of the box its processed.. Therefore you must meet the requirements for processing food, think they just copied the slaughter house regs, which when enacted put most of the local meat processors out of business...I'm sure along with this will come fees and inspections,, welcome to the 21st century
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Vetch on February 24, 2011, 06:20:12 pm
Those crazy socialist beekeepers in North Carolina have been working for a standard of identity of honey for a while, along with a law to support it. They are almost there. Here are some parts I found to be interesting and/or valuable to the average beek.

Quote
2.    The definition of “Honey” is as follows: Honey is the natural sweet substance produced by honey bees from the nectar of plants or from secretions of living parts of plants or the excretions of plant sucking insects on the living parts of plants; which the bees collect, transform by combining with specific substances of their own, deposit, dehydrate, store, and leave in the honey comb to ripen and mature.  Furthermore, nothing may be removed from or added to that product if the material is to be labeled as honey”.
a.     Based on this definition, there is no difference between honey that is labeled as “Honey” or as “Pure Honey”.


1.     Geographic Origin of the Honey
a.     All honey must list a country or countries of origin if the product is not completely from the United States.
b.    Honey from multiple countries of origin should have the countries listed on the container in descending order of content.
c.    Honey labeled as produced in North Carolina must contain only honey produced in that state.


1.     Use of the Word “Honey” and Honey Labels
a.    If anything is added to honey, including natural flavors, then the final product may not be labeled as “Honey”.  For example, if blueberry flavor is added to honey then the product may be labeled as “Blueberry-Flavored Honey Syrup”; but it may not be labeled as “Blueberry Honey”.
b.    If anything is added to the honey, then the product may not use the term “Honey” as the final noun in the name of the product.  For example, a mixture of high fructose corn syrup and honey could not be labeled as “High Fructose Honey” but it could be labeled as “Honey Flavored Corn Syrup”.

1.     Violations of this Honey Standard
a.     A citizen of North Carolina may bring a complaint against someone selling a product labeled as honey, if they think the honey is in violation of this standard.
b.    The costs of such a complaint will be paid by the complainant unless the claim is verified by the NC Dept of Agriculture and Consumer Services.  In that case, the guilty party should be assessed to cover the costs of the complaint and the party bringing the Verified complaint will be reimbursed for their expenses.


http://www.wakecountybeekeepers.org/2010/08/state-beekeepers-adopt-honey-standard/ (http://www.wakecountybeekeepers.org/2010/08/state-beekeepers-adopt-honey-standard/)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Scadsobees on February 24, 2011, 10:39:02 pm
When the rules become so stupid and difficult to follow for most people, they don't.

Besides, who's got any budgets to enforce it? :roll:
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: D Coates on February 25, 2011, 10:36:17 am
If I read the NC regs that Vetch posted correctly, if you sold infused honey you'd have to change the final name to "syrup."  We'll, if I'm going to have to call it syrup why don't I go ahead and water it down with syrup as I will not be able to get the premium price for syrup that honey gets.  To me, this is exactly the type of "laws" that over reaching governments shackle on the "free" that do not increase our quality of life but burden us with red tape.  While Vetch's "crazy socialist" statement appears to be tongue in cheek (judging from prior posts), the posted regulations appear to made the unintended point.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: greenbtree on February 25, 2011, 11:12:17 am
I agree with Scadsobees - we don't enforce the regs we have now due to budget.

JC
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 25, 2011, 07:41:46 pm
Quote
If you banned U.S. honey, and we banned European and Aussie honey here, that would be fine by me.
 

You can cry about it or you can bury your head in the sand but today's market has gone global with no signs of reverting back.  You probably don't want to hear this but if you produce food on a large scale than you should be regulated like any other food source.  Why should honey be any different?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on February 25, 2011, 08:20:21 pm
Quote
If you banned U.S. honey, and we banned European and Aussie honey here, that would be fine by me.
 

You can cry about it or you can bury your head in the sand

Are these the only two options you can think of? Is this the only two options you have for yourself? So tell me....which do you do?

Quote
If you banned U.S. honey, and we banned European and Aussie honey here, that would be fine by me.
 

  You probably don't want to hear........


How do you know what I probably do, and what I don't want to hear? Or do you just take it upon yourself to know everything?

Quote
If you banned U.S. honey, and we banned European and Aussie honey here, that would be fine by me.
 

if you produce food on a large scale than you should be regulated like any other food source.  Why should honey be any different?

What are you talking about? The quote you copied had to do with the shipping of products from around the world, while I think it would be better to produce those products here.

As example.....I personally think shipping in bottled water from around the world in plastic containers is insane. Insane for the planet, and insane for this country's business.

While I do not think we should legislate or outlaw the right of any consumer, I personally do try to buy local, buy U.S. made products, and support my neighbors and local, state, and national economy, as much as possible. If you don't want to....that is your choice. I offered my opinion, and you come back with nonsense suggesting anyone apparently not with the same thought process as you...must be crying or has their heads in the sand. I do agree that we as a country will never change the fact that we import 70% of the honey consumed in this country, as long as folks like you are around. I do what I can. But I also don't complain about no jobs or the health of the economy when most of the consumer goods are brought into this country, and people like you encourage, accept, and do nothing to change it. Me....I do rather well. I hope you are also.

I have honestly tried to follow your logic and conversation, and just find most of it mind boggling. While others may respond with passion and take a jab, I think you try to do the same, but just miss the mark, time and time again.

Sorry, my comments and your reply are like oil and water. But you keep stirring...I'm sure you'll get there sooner or later.  ;)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Michael Bush on February 26, 2011, 01:08:51 am
As I understand it (I haven't seen the actual law being voted on but have heard the Nebraska Beekeepers Association take on it) it does not require any testing, but allows testing if there is a concern.  It just defines what "honey" is and allows some recourse if there is some suspicion as to whether it is honey or not.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Bee Happy on February 26, 2011, 01:16:43 am
(IMO) A clear definition is fine as long as its purpose is for civil action - (recompense for fraud or false advertizing)  If it's to be used to force more bureaucracy then no frikin thank you.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: oliver on February 26, 2011, 09:43:52 am
illinois regulation applys to all, not just large producers, its hard to justify a 10k upgrade to sell 500$ worth of honey..
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 26, 2011, 09:49:08 am
Quote
It just defines what "honey" is and allows some recourse if there is some suspicion as to whether it is honey or not.

BINGO!

Quote
But I also don't complain about no jobs or the health of the economy when most of the consumer goods are brought into this country, and people like you encourage, accept, and do nothing to change it.


We must be one and the same.  People here have suggested ways of making your efforts more effective and you don't even want to here it.  You don't understand my sarcasm so you interpret it incorrectly.  And because of who you are that is what sticks in their minds.  What makes you think I don't do anything.  True, I wouldn't lay down in front of a tank thinking it would stop it from running over me.  I am not a martyr, I am a realist.  I might pour honey in the fuel tanks the night before the demonstration.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 26, 2011, 10:20:35 am
Quote
its hard to justify a 10k upgrade


What in the regulations costs 10K?  Could you give us some examples?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: oliver on February 26, 2011, 10:29:13 am
Processed food regs, the facility , room, building, whatever or where ever you choose to process your honey  must comply, your home kitchen is not even close.. puts you in the same catagory as Kraft foods or excell ..
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on February 26, 2011, 10:44:38 am
 People here have suggested ways of making your efforts more effective and you don't even want to here it.  

Wrong again.... in just another useless jab. next time, please word it to suggest your own opinion, and please do not put words in my mouth, or think you know what I do and do not want.
I never said I did not want to hear it.

I said that I could not change the details for each and every point that dozens of people have suggested. That changing for one, fosters another change. And that at the end of the day, it never stops. You can not make everyone happy, and you get nowhere but stuck in the mud. I in fact have added, and changed some of the wording used. I have also received emails from some suggesting changes and word editing that was very much appreciated. I consider those people helpful. They understood that they could be helpful without needing to bolster their egos or slamming the effort publicly.  

I explained my efforts. And I suggested that those who want to support it...please do. Those who are worried about some particular detail and want to rationalize it for justification to do nothing, and not sign the petition, that is fine also.

But saying that I "do not want to hear it" is once again wrong, and denigrates the overall effort. But thank you for your "supposed" concerns, and your understanding.  :roll:

Now may I suggest going back to buying some ice cream and continue relegating any chance of improving the bee industry or making a change, to an ice cream company.  ;)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 26, 2011, 01:08:35 pm
You could compare it to a ice cream stand that operates 3 months out of the year.  The chances are you would never see the FDA or any other official on the premises once you passed the first inspection.  You wouldn't want to get sick from the ice cream would you?  Why is honey different?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: rdy-b on February 26, 2011, 05:12:14 pm
You could compare it to a ice cream stand that operates 3 months out of the year.  The chances are you would never see the FDA or any other official on the premises once you pasted the first inspection.  You wouldn't want to get sick from the ice cream would you?  Why is honey different?
 go buy some ice cream acebird-- :lol:
http://www.helpthehoneybees.com/ (http://www.helpthehoneybees.com/)   --RDY-B
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 26, 2011, 08:00:21 pm
Quote
Processed food regs, the facility , room, building, whatever or where ever you choose to process your honey  must comply,

Not that you would ever need to but you could rent a kitchen, hamburger stand, ice cream stand what ever that has already passed all the regs to produce 100 pounds of honey.  Regulation is funded by catching violators and fining them.  They have to make more than their salary so they are not going to fiddle around with a small fry.

How many inspectors have you seen at a church kitchen, firemens bazar or even a county fair?  There is no money in it.  If they were to harrass small local groups people will get together and shame the regulators.  You are worried about nothing.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Bee Happy on February 26, 2011, 11:22:04 pm
They have to make more than their salary so they are not going to fiddle around with a small fry.

That's exactly right - and in order to enforce the law uniformly - the small fry has to either get 100% compliant - or be denied a license to vend altogether - where if Mr/Ms. "Small Fry" proceeds to sell out of license s/he will be fined an appropriate amount to cover the hassle of having to hassle the small fry.
(sort of like when they outlawed journeyman tradesmen from doing side jobs - a traditional function of journeypersons since the invention of trades until recently - to the tune of Felony.)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Grandpa Jim on February 27, 2011, 04:52:41 am
I can tell you that here in PA the inspectors ARE checking the church kitchens, firemans bazaars and county fairs(if they operate for more than 3 days :?).   I have dealt with food inspectors for more than 30 years and for the most part they are fair.  But knowingly try to pull something over on them and they can make your life...we'll just say not so happy!! 
As of Jan 22, Pa has changed much of its food processor laws and they put everyone into the same category from Tastycake to Mom baking some cupcakes for the corner store....wait we don't have corner stores anymore..OK..a farmers market.  One of the first rules on the list is "No animals/pets in the home at anytime".  Does that mean that Goldy will have to be flushed before I am allowed to extract honey in my home??  Fred the hamster in my son's bedroom on the other end of the house has to go too.  And then there are the zoning permits..that's another story!!
Acebird, I do not know of any food service kitchens that are going to let you come in and extract and bottle honey between midnight and 5am (the only time most are not operating, if even then ....and I am sure that is your prefered time to do it) under their liability and such...not in today's world...not in my kitchen.
Jim
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: buzzbee on February 27, 2011, 08:17:49 am
Grandpa Jim,may I use your kitchen on Aug 15th?  :evil:
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: oliver on February 27, 2011, 08:42:56 am
Acebird, your thoughts and suggestions appreciated, but are not reasonable or feasable for me, the thought of locating and renting a kitchen, hauling full supers, extractor and what ever else is required, getting finished cleaned up and out on someone elses time frame, just does not get it for me.. As far as nothing to worry about, we live in a rural county, not many people, believe at last count 3 health inspectors, can't get lost in the herd..processors of any kind stand out like a dime in a goats ass..They shut down a boy scout fund raiser grilling pork chop sandwiches, after my family and I were already contaminated..Guess we should feel safer knowing these tax payer funded agents are out there looking out for well being..
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 27, 2011, 10:15:50 am
Quote
They shut down a boy scout fund raiser grilling pork chop sandwiches, after my family and I were already contaminated..Guess we should feel safer knowing these tax payer funded agents are out there looking out for well being..

I think you are saying you got sick.

Would you except animal fecal matter in your honey?  Do you think any of your customers would accept that if they knew about it?  Now I want to know if you process your honey in your kitchen how do you insure that you don't have contaminants getting into your honey?

Quote
under their liability and such...not in today's world...not in my kitchen.
Unless you are McDonald's restaurants usually close at least once a week.  The liabilities are no different than your food preparations.  You would have to approve their process and watch over them.  Then charge accordingly.  I don't think you would charge 10k would you?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Bee Happy on February 27, 2011, 10:34:49 am
...wrap the whole world in bubble wrap and disinfect every pre-packaged bite of soylent green. So who do I sue or fine for corralling away all the adventure and spontaneity, and freedom out of being alive? -I hate what you've done with the place.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: D Coates on February 27, 2011, 12:12:37 pm
I hate what you've done with the place.

Some folks are simply toxic and enjoy stirring the pot with snide comments and unpleasentries.  They have no real life and instead make an on-line one where they beat their as holier-than-thou chest an act like know it all bullies.  What I find ironic is they've never actually had to live by the regs/lifestyles they want to enforce on those who disagree.

In short, they are better off ignored.  Sadly, I've begun to visit this website less because of this.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Grandpa Jim on February 27, 2011, 11:21:53 pm
Buzzbee....Do you want the 12-3 or the 3-5am slot.    Both are open on Aug 15....But I will have to have my kitchen back at 5 as I have a breakfast meeting eating at 7 that day :)

Acebird....Yes I would have to oversee everything because if there would be a liability issue it would come back to bite me in the butt not you.  The other thing is.....there goes the 5 hours a day that I get to go home (we do operate 7 days a week and I am here everyone of them, including holidays) and what would you charge for that service in your line of work??

As for contaminated honey....do you know how that Chinese family processed the honey that is on the Big Box store shelf?   Do you think they had to flush their gold fish and remove their son's hamster before they extracted honey in their kitchen??  Do you think every barrel of honey that left China, went to Columbia (where the barrels were repainted so it would not look like it came from China), than went to Canada, where it was finally trucked into the US is really PURE HONEY just because some inspector certified a sample from 1 or 2 barrels??

If Goldy did happen to jump into a bottle of my honey and you bought it, you would not buy my honey again and you would tell 100 people not to buy my honey..and I would be out of business....but you would not be sickened.  Really, If I want to continue to sell any product, I will not let anything crap in it.  If you have a problem you would have bought it from someone you can find....try to find that family in China.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 28, 2011, 10:29:49 am
Quote
Acebird....Yes I would have to oversee everything because if there would be a liability issue it would come back to bite me in the butt not you.  The other thing is.....there goes the 5 hours a day that I get to go home (we do operate 7 days a week and I am here everyone of them, including holidays) and what would you charge for that service in your line of work??

Jim, we are talking about a small time operation 100# of honey.  This person is not going to seek out someone like yourself operating 7 days a week plus holidays.

Quote
If Goldy did happen to jump into a bottle of my honey and you bought it, you would not buy my honey again and you would tell 100 people not to buy my honey..and I would be out of business....but you would not be sickened.  Really, If I want to continue to sell any product, I will not let anything crap in it.  If you have a problem you would have bought it from someone you can find....try to find that family in China.

This is my argument.  You can't have regulation without having regulation.  If you want to stop the crap from China or anywhere else how can you do it without regulation?  It seems that people are paranoid about the government shutting down a garage operation but have no concerns about body scans and wire tapping.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Grandpa Jim on February 28, 2011, 12:19:18 pm
I think we agree that we should be able to insure that what we buy is safe, but we disagree as to how it should be done.  If China is sending us crap regulate imports.  I don't feel you have to regulate the locals selling to locals that have not had a problem, just because a some other country is sending in junk.

I feel education is better than regulation.  In food service we must have a person on staff at all times who has completed the Serv-safe certification.  I sent and paid for 4 employees, my wife and myself.  The class was good, but being that our government was involved it came down to the fee was the important part.  It's purpose was education....if you got 60% on the test you were certified (that means you got 40% wrong).  We all did much better than that, but (and I went around with the state on this) they could not tell you what you got wrong.  I was told it is a certified test and we cannot tell you the answers (it was multiple choice, if I got one wrong I want to correct it in my own mind...the purpose was education wasn't it??)  So the person preparing your food, in your favorite restaurant, could have had 40% wrong in handling food properly class and and the state cannot tell them what they did not understand.  The book had the questions on one page and the answers on the next, the test was multiple choice and tests were not all in the same order so where is the harm in telling someone what questions they had wrong so they can better understand food safty?? 

I don't want to rant here, it's just when we get government REGULATIONS they don't fix anyting, they just make doing anything a hassle and then they collect a fee (the important part).   Educate beekeepers on proper handling of honey, all these regulations will discourage many from even keeping bees, giving those imports a bigger market. 
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 28, 2011, 04:10:05 pm
Quote
I don't feel you have to regulate the locals selling to locals that have not had a problem, just because a some other country is sending in junk.

I don't feel you should regulate locals selling to locals either.  This is regulation going too far.  In most cases what tends to happen is a bureaucracy is created to look at the big picture.  Stop the atrocities that you mentioned and keep big industry from going astray.  All these regulations are funded by fine revenues and licensing.  As time goes on infractions decrease to the point that it can't support the bureaucracy that was created so they start looking at smaller and smaller businesses to get the revenue back.  What needs to happen is the down sizing of the bureaucracy when it is no longer required.  That is the part that people don't like about government.  It has no way of measuring its usefulness.  Once created it can't be abolished or reduced.  Initially though, it is a good thing.

Quote
I feel education is better than regulation.


In the case of the small fry, yes.  In the case of the big whale, absolutely not.  The big whale knows it is doing wrong but puts profit on a higher importance than integrity.  Left unabated the consumer will loose every time.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: oliver on February 28, 2011, 04:59:50 pm
I kept bees from the late 60's until 85, vandals with shotguns devastated an out yard incecticide via helicopter finished off what was left that summer, had niether the desire or finances to continue.. Kept 10 to 15 colonies. We had people calling for 2yrs after wanting to know if  honey was avail. My son and grandson have  some interest in bees, so I started going through what was left,(don't throw anything away) cleaning wood ware and eqip, quite a chore..have come up with enough good to put together 8 colonies..Then I was told about the new regs about processing honey here, felt like i got kicked in the stomach.. I don't think any amout of regulation or inspection can make a shoddy operator honest..A lot of it is a matter of trust, I trust the lady at the bake sale that those cookies are safe, they do not have ot have a gov stamp. I do not trust a lot of products from other countries, even though the gov has given the approval of their sale here.. It is an insult for someone to think I would give my family or sell anything to our neighbors that which was less than the best, or had been mishandled in any way..
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on February 28, 2011, 07:51:06 pm
Quote
I do not trust a lot of products from other countries, even though the gov has given the approval of their sale here..


We import so much.  I would not be surprised if you weren't eating something from another country and not even know it.  You really have to check labels but first there has to be a requirement to have one.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Grandpa Jim on March 01, 2011, 05:15:55 pm
Don't give them anymore ideas or your plate will arrive at your table with 10 sheets of paper explaining where every item came from, it's nutritional value, how soon you can expect to die if you eat too much of it etc. Two trees will die just to complete the paperwork for a wedding party of 100.

You are right, I look in my freezer; Snap peas...Guatemala, mixed vegetables ...Mexico, baby carrots...Israel,  Corn, most times from China, but right now it is from USA.  The box will say packed in New Jersey, but a product of some other country.  I have sent back corn from China (not to China) their quality is generally, well there is NO Quality!   
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: backyard warrior on March 01, 2011, 09:18:00 pm
I really think Bjorn and Acebird are bonding lately :)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: bullship on March 02, 2011, 12:40:45 pm
Fellow Beeks;
The 10K is way toooooooo low.USDA/FDA regs. WILL weed out all small operations!!!
To start a food business
County and Township permits for Approved sewer and well plus land use permit. may have to rezone as well.
water must be tested for coliforms and nitrates if it doesn't pass ,new well.
seperate building with no exposed wood, curbed wall and floor junction, sealed, Smooth easily cleanable floors, walls and ceiling.3 compartment sink, mop sink and seperate handwash sinks in all work areas. handwash must have hot and cold plumbed water,liquid soap, nail brush and single use towels.
drain lines and restroom drain lines can not junction inside building.All plumbing must be installed by a licensed plumber after a plumbing permit is obtained from the state.
All equipment must be NSF or equivalant.All for a $50.00 to $100.00 annual license and then a HACCP plan(paper plan for SAFE OPERATION with critical control points and logs)annual inspection and retain all records for 2 or more years.
Bullship: :? ;
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on March 02, 2011, 12:58:24 pm
For anyone who wants to know what bullship is talking about....


(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/beepictures214.jpg)

(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/beepictures215.jpg)

(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/beepictures216.jpg)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 02, 2011, 04:43:41 pm
I would think the wall mounted air conditioner is illegal but maybe not.  All the cardboard should be illegal but food prep maybe more relaxed then medical.  Certainly the cardboard on the floor has got to be illegal.  Loves?? :?

How many pounds of honey does this facility produce?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on March 02, 2011, 04:56:42 pm
I would think the wall mounted air conditioner is illegal but maybe not.  

Yes....you are wrong. It is not.

All the cardboard should be illegal but food prep maybe more relaxed then medical.  

What's wrong with cardboard? Most food comes in it.

 Certainly the cardboard on the floor has got to be illegal.  Loves?? :?

When you not in "operation" there is nothing wrong with what you put on the floor. When in operation, you can not have anything on the floor. You must have everything that you could pick up and put on a table, 6" off the floor on stainless steel stands. 5 gallon bucket....on a stand. 55 gallon drum....on the floor.

They do not expect a facility in operation to be "Inspectable condition" 365 days a year. I don't have to have my hot water tank on every day, or disinfectant in the sink 24 hours a day. They know in March, I am not extracting honey, and if they happen to walk in, they don't blink an eye if I use the room for some storage. They know who is operating fine, and those that are not.

 Loves?? :?

No clue what you are talking about.

How many pounds of honey does this facility produce?

None of your business.  ;)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on March 02, 2011, 05:37:13 pm
One side note about some misinformed comments about inspectors not looking at the small guys....

About 10 years ago, this was true. Once you passed your initial inspection, you might not ever see an inspector again as a honey facility. Honey ranks very low on the risk ladder. milk, dairy, slaughter houses, etc., all were the priority.

Over the past 20 years in Pennsylvania, the state cut inspectors from about 55 positions to about 20. You see, there just was not many significant problems, and many facilities (like honey houses) just did not demand yearly inspections.

But the state (and the Union) caught on, and figured to use a few isolated problems (to keep us all safe of course) to call for increased inspections and bulk up the number of inspectors. Now, instead of casually looking the other way and not really checking in on such places like honey houses, they use the letter of the law to inspect every facility yearly. You see....that is job protection. That means more inspectors for the state. That is more union paying dues. And those number of inspectors once again are at numbers not seen in many years.

Seems state positions have really expanded in the past couple years with few noticing.

So don't kid yourself. job security and justification for the positions translates into actual inspections of EVERY facility, and you better believe they are out to find something.

I'm sure the same model is not just confined to Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 02, 2011, 05:46:23 pm
Quote
What wrong with cardboard? Most food comes in it.

Cardboard is a breeding ground for flees, germs, bacteria, mold, and algae.  All it needs is moisture.
Container board has a wax coating and is resistant to these problems.  Usually only frozen foods or dry ingredients are packed in this type of board.  Many times there is a sealed plastic liner that the food is packed in first.

Quote
No clue what you are talking about.

Sorry misspelled it, Luvs diapers.  Second photo, lower right.

Quote
They do not expect a facility in operation to be "Inspectable condition" 365 days a year.

Ooh, don't say that to loud.  Your inspector might not care but I am sure that is not in the regs.  The whole purpose of the stainless and hard walls is to control contamination.  If you close a restaurant and reopen it later on there would be a re-qualification of the facility.  There is no way you can do anything you want when you are not processing honey.  Be careful who you say that to.  The next inspector may not be so lenient.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: rdy-b on March 02, 2011, 05:47:36 pm
  There was allot of Humbug stirred up in 2002 with the BIO-TEROISOM ACT
 for the inspections of food processing locations-would of put the hurt to allot
of small Beekeeping operations-but when the dust settled in california we got the green light
with farm exemptions-as long as we sell from our farm there are many interpretations of that-RDY-B
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 02, 2011, 06:02:35 pm
Quote
None of your business.


Touchy aren't we.  :)

I asked because you can make the process self contained whereby the frames are capped, extracted, sieved, and the honey packaged into buckets without touching human hands.  In itself the machine is the facility and controls contamination.  You would just need a sanitizing program after the honey is packaged for the next run depending on the time lapsed.  Possibly the machine would be blister wrapped if it were a long time.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on March 02, 2011, 06:08:34 pm
Acebird,
You never stop do you.

You question someone about a $10,000 facility, and I show you a simply facility that would cost that much that does little more than process honey.

Then you analyse the photo commenting on such things as air conditioners, to which you have no clue.

Now you comment on things I have already discussed with my assigned inspector. As I said, they do not require the facility to be up and running from the sense that the hot water needs to be on daily, or that I need to have disinfectant in the sink.

They may, because they understand I only operate my facility a few days each year, ask to visit on one of those few days when I am extracting. So If they ask, I let them know when we will be up and running. The rest of the year, they don't care about me disconnecting the water tank in winter, storing some boxes, or any other anal thing you keep bringing up. About the only thing they want to see is the water certificate.

And you comments about cardboard in a food processing facility is way off also, but of course you know best.

It's funny how one day your suggesting nobody looks at small honey guys, then you making it sound like they are running up guys butts worried about cardboard. Every glass jar I buy comes in cardboard boxes. That is why you have a wash, rinse, and disinfect sink. You clean the glass jars prior to using them.

I personally know my inspector. I don't need to "hush" anything. I know what they require, they know what I do, and it's no big deal.

Is there anything else you want to pick over in the photos?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: buzzbee on March 02, 2011, 06:22:27 pm
Do you realize Honey is one of the best,if not the best inhibitor of bacterial infections? This is not the same as processing hanging livestock in a slaughterhouse. I think someone wants to pick a fight at every post.
Nice extracting room Bjorn!
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: The Bix on March 02, 2011, 10:02:14 pm
Back to the original subject...this is one of the best explanations of why laissez faire / capitalism is the worst economic system (except for every other economic system)

Milton Friedman - Greed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A#)

I miss Uncle Milty.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: hardwood on March 02, 2011, 10:56:46 pm
I've got something to pick on Mike. I personally think the decor is a little drab. Maybe a splash of color here and there would help to keep the working class in a better mind set? Maybe pipe in some soothing music...Yanni perhaps?

Great honey room, I'm jealous.

Scott
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: rdy-b on March 02, 2011, 11:50:03 pm
 I would like to know is that really a air-conditioner
or do you use it for dehumidifier--RDY-B
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: oliver on March 03, 2011, 08:01:25 am
Bjorn  Very nice facility,,Years ago a teenager could go to work here about any time  small farmers  always needed help. Thats long gone..16 yr old grandson had expressed interest in the bee stuff in top of the barn, big kid willing to work but very little avail..In my infinite wisdom suggested setibg up a few colonies, he could help learn and sell, havent told him yet the government probably won't allow this to happen..Contemplating doing the upgrade.. even though I disagree with the regs, don't think it would be a very good lesson, teaching  akid maybe how to fly under the radar..Then again if they keep pilling on restrictions, that might come in handy some day..take care , have a very nice day
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 03, 2011, 11:20:55 am
Quote
Then you analyse the photo commenting on such things as air conditioners, to which you have no clue.

I am only trying to help you (maybe some others too) understand what contamination is and how to prevent it.  I am not experienced in the food industry but I am experienced in the medical industry.  Control of contamination is very similar.

In a medical facility you would have to remove the jars from the cardboard box outside the room and place in a plastic bin / cart before bringing them in the room to be sanitized.  You are not allowed to bring in ANY cardboard into the room because it will instantly contaminate the sanitized jars with fibrous particulate in the air.  You could spend 100,000 bucks on a class 100 clean room and it is useless if you bring in one cardboard box.  You have a nice pretty room there but with the wrong procedures it is all for not.
If the hot water tank is not used continually it has to be shut off and drained.  Hot stored water will grow bacteria that can kill you.  It is better to at least turn the heat off even if you don’t drain it.  NEVER mix or drink water from the hot water tap.

Quote
>Do you realize Honey is one of the best,if not the best inhibitor of bacterial infections? This is not the same as processing hanging livestock in a slaughterhouse.<

Yes I do.  And I am glad you brought that up.  Rather than signing petitions which will be as effective in Washington as throwing sand against the tide, standards should be created for honey based on scientific evidence as to what is REQUIRED to process honey safely.  People, (beeks and regulators) should be educated as to what procedures are safe.  Not just be friends with the inspectors because not everybody can be an inspector’s friend.  The scientific community can very easily prove that the equipment required to process honey is no where near as critical as the direction that government is going.  Regulation yes, inspection yes, but to what standards before some bureaucrat goes off the deep end and then there is no changing it?

You can think of me as a buffoon, argumentative, or whatever the hay you want.  It won’t make a difference to me.  Or you could listen in the unlikely case that I know something that you don’t.

IMO a metal building is more than adequate to process honey for a one-month operation per year.  You can even get them climate controlled almost anywhere in the country.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/motorcycle_thumbnail.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/motorcycle_thumbnail.jpg)



Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Bee Happy on March 03, 2011, 12:20:30 pm
If you apply an "engineers hammer" to a thumbtack - you have engaged in overkill. If you send a neurosurgeon to recreate molding designed by Frank Lloyd Wright - you have engaged in wasteful management of funds and a profound misapplication of experience. If you go to the expense of building a room fit to build pentium chips in order to extract and package the most bacteria resistant EDIBLE natural chemical compound known to man - you are your own worst problem.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 03, 2011, 12:52:31 pm
Quote
If you go to the expense of building a room fit to build pentium chips in order to extract and package the most bacteria resistant EDIBLE natural chemical compound known to man - you are your own worst problem.

Precisely my point, it is not the room that is as important as the procedure you use in the room.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Bee Happy on March 03, 2011, 01:28:12 pm
I concede abject failure - I brought logic to a mud slinging competition. you win.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Scadsobees on March 03, 2011, 02:15:20 pm
All those infections I've died from from drinking hot tap water have been doozies.

There's sensible, and silly overkill.

Here we have honey, which has been sucked from gritty flowers into an insect's stomach flown who knows how far, stuck in a dusty beehive, cured and often contaminated with some type of foreign material (usually wood fibers, but including wax moth poop), and then capped.  Dragged off a hive, possibly dumped on the ground, dumped on trucks, moved hither and yon....

...and you are worried about a miniscule ridiculously small amount of cardboard particles?

I'd be much more worried about a highway or large road within a few hundred feet of my hives.

 :roll:
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 03, 2011, 03:06:57 pm
Quote
...and you are worried about a miniscule ridiculously small amount of cardboard particles?
I think you are missing my whole point.
It is because of this :

Quote
Here we have honey, which has been sucked from gritty flowers into an insect's stomach flown who knows how far, stuck in a dusty beehive, cured and often contaminated with some type of foreign material (usually wood fibers, but including wax moth poop), and then capped. Dragged off a hive, possibly dumped on the ground, dumped on trucks, moved hither and yon....
That you don’t need this.

  First photo posted I can't retrieve it.

But it is only the scientific community that can do the research, testing, and documentation that will prove to GOVERNMENT  what we as layman believe to be true.  What I know through my experiences is it makes no sense at all to build a $10000+ clean room if you are going to contaminate it with cardboard, pampers, dog hair, chicken feathers or any other material you seem fit to bring into the room when you are not using it for its intended purposes.

Where is the important part in all this?  Should government insure that the place you pack the honey in containers is a class 100 clean room or should they be concerned with the toxic chemicals introduced into the hive or onto the plants which eventually makes its way into the honey?.  Should a supplier’s honey be tested for contamination level or ingredients that are not really honey?  I think so for the first few runs.

I am for regulating what matters.  Simple proven procedures like wearing hair nets, smocks and rubber gloves when you are packing honey.  Washing containers and knowing how to keep them clean before the lid is put on.  These are minimal costs that any back yard beek can adopt.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: oliver on March 03, 2011, 03:56:05 pm
You are preaching to the choir. These are gov regulations not my ideas.. Do know from past experiance with the epa and osha and their gestapo tactics, gov inspectors with a reg book and a clip board are a formidable force, and you are completely at their mercy..Anyone that worked construction in the 70s and delt with osha can probably testify to this.. Most of those rediculous regs are now either off the books or not enforced, as may well go this ruling on honey production, but while it is enforce, beware, they hit where it hurts right in your bank account.Got hit for my crew not wearing hardhats on a residential roof, space debris I guess, don't see any roofers wearing hard hats now, here anyway My Granddad kept bees,   for 50+ yrs , I remember cranking his galvanized extractor. and helping clean galvanized tanks..Surprised any of us or the hundreds of customers he had survived..have fun day..
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 03, 2011, 05:32:55 pm
Quote
Anyone that worked construction in the 70s and delt with osha can probably testify to this.

He, he, you are absolutely right.  It took me a week before I stopped crashing my head into everything because I wasn't used to wearing a WWI helmet.  It was a finish contractor installing base molding and hanging interior doors in an apartment complex.  The biggest construction hazard was getting plaster dust in your eyes.

Shouldn't the effort be made to get the regs written to meet the risk rather than have no regs at all?  And just because they are written wrong doesn't mean they can't change.  There are good policemen and there are bad policemen.  Should we go without any police force at all because some are bad?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: bullship on March 03, 2011, 06:58:51 pm
The children are running the assylum!! They come straight out of college with a brand new badge that weights at least a ton and no experience.Any common sense they may have had has been knocked out of them by our school system that discourages common sense starting in first grade.
Old boy told me when I entered college "If you are any good by the time you get out of here you won't be"
Bullship:
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: buzzbee on March 03, 2011, 07:09:29 pm
I would deem this a necessity if people were getting sick from honey. Lets not fix something that isn't broken. Throwing a government solution at a non problem such as processing honey in the family kitchen is not a real problem . Bees dying and not knowing why is.
The only real danger from honey is botulism in small children(infants) where the flora in their intestinal system has not developed to the point of overpowering the botulism spores.
 If you feel you can not process your honey adequately without contaminating it to the point it's unsafe,maybe you should refrain from doing so. If it makes you feel better,call an inspector to your honey house and ask him to please regulate you. You'll sleep better knowing your not going to kill someone with your honey. And you can advertise that you have the highest regulated honey anywhere.
I know my people prefer to have the stuff that has been spun from the comb and put into the jars with bee parts and wax. It is hard to get them  to take it if filtered too much.
 The biggest risk is the imported  honey with stuff "added" to stretch it out,like corn syrup,sucrose or what have you. I don't think the biggest threat is our backyard keepers spinning honey a couple times a year in their honey sheds.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on March 04, 2011, 08:11:21 am
I would like to know is that really a air-conditioner
or do you use it for dehumidifier--RDY-B

Well lets see. It does have a filter. So that I guess makes it an air conditioner.

And it does take out the humidity....so I guess it's a dehumidifier also.

And it also lower the temperature of the room...so I guess it's a air conditioner, dehumidifier, and temp control device all rolled into one.

 :-D
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on March 04, 2011, 08:14:29 am
I've got something to pick on Mike. I personally think the decor is a little drab. Maybe a splash of color here and there would help to keep the working class in a better mind set? Maybe pipe in some soothing music...Yanni perhaps?

Great honey room, I'm jealous.

Scott

What do you have in mind?

A full spectrum rainbow of colors.  :-D I seen some bumper stickers that seemed to be making "rainbows" the "In" thing again.

Lets not go down that road again.

Can you imagine the comments from some....rainbows and Yanni..... :lau: 
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 04, 2011, 09:39:11 am
Quote
Well lets see. It does have a filter. So that I guess makes it an air conditioner.


Just so you know, what filtering it does is to the air being pulled out of the room and it is not very effective at that.  In most cases wall airconditions have vents which let out air instead of bringing in air and filtering it before pushing it into the room.  Most people would ask what is the difference?  Big difference, in order to control the air quality of a room you have to create a positive pressure inside the room so air leaks out the windows and door or any other cracks to the out side.  The air pushed into the room is filtered.  If the room is negative pressure it will draw in anything from the outside.

So what you say?  Well case in point, if you had a garage and did nothing but buy a shop vac and mounted the hose through the wall (making a tight fit) it would create a positive pressure in the garage space.  Of course you would want to seal up as many cracks that you could find in the windows and doors and walls that you could find first.  This would produce a cleaner environment to produce honey then Bjorn's pretty room for around $100.

Chances are his inspector friend has no idea because he was probably a beekeeper and doesn't know squat about controlling microbes.  But now he has the power that makes him think he knows it all.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: kingbee on March 04, 2011, 03:46:31 pm
...
In most cases wall airconditions have vents which let out air instead of bringing in air

Most of the room air conditioners I am aware of re-circulate or reuse the air inside a room by first cooling thus de-humidifying the air THEN discharging the conditioned air back into the room.  I think there is now a Federal law stating that air conditioners must operate in this fashion in order to reduce polar bear drowning caused by global warmi... climate chan...I mean global climate disruption. 

I can take care of myself when it comes to the big boys of commerce thank you.  If you, I, or everyone else does not like corporate Americas’ products, we should simply leave those products on the shelves and big businesses will soon be bankrupted by their massive overhead.  The reason people come back, back, back for more, more, more, is because of corporate foods’ reputation of quality (or at least sameness) with every single purchase you make, and not the quality of your uncles’ third and sixteenth purchase last year, in Atlanta.

Attila the Hun was supposedly buried immersed in honey to preserve his body.  This should give everyone reading this except the little old ladies in tennis shoes the idea that honey will not support bacterial growth, but I wish you luck in convincing the little old ladies wearing Kids about anything, like the Earth is round and not flat!

On an illness per illness basis, church social and local farm type operations are more likely to spread food born illnesses than say a McDonalds or a Jack-in-the- Box, even though church socials and organic farms provide the fewest meals per 100,000 populations.  Church socials and organic farm type operations are under staffed, under trained and usually have the least to loose but the most to gain by cutting corners.  I know this does not fit the Luddite frame of mind or the Marxist talking points espoused by many, but let the chips fall where they belong.

In case you want to know, this is where the home honey business is headed.  Read this link to find out how or when beef is no longer beef.  Now go back and read it one more time and substitute the word honey , every time the noun beef appears in the following link.  http://www.bizjournals.com/birmingham/news/2011/01/21/taco-bell-sued-by-beasley-allen.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/birmingham/news/2011/01/21/taco-bell-sued-by-beasley-allen.html)

We have opened ourselves up to this kind of legal abuse by making unsubstantiated claims about the health benefits of un-heated, un-filtered, local, and raw honey.  At what point will your or my “wildflower” honey fail the coming “wildflower” test and become nothing more than, rural monoculture row crop syrup or suburban landscape nectar?  There is a point of diminishing returns in everything.  If a hobbyist beek netting $500 has to invest $10,000 to stay in business then that beek will likely need to cash out his 401k and sell $25,000 in additional honey every year just to return to the $500 net profit point.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: The Bix on March 04, 2011, 05:13:18 pm
Can you say "barter system"?  That's where we're headed.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on March 04, 2011, 05:16:17 pm
Can you say "barter system"?  That's where we're headed.

 ;)
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 04, 2011, 05:17:30 pm
Quote
Most of the room air conditioners I am aware of re-circulate or reuse the air inside a room by first cooling thus de-humidifying the air THEN discharging the conditioned air back into the room.


Most building codes would require a 15% minimum air exchange in a closed room.  You can accomplish that by pushing air into the room or sucking air out of the room.  If you are trying to control the air quality in a room you have to filter it and push the air into the room.  When you suck it out of the room you have no way of filtering it.  Room air conditions usually have a vent which most people will run closed because they are worried about their electric bill.  If all you do is recirculate the air in a room you will create a very unhealthy work environment.  That will not pass any building code.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: rdy-b on March 04, 2011, 07:46:42 pm
I would like to know is that really a air-conditioner
or do you use it for dehumidifier--RDY-B

Well lets see. It does have a filter. So that I guess makes it an air conditioner.

And it does take out the humidity....so I guess it's a dehumidifier also.

And it also lower the temperature of the room...so I guess it's a air conditioner, dehumidifier, and temp control device all rolled into one.

 :-D
ok COOL-- :lol:  RDY-B
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: BjornBee on March 04, 2011, 08:05:54 pm
I would like to know is that really a air-conditioner
or do you use it for dehumidifier--RDY-B

Well lets see. It does have a filter. So that I guess makes it an air conditioner.

And it does take out the humidity....so I guess it's a dehumidifier also.

And it also lower the temperature of the room...so I guess it's a air conditioner, dehumidifier, and temp control device all rolled into one.

 :-D
ok COOL-- :lol:  RDY-B
...that would be the temp control device.... :-D
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: backyard warrior on March 06, 2011, 09:10:48 am
Cant really say im impressed with this thread i really dont care about the regs acebird it seems people been eating the honey for many many  years and they didnt get sick or die so what does it matter as long as you are clean as possible get back to keeping bees  :-\
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 06, 2011, 11:26:57 am
Quote
Cant really say im impressed with this thread i really dont care about the regs acebird


Hmmm I am a little confused here.   :?
If you go back to the first post of this thread it is about government regulation.  Should we be discussing nectar flow or queen rearing?
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Two Bees on March 06, 2011, 02:16:08 pm
Last year, North Carolina adopted a honey standard for all honey sold within the state.  The standard was adopted at the recommendation of the NC State Beekeepers Association (www.ncbeekeepers.org (http://www.ncbeekeepers.org)) in an effort to define what honey is.

We have had a problem with (1) corn syrup being mixed with wildflower honey and sold as pure honey and (2) many honey sellers all over the state labeling their honey as "sourwood honey".  Sourwood honey is considered a premium honey from the sourwood tree.  This tree largely grows in the western part of the state.  Wildflower sells for about $7 per pound whereas sourwood honey sells for about $10 per pound.
Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Acebird on March 06, 2011, 02:39:54 pm
Quote
Wildflower sells for about $7 per pound whereas sourwood honey sells for about $10 per pound.

Marketing is something I have never been able to get my head wrapped around.  Wildflower is 10 bucks up here.

http://www.tenonanatche.com/raw-adirondack-wildflower-honey.htm (http://www.tenonanatche.com/raw-adirondack-wildflower-honey.htm)


Title: Re: And then there's THIS...!
Post by: Bee Happy on March 06, 2011, 03:33:37 pm
"Free honey with purchase of $12 jar."