Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Matz on October 06, 2005, 04:06:08 am
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Got a question about insulating hives for winter. I know down south alot of people only have to use tar paper on the outside of the hives, as your winters are much milder than the ones we experience up here in Canada. Our average has got to be -20 celcius to -30 celcius for about 4 months (not sure what that is in Farenhiet) and I'm wondering if anyone with experience with these temps can suggest how thick of insulation to use on exterior of box. I've designed a lid with insulation built into it that will stay on all year round, 2-3/4 inch wood covers (20x16) with R7.5 insulation in between enclosed around the edges (none of the insulation is visable) a feeder hole in the center and a 3/8 " deep, 3"wide, 5" long, vent for moisture and cleansing flights. Just wondering what R value I should use on the entire exterior of the Hive? I was going to use R28 on all sides and a R28 pillow on the top (all together R35.5 for top insulation) with black vapour barrier instead of tar paper. Would this be excessive and have any negative effects if it is over insulted? Thanks for any information.
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Our average has got to be -20 celcius to -30 celcius for about 4 months
Surely you should be better ask for local beekeeper.
Average temperature -20 celcius to -30 celcius for about 4 months ?
Are you sure! We have not that kind of values even In Lapland.
But it seems to be http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/global_monitoring/temperature/tn71078_1yr.gif
I've designed a lid with insulation built into it that will stay on all year round, 2-3/4 inch wood covers
That kind of wooden cover is really heavy to handle.
We have now stryrofoam hives which have relly good insulation values.
More than for winter insulation hive needs during spring upp to summer when they start brood raising.
In Northern Finland where they have -20 celcius to -30 celcius wintering in some kind of shelter is usual. One man puts his hives iside a hut which have made from insutating boad and he put "frost guard" heater inside. It connet electrict heating on when temperature goes under +5C.
Wintering under snow is usual.
And that feeding hole? You just need finger tip size hole in the upper part of hive that moisture comes out from hive.
You should accustome with some local beekeepers and learn from them how to handle hives in your area. By that you have a good reason to get new friends.
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Matz -
Finsky is right - check with a local beekeeper (if you can find one). This sounds like a lot of insulation for a hive.
I keep bees at 43 degrees N latitude and I do not add any insulation to the hives. I just make sure that there is plenty of ventilation through the hive and they are protected from the wind.
With all of the insulation, you are going to want to make it easy to remove it, just in case you get a warm spell in the middle of winter. And you will still need good ventilation, what you described sounds like it will not provide the ventilation.
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Where are you in Canada...the artic circle? If you're right that winters get into about 20-30 below in celcius then thats 68-86 bellow in farenheight. One thing that makes me wonder is if it stays that cold for four months then how are the bees going to break cluster to cover more honey. If there's a cold snap like that that lasts for a few weeks you may have to previde some warmpth for the hive.
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My calculations come to -30c = -22f.
-40c = -40f
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-20C = -4F
-30C = -22F
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Are you sure...I thought that for conversion of celcius to farenheight you multiply by nine, devide by eight and then add 32?
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Formula for Celcius / Fahrenheit temperature conversions:
(5/9)*(TempF-32) = TempC
(9/5)*TempC+32 = TempF
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WWW is our friend : Fahrenheit to Celsius Converter
http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm
-40 C = -40 F , it really is! and soon after that mercurium will be hard metal. :P
The coldest points in Finland during 25 years has been -42C and the hottest +33C.
The coldest place in Canada or in North America is here ?
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF16/1630.html
On that day, Blezard and his coworkers for the Weather Service of Canada filed a notch into the glass casing of an alcohol thermometer because the indicator within fell below the lowest number, 80 below zero. When they later sent the thermometer to Toronto, officials there determined the temperature at Snag had dropped to minus 81.4 degrees F, the lowest official temperature ever recorded in North America.
- 81 F = - 63 C :shock:
.
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Our record high temperature here is:
47.2C = 117F
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(5/9)*(TempF-32) = TempC
(9/5)*(TempC+32) = TempF
Well, I might as well wade into this too...
The first equation is ok, but the algebra is not quite right on the second equation as derived from the first equation.
To preserve equality, 32 needs to be added to both sides of the equal sign OUTSIDE of the brackets. This would then be:
(9/5) * (5/9) * (Temp F - 32) = (9/5) * Temp C
Temp F - 32 = (9/5) * Temp C
Temp F - 32 + 32 = (9/5) * Temp C + 32
Temp F = (9/5) * Temp C + 32
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Oops, messed it up when I copied it. Its fixed now.
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Atleast we are all catching up on our conversion charts. I was unsure what those temps were in farenheit as well. I'm from Manitoba in central Canada, I may have been exagerating on the average temps, but info from our National weather service says that the normal daily temps for parts of Dec all of Jan and parts of Feb are -17F = -27C add windchill to this and its the coming of the next ice age. The lids that I have made are really not all that heavy, maybe 10 lbs at most and do have adequate ventilation (3/8 deep x 3 inch wide x 5 inch long moisture vent/cleansing flight opening) along with the bottom entrance open. Basically just a built in inner cover with insulation. I have spoken to a friend of mine who has about 3000 hives and he has told me that R28 pillow+R7.5 insulation for the top. I'm pretty sure that he told me R28 for sides but can't remember and I won't be speaking with him for couple weeks now. So to be safe, I made side insulation wraps with R28, which I know will be aqequate, I'm just wondering if too much insulation can effect the hives negitively.
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I hav ehad 3 cm / 1,2 inch wooden wall fefore and then I get styrofoam hives.
Good insulation saves 50% food during winter. Our bees eat sugar from September to end of May.
Insulation cannot be too much because bees ventilate extra heat away. The opening may be too small.
But some year I have put colony too tight to the hive/ too small space and bees have runned too during winter. So they have died when food finished.
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For all of you calculating between fahrenheit and celsius: Visit google and perform a "search" like this:
-20f in c
or
-20c in f
It works for most unit conversions and handles both full name (e.g. fahrenhei) and it abbrevation (f). Used it a lot for conversion between cm and in aswell. No more "how was that formula again?" :-)
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Got a question about insulating hives for winter. I know down south alot of people only have to use tar paper on the outside of the hives, as your winters are much milder than the ones we experience up here in Canada. Our average has got to be -20 celcius to -30 celcius for about 4 months (not sure what that is in Farenhiet) and I'm wondering if anyone with experience with these temps can suggest how thick of insulation to use on exterior of box. I've designed a lid with insulation built into it that will stay on all year round, 2-3/4 inch wood covers (20x16) with R7.5 insulation in between enclosed around the edges (none of the insulation is visable) a feeder hole in the center and a 3/8 " deep, 3"wide, 5" long, vent for moisture and cleansing flights. Just wondering what R value I should use on the entire exterior of the Hive? I was going to use R28 on all sides and a R28 pillow on the top (all together R35.5 for top insulation) with black vapour barrier instead of tar paper. Would this be excessive and have any negative effects if it is over insulted? Thanks for any information.
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matz I would be more concerned about ample winter food and the number of bees in the hive than I would the amount of insulation, as the bees do not heat the hive, only the cluster. Try to keep the cold wind off of them, have winter escape and a neans of ventilation imabkpr
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Matz -
Finsky is right - check with a local beekeeper (if you can find one). This sounds like a lot of insulation for a hive.
I keep bees at 43 degrees N latitude and I do not add any insulation to the hives. I just make sure that there is plenty of ventilation through the hive and they are protected from the wind.
With all of the insulation, you are going to want to make it easy to remove it, just in case you get a warm spell in the middle of winter. And you will still need good ventilation, what you described sounds like it will not provide the ventilation.
What do you use to ventilate the hive? because i still didnt buy or did anything to it for the winter ventilation.. can someone suggest something.
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What you do (or should do) is strictly regional. What I do to prepare my bees for winter here in Tucson, Arizona --- "Nothing".
Back when I kept bees in more temperate climates, Ohio, Virginia -- I made sure they had plenty of honey to eat through the winter.
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What do you use to ventilate the hive? .
Bees have just their wings. When it is moist wearther during winter days bees ventilate air away from hive with their wings.
But basic is that you have grid bottom or bottom board plate and lower and upper entrance open.
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There are a few things I do to prepare the colonys for winter. I reduce the entrances and have a vent cut into my inner covers. I try to equalize stores among the colonys and feed if necessary to top them off. I staple a wrap of roofing felt around the hives to help with solar gain. I usually make up some fondant just in case winter hangs on a little longer than usual. I like to give them a rap during the winter and listen for a growl to indicate all is well. Then lift an end and guestimate how their stores are holding out.
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There is a lot here already covered, so I'll try not to repeat anything already said....
I find the two most important issues are WIND and HUMIDITY. Tackle these and you should have no problem.
1) No matter what insulating materia you usel, you need a way to let moisture escape from the hive and 2) remember that the outside temperature and inside temps are very similar "MINUS" windchill.
If you can get the hives OUT OF THE WIND and in a location where any trapped moisture has a chance of disapating, then you have GREATLY increased your chances of creating an enviroment which your bees can survive in even the coldest climates.
Good luck :)
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I find the two most important issues are WIND and HUMIDITY. Tackle these and you should have no problem.
YES that is the most important and difficult. With my 43 years experience those 2 cause still troubles for me. One point is hive's sensitiveness for nosema.
I tryed with wire mesh bottom but on my windy place it caused 50% increase in food consumtion. One died and 2 was nearby , and 6 was in my experience. What a loss!
When we have snow plenty and hives are covered with snow nosema kills a lot of bees from hive. When snow is 30 cm and entrence is free to open air there is very few bees died on the bottom.
But I do not try to be 100% good beekeeper. I keep 20% extra hives and I sleep calmly all our long winter. Most troubles become when queens have got nosema, not one but 2-3 of my 15 hives.
Also I will get trouples if all my hives are healty at spring. So I have too much hives and lack of boxes and too much honey to sell.
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Thanks too everyone for all the advice. I guess my ladies should be alright since over insulated is better than under insulated. They have plenty off food, fed them 5 gallons of sugar water along with the recommended dose of Oxysol, doses of AFB med and varroa strips (removed after treatment). Couldn't even lift the hive. Reduced bottom entrance and 3x5 top entrance. Started with 4 hives this year to get the hang of it, 2 got hit by bear 1 got robbed and want to make sure my strongest hive pulls through cold winter. Next year will be so much easier when I go bigger, either 20 or 40, only they will all be behind electric fence guarded by my Bison. Since I will be able to wrap hives in groups of 4 I can just purchase the adequate wraps and pillows from local co-op. Now I just gotta hit my carpentry shop and wack of a bunch of complete hives and nuc hives. Once again, thanks for all the info, the people, info and help from this forum is incredible.
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What I have done that helps eliminate humidity is let my "Miller" type feeders on. I wrap them up with tarpaper, I leave the SBB open, and reduce entrance. I said this before, the bees dont heat the hive, rather the inside of the cluster. As long as you do not have major updrafts, and you left enough stores, and did something with the mites, you should be ok. Bees have been around for a million years, and they know what to do.
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Matz- I have a relative up in The Pas who has a big operation so if your still wondering I can give you his name so you can contact him.
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Thanks Beecanuck, I appreciate it, but I've recently been talking to some locals around my area and my friend in Neepawa. I think I should be ok for now. Thanks again...