Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BjornBee on June 28, 2010, 08:43:48 am
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I will pay $500 dollars for a smallcell fully functioning hive, plus cost of transport, and whatever else it takes to get it to my place, within reason.
I do not want a smallcell queen, or a smallcell nuc. I want a fully stocked, functioning, and claimed "mite resistant" colony. Reason for this is that with a queen or nuc, someone can always claim that the buyer did not do something correct to continue the colony. It would be suggested that the new beekeeper was still in transition, drawing comb, etc. So lets get right on past all that. Lets start with a fully functioning hive. We have had people now supposedly claiming to have these hives for years now. So lets start with a fully drawn smallcell hive with no humps to get over.
I will work with the seller of this colony as to the location. Want isolation so no drift of mites can be claimed. I'll provide it.
I will follow any protocol that the seller deems necessary to maintain this colony as the claimed mite resistant colony that it is.
I also am willing to place the hive at an agreed upon location such as a university, so neutrality can be established. I want no possible claims that I infected or unknowingly did something to cause the hive to not perform in any way.
I don't want to hear about inspection records with no mites found. I have the last four years worth of reports of my own yards and the highest count is 2, which happened to be on the 15th of September....not bad. And I open my yards to hundreds of beekeepers every year and mites are not found in many of the hives. So lets keep all the unverified mite counts to ourselves.
But lets finally after more than 10 years, have ONE smallcell beekeeper with claims of NO mite problems, step forward and actually sell a claimed and verified hive. No queen or nuc that can be easily dismissed. But a fully functioning hive.
Anyone up to the challenge? If there are problems, it will be noted. If they are mite resistant, then you will get all the credit and marketing worthy of your accomplishment.
So spread the word. I know a bunch will be meeting for the "treatment free conference" in July. Maybe someone can pass the message.
Don't look as this as negative. Look at this as a positive situation, with ramifications of being the one to get the credit in taking part. I am not ware of this happening in the past. And you may just get me to shut up. That is worth you paying me $500 dollars. :-D So the value of this offer is better than $1000 dollars to the special person stepping forward. Imagine being able to claim your bees made the grade, while shoving it down my throat. That is truly PRICELESS! ;)
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are buckfast small cell?
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well, here's the problem with your proposal.
you seem to be willing to pay what you think is "fair market price" or above for a hive in leiu of building one up on your own.
our "fully functioning sc hives" are 4-6 deeps tall and full of honey. conservatively, let's say there is 100lbs of honey in these hives (the one i'm looking at out my back window is 6 deep, and even using the leverage of pushing on the top of the stack, i can barely tip it an inch).
we have a ready market for local treatment free honey @ $20/lb (when I say a ready market, we are out 5 days a week at markets where we make our living selling honey at this price...not a fluke or a single customer that pays these prices).
so, if i wanted to get rid of one of our hives, i could split it into mating nucs, harvest 100lbs of honey (very conservatively), and get $2000 for the honey alone, and sell the nucs for whatever the market will bear (or, use them to build up more production colonies myself).
in addition, there is nothing that we (or that anyone else in the "small cell community") are doing that is secret. there is a $10 book available, there is an active list of over 3000 members, and there are at least 2 VERY AFFORDABLE conferences a year. if you want to purchase a hive instead of utilizing these free/inexpensive resources to bulild up your own (which you won't, because you don't think it's worthwhile), you are not offering near enough cash.
deknow
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deknow,
I think you miss my point, or points.
I do not need stock of smallcell. I have my own. I have done smallcell I think now for 7 years. You are assuming that I need smallcell bees. You are wrong. There are other reasons for my offer, that I will state later.
I am trying to make several points.
One....No matter the hive, no matter the bee, someone markets and sell as demand dictates. You can buy full hives of Russians, Italians, non-treated hives, warre hives, top bar hives...everything imaginable. You don't need to tell me about "chemical free honey"...I sell it. We are talking about selling bees from regressed and claimed resistant hives. Is nobody willing to sell a supposedly claimed fully functioning smallcell hive while claiming mite resistance? But yet the repeated message over and over, is that bees magically have no mite problems once they are regressed down to 4.9 or lower. It was just repeated again on this forum in the past 24 hours.
I don't care about 3000 members or two conferences, or anything else. I want someone to put their product where their mouth is, and back up the claims that keep getting repeated.
You would think that if anyone had the guts, someone would be selling mite resistant fully functioning hives. We as an industry sell everything else. So slicing, dicing, and over rationalizing it, really accomplishes nothing. And if your answer is the "reasoning" that nobody is willing to sell a fully functioning hive, then give me a price of one of your smallcell (two box...I do not care about honey boxes) hives, and if I do not get a better offer, then I'll consider your price.
Come on, we can do better than that. Someone step forward and sell a fully functioning smallcell hive without the excuses, rationale, or changing subject matter. That is not asking too much I hope.
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are buckfast small cell?
I have only ever kept 4 hives of Buckfast. They were not on smallcell. They were mean.
I do know that the Russians and carni, are smaller that the average Italian, and are better to regress in my opinion. I like the smaller darker bee lines. They handle mites better, whether on smallcell or not. They have better resistance, and should be the starting point to where the bar is set for anyone starting out, regardless of how you keep bees.
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deknow,
I think you miss my point, or points.
i don't think i missed your point at all.
I do not need stock of smallcell. I have my own. I have done smallcell I think now for 7 years. You are assuming that I need smallcell bees. You are wrong. There are other reasons for my offer, that I will state later.
i know you have bees. i know you have at least had sc bees (i don't know what you currently have...but i don't doubt that you have sc bees).
One....No matter the hive, no matter the bee, someone markets and sell as demand dictates. You can buy full hives of Russians, Italians, non-treated hives, warre hives, top bar hives...everything imaginable.
yes, there are a lot of products on the market....but you don't seem to be able to find what you are looking for for sale?
You don't need to tell me about "chemical free honey"...I sell it.
please don't misquote me...i said "treatment free" not "chemical free". when i use the term "treatment free", i referring to bees that are not treated by any "chemical" or "soft treatments", are not fed sugar (take note of this...it's relevant to what follows). lots of folks that use thymol, fumidil, organic acids, sugar dusting, etc claim "chemical free"...the two concepts are not the same.
We are talking about selling bees from regressed and claimed resistant hives. Is nobody willing to sell a supposedly claimed fully functioning smallcell hive while claiming mite resistance? But yet the repeated message over and over, is that bees magically have no mite problems once they are regressed down to 4.9 or lower. It was just repeated again on this forum in the past 24 hours.
let's be clear here....feel free to quote me and hold my feet to the fire for anything that i say (and i've said quite a bit between the various forums, the book, and my talks at conferences....many of which are available online for free). ...but am i responsible for what other people say? are you responsible for what other people say?
i don't have mite problems. part of that result is (I believe) from small cell...part of it is management practices (see below), and part is letting the bees with mite problems die. there may well be other factors as well.
I don't care about 3000 members or two conferences, or anything else. I want someone to put their product where their mouth is, and back up the claims that keep getting repeated.
i put my hives as i manage them (and my significant outlay of capital to get to this point) "where my mouth is". i don't think anyone has to read too closely between the lines to see that you are not looking at this impartially, and that you are looking to "prove" failure.....this isn't very hard to do, anyone can kill hive without violating any "defined protocall" if they try...the more money you pay for a "fully functioning sc hive", the more you have invested to "prove it doesn't work". i'm not interested in such games.
if there is someone that you think is succeding, visit their apiary in question. observe (and ask questions) about what they are doing. try your best to replicate everything that you think might be relevenant (and even those factors that you dismiss as irrelevant). to assume that sc is the only factor involved here is an unfounded assumption. we noticed that we all of a sudden were able to overwinter bees without treatments once we regressed the bees...but this was only one thing we had to change from the "standard management practices" to have strong treatment free hive.
You would think that if anyone had the guts, someone would be selling mite resistant fully functioning hives. We as an industry sell everything else. So slicing, dicing, and over rationalizing it, really accomplishes nothing. And if your answer is the "reasoning" that nobody is willing to sell a fully functioning hive, then give me a price of one of your smallcell (two box...I do not care about honey boxes) hives, and if I do not get a better offer, then I'll consider your price.
the way we manage our hives, there are no "honey boxes". the broodnest runs through the center of 5-6 boxes (deeps). saying that you can separate "the hive" from "the honey" is (at least in our management) a fallacy....kind of like separating a corporation from it's capital. i don't consider 2 boxes full of bees "a fully functioning hive" anymore than an automobile plant without working capital and an infrastructure is a car company. taking a "fully functioning hive" of 6 boxes and tearing it down to 2 is a bit like dissecting the goose that layed the golden egg.
Come on, we can do better than that. Someone step forward and sell a fully functioning smallcell hive without the excuses, rationale, or changing subject matter. That is not asking too much I hope.
i offer no excuses....just my experience.
deknow
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Quick, someone call Dee Lusby :-D
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Quick, someone call Dee Lusby :-D
Why? She won't answer any questions anyways.
Maybe 7-8 years ago, after reading an article by her claiming that the three reasons she had success, I asked her about it. She claimed her success was for 1) Small cell uncontaminated comb made by her wax. 2) The high plateau and unique environmental conditions in her neck of the woods. 3) Her distinct genetic makeup of the feral stock in her area.
All three could have merit.
So, after hearing others tout her success as a person of record and to hold as a model, and stating that if they too went smallcell they would see similar results, I wanted to ask her about it.
My question was simply. What was her opinion of other beekeepers across the country being told to use smallcell and sold the bill of goods of success modeled after her, when two of the three reason given by her for her success could not be achieved by others?
I got NO response.
I also thought that earlier maps (maybe put out by Lusby) had promoted the idea that natural cell size was a result of altitude and other environmental conditions, making forcing bees onto smallcell foundation about as unnatural as anything else.
But lets not go there. :roll:
We have been told 3000 people have, and by suggestion, tout smallcell mite resistant bees. Ironic that not ONE ever has a hive to sell, or is willing to have it scrutinized.
So we are stuck with those selling smallcell nucs or queens, then after the fact, suggesting a million reasons why the bees died. I'm just trying to cut out the middle crap. And lets just get on with the purchasing of an entire claimed smallcell mite resistant colony.
For the record, I made my own observation about smallcell years ago (maybe 5), long before 4 independent studies all came to the same conclusion I did. That it did not work or fullfill the claims that others keep making. Of course most of that is on another forum to which I can not access.
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mike, how many hives would you have for sale if you were getting $20/lb for all of the honey you could produce? ....(especially to someone that is out to prove that the hive will die...but that's besides the point).
deknow
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mike, how many hives would you have for sale if you were getting $20/lb for all of the honey you could produce? ....(especially to someone that is out to prove that the hive will die...but that's besides the point).
deknow
Back to this......If the buyer only wanted one. I could go with that. If I had 2999 other bee friends, I would think that at least one also could do it. Maybe even two or three. Seeing as all my hives, as well as many others I know are all chemical free, I do not see what the big point is. Chemical free honey is everywhere. If you get 20 dollars a pound, good for you. But I find that a weak case for the failure of being able to buy one hive, somewhere from someone.
But lets not ask silly questions.
Fact....10 years, not ONE producer of smallcell hives. And I guess I am to assume that it's because you are getting 20 dollars a pound for honey.
3000 users of smallcell all claiming mite resistant bees, and not one hive available for purchase. Talk about red flags.
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C'mon you Honey Barons! He offered to run the hive with your protocol. Step up to the plate. :pop:
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mike, you have misstated so many things i don't know where to begin:
1. no one claimed "3000" other than me...and it specifically referred to the number of people on the organic list. i referred to this as one of the many completely open resources that those of us who have had success rely upon and contribute to. to somehow infer that there are 3000 memebers of the organic list that should have hives for sale is your own fabrication.
2. you continually refer to your "chemical free" hives/honey, and you have more than once implied that this is equivalant to "treatment free" as I've used it and defined it carefully here in this thread. do you not feed sugar? will you clarify what you mean? what goes in the hive besides bees, wood, and foundation?
3. not all "treatment free" honey is from small cell bees.
4. unless you think everyone who claims success with sc is lying (and they either are secretly using large cell comb or treatments), then your proposed test isn't testing whether sc works or not...it tests whether someone with a chip on their shoulder about small cell can kill the colony without breaking defined protocalls.
5. michael bush has claimed success with all manner of commercial stock on small cell. dennis beewrangler has found his small cell colonies to suffer from varroa when put on large cell comb. we couldn't keep colonies over the winter until we regressed.
your general tone in your inquiry and conversation here shows that you are convinced that say, one of my hives will perrish without treatments with you caring for it...this is in no way a judgement of your character in general, but an analysis of what you have written here in this thread.
if i've been "sold a bill of goods" by dee, i haven't noticed. finally we have hives that look a lot like hers in the desert (and no, we don't have any of her genetics)....and in hives that are in massachusetts and maine.
how much you want to bet i can kill one of your coloines following any protocall you define?
deknow (who knows how hard it is to write step by step instructions on how to keep bees)
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the problem i have with small cell is that with many who use it, it is a religion along the lines of natural childbirth :evil:
everyone i know who does small cell also does other things that are probably more responsible for their success. in particular, being careful to keep the mite resistant genetics in their yard and let those which are not, die.
i do not know, but would venture to guess, that those of us who have been very careful of our genetics, but have not done small cell, are probably just as successful at going treatment free. that's why i caution people to do their homework. if they choose small cell and think it's going to solve their mite problem, they are going to be disappointed. if they learn all there is to know about keeping treatment free bees and then add small cell as part of the program, that's cool.
in no way do i claim to be an expert on either treatment free or small cell, but i can read. the studies do not back small cell as a solution to varroa mites. it is wise, then, to see what people are doing other than small cell that makes them successful.
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On the lines of organic. Am I to understand people being treatment free are claiming organic? Quite a different standard.But i do think Bjorn has a point,that if the small cell is so much better,why isn't someone marketing small cell colonies. they should easily bring more money than bees on large cell foundation. If some one has that much faith in their product,production should be through the roof on the way to market.
have any of the universities been able to consistently duplicate these results that are claimed?Seems that in the quest to overcome varroa that the testing should have been done.
I do hope this does work for people trying it. But generally the market works in favor of results.
just my opinion,much as what everyone elses statements here are.
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how much you want to bet i can kill one of your colonies following any protocall you define?
You probably could. But I'm not part of the crowd selling the bill of goods that if you simply regress your bees to 4.9 all your mite problems will go away..... :-D You are! ;)
My point is not to kill any hive. It is the point as buzzbee made, that not one person with smallcell is willing to market, sell, or put their hives under the microscope. That is the point. Everything is side stepping.
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You probably could. But I'm not part of the crowd selling the bill of goods that if you simply regress your bees to 4.9 all your mite problems will go away..... :-D You are! ;)
this is not the first time, nor is this the first forum where you have attributed such a claim to me. you've never once quoted me (and i've posted quite a bit on the subject...i even wrote a book on the subject)....so if you think i've ever said that no matter what your other management practices are, no matter what genetics you have, no matter where you are located, that regressing your bees to 4.9 will make your mite problems go away.
if you are going to accuse me of saying something (or anyone else for that matter), please quote me (or them).
if your account of what you asked dee is accurate, i'm not surprised you didn't get a response...accusing someone of "selling a bill of goods" is calling them a liar...i'm not surprised if she didn't answer to such accustaions.
My point is not to kill any hive. It is the point as buzzbee made, that not one person with smallcell is willing to market, sell, or put their hives under the microscope. That is the point. Everything is side stepping.
...and my point is that no one in the small cell community has any secrets...no one is hiding anything. our hives are inspected every year (last year no mites found...the year before the inspector said he saw one mite after going through 20 hives...he didn't show it to us even though we were right there). we show our operation to many beekepers every year, dee shows her hives to many people every year. michael bush has several years of inpspection reports posted on his site.
i've personally talked to several prominent researchers, and none of them are interested in looking at treatment free operations, no matter what the cell size.
if it's "side stepping" to not sell you a hive at any price for the purpose of "getting it under the microscope", then yes, i'm side stepping. you've demonstrated here that you would want such an experement to fail...a handycap that i doubt you would apply to your own hives, or any others you would be comparing it to.
i can't speak for "10 years"....i've been keeping bees for 10 years, but only applied sc to my practices since 2008. i won't apologize for not having full size hives to sell you or anyone else.
it's easy to market nucs, hives and queens. just buy fancy ii breeder queens, feed a bunch of packages and poof! you are a bee breeder. i'm not interested in such "shortcuts", and neither are most of those that i know who are on sc and are dedicated to not using treatments...it's a longer term project than that (at least for me).....and i certainly won't rush things because you are mad.
deknow
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i've personally talked to several prominent researchers, and none of them are interested in looking at treatment free operations, no matter what the cell size.
Do you not wonder why that is? I would find it disturbing a prominent researcher would not want to study "treatment free".
Maybe they have told you why their lack of interest?
Obviously no one has to accept the challenge. I just wish someone would take Bjorn up on his offer.
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google small cell honeybee study
here's one.
http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/documents/m08138.pdf (http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/documents/m08138.pdf)
there are others, but i have not gone through them so can not tell you what they all say.
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In science, the only way to verify an effect is to change one variable at a time, keeping the others relatively constant. It appears in the case of sc there are so many confounding factors that making claims either way is impossible. If bjorn wants to use a sc hive and keep all the other variables constant, he will likely fail, as in the university studies. Even if sc works, with the short generation time of mites, it will only be a short time until they evolve to take advantage of reproducing in sc's. Nature will find a way.
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I have sc bees to try and propagate the species, so I can be successful in my hobby, I am not out to prove anything to anyone nor to convince anyone of anything. I don't care how you raise your bees and I don't care how you feel about the way I raise mine....This thread is just another in a long series that may as well be about religion or politics...neither side will ever change the mind of the other. My soft inner voice is telling me to delete this post....that I am going to pay for hitting the submit button...but I can't help it!! :-D
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Can't take you up on your offer however, I thought this was an interesting video.
HAS 2007 Jennifer Berry - Small Cell / Regular Cell Comparison - 54 min - 10 sec long
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3081789258595842918&hl=en# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3081789258595842918&hl=en#)
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NS...stuff your small inner voice. if we all listened to it, we wouldn't have any fun :-D
in the main, i agree with you. we all should do what we find works for us. we all also have some responsibility to the new to help them gather as much info as they can.
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That I agree with 100%
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deknow,
That is correct, I am not quoting you.
My comments are from the overall message, often repeated, and just repeated on another thread 24 hours ago, with the simple message.....Regress to 4.9 and your mite problems will go away.
It is your comments in clear defense of these remarks, that make my comments directed at you. You need not say one thing or another or get defensive. It is your message, and comments being defensive, and spattering the conversation with 3000 of this, or two conferences of that, dropping names such as Lusby, and now mentioning your writing of a book....all adds up to you perhaps not being exactly quoted as saying this or that, but the message is loud and clear.
Someone said "regress and your mite problem go away". I questioned and targeted that. You defended it in every way. But now step back and suggest you actually did not say it.
If I said the sky was blue today, and everyone with me nodded in agreement, I certainly would or could suggest later that a whole bunch of people agreed that the sky was blue. Even though they may not of actually said anything. Same concept.
For the record, I have no clue who you are on other forums. I actually do not remember a "deknow", but maybe I forgot. Maybe if the screen name is different, you could clue me in. There seemed to be many conversations over the years between smallcell groupies, FGMO, and the like.
For the record (part 2).....I never wrote a book. So I have no vested interest in promoting smallcell. I was the first that I recall, to openly stick my neck out long before any studies or others coming forward discounting smallcell. But just as I give a pro/con view on many things, such as TBH and Warre hives posted on my website, I only say what I know, what I have found out, etc. No book deals. No speaker engagements. No stroking my own ego thinking I'm part of some movement while having blinders on, or making a name for myself trying to be on the cutting edge. I try it, and tell you what I found. I know that ticks some off.
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Selling one of our thriving, small cell, treatment free hives would be an economic decision, nothing to do with proving anything. To get our bees where they are today represents a huge investment of time, money and energy on many levels.
We live in a society where as individuals in business for ourselves we are still free to set prices, ask for what we think something is worth and do business with those who are willing to pay. There is also the emotional component...wanting something that we feel has great value to go to a good home, to someone who would equally appreciate the value.
$50,000 would be a more realistic figure for me to consider letting go of one of my current hives. Whoever would be willing to pay would either be highly motivated to figure out why the hive is successful and to keep it going or be willing to spend a lot of money to prove that my hive isn't worth what they paid. Less than $50,000 would not be enough of a motivation for me to give up a hive.
In life there are no real shortcuts. Ultimately, everyone has to figure things out on their own. There are plenty of people to help along the way but you have to be open and receptive to what they can offer. We didn't start with "special" bees, just sought out successful treatment free beekeepers, worked with them in their yards, paid attention to what we saw and tried to replicate as closely as possible what we saw them doing.
Most people I've met (in all areas of life) are very happy to share what they know if they feel they are sharing with those who are sincere in their attempts to understand what is being shared. This doesn't mean that they are willing to sell off valuable parts of their lives or livelihoods just because someone asks and has set the price at what they think the parts are worth. Just because you want something and have set the price you are willing to pay doesn't mean you are going to get what you want at that price. You may never get it from someone else at any price. You may need to create it yourself.
Maybe the reason why, after 10 years, you are unable to purchase a fully functioning small cell, treatment free hive is that they are worth more to the people who have invested their resources to actually create them than they would be to you.
Ramona
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Looks like the "Smallcell Grapevine" is all a buzz. Great first post ramona. Just can not believe that you happened upon the site and this was your first post. Let me say....welcome to the forum.
Tell all the other supporters of smallcell to drop on over. :-D
I'll withhold my opinion on someone not willing to sell a hive for 49,000 dollars. To think that anything short of 50 grand will not overcome some emotional attachment of a beehive is a bit hard to swallow.
I've heard some rather questionable things from smallcell groupies. Three years of failure while regression is completed, "leveling out" discounting studies, etc. But this may just take the cake. 50,000 for a hive. Although you have me snickering, I think the rationale has hit a new level in rationalizing, defending, and promoting smallcell.
Keep it coming. This is GOOD!
I hope anyone considering smallcell, is taking all this in. This emotional attachment from 3000 smallcell beekeepers, and the inability to purchase a hive for less than 50,000 dollars, is surprising to me. I've heard many excuses. But this well planned playbook response caught me off guard. So I will not be able to buy a hive as now all smallcell people will be on the same page claiming emotional attachment valued at 50,000 dollars.
BTW....I will be happy to sell one of my smallcell for 25,000. Paypal and credit cards excepted. :roll:
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BjornBee,
I have mainly lurked here and other Bee forums and I have always respected your veiws.
I am curious what your theory is about all this? Another words do you believe the claims small cell keepers make about the mites, but they have mistakenly attributed it to the small cell or do you think they are just over stating their success? While you have not come right out and said it, is it safe to believe you don't think small cells helps with the mites?
I am a hobby Bee keeper, foundationless so I guess my bee's cells are what ever the bees make them. So I have no dog in this fight one way or the other......but I am always trying to learn.
Stu
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My comments are from the overall message, often repeated, and just repeated on another thread 24 hours ago, with the simple message.....Regress to 4.9 and your mite problems will go away.
again, those are your words not mine. my mite problems did not go away until i regressed. when i regressed they did. i know other people not using treatments who don't have mite problems, some of them are on 4.9, some are on about 5.1, and some on 5.4.....many on natural comb that is being shuffled around willy nilly of all kinds of sizes.
It is your comments in clear defense of these remarks, that make my comments directed at you. You need not say one thing or another or get defensive. It is your message, and comments being defensive, and spattering the conversation with 3000 of this, or two conferences of that, dropping names such as Lusby, and now mentioning your writing of a book....all adds up to you perhaps not being exactly quoted as saying this or that, but the message is loud and clear.
i try to be as clear and as precise as possible when i talk or write. if you're going to attribute statements to me, please quote me. I've never said what you claim I said.
when i mentioned 3000 members on the orgainc iist and the fact that we have written a book (on exactly the topic you are questioning here in this thread), it was to point out that no one is keeping any secrets, and that the methods being used are discussed freely and readily available.
I can't control what you think "my mesage" is...I can only control what I say and write...and I stand by all that. If I were to express my message in a few words it would be that bees should be kept without treatments, and without artifical feeding. We found this to be possible after regressing our bees to small cell.
Someone said "regress and your mite problem go away". I questioned and targeted that. You defended it in every way. But now step back and suggest you actually did not say it.
what did I say? I think I offered an opinion on the best way to regress...as did you, did you not (using a warre)? I said nothing like "regress and your problems will go away"
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,28814.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,28814.0.html)
you are fabricating statements, and placing them in my mouth. i don't really appreciate it.
If I said the sky was blue today, and everyone with me nodded in agreement, I certainly would or could suggest later that a whole bunch of people agreed that the sky was blue. Even though they may not of actually said anything. Same concept.
For the record, I have no clue who you are on other forums. I actually do not remember a "deknow", but maybe I forgot. Maybe if the screen name is different, you could clue me in. There seemed to be many conversations over the years between smallcell groupies, FGMO, and the like.
For the record (part 2).....I never wrote a book. So I have no vested interest in promoting smallcell. I was the first that I recall, to openly stick my neck out long before any studies or others coming forward discounting smallcell. But just as I give a pro/con view on many things, such as TBH and Warre hives posted on my website, I only say what I know, what I have found out, etc. No book deals. No speaker engagements. No stroking my own ego thinking I'm part of some movement while having blinders on, or making a name for myself trying to be on the cutting edge. I try it, and tell you what I found. I know that ticks some off.
yes, it's clear you are not stroking your ego :roll:
discounting small cell was hardly ever "sticking one's neck out".
do you think i'm lying when i say what i've tried and what my experience is?
are you implying that no one besides you can find anything out for themselves? ...or even that someone might find out someting that contradicts something that you found? your contention seems to be that "small cell doesn't work"....but even if you had my best hive, how could you prove that "small cell doesn't work for deknow"? or do you think bees are so simple that all that is needed is the right recipe?
deknow
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Bjorn, I will take you up on that hive. Of course, you will also have to guarantee it will overwinter safely for 20 years and produce 3 deeps of honey each year. That, and help me find a market to sell that honey at 20.00 per lb. From what I have read here, that shouldn't be too much to ask. :roll:
I mean, my surviving hives, one of which was a swarm caught in 2001, and never treated, not even a screen bottom board, nor sc, only produced 84 lb. this year. I will consider myself lucky to average 5.00 per lb. for it, so the quality must not be near what sc honey is.
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I currently have a swarm from a hive that is terrible with varroa. Parent hive is on old standard size comb from foundation. The swarm is on small cell foundation and are seemingly doing well. This swarm was caught in late May.
I will keep this post in mind and will compare overall health of the 'same' bees in the 'same' yard. 2 different styles of comb is the only management.
To be continued.....
BTW. I'll sell ya a totally reverted 2 box hive this next spring if the offer is still there.
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BTW....I will be happy to sell one of my smallcell for 25,000. Paypal and credit cards excepted. :roll:
Well shoot, if paypal and credit is excepted, that leaves cash or check, and I don't keep that kind of cash around!! :-P
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BjornBee,
I have mainly lurked here and other Bee forums and I have always respected your views.
Thank you.
I am curious what your theory is about all this? Another words do you believe the claims small cell keepers make about the mites, but they have mistakenly attributed it to the small cell or do you think they are just over stating their success? While you have not come right out and said it, is it safe to believe you don't think small cells helps with the mites?
question #1....Yes.
question #2....Yes.
question #3....Help is a far cry from the sale of goods promoted by others. That is my point.
I am a hobby Bee keeper, foundationless so I guess my bee's cells are what ever the bees make them. So I have no dog in this fight one way or the other......but I am always trying to learn.
Stu
Nice choice going foundationless. ;)
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BTW....I will be happy to sell one of my smallcell for 25,000. Paypal and credit cards excepted. :roll:
Well shoot, if paypal and credit is excepted, that leaves cash or check, and I don't keep that kind of cash around!! :-P
:cheer:
You got me.... ;)
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Bjorn, I will take you up on that hive. Of course, you will also have to guarantee it will overwinter safely for 20 years and produce 3 deeps of honey each year. That, and help me find a market to sell that honey at 20.00 per lb. From what I have read here, that shouldn't be too much to ask. :roll:
I mean, my surviving hives, one of which was a swarm caught in 2001, and never treated, not even a screen bottom board, nor sc, only produced 84 lb. this year. I will consider myself lucky to average 5.00 per lb. for it, so the quality must not be near what sc honey is.
:-D Hello iddee.
My best hive right now is a hive only opened once in the past two years. Not opened last year, and opened only once this year for the state inspectors. Total mite count.....0! And on regular foundation. Imagine that. And that can be comfirmed with the state.... :-D Nothing to hide here.
And if anyone wants to drop by I may open it again..... ;) I may need to take off a couple supers.
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I think Nasal Sponge had it...religion and politics...there is always a game being played by some one..if you don't like the rules they play by..don't play with them..
What I know about small cell at this point is worth a hole of beans..not much, but I am studying..I am a large fan of sustainable agriculture and natural production, so the small cell, top bar hives and pretty much anything else the allows the bees to be bees without making too many descisions for them is a point of interest to me...little buggers have been making honey for 60 million years..and we're going to tell them how to do it better.. :-D
Of course, i'm not trying to make 10000 lbs of honey a year either..my operation will be small..for friends and family, and maybe a little to sell...
Heh..there is a chinese honey joke in here somewhere..even if it isn't funny..
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zopi, First, you take a natural variance of cell sizes and make them use one size only, as in sc, then you take a naturally vertical elongated hive like a hollow tree and make them work horizontally in a TBH.
Then you actually state you want to let the bees be bees.
You can't do both..............
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Is Zopi using small cell? Anybody who keeps bees in boxes is altering the natural state of the bee. Whether it is a Langstroth, topbar or Warre.
As for the rest of the conversation, I keep hearing people say that small cell or natural cell is only ONE variable in their beekeeping methods, which also include things such as not treating, not feeding sugar, etc. I am not hearing anyone say that small or natural cell alone is THE answer to mites (at least not in this thread).
Bjorn--how about you try the proposed methods in your own beeyard and see where it takes you? Or, have you already done so? No treatments, no sugar, natural or small-cell comb?
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i don't think we should confuse mite resistance with natural beekeeping. i'm not even sure that there is A definition of natural beekeeping. i'm probably pretty close to "natural" now, but do not hesitate to feed. for that matter, i would consider treating with apiguard if i saw an explosion of mites and was in danger of losing all my hives.
for a while, small cells was presented as the answer to mites, by many. i don't think there are many reasonable beekeepers who would still hold that position. small cell can not be considered natural. as iddee pointed out, you are forcing bees to use a certain size cell regardless of what they might have built if left to their own.
there is nothing natural about keeping bees. that might be the first concept that new beekeepers need to grasp. while you might want to do things as close to natural as you can, it is not natural to keep them in something, look at them routinely, pull parts of the hive apart, take honey, etc. it is also not natural to keep many hives in one area.
once you figure out that there is no such thing as "natural beekeeping" you can figure out just how un-natural you want to get........
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there is nothing natural about keeping bees. that might be the first concept that new beekeepers need to grasp. while you might want to do things as close to natural as you can, it is not natural to keep them in something, look at them routinely, pull parts of the hive apart, take honey, etc. it is also not natural to keep many hives in one area.
once you figure out that there is no such thing as "natural beekeeping" you can figure out just how un-natural you want to get........
Exactly. For me, it means no foundation, no "treatments," hopefully eventually no feeding. I also had no mites last year, but I can't really get a good answer on how much "free time" a new package gets before mites begin to normally be a problem...
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mites come with brood. by next year, if not sooner, you will find mites.
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zopi, First, you take a natural variance of cell sizes and make them use one size only, as in sc, then you take a naturally vertical elongated hive like a hollow tree and make them work horizontally in a TBH.
Then you actually state you want to let the bees be bees.
You can't do both..............
Ah...was confusing terminology...my bad. :oops:
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Bjorn--how about you try the proposed methods in your own beeyard and see where it takes you? Or, have you already done so? No treatments, no sugar, natural or small-cell comb?
Maybe I should make this clear to those who have not previously heard my rants and diatribes on this matter. :-D
I have had smallcell for about 7 years. Early on I had questions about it. I heard many claims, including the idea that smallcell was even AFB resistant. I read many confusing statements like some I mentioned earlier in this post, where smallcell success was attributed to genetics and environmental conditions. I did not see differences in my bees between smallcell and other comb the first year or two. I was told it takes 3 years for full regression among other things.
I started speaking out about smallcell about 5 years ago. I just saw many hives thrive, regardless of on smallcell or not. I continued to play around with smallcell. I found out that after full regression, bees will not stay regressed if given foundationless frames. I listened as smallcell was called natural, that if you put your bees on smallcell all your mite worries go away, and a host of other things.
I waited for research. Then a couple years ago, they started being completed. But the researchers were made out to be idiots, and excuses were wildly thrown about by the smallcell groupies. They did this wrong, they did that wrong. The bees were not isolated. The bees failed due to "leveling out". First it was the claim that mites were suppressed. Then when the mite counts came back the same, a new claim was made suggesting although the mites were the same, the smallcell hives produced more bees. It is almost as if one reason is latched onto till debunked, then it magically transforms into something different.
We now have four independent studies from three different countries all debunking smallcell claims. Yet, one guys observation (Dennis) about taking smallcell and putting them back on large cell resulted in death. That unscientific tidbit is like the holy grail of smallcell. But four studies, with one including a huge proponent of smallcell, is cast aside as junk science.
So we are in about ten years now. And yet, not one group of smallcell beekeepers have ever actually run tested research. And they dismiss the research by respected professionals. No smallcell beekeepers have ever opened up their bee yards to testing, scrutiny, or unbiased evaluation.
So for ten years, we keep hearing, "The only way to prove this is to try it yourself". And in the past when others like me have done so and come out with results not in line with the agenda, it is because "I have an agenda" or "I did not know what I was doing".
I also had the pleasure of inspecting hives of other beekeepers with bees and queens from some of the biggest proponents of smallcell. And the comments and results from these other beekeepers were far short of what is claimed and often repeated on the forum.
So I started this thread to throw the ball back in the other court. Why are there no studies of smallcell by smallcell beekeepers? Of course all you get is "My proof is in my own apiary. You need to take me at my word, but please no testing or looking". Keep in mind, not one smallcell beekeeper is willing to sell a hive for research. Not one has opened his yard up for testing. Now we get the "My hive's are worth 50,000 dollars" excuse.
After ten years, while research was done, we get nothing from those actually promoting smallcell. And the problem is, there is always that next new group of beekeepers looking for the silver bullet, the easy fix. And that same message can be heard in many products. But this vinegar machine, spray that oil, build that hive, use that comb, go this meeting, buy this book, follow this protocol.....and all your worries go away.
It seems after 10 years, eventually someone needs to step up to the plate. We need to get beyond the whole "The best I can do is tell you to try it and see for yourself". I did. And I found out what others have also found out.
If I was to do any further testing, imagine what would be said at this point. They dismiss others with much more credibility and credentials than I have.
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:pop: My, this thread is getting more fun by the hour. I can't wait to see how it ends, but I doubt anyone will step up to the challenge.
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Dee and Ed Lusby worked with the Tucson bee lab for years. You can see some of the work they did with the lab on Beesource in the POV section. When the Lusby's regressed their bees in the 1990's, the lab sent someone out regularly to do mite counts. Eventually they stopped coming, saying it was not worth their while as they were not finding mites to count.
I went through all Dee's hives with her (~600 hives) a couple of years ago and saw one mite. One more showed up in one of the many photos I looked at when I got home.
Dee will tell you that small cell is one component of bee health. Making sure that the bees have clean honey and pollen to eat (no feeding with sugar, HFCS, pollen substitutes or supplements, avoiding agriculture and the associated pesticides and fungicides), proper breeding (locally acclimatized survivor stock, openly mated queens - no AI or bringing in complex hybridized queens), letting the queen have access to unlimited broodnest (no queen excluder, honey stored to the sides of all the boxes while the queen lays up the center gut of 5 or more deeps) and absolutely no treatments ("organic", "natural", essential oils, "soft" treatments, "hard" treatments, absolutely NO treatments) are equally important. If you spend any time on the organic beekeeping list on yahoo you will see her repeating these points over and over and over again. Just going to small cell without looking at these management practices won't get you very far as they are all integrated.
I went to work with her so I could see for myself what she was doing and what her bees look like. I've replicated as closely as I can what I saw her doing with her bees. Our climates and geographical locations are completely different but I am now seeing in my own bees (in multiple locations) what I saw in hers. It has taken me 10 years, several false starts and many losses to get to where I am now. I'm grateful to have a model of success (as I define it) to be able to learn from and am really excited to be experiencing the payoff of diligently applying what I've learned.
Ramona
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Nasal as Bjorn has pointed out this is about science, I am not sure how you see the relationship between a testable hypothesis like this and religion. Religion is a belief system generally based on how your parents raised you as a child i.e. catholic parents you most likely will be catholic, Hindu parents you most likely will be Hindu, etc. It has nothing to do with testing and deciding where the truth lies. Ever met anyone who came to religion by studying multiple faiths for many years and then deciding that one is the absolute truth? Religion gives the same arguments as sc. just join my church and you will see how happy you will be. Experiments can easily be designed to test any of the claims of sc.
Being a plant breeder by training, I think we are all going to find that it is the genetics of the populations that each group is working with and unrelated to the method. If a farmer plants a good corn hybrid it doesn't matter whether he plants it with a green tractor or a red one or if he uses dry fertilizer or liquid, the hybrid will still be good. During the time it takes to regress bees down, you are also not treating and thus selecting for improved mite resistance, etc. So you are confounding two different effects and cannot separate them. I would be willing to bet $500 that the success SC individuals are seeing is due to genetic selection and the size issue is just an uncorrelated effect.
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Ramona that's super and i'm sure we all applaud your efforts. who knows, you and those like you, may be the last beekeepers someday. in the mean time, what you have done is probably beyond what most backyard beekeepers can do. the best most of us can do is take what you and others have done and adapt as much as we can into our own practices.
i don't have a problem with what anyone chooses to do in beekeeping. we all have to find our own way. i only have a problem with those who make their practices into a religion of beekeeping and berate those who do not worship at the same alter.
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Thank you, Ramona. That is a great post and confirms what Bjorn has said 100%.
I firmly believe if you follow Dee's instructions as you have, with only one small change, which is to use large cell rather than small cell, you will see exactly the same results. Many have said that if we had just let the mite ridden hives die during the 90's and not propped them up, we would have no mites. Ten years of doing just that has given you the results you now have. Good work, and as said, great post.
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Dee Lusby is in a highly Africanized area which are known to be resistant to mites. My guess is she has integrated some African alleles into her populations while selecting for gentleness. She has been asked on numerous occaisions to submit samples for genetic fingerprinting but to my knowledge never has. Unless she uses AI exlusively it would be almost impossible for her not to have had some stray young men visiting her young ladies.
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i don't have a problem with what anyone chooses to do in beekeeping. we all have to find our own way. i only have a problem with those who make their practices into a religion of beekeeping and berate those who do not worship at the same alter.
Amen to that!! You mean like George Imarie? While I found some of his writings useful, I find his absolute attitude insufferable. Sure, he could produce more honey than I'll ever be able to, but I sure enjoy what I do and have no desire to have hives that produce more honey than they do now.
Don't do small cell myself, but if somebody tries it and it works for them, even if it is more because of practice and not the actual dimensions of a cell, who cares, its working. There's only...oh say about 45,679 different ways to care for one's bees.
I don't know about other beekeepers, but I've read about all the different methods, got excited about all of them, tried them all, and settled down to use what I found works best for me.
Small cell will never be "proven" but I'm sure it will continue to work great for some people for whatever reason.
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Hi All,
Thanks for your posts. A few things to clarify...
First of all, when I stopped treating I lost all my bees for several years. If I got them to survive the winter they would crash and die in the spring and I would start over again. This is not a 10 year project of breeding through, it is a 10 year project of stopping treatments, repeatedly losing all my bees, getting some bees regressed and then beginning to keep the bees alive long enough that they could actually build up and become sustainable. Before regressing I couldn't get enough survivors to work with. After regressing when I lost bees I still had my small cell treatment free combs to use to build up the survivors and newly regressed packages more easily. (After regressing on Honey Super Cell, my bees draw foundationless comb...they draw small cell worker cells and bigger cells for drone rearing and honey storage. This is one point where I could not replicate Dee exactly as she has a large supply of untreated wax and makes her own foundation...I have not yet allocated resources to make my own small cell foundation. My worker bees that emerge from the foundationless combs continue to draw small worker cells.) I do know beekeepers who are treatment free and not small cell, however, I didn't have hundreds of hives to start with in the hopes that I would still have some survivors to work with. Regressing made the most sense to me when I looked at all the options.
Second thing. Dee has had her bees tested for AHB but the different testing locations couldn't agree as there was not a uniform database being used. Whether or not they are AHB is irrelevant to me as (#1) I was able to work with her bees without a problem (#2) They didn't act as I had heard AHB described. They didn't attack or cover me, they were huge colonies and big honey producers, not the small, swarmy, aggressive non-honey producing colonies you hear about when AHB is described and (#3) I DON"T live in an AHB area, my hives started with a mix of generic packages from Georgia, no special queens and some (non-AHB) small cell nucs with open mated queens yet my best hives now look very similar to what I saw when I worked with Dee and I DON"T HAVE A MITE PROBLEM.
What can I say? I'm happy I got this far and I'm confident others can, too, as I read many posts from others who are following this path and talk to some in person. What we have in common is paying attention to the importance of ALL the management practices I wrote about in my last post. Regressing seems to be key to the survival of our hives so that we can actually benefit from the post-regression buildup of our colonies. Many of us are are backyard beekeepers and we live all over the world with many different variables. Many posts concern management questions but mites are a non-issue.
Anyone is welcome to do whatever experiments they like to test whatever result they're looking for. As I said before, I don't have anything to prove to anyone other than myself. I put my resources on the line and am seeing the results.
I'm old enough now to understand that everything in life is both way more complex AND simultaneously way more simple than I can possible comprehend and at this point in my life I would never claim to know anything absolutely or tell another person there is only one way to do anything. All I can say is, this way seems to be working for me, makes sense to me and I'm getting results that make me really happy. There may be other ways but I have not experienced them. As this path seems to be working for many others as well, I am confident to recommend it.
Ramona
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I just saw many hives thrive, regardless of on smallcell or not. I continued to play around with smallcell. I found out that after full regression, bees will not stay regressed if given foundationless frames. I listened as smallcell was called natural, that if you put your bees on smallcell all your mite worries go away, and a host of other things.
What size will full regression bees make if give in foundationless frames?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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I just saw many hives thrive, regardless of on smallcell or not. I continued to play around with smallcell. I found out that after full regression, bees will not stay regressed if given foundationless frames. I listened as smallcell was called natural, that if you put your bees on smallcell all your mite worries go away, and a host of other things.
What size will full regression bees make if give in foundationless frames?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
That depends on the time of the year, flow, need of the bees, etc. You get a range of cells. You can put foundationless frames between two fully drawn 4.9 comb frames and they do not keep it the same size.
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The techniques I'm trying haven't been my techniques long enough to really declare anything about them. I do listen to the advice given by experienced keepers, and compare it to the directions I wan to take.
As an overall, I'm not going to split hairs about what 'natural' beekeeping is. A colony, as the cutout and retreival experts on this site will confirm, will set up housekeeping in any hollow cavity they find themselves preferring - people on this site have also spoken of swarms preferring empty topbar or langstroth hives. (Either I would consider natural based on the fact that a swarm chose it as residence with the lures of whatever scents taken into consideration) By my definition 'natural' would be to let the bees decide for themselves what size cells to put in the broodnest, and to limit interference as a keeper.
I wanted to also ask for a distinction on 'mite resistant' as compared to 'mite proof'.
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When you're finally selling queen(s) from this particular hive for $15.00 to $20.00 plus shipping, I'd be interested. or will I hear the "get in line" comment?
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Seems like one management practice mentioned, which I don't hear or read much about, is the notion of a brood nest up the center of 5 deeps...I wonder if this is a significant factor and how do you get the queen to do it? She typically doesn't move up into the honey frames, so I would imagine you need to do some brood and frame shuffling to get that to happen?
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I think the unlimited broodnest concept is significant. I like to think of it in economic terms. Any business with lots of capital (workers, ready cash, etc.) is in a better position to take advantage of opportunities. Unlimited broodnest lets the bees build very large colonies, store a lot of food to overwinter and be available in case of dearth, and have resources for early spring buildup without artificial feeding.
Another thing I've been thinking about just in the last few weeks is how unlimited broodnest might help to prevent swarming. We hear that one factor in the swarming impulse is the dilution of queen pheremone in the hive when the hive gets too big. This makes sense if queen excluders are used and there are supers on. But with unlimited broodnest, the queen is traveling up and down the center gut and making more contact with the entire hive. I don't have any scientific studies to support this, just observation that our really big hives don't swarm and the idea of why they don't makes sense to me. Again, we have never had overwintered hives that we could build up to this point before we went to small cell.
Management includes adding a box when the bees have filled 8 frame or so, moving a few brood frames from the center of the box up into the empty box, consolidating the brood frames below and placing the undrawn frames from above on either sides of the broodnest (either small cell foundation or foundationless frames). I keep adding boxes as long as the bees are building up and using the space. If a hive is badly in need of space and I'm in a hurry, I'll just pop a new box on preferably one with at least some drawn comb.
Another thing about small cell that rarely gets mentioned is the density of brood per frame. Small cell frames have hundreds more bees per frame. (Sorry...will have to find exact numbers later...) If you multiply the numbers per brood frame x brood frames per box, that's a lot more bees per hive.
We will have survivor stock queens for sale this year but they will be $25 plus shipping. We're filling existing orders now but can add interested parties to the list. As I mentioned before, all the hives were started with "regular" bees. I think it is the management practices that have allowed them to build the way they have. I'm sure these queens will be just as good if not better than mass produced queens but I don't think the queens will perform "magic" if separated from the whole system of management practices that have gotten them to where they are now. Buyers beware!!!
Ramona
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Ramona--This sounds very interesting. How would you translate your management practices for topbar beekeepers? Thanks--luvin' honey
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Thanks for the response Ramona. That makes sense and is probably contrary to the way I have been managing my hives and maybe many others as well. I have been moving honey up and inserting emptys in the center to open up the brood nest. That is a management practice that I would like to try to incorporate into a few of my hives to see how they respond to it. Thanks again...and also to you BjornBee for opening this "can of worms"...it is an interesting discussion.
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Re: Top bar hive management:
I'm not very experienced with top bar hives (I know some top bar hive beekeepers and have seen their hives but have not kept one myself). I'm also not sure how exactly the huge Langstroth hives I've worked (mine and others) would translate to top bar hives. Two things...(#1) If I wanted to run top bar hives I would try and find someone who has hives that (a) look the way I would want my hives to look and (b) are doing what I would want my hives to do and try and figure out their management practices. (#2) I would make sure that my top bar hives had the volume of at least 3 or 4 deep Langstroth boxes.
Some folks seem to really like the Warre hive which is top bars run vertically. Boxes are added from underneath instead of on top. I think there are contraptions for lifting the whole hive to get the new boxes underneath. I have never tried a Warre hive but do know of at least one ex-top bar person who is now doing Warre (have never seen their hives or apiary, just heard that they switched).
Re: Opening up the broodnest:
We tend to move honey frames to the side and brood frames up.
I don't generally like isolating frames of open brood. I will insert foundationless frames between brood frames if the hive is really crowded because the open foundationless frames don't separate the exisitng frames like a frame of foundation does. If I'm adding drawn combs or in the rare case foundation, I try and put those at the outsides of the broodnest. If the brood is capped, I'm less concerned about separating brood frames.
Ramona
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Great Thread !!!
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Great Thread !!!
Yeah, but no one has stepped up to sell Mike a hive.
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Great Thread !!!
Yeah, but no one has stepped up to sell Mike a hive.
But that is ok... ;)
I knew the outcome, the responses, the angles, etc. The conclusion of my supposed "purchase" of bees was already cast. It was presented that I wanted to kill the bees. Or that my study would be slanted to only one conclusion. It reaffirms and allows the repeated response that others who have gone down that path have had to deal with.
I was pleasantly surprised that some chimed in with thoughtful comments. That the genetics are at play. That selection is a contributor. And that there is more to the story of smallcell than the often repeated message sent to many new beekeepers. Anyone who simply thinks they will regress bees and somehow all their problems go away, they will be sadly mistaken.
I have no desire to purchase bees. My finding would mean nothing by doing the same thing I already have accomplished. My desire was to have a conversation perhaps to help others reading this thread that maybe they should think about both sides, consider all the ideas, and not base their decisions on one persons website, or one narrow view expressed.
Beekeeping is full of claims. Whether it bee smallcell, Warre hives, TBH, FGMO, vinegar machines, etc. Most have agendas or are out to promote their product, their position, ego, etc.
I enjoyed this thread. Conversations such as this is banned or not allowed on some of the forums by the very people who are out promoting one way of keeping bees or another. That should tell you something. And that is why I will never put on blinders, promote one type of beekeeping, and limit other beekeepers from access of the full range of knowledge from across the board. New beekeepers should be on alert of the snake oil approach to claims, systematically controlled by others, and any idea that attacks those with dissenting views.
And you should be thankful for having a place like this forum to do it all in..... ;)
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Thanks for the thread Mike. As a REALLY green, close to beeing a beekeeper, I have learned a lot from this thread.
The practice of narrow mindedness is prevalent throughout our society, and at my age I stopped believing everything that is printed or spoken and insist on finding the information out for myself rather than blind faith. Many groups of people publish books, or sell products promoting a special technique, then spend the rest of their lives defending their theory, or worse yet, diminishing those who take another route.
I am glad after doing the reading and lurking I have here, that I have found someone who thinks the same way I do, and look forward to learning what I can from you. See you at the picnic and thanks for the thought provoking thread.
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New beekeepers should be on alert of the snake oil approach to claims, systematically controlled by others, and any idea that attacks those with dissenting views.
And you should be thankful for having a place like this forum to do it all in..... ;)
Absolutely! I don't get that sense from anybody here on this forum, at least not in this thread, but there are some things that just "work" and it's hard to define all the variables or understand the interplay that causes them to work.
I would be very hard pressed to explain why my vegetable fields/gardens "work" in the organic system they are in. The variables are too many, too complex, too misunderstood by me. But they clearly work differently than crops grown in a conventional system.
I appreciate this thread because it is opening up my eyes to many of the variables in play by beeks that I respect and whose results I would like to someday have. I love my bee books, but this forum is where I get most of my information!
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Threads like this are good as long as we discuss the ideas ,not attack the person stating the ideas.It has brought out a lot of thought and discussion.
In the end we may just have to come away agreeing to disagree,but points well made. :)
But be very careful ,debate the ideas, and do not attack anothers point of view or experience and we can continue these debates.
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i don't have a problem with what anyone chooses to do in beekeeping. we all have to find our own way. i only have a problem with those who make their practices into a religion of beekeeping and berate those who do not worship at the same alter.
l wonder how many people here read these words and had an image of a beekeeper they knew appear because this statement describes them so well ? Well worded Kathy.
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Beekeeping is full of claims. Whether it bee smallcell, Warre hives, TBH, FGMO, vinegar machines, etc. Most have agendas or are out to promote their product, their position, ego, etc.
And the interesting thing is that those claims and methods work great for some people for whatever reason, and will probably continue to do so. And are worthless for others.
Like in medicine, there is always going to be a number one best way to deal with things and circumstances. But there will always be people who respond better to one way versus another way.
Methods in beekeeping, like medicine are more about the person than it is about the bees or medicine, imho. The only way to find the best fit is to keep an open mind and try the stuff.
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Unlimited broodnest lets the bees build very large colonies, store a lot of food to overwinter and be available in case of dearth, and have resources for early spring buildup without artificial feeding.
Another thing I've been thinking about just in the last few weeks is how unlimited broodnest might help to prevent swarming. We hear that one factor in the swarming impulse is the dilution of queen pheremone in the hive when the hive gets too big. But with unlimited broodnest, the queen is traveling up and down the center gut and making more contact with the entire hive. I don't have any scientific studies to support this, just observation that our really big hives don't swarm and the idea of why they don't makes sense to me.
Management includes adding a box when the bees have filled 8 frame or so, moving a few brood frames from the center of the box up into the empty box, consolidating the brood frames below and placing the undrawn frames from above on either sides of the broodnest (either small cell foundation or foundationless frames). I keep adding boxes as long as the bees are building up and using the space.
OK now that my curiousity has got the best of me, how do you handle the harvest and how offen do you requeen the hives ?
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Dun-ta-dahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:
Bjorn Bee!
You get the USA discussion board topic of the year award from BUGLEMAN.
I like your exploratory attitude.
As for me and my Queens from Old Sol and feral swarms/cut outs, they are doing very well on Small Cell.
It has taken me a few years to get here, mainly 3 + 2 years of study. I do have hives that look like Dee's.
Yes Bjorn the genetics has alot to do with it IMHO mostly because I haven't done enough counting to say for sure. The WSU queen I have on small cell will be interesting. Going into the main flow they were 3 boxes of brood over a pollen box full of bees with 2 supers of bees on top. :) All very healthy.
I can only laugh at the ignorance of the "experts" taking "Jerry Springer" bees then counting mites in a few months and declaring SC doesn't work especially with out a mention of Drone Brood. They need to take small cell adapted bees and put them on standard commercial foundation.
I need to do better mite counting but I have bees with 3 boxes of brood on 4.9 plastic foundation for the last 2+ months that look spectacular. I do drone brood manipulation. So does Dee but she just limits drone brood production through comb selection. Don't tell her I said it. :shock: In a few weeks I will do some say 24 and 48 hour natural mite drop tests and see how we line up this year and maybe take you up on your offer.
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I can only laugh at the ignorance of the "experts" taking "Jerry Springer" bees then counting mites in a few months and declaring SC doesn't work especially with out a mention of Drone Brood. They need to take small cell adapted bees and put them on standard commercial foundation.
While I very much enjoyed your entire post, we do need to keep it in perspective.
The smallcell study could of gone in many directions. But the main point was whether bees on smallcell generated fewer mites compared to larger cell sized comb. The main claim to smallcell at one time was the much shorter capping time and resulting fewer mites. (actually the first claim to smallcell was the idea that there simply was not enough room for mites to reproduce in smallcell comb....which was absurd. But I digress.... ;) ) So they took similar bees and placed them on both smallcell and regular comb. There was nothing wrong with that. You don't need years of comparison or special bees. By taking smallcell bees and placing it back on larger comb, you are looking at different testing criteria, and that is apples to oranges. The comb was supposed to do the job based on this mechanism of the comb. And that, was shown to be NOT the case. Of course, smallcell advocates now needed to back up and reevaluate their talking points. First it was denial. Then excuses. And now we have come into the "well, there is much more into smallcell than just comb". Of course that is one of the things I have been saying for years. Through regression, many changed out their comb eliminating tainted wax, bred from survivor stock, etc.
And also keep in mind, at least two of these studies (Berry) were with an advocate and promoter of smallcell. So she was not exactly running "blind".
So starting colonies with a similar mite count, with "Jerry Springer" bees, is probably EXACTLY what was best to determine the mites being generated between smallcell comb and comparing it to the growth of the mite count compared to "Jerry Springer" bees on regular comb. It eliminated all the other factors (genetics, etc.) and keyed in on this one main point promoted by some for many years now.
The results were that the mites reproducing in smallcell as compared to larger cell sized comb, was basically the same.
And this was exactly in line with what I have clearly said for years. That when it came to putting bees on clean comb, not using chemicals, and breeding from survivor stock, changing over the surrounding feral bees, etc., I had seen the same results in most of my hives whether smallcell or not.
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There are always unknowns to these types of issues that many folks never seem to consider.
I often think that a geological environment has an effect, be it great or small, on animals and insects like honey bees.
I am thinking of magnetism, sea level, air pressure, and other circumstances given to a particular area that might encourage or discourage certain behaviors or anatomical processes due to the effects of said geological influences on biological creatures.
I agree with bjorn and kathy that people can become so fixated on something that to them it becomes more than just 'the' way to do things for them and they begin to expect it to be 'the' way for everyone else too, regardless of differences in environment or situation.
I myself am not opposed or in favor of 'small' cell as I don't even think about it due to my being focused on running all natural comb foundation never enters the equation for me one way or the other in terms of cell sizes.
at the same time, I don't worry about if other people use foundation or not, if they want to, they do. Now if you are helping someone in their bee yard, you may disagree with practices, but you should respect their methods knowing that you can do things your way in your own bee yards.
just my two cent,
Big Bear
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bigbearomaha,
Thanks for the Bear Hug.
I am convinced of the relationship that Lusby advocates between cell size and latitude/elevation. When looking at the core spring brood nest, smaller cells are preferred in Northern climates, so for me that is the springboard.
I need similar sized comb in the spring to make swarm prevention manipulations so, all my comb is 4.9mm.
Bjornbee,
I must continue this discussion at a later date. Now, I must get to work.
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OK now that my curiousity has got the best of me, how do you handle the harvest ......
I would love to know this, too!
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For anyone who is wondering how a harvest can be done from a hive 6 deeps tall (if you're not tall and/or particularly blessed with supreme upper body strength), here is my report from a few days ago:
I used a wheelbarrow to move a step-ladder and empty deeps with foundationless frames to the hives. Had some 5 frame nuc boxes with covers already at the hives.
Got up on the step-ladder a few steps up so I was over the top box. Puffed a bit of smoke under the cover and opened. Went through each frame, removing the ones that were at least 3/4 capped, went down ladder for each frame, brushed bees off and and put it in nuc box on ground re-covering each time.
I replaced the harvested frames with foundationless frames, alternating with honey frames.
Once I had removed half the frames, no problem lifting the deep off and going down to the fifth box and repeating process.
Five frame nucs of full honey frames could be easily carried over to the wheel barrow at edge of the hives and wheeled back to car.
The second 6 deep hive top box had ten full frames of honey but no frames capped enough to take. I still removed 5 frames into the nuc box (not brushing because I knew I wouldn't take them) allowing me to get the top box light enough to lift it off and go down to the fifth to see what was going on there. Same as top box, ten frames full of honey but none capped enough to take. I put the honey frames back in the top box AFTER I got it back on the hive.
It is more time consuming to do it this way than being able to lift a whole deep full of honey (not that I even could) but because the bees are treatment free and the honey will easily sell at a premium, it's worth the time.
Was doing this in almost 100 degree heat and had to stop a few times for shade and water. The bees were amazingly calm...very busy processing the honey and whatever other tasks they were up to. It was pretty humid so I was expecting them to be irritable but they weren't. I think with the unlimited broodnest the bees have plenty of resources and don't have to get defensive at some of their uppermost stores being taken. Remember, all the boxes have full frames of honey at the outsides...queen is laying up the center gut.
My current thinking is to leave all stores in the bottom four boxes for the bees. After I extract the frames I took, I'll swap them out for the newly capped full frames and let the bees fill them again. Will do this through fall and if bees for whatever reason have gone through stores in bottom four boxes will swap back full frames of honey into bottom four boxes so they go into winter with plenty of resources.
The step-ladder is key...can't imagine having to work over my head to pull those frames and boxes!
Hope this explanation helps...
Ramona
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Actually, it wasn't the height that had me puzzled. When you say the brood nest rises up the entire center of the hive, I was trying to figure out when/how you harvested. Do you wait until the broodnest consolidates before winter? In spring? Or, are there frames of honey on either side of the broodnest in each box of the hive?
Thanks :)
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Thanks for the description, Ramona. Because I don't yet have a good system of my own, it's really helpful for me to visualize how others work.
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Hi All,
I'll start a new thread titled "working with unlimited broodnest" ...right now have to go extract all the honey! Hope to be able to answer the ULB (unlimited broodnest) questions later tonight...
Ramona