Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => RAPID BEEYARD GROWTH => Topic started by: organicfarmer on June 15, 2010, 06:11:22 pm
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I am seeking to expand in a 2nd beeyard and have contacted fellow farmers. Someone was asking how much honey he'd get out of the deal (he also owns a restaurant and think he can supply some honey for it i guess !)
What is the common practice ? What do you offer the landowner in exchange for a dozen hives yard ?
i think free pollination, the pleasure of supporting a species in difficulties, and some (quantity???) honey.
Thanks in advance,
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Around here I get more request for me to place bees on their property that I have bees. They do not expect payment, just the use of the bees on their property. I always make sure they have honey for their table. Some even plant for the bees. (They get more honey). I live in a rural area and open space is not a problem.
Steve
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I'd try to approach it from a different angle. Go talk to farmers asking about what they are paying for pollination services(or if they no longer do it what they used to pay) and then ask about their interest in a year round contract. If they are interested now you have already established that what you are doing has value to them and you can offer them a discount from what a standard pollination contract would be in exchange for the "permanent" yard space. Just be sure to draw up a written contract outlining hive ownership and what each of your expectations are. That's the direction I'm headed. I've got one farmer who's said yes already and am hoping to add a new site every year or two depending on how many hives I end up growing to. The reduced fee won't make me any real profit, but it will at least allow me to break even on my equipment costs, that way whatever I get can for honey will be actual profit.
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Most who entertain the idea of placing hives on their property are usually happy to be doing their part to help bees prosper, but they do want honey in return. Give them what you can spare, perhaps a gallon or so.
Get to know them. Help them with any chores they may need help with. Volunteer to baby sit their kids, etc...
Recently, one of my Dad's friends was all excited about the idea and getting some honey in return but said he needed to run it by his two sisters. (family land)
The sisters decided they wanted $5,000.00 a year for me to place 20-30 hives on the property.
No thanks.
...JP
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An old beek used to drive through the family property to get to his hives in the back 40. He gave us around 1-2 gallons every year for that, and I think he was quite wonderfully generous! We would have been happy to let him go through for no cost, but even happier with the honey :)
As a vegetable grower, I would be happy with bees at no cost to the beek. If I didn't already have bees here, that is. I think many people would be happy just to do the good deed, especially if they knew about CCD and the value of bees to all of us.
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I am seeking to expand in a 2nd beeyard and have contacted fellow farmers. Someone was asking how much honey he'd get out of the deal (he also owns a restaurant and think he can supply some honey for it i guess !)
What is the common practice ? What do you offer the landowner in exchange for a dozen hives yard ?
i think free pollination, the pleasure of supporting a species in difficulties, and some (quantity???) honey.
Thanks in advance,
Define what type farmer you are contacting.
If it's a farmer who is benefiting from the bees, you should be getting paid.
If it's a commercial farmer that is NOT benefitting from your bees, you should look elsewhere. Corn, soybean, and other crop farm operations are the last place to keep bees healthy while expecting honey crops.
I keep bees on two types of property...
1) Commercial farms that pay me for my bees and pollination. If it was not for the pollination fee, there are way better places to keep bees.
2) Those yards I have sought for breeding clusters and drone saturation and those yards that are for honey and ease of operation to include queen rearing, etc. They include gentleman's farms, farms in CREP programs, and other non-spray operations. I may drop off some honey to these owners as they not only give me a place to keep healthy bees but call when they see a swarm or notice other problems. The guy that patrols my bee yards with his Uzi always get some extra. ;)
Looking for nonpaying yards is fine (as in the #2 option). But paying to keep your bees on traditional farming operations with the risks of chemicals, constant mowing, and large tracts of land planted in useless plants for bees, while expecting to PAY for such sites, is as bad as you can get.
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Looking for nonpaying yards is fine (as in the #2 option). But paying to keep your bees on traditional farming operations with the risks of chemicals, constant mowing, and large tracts of land planted in useless plants for bees, while expecting to PAY for such sites, is as bad as you can get.
No kidding! I wonder about finding yards/property that borders wetlands, wild areas, natural park-type areas...
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I was trying to find some land between the garden centers of the Home Depot, Walmart, and the K-mart.
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No kidding! I wonder about finding yards/property that borders wetlands, wild areas, natural park-type areas..
I started my new bee yard this year at a local conservation nature center protected forest. In return for the use of the space and anytime access, I provide presentations and information to their team of naturalists and to the visiting public on 'special' days at the nature center.
Big Bear
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"The sisters decided they wanted $5,000.00 a year for me to place 20-30 hives on the property."
Jp, thats unheard of. Last year when I asked a friend to place my hives on their "family land" he siad he wanted 1/2 of the honey produced. There was a post about that.
I found around here people are very happy just to get honey for payment. When people started finding out I had beehives in the city they started coming to me and offerring their land for free. I keep sayign I want to move my bees out of town but this year they have produced so much honey already I dont know it woudl be worth it to move them.
Shawn
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Shawn it was definitely a new one on me as well. I remember your post about the land owner wanting 1/2 of your honey harvests. That was absurd.
...JP
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Thanks for all the replies. They sum up what i thought.
i have my hives at a Nature Center in exchange for 'a bee class' and that works really well but i am outgrowing the place (esp. since it's in the middle of populated area.
i have since found many places outside the city that will happily take hives for their benefits (pollination) and no fee. We do not have large track of useless crops but between my fellow organic fahmers and the conservation land/community gardens type of places, i got a good feedback. If i only could grow them hives that fast.
No one asking for $5000 in return or half th ehoney though. i am sorely dissapointed. But, a while back a lady asked me if i'd pay for the bees i would remove from a hollow tree in her back yard. She did not understand when i told her i usually charge for my services !! :roll:
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Hi all
I'd be interested in approaching community gardens but they're town-owned. I was told by one local CSA that rents a town-owned farm that they were interested in bees but doubted the town would want the liability. Anyone run into this sort of thing? thanks
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Looking for nonpaying yards is fine (as in the #2 option). But paying to keep your bees on traditional farming operations with the risks of chemicals, constant mowing, and large tracts of land planted in useless plants for bees, while expecting to PAY for such sites, is as bad as you can get.
No kidding! I wonder about finding yards/property that borders wetlands, wild areas, natural park-type areas...
One of the best places I have found are gravel pits - the large country ones I mean. they are loaded with honey plants, and the ones I know are usually working only one little area for sand or gravel out of hundreds of acres. They berm up all around and those berms inevitably get full of sweet clover, milkweed, blueweed, sumacs etc - all stuff that helps to stabilize the soil and feed the bees! All pits get spent areas too where nothing can be extracted, and those areas get over run by honey plants too - great to see acres of bloom succeeding one another!
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I would try looking up organic farms, strawberry farms, blueberry, or any other farm that needs pollination. They need pollinator and usually need to pay for them. They will be very happy if someone is looking for a free place.
Otherwise I would ask this guy how much honey he wants. Explain to him what it takes to get that much honey. Offer him/her a certain amounts then to sell amounts larger.
I would think a gallon or two of honey would make most people happy. Farmers are usually pretty friendly from my experience here. Thankfully I dont have to pay anything because I have lots of land in the family at my disposal. That said I have sold bees to two veggie farmers and one said he would be happy to let me keep bees there but I just dont need another yard so I dont use it. If there are any orchards, veggie farms............... I would give them a call. Hopefully there is good land around them for honey.
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I simply asked if they would like some bees to help pollinate and they were happy to allow us to place all we wanted. We ended up with three hives there from splits we had done. It turned out to be a great location with a nice early spring flow. We pulled one full super from this spot with the most beautiful light colored honey. The homeowner gladly accepted a rent payment of one quart for the use of the spot. She wanted local honey for her allergies and you can't get more local than your own backyard. In fact when I went to pull them out to take them home they really wanted them to stay. Very bad fall flow there and boxes were light. Brought them home to fatten them up on Goldenrod.
He asked if we could place more there next spring.
As a side note we attempted to get them started keeping bees themselves and got them a package through our club. When the package failed, I made them a five frame nuc with a good queen and gave it to them just to keep them interested in bees.
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That's a great story, jhs!
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I am relatively new to beekeeping, but have 6 hives in the following locations
1. 2 hives at my house in the middle of town
2. 2 hives on 5 acres located in the middle of a large suburban town with very large homes surrounding it with very high end landscaping....paying one gallon of honey a year to landowner
3. 2 hives on 40 acres withing 2 miles of a walmart, lowes, homedepot garden centers and large additions with large houses and high end landscaping.....no payment...the owner has a 4 acre peach orchard and wants the bees there for pollination.
I don't know what my yields will be, but feel very optimistic...and the hives are very strong going into winter.
So, my total outlay of yard rent is one gallon of honey......but, I am hoping for a nice yield and willing to give more for a Christmas gift to the owners.
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I would like to see what that peach flow is like myself?
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I made a deal with a local part time farmer. He paid for all the new equipment and package bees, & I supplied the work with the bees. The first two years were a bust with 2 hives not making it through the winter. This past year, we got 8 lb. of honey from one hive. I have 2 strong hives going into this winter and expect to double last year's take. Considering that I am 62 years old & new at this, and the farmer knows and understands this, I gees I can't complain too much. I have learned a lot without spending a dime of my own money.
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I guess it's because I'm in the country, but I've had a couple people ask me to put them out on their place. I didn't say no but I did tell them I won't forget if I wind up with too many bees.
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New Old Guy
You walked into a real deal there. Hope you do better this year.
No matter how you look at it you got nothing to lose.
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Call your county agriculture department. They should be able to help place some hives.
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Bee happy, same here. I get two or three calls a year from people who want hives. So far I have only done a few with mixed results. No problems with the people, though.
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First off you need to understand something. You have a commodity that is in demand and it should not be sold short. You DO NOT PAY to place your bees but rather get paid. Yes it is nice to give small landowners honey for being allowed to place some hives. However if you live in cropland you should either be paid or do it for free, your choice. This kind of thing sticks in the craw of those of us who farm for a living. When hobbyists raise livestock and then sell for low prices they undermine the farm economy. Back to the bees, NEVER pay to put them someplace. I'm not too sure how polite I would be in refusing to pay to place hives, especially at $5000.
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skatesailer, agreed 100%. I feel the same way about folks doing free bee removals. Before the lid blows off I'm not going argue the point and quite frankly the free swarm removals are fine by me because I can't get to all of them it's the cut outs where I carry insurance and am a carpenter/home builder and skilled in that specialty that gets my goat.
JMO, but all of us that have or keep bees have put in alot of time and effort to aquire the knowledge and skill to do so and their should be a reward for every part of our applied knowledge.
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I think we should be doing free swarm removals if they are close by and not out of the ordinary circumstances. We need to keep the image of the friendly beekeeper and friendly honeybees and not the pest swarms cast off from the beekeepers that then have the guts to charge for their removal.
Of course I dont feel that the latter is the right mind set but I can easily see people feeling that way if they see a hundred colonies a mile from their place and then are told if they want a swarm removed it will cost them $150.00. If you expect ordinary folk to offer their land freely for honey production I dont think you want to charge their neighbors to have swarms removed.
I think we are all lucky that honeybees have been given a warm welcome by the press lately. I dont think the average folk gave a crap about beekeepers problems tens years ago and could have gave a crap less if you had a spot to keep them. People still worry about getting stung no matter how nice you say they are. I picked up one yard for nothing last summer from a farmer in a real nice location for free. I had another one to put bees on too until he informed his wife and she had a cow over the possibility of her grandchildren being attract by them.
Im not trying to start a battle here, thats just the way I feel about it myself.
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Bee nuts, that's exactly why I have no issue with swarm removal. Exellant opportunity to get a beek in front of the general public for good PR and education. Most swarm removals also do not stray to far into areas my business covers such as ladder work on roofs and/or structural repairs. It is the guys that do not carry insurance to protect the public from their actions nor hold specific state and local licenses to perform their services that I have issues with. There is a line that can be crossed and that is the only issue I have.
Honeybees are but a small portion of my business and what I really would like to see is a way to get the PCOs and NWCOs out of the hose them and cash the check mentality. I want to reach out and work with my local beeks as I have but two options. Save every swarm and cut out and get inundated with boxes in the yard and swamped with a sideline hobby that could detract from my main business enterprise or work with beeks (and possibly add a small source of revenue to offset the additional costs) to move these swarms and cut outs back into the keeper community. I tend to see the glass half full option and hope this will be a viable business option.
Whatever happens, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with beeks as I have far bigger fish to fry. Just ask me about the PCOs doing wildlife without a license or the live market coyote guys operating in my area.
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Beekeepers have been doing cutouts, swarm removal and other services for the public for years. Make that HUNDREDS of years.
Can anyone show me one example of a beekeeper screwing the public, getting sued, or any other justification being suggested that the homeowners "need protected" from the beekeepers actions?
Figures it would be a few pest control people coming here suggesting that beekeepers need to carry insurance to provide a basic services and the need for the public to protect themselves from those nasty and unscrupulous beekeepers.
I'm sure the tow truck drivers feel the same way about me giving someone a jump for their dead battery. Or pulling them out of a ditch.
It figures some are part of the government's intrusive agenda on free trade and markets, justifying it that one group needs protected from another. This perpetuation that everybody needs certified, licensed, and regulated for every possible thing is absurd. And I question those that promote it, justify, and are part of that system.
I hear of MANY more complaints and shady dealings from certified pest control people over charging and doing crappy work. Never heard that about a beekeeper.
So yes, we should demand reasonable protection from money grubbing sticky fingered pest control guys that charge old ladies $400 dollars to walk around for 15 minute spraying nasty chemicals everywhere.
Leave the beekeepers alone. they provide a service, whether free or otherwise, and from what I see, are not ripping anyone off.
Sounds to me as if a few people are trying to protect their own interest, disguised as mumbo jumbo wishy washy double talk. And I am actually surprised someone would come to a bee forum and crap on beekeepers by suggesting the public needs insurance from these folks because they need protection from beekeepers.
David, You come here and make false allegations against someone you don't like because among other things, Billy did not join your association. Now you crap on beekeepers. Who's next? :roll:
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I think we should be doing free swarm removals if they are close by and not out of the ordinary circumstances. We need to keep the image of the friendly beekeeper and friendly honeybees and not the pest swarms cast off from the beekeepers that then have the guts to charge for their removal.
Of course I don't feel that the latter is the right mind set but I can easily see people feeling that way if they see a hundred colonies a mile from their place and then are told if they want a swarm removed it will cost them $150.00. If you expect ordinary folk to offer their land freely for honey production I don't think you want to charge their neighbors to have swarms removed.
Are you saying you know that this happening? That homeowners are paying $150 dollars for a swarm removal a mile from a commercial operation with a hundred hives.
I know I get at least 50% of my swarms from the very farmer with my bees or their neighbors. I have never charged.
I can honestly say I never heard of this ever happening.
For swarms not next door to my operations, I always ask the homeowners "Do you know where the nearest beekeeper is around here?". They almost NEVER know of any beekeepers in the area.
So while it's nice to bring this all up, I'm not convinced that any suggestions of beekeepers charging for swarms across the street (or a mile away) from their location, is actually true.
Again, I'm not sure what beekeepers you have around you, but please feel free to give a few examples. I think suggesting that beekeepers are charging $150 dollars to collect swarms from their own hives a bit denigrating, and perhaps unfounded.
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Bjorn, believe it or not it is true. Maybe not for retrieving your own swarms from commercial operations but right here in GA we have master beeks (that specialize in nothing but honey bees) that provide swarm removal and cut outs and charge just like the professionals that they are.
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Bjorn, believe it or not it is true. Maybe not for retrieving your own swarms from commercial operations but right here in GA we have master beeks (that specialize in nothing but honey bees) that provide swarm removal and cut outs and charge just like the professionals that they are.
I'm not sure the point, counterpoint, or what your making true.
That beekeepers charge for services rendered? So what?
You seemingly feel that for beekeepers to collect a swarm for free...that is ok.
To charge for a swarm collection....not ok.
To climb a ladder...that infringes upon your territory and you think one must be licensed and the public must be "protected" from beekeepers.
Nobody is denying that beekeepers collect swarms, do cutouts, climb ladders, and even get paid for services rendered. So what is your point?
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My point is that the guy who without a business license, trapping license (if applicable), wildlife control permit (if applicable), pesticide applicators license (if applicable), federal tax id, state articles of incorporation, general liability insurance, commercial vehicle insurance, worker's compensation insurance, membership in state and national trade associations, continuing education and all the other mandatory items to conduct business as a for profit corporation or sole proprietor is undercutting me and my brethren with unfair trade practices.
Now that said beeks are the very least of my worries I have far more issues with the Pest Control Operators trapping wildlife without either trapping licenses and wildlife control permits (yet I can not walk on their side of the street at all unless I become one of them with PCO licensing), fur trappers thinking wildlife control is just a fun hobby that can be done in the city (an entirely different set of conditions than farmer Bob's back forty in the middle of nowhere), live market coyote guys invading the suburbs trapping for free, USFW Wildlife Services using their muscle and clout to shove aside the private sector, lack of manpower and enforcement within the DNR to effectively regulate my industry to insure that all play by the rules, the threatened take over of the industry by the national pest management associations and their paid off lackeys in the Dept of Ag, interference by the local animal control officers who for the most part are closet PETA members, the active and always dangerous HSUS and their comrades in arms that the ignorant keep electing to office.
My only contention that I would stress upon beeks is to please consider the possible consequences of one's actions. Their is a huge difference between being invited on the property of another to shake down a low hanging swarm at no charge and climbing on a roof and chopping into a wall to remove an established colony for a fee. The former is a fine endeavor and should be encouraged as long as the general public will allow it. The latter enters into an area better covered by a contractual business relationship. The grey area between the two being the fee for services. Just something for all to consider.
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Then don't sugar coat it.
It's not about your heart felt concern of another person. In fact, you have shown no real second thought of coming on here and trashing others.
And it's not about some unfounded concerns of homeowners being ripped off by beekeepers.
It comes down to your protection of your business and the undercutting for services of you and your...how did you say that..."your brethren"
And you think coming to a bee forum, throwing around all your "You need a license for this" and" "a certificate for that" while openly admitting you have a problem with those undercutting your prices, while suggesting the public needs "protection" from beekeepers, is honestly going to be taken well?
Typical scenario.....pest control people trying to scare the jeebees out of others by suggesting they need to consider liability, and all they could lose, by doing a cutout, or climbing a ladder.
I asked once already. Show me one example, of not a pesticide guy getting undercut, but an example of a beekeeper being sued or doing inferior work? You can't do it. Making your whole comment, nothing more than a self protection dialog designed to scare other people. You can side step it all you want with mentioning of animals, foxes, etc. But your on a bee forum, talking to beekeepers.
And if ever a day does come along, that a beekeeper does get sued, it will be once again by a pest control person, protecting their "turf". It's been done before. And if by chance it is a homeowner, it will probably be with some pest control guy standing in the background egging it on.
Beekeepers being turned in by pest control people has a long history too it. And at least for me, I don't appreciate a pest control guy coming here and making the suggestions that you have made. I think people can see through your comments.
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Beekeepers have been doing cutouts, swarm removal and other services for the public for years. Make that HUNDREDS of years.
Can anyone show me one example of a beekeeper screwing the public, getting sued, or any other justification being suggested that the homeowners "need protected" from the beekeepers actions?
Figures it would be a few pest control people coming here suggesting that beekeepers need to carry insurance to provide a basic services and the need for the public to protect themselves from those nasty and unscrupulous beekeepers.
I'm sure the tow truck drivers feel the same way about me giving someone a jump for their dead battery. Or pulling them out of a ditch.
It figures some are part of the government's intrusive agenda on free trade and markets, justifying it that one group needs protected from another. This perpetuation that everybody needs certified, licensed, and regulated for every possible thing is absurd. And I question those that promote it, justify, and are part of that system.
I hear of MANY more complaints and shady dealings from certified pest control people over charging and doing crappy work. Never heard that about a beekeeper.
So yes, we should demand reasonable protection from money grubbing sticky fingered pest control guys that charge old ladies $400 dollars to walk around for 15 minute spraying nasty chemicals everywhere.
Leave the beekeepers alone. they provide a service, whether free or otherwise, and from what I see, are not ripping anyone off.
Sounds to me as if a few people are trying to protect their own interest, disguised as mumbo jumbo wishy washy double talk. And I am actually surprised someone would come to a bee forum and crap on beekeepers by suggesting the public needs insurance from these folks because they need protection from beekeepers.
David, You come here and make false allegations against someone you don't like because among other things, Billy did not join your association. Now you crap on beekeepers. Who's next? :roll:
:jerry: :jerry: nice shooting -RDY-B
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I finally agree with bjorn's abrasiveness.
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Okay, so you want the gloves off approach then.
1. I am not nor do I intend to ever be a "pest control guy". I have in the past been one at least as far as stinging insects go (to include honey bees). I have sprayed my last honey bee and will never do it again! Please do not think this is some sort plea for forgiveness because it ain't. It's personal and I'll leave it at that. I, too, love the ladies and am ashamed of what I have done.
2. Bjorn, for whatever sadistic reason you have a bent to pick apart and assault any who may present themselves as a target for your twisted pleasure irregardless of their original intent.
3. At no time have I urged that bee keepers not offer their services to the general public. This is for the complete and total benefit of all involved. The bee keeper, the bees and most of all the public at large. I actually seek to recruit beeks to my industry in whatever capacity they may wish to contribute, the same as I would vetrinarians, biologists, researchers and any other profession or interest that may add to my industry's skills and knowledge.
4. Yes, indeed, it is about my concern for my fellow human beings that I desire this. The baseless and false slander you accuse me of makes me want to reach through cyberspace and slap the stink off of you. You have no idea what I see daily in the trenches. The fraud and deceit practiced by so many in business today is appalling at the least, and criminal in principal. At no time have I, nor have I ever been given reason to, intimated that beekeepers as a lot or in the individual are engaged in this behavior.
5. Yes, I must admit I do have a base desire to improve my profit/loss statement but then again I would expect the very same out of each and every beek on this site that has ever sold a jar of honey. Shoot me I'm guilty as charged.
6. Referencing statement number four, it is through the "raising of the bar" rather than restriction of entry that I intend to acheive the goal of statement number five. I have learned a long time past that bitching and moaning accomplishes nothing and to worry as to the conduct of others removes my focus from me and what I do best. You have heard, I would imagine, that a rising tide raises all ships?
7. I am here by choice on a beekeeper site because that is what I am, in addition to my other sins. Granted I am not a commercial, pollination, sideliner or any of the other definitions that we like to divide ourselves into. I am sorry if the almighty, Bjorn, feels that I do not have a place at this table but stay I will until shown the door. In the meantime it is my heartfelt desire that I may be able to contribute what little I may to the beekeeping community.
8. On this forum and others I have seen credible information submitted by you yet I also must discredit almost all of it in it's entirity due to the method in which it is delivered, consider that.
9. If any on this site or any other has any cause for concern with me personally or my open and willfully stated opinions I am available at anytime day or night, my informtion and contact numbers are openly displayed all across the worldwide web. Please do not hold back, call me and I will be glad to continue to express my opinions until you are either fully satisfied that I am either a stark raving lunatic or genuinely concerned with whatever it is that has irked my ire.
10. Bjorn, I am extremely sorry to have to disappoint you but you and your opinions are way below the horizon of my radar, quite frankly your not even big enough to be bait for the bigger fish I have to fry. Here in the south the term is piss ant.
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On the insurance issue. Maybe you do not keep up with industry news but let me fill you in on some issues in the recent past.
Within the past twenty four months there have been two cases where small children have been killed by operators who in their minds had no wrongful intent.
One case in Utah a pest control technician applied phostoxin for the control of gophers in a yard. The fumes seeped into a home and killed two children.
In another case a homeowner attempting to curb a severe roach problem in her home used an excessive amount of OTC roach bombs and killed two of her own children.
No, these were not beekeepers but are just two examples of good intentions with fatal consequences. Nor would insurance truly ever hope to "restore" these families. I would strongly hope that beeks, plumbers, auto mechanics and other assorted and sundry past times would take a very careful look at all of the many variables that could cause unforeseen consequences and wisely decide to provide some level of insurance to restore any victims of those unforeseen incidents.
This does not mean that beeks or any other hobbiest should be mandated to do anything. Just use some common sense when your out and about.
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great post David-there are concerns about territory(not to mention qualifications) whether keepers or pco or nwco
And it seams that there are many Hidden agendas when people are going after the big fish
and the subject gets very complicated -at-least in my state-Im sure you read this but it makes good background RDY-B
http://www.ca-wco.org/fight-1.htm (http://www.ca-wco.org/fight-1.htm)
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personally I think this has gone long enough, beemaster can you squash this subject? I come here to read and get help not to read people bicker like two school girls.
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rdy-b, I followed the Merrifield case pretty closely. You think thats bad check out Florida's regs. They have suffered a complete takeover by the PCOs and bats chiroptera are now are legally rodents under Florida law. FYI, bats are carnivores and not rodents. Florida will be overturned as soon as someone steps up to the plate and takes it to court.
Sad thing is that this may have to play out on a state by state basis as here in GA we have some in the Dept of Ag that take their cues from the PCOs and like what they see in FL.
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ronwhite, don't go crying now you stepped in it too.
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10. Bjorn, I am extremely sorry to have to disappoint you but you and your opinions are way below the horizon of my radar, quite frankly your not even big enough to be bait for the bigger fish I have to fry. Here in the south the term is piss ant.
This piss-ant, stands by his opinion. :-D
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rdy-b, I followed the Merrifield case pretty closely. You think thats bad check out Florida's regs. They have suffered a complete takeover by the PCOs and bats chorister are now are legally rodents under Florida law. FYI, bats are carnivores and not rodents. Florida will be overturned as soon as someone steps up to the plate and takes it to court.
Sad thing is that this may have to play out on a state by state basis as here in GA we have some in the Dept of Ag that take their cues from the PCOs and like what they see in FL.
kinda makes me proud to be in california -Heres the salute- :lol: ;)
http://www.ca-wco.org/Remains.htm (http://www.ca-wco.org/Remains.htm)
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Are you saying you know that this happening? That homeowners are paying $150 dollars for a swarm removal a mile from a commercial operation with a hundred hives.
I know I get at least 50% of my swarms from the very farmer with my bees or their neighbors. I have never charged.
I can honestly say I never heard of this ever happening.
For swarms not next door to my operations, I always ask the homeowners "Do you know where the nearest beekeeper is around here?". They almost NEVER know of any beekeepers in the area.
So while it's nice to bring this all up, I'm not convinced that any suggestions of beekeepers charging for swarms across the street (or a mile away) from their location, is actually true.
Again, I'm not sure what beekeepers you have around you, but please feel free to give a few examples. I think suggesting that beekeepers are charging $150 dollars to collect swarms from their own hives a bit denigrating, and perhaps unfounded.
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No I am not saying I know of people charging money for swarm removals. I was just giving an example of what I think would be the wrong thing to do and I thought that was obvious. I was under the impression by a previous poster that we should not be doing anything for free. I hope most beeks are collecting swarms from neighbored properties as fast and free as they can.
I do know of a commercial beek near me who gets swarm calls all summer and does not collect them cause they told me so. I dont think they give beeks numbers to call either cause if they did then they might not need to buy bees from them. If they called me I would go get every one I could for free, paying for my own gas and whatever else. I certainly would not need to buy any more bees though and Im sure thats why I dont end up with the calls.
When we start charging for swarm removals then people will see bees kept on their place as a liability. I think even cutouts should be done without charging for labor. If not then they might as well just poison them. If people are willing to pay for materials and save the bees, then we have won the P.R. battle and thats a good thing.
I agree with you about the insurance. But to be careful the home owner and beekeeper should sign a liability waiver document waving all rights to sue over damages, stings, falling off a latter and breaking a leg or whatever. We dont need insurance, we need good old decency and respect.
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All I can say is I hope any government local, state or fed does not get their fingers in the pie and start regulating everything when it comes to beekeeping. Can you imagine if you needed to get a permit by providing prof of insurance before you could removed a swarm?
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All I am saying is this topic is no longer "what do you Pay for a beeyard." Yes I threw in a snide comment towards both of you, bjorn being abrasive always and you being a "wildlife specialist." sorry about the humor, thought I would lighten the mood...
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All I can say is I hope any government local, state or fed does not get their fingers in the pie and start regulating everything when it comes to beekeeping. Can you imagine if you needed to get a permit by providing prof of insurance before you could removed a swarm?
I agree with this and your last post.
I am perhaps a bit sensitive when people start saying the public needs protection from beekeepers, or that we should be licensed or regulated in some form or another. I think the government (Federal, state and local) in many ways has stepped over it's boundary, while claiming to "protect" us. I think most can agree with way too much interference in individuals lives, yet it seems each little group that benefits in some way, is always talking about the next group.
And if you stand back and take notice, some laws and regulations are passed, after first starting as one group lobbying for, making false "this will protect the public", and is centered on protection of their own individual business. It's never is really about the supposed "harm" that was hyped up or the "safety" of the public. It's ALWAYS about the money!
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well i hope to get some out yards this year for just some honey have had several ask me to put bees on their place but then i live in a very rural area i just dont have enough bees yet to do this
as for charging for swarms around here most will do this for free / cut outs are a different story i have only done one but it took many hours and power tools hand tools and some construction knowledge and robo's great bee vac that took half a day to make
Dave
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All I can say is I hope any government local, state or fed does not get their fingers in the pie and start regulating everything when it comes to beekeeping. Can you imagine if you needed to get a permit by providing prof of insurance before you could removed a swarm?
I agree with this and your last post.
I am perhaps a bit sensitive when people start saying the public needs protection from beekeepers, or that we should be licensed or regulated in some form or another. I think the government (Federal, state and local) in many ways has stepped over it's boundary, while claiming to "protect" us. I think most can agree with way too much interference in individuals lives, yet it seems each little group that benefits in some way, is always talking about the next group.
And if you stand back and take notice, some laws and regulations are passed, after first starting as one group lobbying for, making false "this will protect the public", and is centered on protection of their own individual business. It's never is really about the supposed "harm" that was hyped up or the "safety" of the public. It's ALWAYS about the money!
I should let this thread die but the above does not accurately represent my arguement. At no time have I ever espoused that anyone needed to be "protected" from beeks. On the contrary, I actively seek to recruit beeks to my industry for the protection of the BEES. If not the PCOs and untrained NWCOs will do with the bees as they will and the bottom line dictates, read that to mean "treat" them.
Now as to the actual regulation that I desire. What I seek is a basic level of competency within MY INDUSTRY and a means to either bar from service or remove from service those that fail to abide by basic ethical and legal considerations. It is those bad apples that I seek to "protect the public" from.
If we had a basic and simple level of competency to meet then you would not hear a peep from me but in my state as in most the industry is completely and totally UNREGULATED. Back in the day I would have said this is a good thing and to let CAVEAT EMPTOR rule the day. As a matter of fact I am still of that philosophical bent yet after repeatedly seeing the horrors, deceits and lies being foisted off on the general public on a daily basis something has to give. At this time all I can hope to do is to cry in the wilderness until the time comes that some of us can find a receptive audience. Until then I shall endeavour to set the bar myself in my personal and professional actions and hope my colleagues will do the same.
Nuff said
PS Bjorn, after much consideration I feel that I have wronged you in some of my more scathing comments. For that I sincerely apologize. I still disagree with many of your points and do not always care for the way they are made but I shall try to not let it sink to the personal next time.
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David McLeod
I can understand you reasoning on the cutouts but I am not a fan of the government being everyones mommy and daddy. People should be liable for there decisions. If they trust someone with no knowledge of who they are without a contract of any kind, then dont go crying to mommy about it when you get burned.
All people involved in skilled trades like carpentry, roofing, carpet, and on and on should have one type of regulation provided by their government that would be of much larger benefit to you and the rest of us. That is to stop illegal immigrants from taking a large chunk of the honest work for honest wages away from you, me and others. The line that nobody else wants to do the work is a line of crap. Nobody wants to do it for ten dollars an hour. If that was done, you would be able to get and honest days pays and plenty of it.
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... the guy who without a business license, trapping license (if applicable), wildlife control permit (if applicable), pesticide applicators license (if applicable), federal tax id, state articles of incorporation, general liability insurance, commercial vehicle insurance, worker's compensation insurance, membership in state and national trade associations, continuing education and all the other mandatory items to conduct business ...
When I read this paragraph, what leapt out at me was not any problem with beekeepers, but rather a problem with our culture and government. How did the tentacles of bureaucracy insinuate themselves into so many facets of our lives? Why do we need permission for almost anything we do? Why do we tolerate that in "the land of the free and the home of the brave"?
Back on topic: I put a couple nice-looking copper-top hives in friend's suburban backyard to take advantage of some huge black locust trees. I give them an occasional slab of comb honey. They enjoy suiting up with me and taking peeks inside now and then. Once I put on 'full body armor' and took care of a yellow jacket nest in their attic for them. That seems to be more than enough "rent" for them. Several other people who have become aware of our informal arrangement have said that they'd like to have hives on their property. If there was ever a hint of discontent, let alone a demand for money or half the crop, I'd move my hives.
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Be very careful. Some non-beekeeping farmers and nursery owners don't realize the cost that goes into a hive. All they see is free honey to try to sell themselves at their nursery or farm. The "free pollination" approach is best!
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My point is that the guy who without a business license, trapping license (if applicable), wildlife control permit (if applicable), pesticide applicators license (if applicable), federal tax id, state articles of incorporation, general liability insurance, commercial vehicle insurance, worker's compensation insurance, membership in state and national trade associations, continuing education and all the other mandatory items to conduct business as a for profit corporation or sole proprietor is undercutting me and my brethren with unfair trade practices.
you know i love you, dear, but this is BS on the highest order. i don't do a lot of cutouts (none this year) but those i do, i do for free with a donation to the gas tank accepted. why? because i do outbuildings, little old ladies, farms, etc. 9 out of 10 times they have called all over the place and either can't fine anyone willing to do a removal, or will charge so much they can't afford it. i happen to enjoy doing them when i have time. i like the people i meet. i usually get fed and the donations are pretty generous. i tear things up and pull out bees. they put things back together when i'm done. works for both of us. it's a hobby for me, not a job.
i understand that some people think doing this free is dumb, but there are only two of us in the area who will tackle these jobs. he can take the money makers. fine with me. he has more than he can do in any one year. pest control? they refer to me. they don't want to touch the honeybee removals.