Comb attached to the sides of top bar hives

[SlickMick]

From the many images I have seen that are of the bottom of Warre hives or of the top bar removed with a full comb, it appeare that the comb is not usually attached by the bees to the side of the box and is left free hanging from the top bar. I have also noticed this also on horizontal hives.

I am building a Warre hive and it is part of the regulations here that hives must have removable frames. If it is usual for the bees to build their comb free from the walls of the hive then I expect that I won't need side bars suspended from the top bar. I would expect that this would make the top bar removable but it would be debatable if the comb was consistently attached to the sides of the hive.

Is anyone able to tell me what I could expect?

Mick

[little john]

From the many images I have seen that are of the bottom of Warre hives or of the top bar removed with a full comb, it appeare that the comb is not usually attached by the bees to the side of the box and is left free hanging from the top bar.
[..]
Is anyone able to tell me what I could expect?

Mick

Lj

[BeeMaster2]

It depends on the bees. Some connect to the walls on every frame and some do not. I have 7 out of 8 frames in my observation hive that are foundationless. When I take it apart, I have to bee very careful not to turn the frames the wrong way because they are not attached, none of them. I have done a lot of removals and most of the time they are attached to the sides.
Just have a ling knife handy to cut them free.
Do not turn them flat/horizontal. The newer they are the easier they break.
Jim

[SlickMick]

Many thanks, Little John, for the pic.. It clarifies things so clearly.

And, Sawdstmakr, I appreciate your input and welcome advice.

Mick

[little john]

Hello Mick

I'm sorry if this has been a disappointment for you. That picture was of someone else's Warre box - but I think it speaks volumes ...

In case it's of interest, these are shots of my own experiment with Warre hives (actually, Russian 'Alpine' Hives which have a box depth of 108mm - so I clamped 2 of those together for a test), a few years ago.

As you can see, the amount of vertical attachment is almost zero - but that's not due to the wires of the Delon frames (as I'd hoped), but are due to the presence of top bars below those combs.




And here's exactly the same story as the picture I posted yesterday:



So - in my (limited) experience even the use of wire frames will not stop horizontal attachment. The bees just build around them. In some Russian videos, it appears that they have found a way of somehow preventing horizontal attachment, but it isn't clear from the videos exactly how they do that, and there's a huge language barrier in the way of my finding out from them.

But for me, that experiment was over - for if I can't lift combs easily, then such hives are unfortunately a non-starter. I say 'unfortunately' because the bees very clearly loved living within that narrow chimney-like structure, and both of the colonies I experimented with thrived within them.

So - best of luck with your plans - sorry to have been the bearer of bad tidings.

LJ

[BeeMaster2]

"And, Sawdstmakr, I appreciate your input and welcome advice.

Mick"

Any time Mick.

[chux]

As was stated, how much they attach to the sides will vary from colony to colony. I have some that build out nearly every inch of a foundationless deep frame, while others only attach the sides at one or two points on each side. Many don't attach the bottom at all. So, I must be a little more careful with how I manipulate the frames. I saw plans and a video somewhere on-line for folks building top-bars, and then running a length of bamboo or thin wood strip through from one end to the other. It hung down in a wide loop. The bees were supposed to attach the comb to the "frame." I'm thinking it's just easier to throw a foundationless frame in there. I don't see negatives other than a slight cost increase. 

[little john]

Although the thread header is entitled 'Top Bar Hives' - the OP is actually in the process of building a Warre hive.

Combs
The combs may be moveable or fixed. They are referred to as moveable when they are enclosed in a wooden frame, as in modern hives. But we should note well that they only really remain moveable on condition that they are cleaned every year.
Combs are described as fixed when they are not surrounded by wood and because the bees fix them to the walls of the hive boxes. But because they are fixed with wax they are in fact more moveable than moveable combs fixed with propolis. We have preferred the fixed comb for several reasons ...

Beekeeping For All, 12th Ed., Emile Warre, translated by David Heaf, p.50.

There's an Aussie site: http://www.naturalbeekeeping.com.au/warrebeehives.html which shows the side bars which they use, presumably to comply with Aussie regulations. But - dunno why they've chosen a box size of 308 mm though - as that doesn't compute.

David Heaf has translated a section from Warre's 'Beekeeping For All, 5th Ed' which he's entitled 'Construction of the People's Hive with moveable frames', in which the interior measurements are 350mm x 350mm., to offset the space taken up by the woodwork of the frames. Copies of both Editions of 'Beekeeping For All' are available from a certain 'Barefoot' website.

LJ

[SlickMick]

I find the experiment of Little Johns of fixing two Russian Alpine hives together to emulate Warre hive boxes interesting primarily because I am intending to break the Warre mould by making super boxes around 150mm or less high to reduce the weight I have to lift when supering which I will do from the top as I used to do when I was using Langstroth hives a few years ago.

Interested to see the frames in the natural beekeeping link were using side bars only to overcome the removable frame requirement of our regs.

Mick

[Bush_84]

You can try side bars but in my experience of keeping warre hives is that no matter what the frames are never easy to remove. The typical horizontal tbh is easier with some care, but neither are easy.

[little john]

There's quite a bit of info on the web about using the Russian 'Alpine' Hive (so called, because it was modelled on Roger Delon's version of the Warre Hive - and he kept large numbers of them on the slopes of the Alps), especially videos - which show that the Russians use these 'Alpine' Hives in a conventional way - q/x's, supers, clearance boards, and all the rest ...

http://www.pchelhom.ru/index/0-4
http://pcela.rs/alpine_hive_1.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymS0seuO6OY


"Vladimir Khomich" is a useful keyword if you're googling for info.

A great pity there's a language barrier. If you know a Russian speaker it would be very handy.

LJ

[SlickMick]

Hey LJ, that is a simply amazing video! Apart from the sheer volume and scale of the operation, it is an interesting insight into Russian beekeeping notwithstanding the language barrier. The whole cycle of the beekeeping operation is revealed, from queen raising to equipment construction.

Because of my interest in top bar hives it seemed at first that a simple top bar was being used, then I became aware of something supporting the comb, then in the later stages of the clip it was revealed that the support was in fact a U shaped steel rod that is inserted into the top bar on each side. It makes me rethink the construction of the frames for my supers. I wonder if the wire stays clear of the box giving bee space or if the wire sits in those groves in the walls of the box which appear to act as a guide to the frame.

Another  point of interest  is the shape of the comb at the edges being tapered towards the wire frame. This could be a result of the grooves in the hive walls but the fact that the taper is there may help in arresting the development of the small hive beetle by eliminating the places it can hide from being chased by the bees, the space behind the frame side bars being a favourite refuge.

Once again LJ thanks for your input. Every beek should have a look at that video

Mick

[little john]

Hi Mick. Yes, good video - but think how much better it would be with subtitles !

I wonder if the wire stays clear of the box giving bee space or if the wire sits in those groves in the walls of the box which appear to act as a guide to the frame.

Perhaps the grooves (or 'fluting' as I call them) are indeed relevant, but in an earlier version of that video, most of the boxes didn't have the grooving/ fluting feature, and there didn't appear to be any obvious problems with attachment.

On considered reflection, I rather think that the wire itself may be something of a red herring. What I suspect is that it's the use of foundation which works well here, by providing a pre-defined boundary to the comb, which is approx one beespace from the wall, which of course is important. But although we see the wire, the bees don't seem to.
 
Then, once such a boundary has been established, the bees will concentrate only on building upon the mid-rib, thus increasing the thickness of the comb. But - when a comb is built without foundation, no pre-defined boundaries exist (except at the top), so the bees just keep building and building until an obstruction is reached, to which they will attach the comb if possible, or leave a beespace if not.

It'll be easy enough to test this theory - by allowing the bees to attach to the side walls when initially drawing foundationless comb, then remove those combs, trim 'em back to the wire, and scrape the walls clean. If I'm right, then they won't re-attach them.

I still have the hives and combs, so I'll try this out next spring.

LJ

[SlickMick]

Hi LJ

Do you know if anyone else has tried the wired frame? It would be interesting to know what their experience is. Perhaps someone on thIs forum is able to comment on using the "wired" frame without foundation ?

The wire  seems to be somewhere around 3mm dia, possibly black steel that has been cleaned or galvanised. I wonder if that is important. Its use would take a lot of hassle out of making frames!

Mick

[little john]

Hello Mick

No-one else that I know of. I used 2.5mm galvanised fencing wire as I have several hundred metres of that size on site - but 3mm would be preferable, imo.

LJ