What would you have done?

[Scadsobees]

You did what you could in the situation.

It is cheaper too to have somebody spray it, and then pay one of the regular workers to  chop out the comb and repair if needed.

Another thing: Liability
Unless you do cutouts professionally, you probably aren't bonded and insured.  Most places won't risk that.

Cutouts are something that I did for free...once.  Now I'd rather not do them paid or not.  Businesses could care less about saving some bees, and most homeowners don't understand why you'd charge 100 or $200 or more to do a cutout when you are getting valuable bees out of the deal.

Rick

[tlynn]

Thanks for all the energy put into this thread everyone.  I think the bottom line lesson I take is how important our role as educators is.

 

[Kathyp]

Businesses could care less about saving some bees, and most homeowners don't understand why you'd charge 100 or $200 or more to do a cutout when you are getting valuable bees out of the deal.

i think you are correct.  i am fortunate to live in a rural/agricultural/tree hugger, area.  i get calls from farms when the pollination bees swarm, and from farms that have had swarms they missed last year, start to bug them this year out in the barn wall.  a few homes, but most of those have not worked out for one reason or another...usually because they have already tried spray....and last year, tons of swarm calls.  more than i could take and we have lots of people listed in this area.  we all got maxed out.

longest one i did last year was a barn that took + 3 hours, but gave me 2 really nice hives. shortest was a swarm that the people had already collected in a box and was waiting for me on the front lawn!  :-)  gotta love green people!

[KONASDAD]

I guess what I'm saying, what are beekeepers doing on a local, county or state level to educate, provide the information, and change the practice of bees being killed? Except for a few areas, most of the times...nothing. We are reactive...not proactive.

Just the way I see it....

Lots of truth. Its hard to find a beek to do cutouts. My club does attempt to eductae organizations on how to deal with swarms and cutouts. We have a downloadable tri-fold, we will be speaking to an extermination company as part of inhouse raing for them. but Bjorn is right. Its hard work, many only want eye level hanging swarms and the bees are often questionable.

Cant save all the bees. I personally try to do as much educating as possible, get to the ones I can and close my eyes to the rest.

[David LaFerney]

...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.

Wow, I bet that was a bad day.  What's the story on that?

[rast]

 Having bees in Fl., Understudy's soapbox was great! I'll bet that you would have found bees from Africa on the slave ships in the 1800's.
 Disney World, for all its claim to be enviormentally friendly, kills every swarm of honeybees it finds. The claim is they found AHB there. This is from a reliable inside source. They also use that chemical that is absorbed through the roots and makes the entire plant poisonous.
 Do I want to tackle a hive of AHB unprotected, heck no. Do I want to tackle a hive of queenless EHB unprotected, heck no. Do I want every swarm killed because they might be AHB, heck no.
 What the heck, I may be an alien and need to killed and then checked for DNA.

[Brian D. Bray]

...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.

Wow, I bet that was a bad day.  What's the story on that?

I've posted the story a few times on the forum already, look around for bee sting stories.  It was a horrible day with bees when I was 14.

[tlynn]

Brendhan, after having a bit more time to fully read your post, I believe you're right on.  I see the AHB issue like air travel.  When a crash happens it's a riveting story, which for the media is all about the ratings and readership.  All that drama makes flying look like one risky proposition, regardless of the statistics people may read.  And of course driving on I-95 to MIA or the 405 to LAX is a heck of a lot more dangerous than getting on a plane.  We get a stinging death and it's front page and top of the hour news for 3 or 4 days.  What people don't get is simple probability means they will never get attacked by bees.  There are millions of potentially risky bee encounter activities going on every day - mowing the yard, repairing the siding, reading the meter, throwing away your soda bottle in the park trash can, pets digging around in the yard, and so on.  And with probably similar frequency as lottery winners, somebody will be in the wrong place at the wrong time and disturb a hive and the whole thing quickly will cascade out of control and they get hospitalized or killed.   

From what I have read about South American beekeepers, they seem to have adapted well to AHB and are happy with the resilience and productivity of their colonies.  I would imagine we too will learn to live with and manage them.  It may present some challenges, one for hobbyist beekeepers like me who choose to keep bees in highly populated places.  Now I can mow right around my hives and bring friends over for back yard gatherings without generating any interest.  I wonder what AHBs would do??

One curiosity I have, from an evolutionary biology perspective, is how long the aggressive genes will continue to be selected for, since I would suspect they don't have the level of predation in the new world they experience in Africa.  If there are fewer hive destruction events then there won't be as many of the nastiest hives to survive over the gentler ones, assuming the most aggressive hives tend to more likely fend off a fatal blow.  So you should end up with more surviving less aggressive colonies that would dilute the aggressive genes over time.  Because in nature things just don't happen for the heck of it. Aggressive genes will not stick around if there is no reason for them.  But it may well take hundreds and more probably thousands of years for that transition to happen on its own.

[tlynn]

...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.

Wow, I bet that was a bad day.  What's the story on that?

I've posted the story a few times on the forum already, look around for bee sting stories.  It was a horrible day with bees when I was 14.

Man, that sounds incredible.  I took 6 stings thru my shirt one day when one of my hives got hot (I was in there too long) and I thought that was pretty amazing.  I can't imagine.  Seems I remember a story of somebody on this site who was not in bee gear who intended to simply move a hive across the yard and the box came apart in his hands when he picked it up and he got hammered.   I think he said he was in shorts.

[David LaFerney]

...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.

Wow, I bet that was a bad day.  What's the story on that?

I've posted the story a few times on the forum already, look around for bee sting stories.  It was a horrible day with bees when I was 14.

I found it.  So other than not suiting up (I assume you weren't) did you do anything wrong, or was it more or less unavoidable?  I'm trying to figure the odds of ending up on the evening news.

[Understudy]

From what I have read about South American beekeepers, they seem to have adapted well to AHB and are happy with the resilience and productivity of their colonies.  I would imagine we too will learn to live with and manage them.  It may present some challenges, one for hobbyist beekeepers like me who choose to keep bees in highly populated places.  Now I can mow right around my hives and bring friends over for back yard gatherings without generating any interest.  I wonder what AHBs would do??

Some bees even EHB will tolerate it just fine. So will some AHB. Others weather they are AHB or EHB will go nuts. MB has talked about this on occasion. Hives have personalities. Some are more tolerant than others.

One curiosity I have, from an evolutionary biology perspective, is how long the aggressive genes will continue to be selected for, since I would suspect they don't have the level of predation in the new world they experience in Africa.  If there are fewer hive destruction events then there won't be as many of the nastiest hives to survive over the gentler ones, assuming the most aggressive hives tend to more likely fend off a fatal blow.  So you should end up with more surviving less aggressive colonies that would dilute the aggressive genes over time.  Because in nature things just don't happen for the heck of it. Aggressive genes will not stick around if there is no reason for them.  But it may well take hundreds and more probably thousands of years for that transition to happen on its own.

AHB genes tend to be dominant. Simply because they have been breeding naturally for a long time and they go after traits that are beneficial for them naturally. EHB have been breed with an interceding by man. It has not always been a bad thing. The buckfast bee is prime example of that. However it has gotten to a point where the genetics on most EHB are so poor that they are basically inbred and have lousy immune systems. They are coming out of the shallow end of the gene pool. Now you have these drone, they are from out of town, they dark mysterious figures, they were leather pants with ripped t-shirts that show off their muscles.  The virgin queen doesn't want to keep kissing her brother so who do you think she is inclined to mate with.

This is another reason AHB genes are so dominate. They are diverse. They don't represent the status quo. They represent something better. So when a queen is choosing sperm from the sacs she stores she is more likely to choose from them. Even if she is not AHB herself. Now does this create a dilution? Yes but only for a while. What it creates is hybrid but here is the thing that happens the hybrids mate with other hybrids. Whom have AHB genetics. Eventually you end up with a lot more AHB genes.

Think of it like this. Take two glasses one filled with Whiskey and one with coke. Pour half of the whiskey in another glass. Then give it half coke.  Repeat this process until you have 10 glasses with a 1/2 to 1/2 whiskey to coke mix. This will represent you new queen. She may be EHB but she mated with a bunch of make AHB drones. So her offspring are at best 50/50. Now the 50/50 queen goes out and mates with a bunch of AHB drones and some EHB drones. Now her offspring can end up 75/25. Take the glass of half whiskey and half coke and fill it up half way. If you add more whiskey to that you end up with that mix. Now you say but I want to add coke. Fine you can do that to two of the ten glasses but the rest get whiskey because it is dominate. You can keep doing that until you end up with a 99/1 mix. You may not even notice the water. There will always be some water but it may be so small that it doesn't really matter(In genetics it matters in drinks not so much). You end up with a hybrid that is basically an AHB offshot. The problem isn't they are inclined to be aggressive that is the mumbo jumbo that the media likes.

The problem is they ended up in the soffit of someone's house who has bought into all the hype and they are so afraid they are going to die that they don't know what to do with themselves. It also brings a moment of false drama into their otherwise mundane boring lives. Nothing like going to friends and telling them you where this close to death.  :-P

Bees EHB or AHB can be aggressive. The Madison avenue types managed to do a PR campaign that pretty much gave the aggressive title strictly to the AHB.

In order for there to be a dilution there would have to be more EHB drones that were suitable mating partners. And if your drones appear to virgin queens like the banjo player from the movie Deliverance chances are they are going to look elsewhere. So if you want to help with a dilution encourage more beekeepers. Buy queens in a diverse manner not always from the same guy. Even then realize bees in the wild are swarming three times more often than your nice bees. And realize that bad boys get the girls. The same applies to bees so look for drones that wear wifebeaters and have a I don't care  attitude.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Brian D. Bray]

...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.

Wow, I bet that was a bad day.  What's the story on that?

I've posted the story a few times on the forum already, look around for bee sting stories.  It was a horrible day with bees when I was 14.

I found it.  So other than not suiting up (I assume you weren't) did you do anything wrong, or was it more or less unavoidable?  I'm trying to figure the odds of ending up on the evening news.

I was fully suited up, smoker in hand, when I went into the hive.  I know I had 379 stings because I father counted them.  Made me woozy. 
Imbreeding can cause Italian bees to be as or more agressive than AHB.  The hive was very isolated from others and unattended for several years. prior to my being hired to "super it."  The were so tenacious they chased my 2 blocks down the street and I was melting bees off my clothes with hot blasts of flame from my smoker.

BTW, if some of what the South and Central American beekeepers are saying is true, it would appear that the AFB aggressiviness is limited to the 1st few generations of the hybrid cross after which they settle down to be pretty much as Italians with the exception of needong about twice as much smoke.

[Scadsobees]

BTW, if some of what the South and Central American beekeepers are saying is true, it would appear that the AFB aggressiviness is limited to the 1st few generations of the hybrid cross after which they settle down to be pretty much as Italians with the exception of needong about twice as much smoke.

That still sounds much more aggressive than I want in my yard :shock:!!!  If any bees come out and come after me or anybody, her majesty's beheading gets scheduled.....I like nice tender, docile bees that apologize for the inconvenience when I have to use a hive tool to crack the top open.

EHB or AHB- if they're even a little bit mean they are not allowed in my yard.

Rick

[BjornBee]

What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.

Thank you.

One of my goals this year, as I'm involved with setting up the state conference, and other speaking engagements, is to focus on ideas and solutions, that beekeepers can actually take back after the meeting, and use on a practical level, to either improve their operation, or set in motion some sort of plan. To many meetings I'm attending, are filled with microanalyses of some much repeated research or filled with so much useless "fluff" by dynamic speakers, but give little for the average beekeeper to actually use the day after.

I guess it equates to the scenario of 10 beekeepers all griping about the average homeowner killing bees, yet none of them are actually doing anything on an individual basis to change it. I'm not pointing out any particular person or discussion. I'm just suggesting there are many things we can do as an industry to improve beekeeping. I would love to see all states, all county clubs, and all beekeepers, and on a national scale...all come together once a year. Can you imagine the P.R., the good will, and the opportunity it could create, if thousands of beekeepers across the country, with all county clubs, would join together with open houses, picnics, or some other education programs all on the same day....open to the public.

I've mentioned this before. Oh well.....maybe one day.

[jdb1930]

2 years ago I would have wanted to kill them myself. I, like most people were afraid of bees. It wasn't until my brother had a swarm on his front porch that I found out anything about bees. The guy we talked to about them educated us about bees and since then I have tried to learn everything I can about bees. I will be up to 6 hives this year, and I educate everyone who is willing to listen about bees.

Education is our best weapon. People are afraid of what they do not understand and most people think that bees are the same as wasp or that bees are just out to attack anyone who gets near.

[tlynn]

What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.

 I would love to see all states, all county clubs, and all beekeepers, and on a national scale...all come together once a year. Can you imagine the P.R., the good will, and the opportunity it could create, if thousands of beekeepers across the country, with all county clubs, would join together with open houses, picnics, or some other education programs all on the same day....open to the public.

I've mentioned this before. Oh well.....maybe one day.

If it happened on that large a scale and especially on the same day the media attention would be big, probably national news.  Even though such coverage is only sound bites, that's how the public at large is going to become aware of the world of beekeeping.

[Understudy]

What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.

This is may sound good the problem is many though.
1. If you place an ad in the yellow pages it is expensive. Most associations can't afford even a small yellow pages ad.
2. If an association placed an ad in the pest control section they would have to have a license as a PCO. Most do not.
3. In our case that would be a direct violation of our charter. We are a club for beekeepers not a business. That separation is important. We are pursing a 501c3 it is kind of hard to be a non profit and a regular business. We have items in our bylaws that prevent this. And I understand and agree with them.

What would be a good alternative would be to allow beekeepers to place ads. If our members could place ads in the yellow pages in separate section from the exterminators. Like a bee or honeybee section and it could be done in a cost effective manner it would be an excellent idea.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[JP]

Brendhan, you guys need to have an exterminator who likes bees join your club, that will open some new doors for you and the club.


...JP

[tlynn]

What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.

This is may sound good the problem is many though.
1. If you place an ad in the yellow pages it is expensive. Most associations can't afford even a small yellow pages ad.
2. If an association placed an ad in the pest control section they would have to have a license as a PCO. Most do not.
3. In our case that would be a direct violation of our charter. We are a club for beekeepers not a business. That separation is important. We are pursing a 501c3 it is kind of hard to be a non profit and a regular business. We have items in our bylaws that prevent this. And I understand and agree with them.

What would be a good alternative would be to allow beekeepers to place ads. If our members could place ads in the yellow pages in separate section from the exterminators. Like a bee or honeybee section and it could be done in a cost effective manner it would be an excellent idea.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

I hear steady complaints from people about how they don't get much business from their yellow page ads anymore.  Go to a chamber meeting and that topic usually comes up.  Phone books are going the way of newspapers.  Everything's moving online.  Ask someone under 30 how much of their information they get from the internet.  At our association meetings, they usually have a few names of people who have swarms or cutouts, and those leads are received from our website.  If I need a product or service the internet is the first and usually only place I go.

Of course you have to have a way to drive traffic to your site.  If it's ranked well in the search engines then your advertising is free.  If not, then a properly constructed Google Adwords campaign targeted to your local area will drive traffic at a lot less cost than a yellow pages ad, charter violations notwithstanding.  I know Google restricts advertising for keywords like drug and medicine unless you have a DEA license or are a manufacturer.  I don't know if they place any restrictions on pest control, though.  I doubt it.  Just something else to consider if you are looking to advertise.

Tracy

[JP]

Web sites aren't always up to date, many people tell me they looked in the phone book.


...JP