Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Acebird on December 31, 2010, 09:46:40 am
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From another topic:
As for the ambient temps and all the comments of years past from 50 year old guru's and local bee experts, I heard much that we now know to be wrong. Prophylactic treatments, cutting out queen cells to stop swarming,.....the list is endless.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=30936.new;topicseen#new (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=30936.new;topicseen#new)
Topic: BEE'S FROZEN?!
BjornBee, I am all ears. So could you give us new beeks a rundown of where the old experts are wrong in your opinion.
a discussion of why would be helpful for me because I am a hard guy to convince when theory contradicts experience.
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No problem....
I'll pick out the reference to cutting out queen cells.
I have heard for years, and even today, beekeepers being told that once you find queen cells in the hive, you should rip them all out to prevent swarming. Cutting out swarm cells is also mentioned in some books.
Reality is, ripping out queen cells many times leaves the hive queenless, as the old queen is already programmed to leave the hive. So what happens is the beekeeper rips out the queen cells, the old queen still swarms, and the beekeeper is left with a hive that is now raising emergency queens from old larvae, or a situation where they have nothing to build from at all.
This old advice of ripping out queens cells to stop swarming does not work, and fails to fully understand what is happening in the hive.
And believe me, I sell many queens every year to beekeeper who have queenless hives, after being told to rip out queen cells.
The better advice, and one that takes into account what is actually happening in the hive would be to remove the old queen along with a few frames of brood. This simulates that a swarm has already issued by having the bee acknowledge the older queen has left, there are fewer bees in the colony, and this all suppresses the continued swarming urge for any afterswarms.
This allows the beekeeper a couple management options....
If the new queen fails or gets killed, you still have a mated backup queen to put back in the hive.
Honey production is not lessened from the removal of the queen or a couple frames, as all field bees are still with the original hive.
You can also lessen further swarming urges, by placing additional supers on the hive at the same time as removing the old queen.
You can also harvest additional queen cells for nuc building, requeening weak queens in other hives, etc. Or at least limit afterswarms by cutting out all but a few queen cells. (Which I don't really suggest doing)
a beekeeper has many options. And one should understand swarm prevention, and swarm control.
Too many beekeepers fail at adequate swarm prevention (timely supering, young queens, etc.), then fail again with swarm control by archaic advice based on ripping out queen cells after the hive has already decided to swarm.
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BJ that was truly a great explanation and just the way I think about ripping out queen cells, thanks!
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Swarm cells usually end up producing the best queens...why destroy that resource?
Scott
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Hey thanks, that is great information but I am not there yet. I wouldn't think of ripping out queen cells.
What I am also interest in is this part of the statement: "the list is endless."
You touched on moisture in the other topic. What else are the old timers doing wrong?
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Dang, BJ, as much as it irks me not to be able to harass you on a post, I have to say that is one of your better ones of all time. It should be posted as a banner on the top of the front page throughout the swarm season. It would likely save thousands of hives.
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bjorn, that is an excellent example.
i'd add to what you wrote that it is often a first year beekeeper that finds queen cells (supercedure or swarming), and doesn't feel confident about finding the queen (and may not be able to do so). this also is likely someone with one (hopefully two) brand new hives who has spent a bunch of money already, and doesn't want to hear that they now need to buy a nuc box with a bottom board, inner cover, and telescoping cover (and perhaps some more frames...i know when we started we had the exact amount of frames to fit our boxes).
i now keep cheap nuc boxes on hand (both the waxed cardboard and plastic folding boxes) so that there is something available for new beeks who are facing this situation without placing a rush mail order, without me lending out equipment, and with minimal expense on their part.
if you are unable to find the queen (and you have cells on more than on frame..preferably capped so they don't have to be fed), setup a small nuc with each frame.
as a new beek (and even as an experienced one) it isn't always obvious if you are dealing with swarming or supercedure (with a brand new hive with a brand new queen, if there is plenty of room, it is likely a supercedure). also, there is no guarantee that any queen will return from a mating flight. setting up 2 or 3 "mating nucs" will increase mating odds (more queens going out to mate), and it _may_ reduce the swarming urge (again, assuming you can't find the queen, she is now in one of the mating nucs, the parent hive, or perhaps she has already swarmed or died).
this interrupts the normal "first year of beekeeping" that most books (and bee schools) teach you to expect...but as bjorn says, new beeks follow the conventional advice and end up queenless ALL THE TIME.
this is another one that i think is covered better in our book than in most: (again, we hold the copyright to all this, so there is no issue with me posting it. there may be some small differences between this and what is in the book, i've pased the copy we submitted) Please note that the following is from a beekeeping book designed for beginners:
"If you find queen cells (not cups, but see eggs or larvae in the cups or see capped queen cells): You should try to determine if they are swarm cells or supersedure cells. If the bees have plenty of room, and they start to make queen cells within several weeks of starting the hive, they are probably supersedure cells, and it means that the bees, for one reason or another, think that the current queen is unsuitable and needs replacing. We always recommend letting the bees supersede when they want to.
If there are several frames of brood and the hive is strong, you can split off the laying queen to form a nuc. Minimally, you’ll need a frame of mostly capped brood (and its adhering bees) and a frame of honey. The queen will continue to lay and be in reserve while the new queens in the parent hive fight to the death, and the survivor successfully completes her mating flights.
Many things can go wrong before the new queen starts to lay, and it’s nice to have the old queen in reserve. If the new queen doesn’t make it or proves to be a poor layer, you can recombine the nuc with the old queen into the hive. You can make a similar kind of split if you find several frames with queen cells on them. Place each frame into a separate nuc, let each of the queens mate, and you’ll have established several new[md]though small[md]colonies.
If the queen cells are found in a very populous hive with little room for the queen to lay, and especially when they are found on the outside of the broodnest and on the bottoms of frames, they are more likely swarm cells. At this point, the hive has already decided to swarm.
***BEGIN SIDEBAR***
Bee Smart
Many beekeeping resources instruct you to destroy queen cells if you find them. Don’t listen to them.
All too often the queen has either already left with a swarm, or is about to do so. Cutting queen cells out of such hives leaves them hopelessly queenless, meaning that they have no resources from which to raise a new queen. If you find queen cells, and you think the hive will swarm, put the old queen (and no queen cells) with a few frames of bees and stores in a nuc or 10-frame box. Leave the queen cells in the original hive and open up the broodnest. The old queen is unlikely to swarm from a small nuc with limited population, and the new queens get a chance to mate. This gives you insurance against mating problems because you can always recombine the nuc with the parent hive.
***END SIDEBAR***
It won’t often be clear if queen cells are for swarming or for supercedure. You will have to use your judgment. If you see 20 queen cells in the hive, they are probably swarm cells[md]anything less is more ambiguous."
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It won’t often be clear if queen cells are for swarming or for supercedure. You will have to use your judgment. If you see 20 queen cells in the hive, they are probably swarm cells[md]anything less is more ambiguous."
I don't know about the rest of the new beeks but this makes me laugh. What judgment does a new beek have? As far as I am concerned none. Five years down the road we might have some judgement but right now we are in a state of who to believe. New beeks have their hands full just guessing if they did the right thing for keeping their bees alive through the winter. Queen rearing is another hurdle for the future.
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also worth noting that some hives like to make queen cells. real queen cells. i have one hive that's been going for over 4 years and any time i need queen cells in spring or early summer, i can count on that hive to have a few. i have no idea how many times that hive has replaced it's queen. to my knowledge, it has not swarmed....just as likely i missed it :-)
because i have the evil swallow problem, getting mated queens back to the hive can be a crap shoot. this hive has save more than one with it's donations.
if i had to pick one thing that makes me crazy, it's the idea of top ventilation over winter. anyone who lives in snow country knows that there is heat at the top of the hive. why the heck would you make a hole up there to let that heat out? the bees might survive it, but how much more work do they have to do to replace what you have let out? even worse, an upper and lower entrance.
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What judgment does a new beek have? As far as I am concerned none. Five years down the road we might have some judgement but right now we are in a state of who to believe.
well, if you can afford a full time "beekeeping tutor" or hire someone to manage bees for you, you don't need to use any judgment at all (except in who you hire and what you are hiring them to do). if you don't have that luxury, then every time you open your hive you have to use some judgment.
you will note that the steps we suggest work whether they are supercedure cells or swarm cells...which is why they are given the way they are.
New beeks have their hands full just guessing if they did the right thing for keeping their bees alive through the winter. Queen rearing is another hurdle for the future.
what i've written about here is far from "queen rearing"....it is hedging your bets when you have a set of circumstances that you are not prepared to deal with otherwise.
the Barnstable County Beekeepers (on Cape Cod) did a survey a few years ago with package bees. 10% were drone layers, and only 50% produced full brood patterns in 6 weeks. the survey did not include supercedure, but supercedure of package queens is very, very common (i'd guess around 50% in many cases).
in order to get _to_ winter (nevermind _through_ winter), one must first clear all of these hurdles of the first season....which includes a situation where you see queen cells. so, what are you (the first year beekeeper) supposed to do when you see queen cells?
1. let the bees work it out: this isn't a bad option, but the bees might swarm, or the new queen might not make it back from mating, or be poorly mated.
2. mash the queen cells (this is what is recommended by most books)....which often (as bjorn says) results in buying a new queen (the old one has left or is for one reason or another, not suitable for the bees).
3. split the queen and/or queen cells off into nucs. this way, if they have swarmed you have a good chance of having a laying queen, if they are superceding you increase your odds at still having a laying queen when it is over, if you are a newbee and can't tell drone cells or queen cups from queen cells you haven't done any permanent damage.
ask around at your local club...you will find many who have destroyed queen cells only to purchase a queen (and some still might not understand why, and repeat the advice to destroy queen cells)....bjorn nailed this one as one of the most common and harmful pieces of advice that is commonly given.
i'm not sure what you want...you say you are "all ears", yet you seem to want a "recipe" for keeping bees. there is no such thing. life is full of judgments that must be made when we don't feel up to the task...and bees are full of life!
you can believe whomever you wish, but in the end, you will have to trust your own judgment, no matter how little you think you know. ....or, you can trust someone else and blame them for their poor judgment.
deknow
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also accept the fact that you will fail sometimes. you may make no mistakes that you know of and lose everything. it can be a little distressing, but it is life....not only in beekeeping.
eventually you find the thing that works best for you. it will come from a combination of your own experiments and trying different things that others teach you. one of the great things about this hobby is that there is no one way to do things. that's why you get so many opinions on every question you ask. it's up to you to pick the things that work for you.
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ask around at your local club...you will find many who have destroyed queen cells only to purchase a queen (and some still might not understand why, and repeat the advice to destroy queen cells)....bjorn nailed this one as one of the most common and harmful pieces of advice that is commonly given.
OK you win, you got me listening … maybe a few others are too.
You have to agree that the new beek is like myself (or maybe not) reads a whole bunch of information from all kinds of beeks who don’t agree so it makes us totally confused. However we have determination so we plow ahead and get one hive kit, get it all together and then we are rip roaring ready for our fist nuc. We seek out the oldest and wisest individual that has years of success and buy a nuc from him. He sets it all up for us so we know we got at least a starting chance.
Lets say the season starts in March/April. We wait until June to see how the bees are doing (we are probably not the average new beek here) and they have the two deeps pretty full so we load on the supers (2). This is the only time we have seen inside the hive and we did not pull any brood frame out. In the Fall we find the two top supers full of honey and take the frame of honey out one at a time. We are down to the two deeps now which appears to be full to the brim (bees everywhere). We now screw on the black roofing material on three sides, put the mouse guard on along with both covers. At the advice of another very close by beek we turn the hive 90 degrees so the side and the back are more exposed to the sun (when it appears). Yesterday is the first day we went near the hive and today I pulled the tray and popped the lid for a peek. I did not open the inner cover.
Have at me, flame away!
"i'm not sure what you want..."
a recipe would be nice but a consensus among the elite beeks would be appreciated as to what is right and what is definitely wrong. And as what has already been stated in many posts, I am asking for the world.
It is probably obvious to most readers now that we have decided to do the absolute least intervention to the hive that you could possibly do and then see what happens. In the mean time I can burn up my fingertips on the keyboard asking questions and reading more opinions. What for? So we can exercise judgment that makes sense to us.
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...the only thing i would recommend against in your account is rotating the hive. with a little experience you will see that the bees structure the inside of the hive in part based on the location of the sun. changing this after they have made winter preparations doesn't seem wise to me. perhaps there are circumstances where this helps (perhaps it has to do with wind, and not the sun), but it isn't something i'd do without more information.
deknow
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The only recommendation i would make for turning a hive this time of year would be to turn the opening away from the north-northwest winds.Other than that,let it sit.
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You really do need to inspect your hive. I'm not saying that you should be on the lookout for disease issues or pest problems...it takes a bit of experience to diagnose many diseases.
You can't gain the needed experience without first understanding what a normal hive should look like. Can you identify the basics of the hive? Queen cells or cups vs drone brood, capped brood vs capped honey? The best way to learn is to actually lay eyes on each.
I usually recommend that new beeks inspect every two weeks or so (only with good weather...warm-sunny-low wind) until they feel comfortable with inspections. Maybe start by taking just an outer frame (which is usually a storage frame) and putting it back in. This will give you a feel for how not to roll bees. When comfortable with this take an outer frame and lean it against the hive or hive stand. Slide the second frame to the wall of the hive to reduce squishing bees and remove it as well. Repeat this until you've reached brood.
Once you've gotten to brood take some time to identify eggs, open larvae and capped worker brood as well as drone brood. Put it all back in the same orientation and walk away 'til the next time. This will give you a feel for working the hive.
Each subsequent inspection delve further into the hive and you understand more in no time. Don't bother searching out the queen at first...eggs and young larvae are enough for now. With time you'll be comfortable with it all and develop your own system.
You can then slow down your inspections a bit...you don't want them overly stressed. During flows and with the absence of problems all you need to do is pop the cover to see if they need room or crack the boxes and look on the bottom frame bars for swarm indications.
And pose any questions here or at your bee club.
Scott
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Well said Scott :)
Just not this time of year way up North!! :-D
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Hey thanks, that is great information but I am not there yet. I wouldn't think of ripping out queen cells.
What I am also interest in is this part of the statement: "the list is endless."
You touched on moisture in the other topic. What else are the old timers doing wrong?
Acebird,
I really do not want to write a book. Although this thread has encouraged me to add a new page to my website. :-D
What I find most, and this is no indication of all old beekeepers. It's just I have found many have been doing the same thing for many years. Two things in particular I'll mention....
1) A few years back, a young lady came to an association meeting I was attending. This was her first meeting. She made a request for someone to possibly come out and look at her hive. She felt there were problems with the bees. The president commented that he would see what he could do. She then stated "I guess I should let you know that my bees are in a top bar hive". And I kid you not.....the reply was "Well heck! That's your problem. That ain't beekeeping. Anybody keeping bees in those things deserve to lose their bees!"
2) In 2009 I attended HAS. One of the speakers, and one I will not mention, but would probably be known by 99% of all beekeepers, asked in a bee talk "Who here is using screened bottom boards"?. He then proceeded to comment that "there seems to a a good amount of beekeepers using SBB, and it might be something worth looking into". What? Something to consider? Whether you agree with the use of SBB or not, I find this about 10 years late in the bee world.
I find new beekeepers, younger beekeepers, and those hanging out on forums such as this, more in tune to newer ideas, more educated, and way ahead of the curve in knowledge of what is happening in the bee industry today. I'm not saying oldtimers don't have a wealth of knowledge. But if they continue to live in the same shell with nothing different for the past 30 years, they are no better than an outdated book.
I continue to hear about prophylactic treatments, some are completely ignorant to things like SBB, not using different genetics, not considering breeding program advances, and a host of other things. Many times, it is with the older established crowd. And if I had a quarter for every beekeeper I ever heard "We been doing it this way for 40 years", I would have at least a few dollars in my pocket. To even hear that suggests that some have not updated or advanced in their beekeeping for 40 years. A real shame. The pool of knowledge today is certainly greater than it has been 40 years ago.
Whether it's prophylactic treatments, the removal of "unneeded" pollen frames in the fall since bees don't need such things, the attitude of propolis in the hive, lack of understanding heat benefits in the hive, ignorance to such items as SBB, 8 frame equipment, foundationless systems, TBH, or just the lack of keeping up with the latest management, the list is very long. The old advice of ripping out queen cells to stop swarming is just one of many things that have changed over the years in regards to better ways of managing bees. I've mentioned a few. But there are many more.
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i would rather have options than consensus.
there is nothing wrong with plunking a hive down and pulling honey once a year. i can't say that your hives odds of survival are better or worse than an inspected hive. you won't be able to catch and correct things like a missing queen, but sometimes queens die in winter and you miss it anyway.
my question to you is what are you learning? if you expect to be handed knowledge here or by others, it won't happen. here you get ideas that will help you develop knowledge. hands on is the real teacher. you can buy a new package every time you lose a hive, and that will be fine. if that's as far as you want to take your hobby, it's your decision.
by now, you have been here long enough to know that we don't flame people for asking questions. asking questions and getting answers is what this site is about. there are plenty of folks here willing to walk you through any problem you have, and yes, you will get multiple opinions. for myself, i would only ask that if you are not interested in the answers, don't waste our time with the questions. fair enough?
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Acebird,
I really do not want to write a book.
You know I am going to worm it out of you one way or another. :-D
I'll check your site. That make you happy?
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for myself, i would only ask that if you are not interested in the answers, don't waste our time with the questions. fair enough?
By now you should know that I ask a lot of question, many times it works out for the benefit for others. If you feel that your time will be wasted by answering any one of my questions then don't. I have never asked a question on a forum like this that wasn't answered or at least commented on. The odds are in my favor.
I appreciate all answers but I warn you I don't take any of them as gospel. That will take some time especially when strong feelings are expressed for opposing views.
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...the only thing i would recommend against in your account is rotating the hive. with a little experience you will see that the bees structure the inside of the hive in part based on the location of the sun. changing this after they have made winter preparations doesn't seem wise to me.
Trust me I hesitated when we did it in the fall. It made sense at the time because of the woods there is only two sides that see sun. In the growing season the hive faced east to catch the morning sun. Now it is facing more north so the black side can get the warming benefit.
The problem is there is no real way to determing if the decision is beneficial.
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ah have a candy cane instead- 8-) RDY-B
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ah have a candy cane instead- 8-) RDY-B
:lau:
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Please take this answer as gospel.
Writing on a forum does not convey a person's attitude and intention as speaking does. You must be very careful how your words come across when facial expressions are not present.
People like me and Bjorn, who have met and become friends, can joke and cutup with each other. When you don't know the person, the same thing can anger someone quickly.
Please read your posts as a stranger would and see how they sound.
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Please take this answer as gospel.
Writing on a forum does not convey a person's attitude and intention as speaking does. You must be very careful how your words come across when facial expressions are not present.
People like me and Bjorn, who have met and become friends, can joke and cutup with each other. When you don't know the person, the same thing can anger someone quickly.
Please read your posts as a stranger would and see how they sound.
ARE you angry--venting is Heathy thing -and promotes growth-no lines have been crosed-have a smiley face- :)
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No, but some of your replies to acebird seem to hint that you may be.
Along with a few others.
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:ninja:
not me. just have to wonder sometimes if info is wanted, or an argument. as you say, hard to tell on here sometimes.
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My feeling is if you want to be a beekeeper then you should at least know the basics of how to take care of them such as swarming and pest management at the top of the list. Bjorn knows his stuff along with many others i feel i fit into the newbee catergory with quite a bit of knowledge of todays beekeeping by reading and following the new trend but i am far from a specialist i ask lots of questions im forever bothering bjourn on the phone he takes the time and he is funny and friendly and i do believe some of us on here get carried away and get nasty and take things the wrong way lets face it we are here for fun :evil:
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No, but some of your replies to ace-bird seem to hint that you may be.
Along with a few others.
Ace bird and i have been bating the ball back and forth for a couple of days
he has come to a place of knowledge-and experience- and he will be the better for it and it is my impression he is used to learning the hard way
BUT we as keepers have been down many paths that lead us to success's so
take it or leave it dont try and retrain the ones that help you along the way-they come and they go as is the way of life-
:) RDY-B
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my question to you is what are you learning? if you expect to be handed knowledge here or by others, it won't happen.
Yes, I think this is the key point. You have to be out there bothering your bees in order to figure out what the questions are. The fine beeks on this forum can help with the answers, but you have to figure out what questions are important to you. And you won't get it all at once. It is an iterative process. If you are reading books, looking at your bees, asking question here, reading more books, looking at your bees again, etc. you can learn at a fast pace.
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Ace bird and i have been bating the ball back and forth for a couple of days
he has come to a place of knowledge-and experience- and he will be the better for it and it is my impression he is used to learning the hard way
Well you definitely got me pegged there.
I rarely take offence at any one liner unless it is a relentless pounding. Now I have to admit my ignorance, I didn't get the joke anyway and maybe it is not worth the explanation because the elapse time might have ruined the punch line. I also tend to forget real quick who said what unless the feeling are obvious.
English is by far my worst subject. My lack of communication skills have many times enraged people when I did not intend to do so. I think most will agree that winter is the slow period when it comes to beekeeping so I got a couple of months to learn what I can so I can decide what I am going to do next season.
Oh, I probably should admit another thing while I am in the confessional, I hate books, but I love the internet. Books give you a few ideas in several thousand words. The internet can give you several thousand ideas in the same amount of words. As far as I am concerned books are obsolete. The best you can get is one opinion.
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Yes, I think this is the key point. You have to be out there bothering your bees in order to figure out what the questions are.
I respect your opinion but I don't believe it for one minute. A book can be outdated before it is published. The internet is now and anyone can be a publisher.
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The internet is now and anyone can be a publisher.
And some of what's out there on the internet is a big load of poey. And 2 different opinions can both be right. But the internet is a great tool for communication.
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And some of what's out there on the internet is a big load of poey.
I don't want to mention any names, but read through these forums and certain people are saying the exact same thing about books.
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And some of what's out there on the internet is a big load of poey.
I don't want to mention any names, but read through these forums and certain people are saying the exact same thing about books.
AceB..... are you Rambling :lau:
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As one of those "old guys" some of you are kicking around my experience with bees is that its like any other kind of farming. I've never had a "normal year" in any aspect of farming. Things change continuously(weather, enviroment, practices, etc) and so they have an effect on what you are raising. If you want to stay in business the best you can do is use your experiences, if you have them, and keep yourself updated on changes in practice. From there, as someone said, use your best judgement. Because things change you are never going to get one answer on "this is how it should be done". Also on this site you are talking to people all over the world so what works for one may not work for another.
If you are new at beekeeping I understand that you don't have experiences. You have two choices. Use other people's experiences by having a mentor or reading books or the internet, or you can go at it alone and learn by hard knocks. My advice is to find the middle ground on that, but never stop learning. Farming is about experimenting each year to find out what works best for the conditions thrown at you. If you can't take losses you are not cut out for it. Some years no matter how hard you work at something it is not going to be a good year. Example: One bitterly cold night I had a lamb born. When I found it it was going downhill. Stayed up all night warming it and feeding it until at daybreak it was strong enough to take care of itself. Exhausted I went to bed. When I went out to check later I found it had been so strong that it had jumped into the water bucket and drowned. I had done what I thought was best, but there were other plans for that lamb. Accept the fact that there are going to be losses and that next year will be better.
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ditto that skatesailor. also, judgment sometimes comes down to trusting instinct. even when you are dealing with something new, instinct will often tell you what is right and what is wrong.
had a colt born once where everything went wrong from the start. colt got stuck, mare wouldn't let it nurse, thing developed pneumonia, and it turned out the colt had a hole in it's palate so that it was continually aspirating milk into it's lungs. after two months of nursing this colt along, i figured he was not meant to be. as a last ditch thought, i pulled him off his mom. turned out that when he was not tipping his head up to eat, he didn't get fluids in his lungs. on hay and mash, he did fine. he's 12 now and still blows food out his nose, but he hasn't had a sick day since. :-)
there was nothing wrong with the vets advice. there was nothing wrong with the treatments the vet advised. thing was, i was the one watching him every day. i had to make the decision even though it was not one she agreed with at time.
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he's 12 now and still blows food out his nose, but he hasn't had a sick day since. :-)
LOL
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Farming is about experimenting each year to find out what works best for the conditions thrown at you. If you can't take losses you are not cut out for it.
Ain't that the truth. Boy, you nailed that one.
turned out that when he was not tipping his head up to eat, he didn't get fluids in his lungs.
I think I would have tried an upside down utter.
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"ditto that skatesailor. also, judgment sometimes comes down to trusting instinct. even when you are dealing with something new, instinct will often tell you what is right and what is wrong."
I wanted to jump in and say just what Kathy has written. With all the books I have read and all the forum posts, it still comes down to trusting ones own gut feelings lots of the time. I truly think that beekeeping is a science and an art as well.
You can read all you want, but when the time comes, you need to sit and watch them, you need to observe them and listen to them. Many answers came from inside of me.
I still consider myself a new bee although I have gone through many seasons with the bees. I visit the bees only when I am in a calm state, when I have something to offer them in the way of good vibrations and peaceful manipulations. Unless I cannot avoid it for some reason, I never visit the bees when I am agitated or off in some way.
I know you are probably thinking this sounds very new agey, but this is how I am.
You will learn your own way acebird and I wish you well. Sometimes I believe that to much thinking about something can be very detrimental. I tend to trust my instinct more than my mind.
Sincerely
Annette
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it's very "new agey" but you and i are great examples of how different approaches can still bring (hopefully) good results. i am just as likely to cuss them out and threaten to ventilate the hive with a 12 gauge :-D, especially if i get stung. in spite of that, most of my decisions come after observation and taking time to "feel the force".
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You really do need to inspect your hive. I'm not saying that you should be on the lookout for disease issues or pest problems...it takes a bit of experience to diagnose many diseases.
You can't gain the needed experience without first understanding what a normal hive should look like. Can you identify the basics of the hive? Queen cells or cups vs drone brood, capped brood vs capped honey? The best way to learn is to actually lay eyes on each.
And pose any questions here or at your bee club.
Scott
Agree with everything said here. Its always important to observe your stock in order to observe their health and needs. With a hive that means opening it occasionally. That's how you gain the experience. You might want to jot some notes down as you do this to reflect upon later for comparison.
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it's very "new agey" but you and i are great examples of how different approaches can still bring (hopefully) good results. i am just as likely to cuss them out and threaten to ventilate the hive with a 12 gauge :-D, especially if i get stung. in spite of that, most of my decisions come after observation and taking time to "feel the force".
Maybe try that new Taurus 1911 out?
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Hey Annette,
You can’t change who you are. Spending more than 35 years “thinking it to death” you don’t usually adopt a new game plan. I am sure you have read it and maybe you are a part of it but each person has to do what is comfortable for him or her. It really doesn’t matter how you get there it just matters that you get to a point that satisfies yourself in what ever you do.
Bee happy, we all want the same thing in the end.
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You can't gain the needed experience without first understanding what a normal hive should look like.
I guess I should comment on this because it keeps getting quoted. The power of the Internet allows you to look into hundred’s of normal hives with out ever coming close to one. You can see problem hives and thriving hives, abused hives and pampered hives, and a multitude of different hives in different locations. The biggest experience of opening up your own hive is getting over the fear of the little critters. I believe that experience shouldn’t be forced. Those people that set time tables on their feelings usually get hurt.
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You can also learn a lot about snow skiing from reading and looking at all the pretty pictures out there but you'll never be able to ski for yourself without strapping on a pair of skis and trying it out...PERSONAL experience is the only way to truly learn.
Scott
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You can also learn a lot about snow skiing from reading and looking at all the pretty pictures out there but you'll never be able to ski for yourself without strapping on a pair of skis and trying it out...PERSONAL experience is the only way to truly learn.
Scott
hardwood.........
I like at
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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PERSONAL experience is the only way to truly learn.
Personal experience is an excellent way to learn but I wouldn't suggest it is the only way to learn. If you needed experience we would have never gotten to the moon. I got a feeling there was a lot more to learn on that endeavor than raising bees.
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The power of the Internet allows you to look into hundred’s of normal hives with out ever coming close to one. You can see problem hives and thriving hives, abused hives and pampered hives, and a multitude of different hives in different locations. The biggest experience of opening up your own hive is getting over the fear of the little critters
nope, sorry. a lot of what you need to see and learn is the behavior of the bees under different circumstances. you can't get that from pictures. in my experience, people who don't force themselves to face and deal with fear, don't ever deal with fear. of course, i never thought there was anything wrong with a stiff shot of liquid courage when facing something scary. as long as you suck it up and face it......
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in my experience, people who don't force themselves to face and deal with fear, don't ever deal with fear.
Yes, this is true. Not everyone fairs well after a military approach to solving problems. I prefer to know what I am up against before diving right in armed to the hilt. I think bees are predominately peace loving creatures. I see no logic to ripping their home apart carring a sign saying "I am your friend. I mean you no harm. But I have no darn idea what I am doing".
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it is a bit ridiculous to assign human feelings and intentions to an insect. they are not peace loving creatures. they are bugs. they are also creatures that you have chosen to take and keep. you have a responsibility to learn about them and care for them to the best of your ability.
fear is the mind killer.....and the bee killer also.
additional thought: maybe if you hold a "we come in peace" sign they'll know that you mean them no harm. you'll have nothing to fear......
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Kathy,
We obviously don't agree on this point. I am sure there will be more times when this occurs.
All I have done is give a queen and her entourage a place to live. It is up to them to decide if they like it. The door is open (both of them), they can leave if they want to.
you have a responsibility to learn about them and care for them to the best of your ability.
They have no feelings but I have a responsibility? :?
I choose to learn about them but I do not have any responsibility for them. That is your rule book.
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The power of the Internet allows you to look into hundred’s of normal hives with out ever coming close to one.
sorry, the above is not true.
there are all kinds of different reasons to keep bees, and i don't think that everyone _needs_ to do inspections. but, if you want to learn about bees, you gotta open the box. if you don't want to learn about bees (and just want to install a packages every year to keep your blueberries pollinated, more power to you, and i don't see any reason for you to be asking all the questions you are asking.
there are things you can learn by reading and looking at pictures and videos....but you will never "grock" bees (even on a basic level) without hands on experience....it's akin to being raised alone in a box and learning about "people" and "friendship" via the media.
...i'll also comment on something you said earlier. if you don't want to read (books, websites, etc), that is your deal....but it's a lot to expect everyone here to "answer" to your every thought and inquiry when you are not willing to put some time in educating yourself. certainly books have a "perspective", but methods for keeping bees are "systems", and often a practice or technique that works for someone works because of a number of other things they are doing. ...there is something to be said (perhaps everything) to looking at complete systems rather than a random assemblage of individual components (which is what you are getting here).
speaking for myself, i'd be happy to answer every question that comes to your mind for a reasonable hourly rate...beyond that, if you don't spend time reading, educating yourself and answering your own questions (especially the basic ones), you will quickly become annoying, and will likely be ignored.
books (especially good books) do promote one way of thinking, one way of doing things. would you rather read a book written by a commettee? is such a book likely to lead the way to success?
deknow
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They have no feelings but I have a responsibility? :?
I choose to learn about them but I do not have any responsibility for them. That is your rule book.
I think so yeah. You chose to buy either a package or nuc of bees so it is your responsibility to take care of them. And part of taking care of them would be to pop the top, take a look in and see what they may or may not need. I'm guessing that is your garden thats shown in your avatar....you didnt just throw out a few tomato plants in a hole in the ground and if they survived great if not no biggie. You cultivated, maybe watered, prolly slung on some chicken poo whatever to insure that you got what you expected out of your efforts. Keeping a beehive or two is no different. Throw a suit on and dive right in. It was intimidating as hell when i first did it-almost a rush to have all those bees flying around, but I did it and the experience has been great and the education worth every second.
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...why does "buying bees" imply (or impose) some kind of "responsibility for their well being"? why doesn't an anthill on your property (or even termites in your foundation) demand the same responsibility and care?
if it's because the bees are "living", then you have the responsibility to care for other living things that are in your orbit.
if it's because you paid for them, then it's time to bring your pet rock to the geologist for a checkup!
deknow
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...why does "buying bees" imply (or impose) some kind of "responsibility for their well being"? why doesn't an anthill on your property (or even termites in your foundation) demand the same responsibility and care?
if it's because the bees are "living", then you have the responsibility to care for other living things that are in your orbit.
if it's because you paid for them, then it's time to bring your pet rock to the geologist for a checkup!
deknow
Youve had me up til now deknow. So if I choose to buy something it doesnt denote a responsibility to take care of it? I buy a car, but if I dont take care of it what kind of service can I expect out of it or how long would it last? I built my house....so I take care of it. I feed the bluebirds that are in also in my 'orbit' even though I didnt pay for them. However I gas the legs off of every fire ant hill that pops up in my 'orbit' simply because they are evil and hurt like a dickens. (If you dont have them up there yet, I can mail you some) So yes, I feel like that if a person has went so far as to buy a package of bees, have provided them a place to live and hopefully thrive, then it is their responsibility to take care of them. If it wasnt, then one should just bring them home and scatter them to the wind to fend for themselves. Be a lot less beehavers. What we we talk about on here? Wouldnt be any mite problems, no need for SC foundations or SBB. Shoot, we could even solve CCD that way.
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I'm guessing that you will learn one way or the other. If you don't open the hive and do some normal inspections then there is a good chance you will open up a dead hive and then try to learn by going online and looking at pictures of what happened to your bees. I prefer to try to learn from live bees, even if it does disturb them a little. There are many years of experience telling you that regular inspections are the best way to go. I'm going to listen.
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deknow, i think that when you choose to keep a thing you have chosen to be responsible for it. i would not feel a responsibility to care for a hive that moved into my wall. i know of no redeeming value in termites, so i don't care for them....and i would not bring them in. ;)
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i know of no redeeming value in termites, so i don't care for them....and i would not bring them in.
See how cruel you are. :-D
If you don't open the hive and do some normal inspections then there is a good chance you will open up a dead hive and then try to learn by going online and looking at pictures of what happened to your bees.
Funny you should mention that. I got more if you want them.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive013.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive013.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive010.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive010.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive009.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive009.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive006.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive006.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive008.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive008.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive014.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive014.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive013.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive013.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive010.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive010.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive009.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive009.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive006.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive006.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive008.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive008.jpg)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive014.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/DeadHive014.jpg)
Do you really think this is the first time I opened up the hive? I had to stand in the middle of thirty nucs when we picked up our hive. We have one hive. Next year we will add another one. If this one survives then we will have two if not then we will have equipment for two but only one live one.
I see success in the future. I just don’t know how long that will be.
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Good discussion with some very relevent information for new and old beeks, sorry I discovered so late. I was reading a couple books :-D
thomas
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All I can say is " Man up and grow a pair...what are you afraid of?"
Scott
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a few thoughts....
1. once the queen has been released, i'd be willing to bet that on balance, first year beekeepers with little experience generally do the bees more harm than good when they inspect the colony. brood is spread too far, bees (the queen?) get rolled and killed... bees are inspected once or twice a week because the beekeeper can't stand to not know what is going on in the box. i don't see a problem with this (see below), but if "caring" for the bees is the primary concern, inspections should be infrequent and one should not even have bees until spending a season working with another beekeeper.
2. i'm a big fan of learning about bees, i just don't think that everyone has that as a goal.
3. i think the overriding goal of beeschools (having new beekeepers successfully overwinter their first hive) is problematic. i think the goal _should_ be learning about bees....which means (for someone with little or no experience) more frequent inspections than is "good for the bees" (once a week seems about right to me), and even going so far as to keep an observation hive their first year (something i know micahael bush has been saying for a long time). even if a new hive dies, you've got comb for next year....and although it is dificult for a newbee to maintain an observation hive, they will learn more in trying to do so than they will in several years of keeping one or two hives.
4. unlike buying a cow or a flock of chickens, bees largely take care of themselves. "leaving them alone" is very different than having chickens in a coop or a cow tied to a pole and not feeding and watering them.
5. if i have some kind of moral responisiblity towards "caring" for the bees i purchase, i wonder how i should boil a lobster i purchase?
deknow
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brood is spread too far, bees (the queen?) get rolled and killed...
I have seen this term used more than once. What is getting rolled and how does one avoid it?
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i wonder how i should boil a lobster i purchase?
rolling boil. don't over cook.
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When you pull up on a frame with little space between the next frame the bees in between the frames are "rolled" between the two. That's why you should pull an outside frame first and slide the second frame to the outside wall of the hive to give yourself (and the bees) some room. The outside frames are normally storage (not brood) frames and the queen is less likely to be there.
You wouldn't want to pull a center frame first.
Scott
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a few thoughts....
4. unlike buying a cow or a flock of chickens, bees largely take care of themselves. "leaving them alone" is very different than having chickens in a coop or a cow tied to a pole and not feeding and watering them.
5. if i have some kind of moral responisiblity towards "caring" for the bees i purchase, i wonder how i should boil a lobster i purchase?
deknow
Yes and no. I can evaluate my chickens egg laying performance by how many eggs that I gather everyday. In order to evaluate my queens performance, a hive check is required. I wish that I could stand outside and magically tell how well or poorly the hive was doing but to do so an internal hive check is required. As a newbee this year, I was guilty of going in too many times after installing my packages, but I learned a lot in doing so. An observation hive would have been great, I agree, but I have also heard that OH are far more tedious and problematic and not really recommended for a beginner. I would dare say that very few if any beekeepers on this site or others started out with one.
The way I care for my lobster is to refrigerate it, set grill to medium and then 5 minutes on each side. Butter is optional :-D
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You wouldn't want to pull a center frame first.
It is my experience that you can't anyway. That center one is glued in so bad you have to break the frame to get it to budge. I always go for the outside one first. That is probably something you can learn on your own.
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Yes and no. I can evaluate my chickens egg laying performance by how many eggs that I gather everyday.
yes you can....but you not expecting your chickens to forage for their own food and water.....they are livestock who don't eat unless you feed them (at least our chickens are, yours could be completely "free range"). you are essentially giving them the raw materials to "make" eggs for you. if you do the same with bees, you either have thousands of acres that you have planted, or you are not producing honey (bees fed honey are not producing it, they are storing it...and bees fed sugar are not producing honey).
In order to evaluate my queens performance, a hive check is required. I wish that I could stand outside and magically tell how well or poorly the hive was doing but to do so an internal hive check is required.
there is a lot you can tell from the outside of the hive. if there are orientation flights brood is being raised, if the hive is heavy, honey is being stored. if they are being robbed, they are weak. if there are tons of drones you might have a supercedure or a swarm on your hands....and if you have tons of drones and no worker orientation flights you might have laying workers. multiple hives in a single location gives you even more information.
As a newbee this year, I was guilty of going in too many times after installing my packages, but I learned a lot in doing so. An observation hive would have been great, I agree, but I have also heard that OH are far more tedious and problematic and not really recommended for a beginner. I would dare say that very few if any beekeepers on this site or others started out with one.
did you read my post above???? isn't this exactly what i said? the reason that observation hives aren't really recommended for beginners is that they are hard to manage, not that the new beekeeper won't learn a lot.
The way I care for my lobster is to refrigerate it, set grill to medium and then 5 minutes on each side. Butter is optional :-D
ok, so purchasing bees requires that you "care for them", but purchasing a lobster allows you to boil it alive and eat it. fire ants don't deserve care because their bites hurt...but honeybee stings also hurt (but fire ants don't produce honey or pollinate our crops).
for many, their need or desire for bees doesn't extend beyond a little local pollination. i'm not sure why anyone would want or need to impose their own views of "appropriate responsibility" on someone just because they purchased bees to pollinate crops rather than a lobster to eat for dinner.
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for many, their need or desire for bees doesn't extend beyond a little local pollination. i'm not sure why anyone would want or need to impose their own views of "appropriate responsibility" on someone just because they purchased bees to pollinate crops rather than a lobster to eat for dinner.
Instinct. Something bred into them at birth. They can’t help themselves.
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Unfortunately, not all "experienced" beekeepers make good mentors, even here on this forum some are better teachers than others. I can only example my own experience from over 30 years ago working with an outfit that couldn't have cared less about bees.
Once I made the decision to keep them myself, everything I learned from those knuckleheads went out the window.
This forum and others like it have become my mentors since returning to beekeeping five years ago. I live in an area where the closest known "experienced" beek is more than an hour away, the closest club is more than 2 hours away. Needless to say, I get most of my questions answered right here, but then again I started out with "READING" the earliest available posts so many of my questions were answered before I ever typed in a question/opinion, but hey, that's me.
deknow; Not everyone has the luxury of knowing "similar-minded beek" (natural, chemical free, TBH, alternative designs and the list goes on and on....) or any beek mentor to go to with questions. Isn't that why these forums exist?
thomas
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deknow; Not everyone has the luxury of knowing "similar-minded beek" (natural, chemical free, TBH, alternative designs and the list goes on and on....) or any beek mentor to go to with questions. Isn't that why these forums exist?
of course it is!
deknow
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i'm not sure why anyone would want or need to impose their own views of "appropriate responsibility" on someone just because they purchased bees to pollinate crops rather than a lobster to eat for dinner
i'm not sure how you came to this. we all have different ideas about what needs to be done with bees....or not. my small frustration with this conversation is that if you want only to put bees in your yard and let them care for themselves, thats fine. if you want to learn, you need to get in and observe.
if a poster says they want to learn, but they don't want to get into their hive, there is a limit to what anyone can do to help them.
perhaps, if one were to decide exactly what one wanted to do, answering questions (or not) would be considerably easier.
my personal feeling is that if you take something, you care for it. that care might come in different forms. i'm not going to go beat the crap out of someone because they have a different idea about it.
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kathy, i agree 100% with your post above.
deknow
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did you read my post above???? isn't this exactly what i said? the reason that observation hives aren't really recommended for beginners is that they are hard to manage, not that the new beekeeper won't learn a lot.
Yes I did and I was agreeing with you on that point., but disagreeing about on OH for beginning beeks which is what you stated.
Instinct. Something bred into them at birth. They can’t help themselves.
I'm not imposing anything on anyone-I could care less what he or anyone else does with their hives. And Acebird, I really don't want to start the personal insults..I get enough of that at work..
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my point with the observation hive is that although you may not get them through the winter, you will learn more in one season with an observation hive than you will in many seasons with one or two hives. if learning about bees is the goal, an observation hive is a good choice, even if they end up dead.
deknow
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Acebird, I really don't want to start the personal insults..I get enough of that at work..
It is not a personal insult. It is a fact of life. People do what they do because of who they are. I will accept you telling me what my responsibilities are as long as you accept me telling you that you are all wet.
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my point with the observation hive is that although you may not get them through the winter, you will learn more in one season with an observation hive than you will in many seasons with one or two hives.
And my point is everyone learns at their own pace. We got gratification with our first dead hive because they pollinated our gardens and gave us 4 quarts of honey AND a heck of a good start on a new hive the following year. If your sites are too high you could get discusted with failure and quit. So everything you learned is for not.
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Acebird, I really don't want to start the personal insults..I get enough of that at work..
It is not a personal insult. It is a fact of life. People do what they do because of who they are. I will accept you telling me what my responsibilities are as long as you accept me telling you that you are all wet.
All wet huh? You really burned me with that one.
Seeing as how you already have all the answers, why do you even need to post questions on a forum then dispute everything that people say and then start with the insults?
Good luck to ya...
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Acebird, I really don't want to start the personal insults..I get enough of that at work..
It is not a personal insult. It is a fact of life. People do what they do because of who they are. I will accept you telling me what my responsibilities are as long as you accept me telling you that you are all wet.
All wet huh? You really burned me with that one.
Seeing as how you already have all the answers, why do you even need to post questions on a forum then dispute everything that people say and then start with the insults?
Good luck to ya...
I watch COPS, and you, sir, are definitely not acting like a police officer!!
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Seeing as how you already have all the answers, why do you even need to post questions on a forum then dispute everything that people say and then start with the insults?
I am very sorry you take my respones as insults. I am here to see what people think because I don't know everything. I agree with some ideas and I disagree with other ideas. It is far fetched to say I dispute everything that people say. As what has already been stated by someone else, there is no consensus when it comes to beekeeping. The nearest I can tell is it is 50/50 on almost all topics. So if I side with the first 50 I am the bad guy on the last 50. How is that, because I am the new guy?
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acebird; your responses sometimes come across as insulting, that said, many of your questions are also very good for beginners (and beeks w/ moss). I'm Just hoping they're not turned off by some of your remarks and decide to shut you down and out.
Beekeeping has an extremely sharp learning curve. That is a fact. It may not be Rocket Science, but its close :-D
thomas
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he won't get shut down, or out. we are a pretty patient bunch and i, at least, realize that things on here don't always come across as we intend :evil:.
i would never want to discourage a new(ish) beekeeper. i remember how enthused i was when i first started and i remember the very basic questions i asked. whenever i am going to try something new, i come back with basic, and for some of the old timers here, probably stupid, questions.
i thinks folks on here get pretty wide latitude unless the just get nasty. that has happened......
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kathyp; you are soooo right. thankyou for your insight and advise (most of the time :-D)
thomas
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You wouldn't want to pull a center frame first.
It is my experience that you can't anyway. That center one is glued in so bad you have to break the frame to get it to budge. I always go for the outside one first. That is probably something you can learn on your own.
That may be true in a new hive, but a mature hive everything is so glued and tight that I found it easier to pull from the middle. Yes, and learned the hard way. Not anymore....
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Seeing as how you already have all the answers, why do you even need to post questions on a forum then dispute everything that people say and then start with the insults?
I am very sorry you take my respones as insults. I am here to see what people think because I don't know everything. I agree with some ideas and I disagree with other ideas. It is far fetched to say I dispute everything that people say. As what has already been stated by someone else, there is no consensus when it comes to beekeeping. The nearest I can tell is it is 50/50 on almost all topics. So if I side with the first 50 I am the bad guy on the last 50. How is that, because I am the new guy?
You are better not siding with anybody. Both sides are right. Being relatively new here, if you try arguing a side, you are going to end up being chewed up, most issues have been beaten to death already. And if you side against anybody, a finger pointed at only one year's experience will be able to say "on what grounds...". :-D
I can tell you that what I did and how I did it changed drastically in the first few years of beekeeping. With all the reading and questions I'm sure the second year goes a lot better for you.
Rick
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Quotefrom acebird: I think most will agree that winter is the slow period when it comes to beekeeping so I got a couple of months to learn what I can so I can decide what I am going to do next season.
Winter is the slow period of beekeeping only in that the beekeeper is not actively engaged in working his bees. It is still a time for a lot of repair and preperation from last season for next season. Beekeeping is a 12 months a year side job, unless your a commercial beekeeper and then it's a 12 months a year occupation.
At one point during this discussiion it was mentioned at it is easy to word posts in a way that another might take the wrong way. I've seen a lot of that as I've read through this post. Those who have posted short retorts need to man up, develop a thick skin and take the time to realize that a put down was probably not intended. I read every post as if anything that might be taken as a put down was just unintended wording, as a result I seldom get my feathers ruffled, although I have taken offense on a few occassions and then I leave to doubt as to how and why I was offended.
Beekeeping is one of the most amazing hobbies, avocations, or occupation a person can have and one can never learn enough about them. (My other hobbies of pigeon racing and ham radio are also interesting) and a person should approach beekeeping with an attitude of acheiving an eager education. Ask questions, read/listen to the answer, then decide upon a course of action.
I'ver noted comments in some of the postings on this website about turning the hive during the winter. This idea, to me, is a good way to lose behives as they are being disoriented at a time they need orientation the most. In the times I experimented with this concept I lost the hive 90% of the time, even strong hives. Now I have my hives facing south driecting into the majority of the winter winds in my area (winds that somethimes reach 80+ mph) and haven't lost a hive except when it was knocked over by flying materials (sheet of plywood) and split apart during a storm.
If you ask 20 beekeepers a questions, expect 22 answers. Use what experience you have (even if it consists only of introductiong a package bees to a hive last week) to sift through those answers for a likely course of action, settle on one, or meld a few together into a seperate answer and impliment it. If it fails, learn from it and move on to the next round. Don't become discouraged, and try not to be offended by the sarcastic smart allecks.
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wasn't the original topic title "I am all ears?" :)
thomas
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In the times I experimented with this concept I lost the hive 90% of the time, even strong hives.
I wish I could have got your take last Fall when we did it. As a new beek you tend to be gallable when someone tells you what they do as though it is successful.
Thanks for sharing.