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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BlueBee on November 24, 2012, 03:48:32 pm

Title: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on November 24, 2012, 03:48:32 pm
OK folks, I’ve got my lab coat on, the Van De Graaf generator fired up, and honey balls in hand.  I’m ready to experiment with the bees again this winter. :)  So this winter I’m experimenting to see rather or not I can overwinter small mating nucs in well insulated foam boxes.  The mating nucs hold 4 half size medium frames with a total comb area = 1.6 medium frames.  I have counted between 604 and 1013 bees in these mating boxes.  So the experiment boils down to this: can you over winter a cup full of bees in a foam box in Michigan?

I’ve got 4 mating nucs left that are going into this experiment.  Here’s a photo of them as of today.  It was 32F/0C when I took these photos.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc1Nov24.jpg)
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc2Nov24.jpg)
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc3Nov24.jpg)
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc4Nov24.jpg)

What are the odds any of these survive the winter?
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: RHBee on November 24, 2012, 04:31:46 pm
With the amount of experience I have I have to say. I don't have any idea but, I'm looking forward to finding out. Pushing them to extremes aren't you?
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on November 24, 2012, 05:43:34 pm
.
I have done this several times and it suceeds,  but it is a nuisance.

After winter the nuc is not able to start brooding. It must have 2 frames of bees from big hive and it is much. Practically you must make a nuc from nothing.

However it reveals out, what means heat and cold in wintering.

"Cold does not kill hives" = rubbish! It surely kills.

It kills at least small colonies. Heating reveals that small  colonies go over winter with heating.

Big hives may become small when nosema or varroa kill most of bees from cluster.

Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Jim134 on November 24, 2012, 11:37:56 pm
I do know wet bees and cold will kill BEES.



          BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: tefer2 on November 24, 2012, 11:56:12 pm
I've thought about this before, my guess is 0% of survival. Not enough bees to keep a small cluster alive when it's winter. I would give you a 50% chance if you combine all four. Good luck.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on November 25, 2012, 12:02:56 am
Heating reveals that small  colonies go over winter with heating.

I'm not using electric heat to heat these mating nucs.  It's only about 800 bees plus about 50mm worth of foam insulation. 

So far, the bees are making descent heat since they were not in cluster today and it is was 32F/0C all day long.

I'll tell you one thing, they sure don't like it when I peel back the plastic foil to throw in some more honey balls!  The come rushing to the break in their home's seal real fast.

Tefer….. you may be right!  We’ll have to watch and see.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: tefer2 on November 25, 2012, 12:22:55 am
It is a shock when they come blasting out of there for your face. You would think that the cold would slow them down some. I learned to wear my veil now.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on November 25, 2012, 12:27:10 am
.
Sad to say BlueBee but you have much to learn in bees wintering.


You should understand that winter is the most dangerous period to bees.
The best hives are those which show zero activity from Autumn to spring.

You are too earger to arrange activities to them when they should be very silently in their cluster.

Some hives are restless, they keep so high temperature that snow melts from roof.

Extra activity makes them ate gut full and they must come out to die.
In south they burn too early themselves and loose their longlivity.

Those honey balls as "extra food" make cluster restless.
They know that there is open honey in the hive and bees instinct say that they should clean the hive.

Then you have honey balls and condensation dew points over the balls. What hapens?

I wonder if any bees will stay alive from this toy. Bees are very sensitive to get nosema in these
circumstances.

You see condensation and you should make a tiny hole that it can go out.


Many guy in this forum is too wise to lean anything. Sorry to waste my time.
This discussion have not been pleasant with you about wintering.

.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on November 25, 2012, 12:46:38 am
It’s an experiment Finski, I’m open to suggestions, but there isn’t much I can do at this point.  I hear you about the cluster wanting to sleep.  I don’t believe the bees will sleep until the hive temperature gets cool (say 55F/13C).  50mm of polystyrene plus the bees are evidently keeping the hive above 13C at this point….It’s nothing I’m doing.  I’m not adding any electric heat, or any heat for that matter; it’s the bees.     

These little mating nucs already have a top entrance so poking a hole in the plastic really isn’t going to do much.  There’s no place above the top for the moisture to vent.  The top is the top.  As for the condensation, I think what is happening is cold air is getting blown into the entrance hole in Nuc #1 and causing the condensation.  My plan is to rotate that hive 90degrees to get it out of the wind.

The only reason I’m feeding the honey balls is because most of these mating nucs were VERY VERY light.  They had maybe two of three days worth of honey left in them when I saved them.  They had eaten all their honey trying to keep warm before I added all the insulation. 
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BMAC on November 26, 2012, 04:25:28 pm
You have to let us know how your mating NUCs winter.  I am also wintering mating NUCs this winter but they will be in the south so they should be fine.  Weight is always an issue.  Mine where almost too heavy for 1 person to pick up so they should have enough stores till spring.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on November 26, 2012, 05:00:49 pm


The only reason I’m feeding the honey balls is because most of these mating nucs were VERY VERY light.  They had maybe two of three days worth of honey left in them when I saved them.  They had eaten all their honey trying to keep warm before I added all the insulation. 


You may for example move nucs to the frames which are full and capped. Just shake them

.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on November 26, 2012, 06:08:30 pm
Thanks Finski, that does sound like a good idea if we get some more good weather. 

I haven’t peeked in on them since the last post.   We’ve been right at 32F/0C the last few days.  It’s going to dip to 20F/-6C tonight.  I haven’t seen any bees at the entrances of the mating nucs today, they may be sleeping in cluster right now. 
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: MTWIBadger on November 26, 2012, 09:07:25 pm
BlueBee
I like your willingness to try something new when you have nothing to lose.  It would be nice to insert enough capped honey/sugar frames to eliminate lack of food as a variable in your experiment.

I also use foam insulation on all of my hives and a low watt bulb for the smaller hives (only turned on in the single digits or lower range).  I've been thinking about keeping my single 8 frame insulated hive in
the garage for the winter since it will stay mainly in the 40s. I could plug up the entrance and bring it out on a warm day which won't happen until spring. 

Even if you have to add some frames of eggs/brood in the spring, you have a mated queen that normally would not be able to survive the winter.

Keep us updated!
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: tefer2 on November 26, 2012, 09:16:24 pm
Bluebee, a few of my double deckers were light last fall after an inspection. I added full honey frames to fill them and thought that I was all set for winter. We had a few warm days and some of them got cleaned out by robbers. This year I waited until Thanksgiving to top them off. With the forecast this weekend to 60 degrees I'm already looking for my robber screens. You should be able to add some capped honey to them Sunday for sure.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 12, 2012, 06:19:30 pm
It’s not Christmas yet, but I figured my little mating nucs might like an early Christmas snack.  So I made them a batch of honey balls today.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/HoneyBallsDec12.jpg)

I haven’t checked in on the mating nucs for a couple of weeks.  Here is what I found today.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc1Dec12.jpg)

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc2Dec12.jpg)

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc3Dec12.jpg)

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc4Dec12.jpg)

Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: tefer2 on December 12, 2012, 11:18:20 pm
It's way to early to be seeing that for sure! :(
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on December 13, 2012, 05:33:43 am
It’s not Christmas yet, but I figured my little mating nucs might like an early Christmas snack.  So I made them a batch of honey balls today.

You really try to kill your nucs.
Bees must be in peace over winter. you cannot learn seemengly but I tell to other beeks.

.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BjornBee on December 13, 2012, 08:37:32 am
You really try to kill your nucs.
Bees must be in peace over winter. you cannot learn seemengly but I tell to other beeks.


 :lau:
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on December 13, 2012, 10:05:18 am
.
That feeding methods is used to wake up colony in spring that they start brooding. But it is December now.

.
I do not even ask what is idea.  It is a  disaster, not even idea.

"big hives try to rob mating nucs"   - you should understand that you you self invite them to do that. Don't do that in winter, and not at all in summer.

"open feeding trials before permanent snowfalls"  -- somebody told you to do so....


When you give open honey to the hive, questions is not that "bees like it". No, they wonder what is wrong, because somebody has broken they honey stores. They are more upset than happy. What they  will do; they start to rearrange their stores so that food is in cells and not allaround corners.

What do you think that someone comes to you home and throws tomatoes, juice and bread onto walls?


A years ago I give to hives old capped honey frames for winter food. Frames seemed good, but it took one week that bees arranged the frames and calmed to cluster again. Bees cleaned broken cells, moved food and tried to recap food in low temperature.

Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: S.Rummings on December 13, 2012, 10:34:52 am
You really try to kill your nucs.
Bees must be in peace over winter. you cannot learn seemengly but I tell to other beeks.

I thought the whole point of this experiment was to learn. He apparently has bees that he is willing to sacrifice for this experiment so what is so bad about that? I took this thread as a report on that experiment, not a request for help.

When I start giving advice as an experienced beekeeper I would feel better giving advice based on my experience, rather than giving advice based on what Finski told me. There is nothing wrong with learning from others but I'll bet that isn't how you became the expert you now are. I would never criticize someone for trying a risky experiment in the goal of education if the risk of failure is understood and acceptable.

BlueBee has much to learn in wintering nucs.... Isn't that what he is doing now?
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on December 13, 2012, 10:40:31 am


I thought the whole point of this experiment was to learn.

The whole poin IN LEARNING is to read and listen how  others have succeeded before.

Learning is not that you repeat others' mistakes.

To repeat others mistakes, it has a name.

.
I wonder about guys who encourage others to do such things what they never do to their own hives.

.

.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BjornBee on December 13, 2012, 12:02:49 pm
I thought the idea of a forum was to come here and hear from others, add input and your own experiences, debate, discuss, and expand one's knowledge, and even have an enjoyment factor thrown in.

I did not think it came with the demands of one person telling what one should or should not do, and even defining what everyone's definition of 'learning" should be. Sometimes learning is exactly that.....repeating others mistakes. There is more to learn than the final outcome, and perhaps something can be learned along the path of doing it for yourself, even if the final result is the same.

It does not come with telling another they are an idiot, in some round about manner, while rationalizing it as a language barrier.

It does not come with anything beyond offering advice and understanding each and every member has the choice to do what they want. If I had the freedom to call someone an idiot everytime they did something that I had previously done, while demanding they listen to me as I know best and better than them, I would think some might quit listening.  ;)

Just trying to help. Here is my hand.....smack away!

I'm just one ignorant American trying to help another ignorant American....or so it seems.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on December 13, 2012, 12:06:39 pm
-
Bjorn, you have the best experience to say that. No one can be so right as you can.

You are ridigulous.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BjornBee on December 13, 2012, 12:11:22 pm
-
Bjorn, you have the best experience to say that. No one can be so right as you can.

You are ridigulous.

Thank you Finski. I've been called far worse....from You! :-D

I will not bite with name calling. I know how the game is played.

My comments were really for others to read, and perhaps consider.

Take Care.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on December 13, 2012, 12:15:11 pm
-
Bjorn, you have the best experience to say that. No one can be so right as you can.

You are ridigulous.

Thank you Finski. I've been called far worse....from You! :-D

I will not bite with name calling. I know how the game is played.

My comments were really for others to read, and perhaps consider.

Take Care.

what ever, you are right .

Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BjornBee on December 13, 2012, 12:23:58 pm
Bluebee
How do you make your "Honey balls"?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 13, 2012, 12:45:22 pm
My comments were really for others to read, and perhaps consider.
They have been read and appreciated.  X:X X:X X:X
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 13, 2012, 12:48:31 pm
Experimenting is an integral part of the scientific method.  Experimenting should not be criticized.  For anybody claiming they have expert “experience” wintering  mating nucs with only 600 to 1000 bees, please send us a link with evidence;  a forum post, photos, a paper trail.

I have searched the archives of BeeMaster and BeeSource and didn’t find any posts where this has been successful.  There are something like 300,000 posts on BeeMaster and 800,000 on BeeSource. 

Sure people successfully winter full sized mating nucs (5 deep frames) with thousands of bees; I have about 30 going right now.   My inquiry with this experiment was to see if a really small colony (under 1000 bees) can make it though winter with sufficient insulation. 

True knowledge is a combination of experience and theory.  Experience tells us the Earth is flat.  Mathematical theory tells us the Earth is round.  The Ancient Greeks used math and figured this out 1000 years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes)

Yeah…. I keep a healthy skepticism when people claim THEY know everything based on NN years “experience”.  It’s usually just another method of intimidation and putting people down.  People who are TRULY knowledgeable, back up their assertions with data.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on December 13, 2012, 01:22:20 pm
-
I have  a  education in biological researcher in university. The biggest value was during 5 year education that
find out, what others know about issue. Contact them and start there where others have finished.
Don't invent you own wheel.

If you believe that hobby is science, it is a big mistake.

I have wintered  2-frames nucs with 3 W terrarium heaters.
They survive alive well over winter but they are not able to start brooding.
1 frame nuc cannot keep brood area warm.
So they have only value of queen.
One way is to put 3 nucs over a big hive and they get heat from above =queen bank

These are simple things and no science.

Easier is to make 4-5 frame nucs than make a life difficult with 2-frame nucs.

.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on December 13, 2012, 01:27:57 pm
Experimenting is an integral part of the scientific method.  Experimenting should not be criticized.  For anybody claiming they have expert “experience” wintering  mating nucs with only 600 to 1000 bees, .


That only tells that how small knowledge you really have about beekeeping. Nothing more.
It is not wise to rear 600 bee nucs even in summer. It is mere nuisance.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BjornBee on December 13, 2012, 02:36:23 pm
Experimenting is an integral part of the scientific method.  Experimenting should not be criticized.  For anybody claiming they have expert “experience” wintering  mating nucs with only 600 to 1000 bees, please send us a link with evidence;  a forum post, photos, a paper trail.

I have searched the archives of BeeMaster and BeeSource and didn’t find any posts where this has been successful.  There are something like 300,000 posts on BeeMaster and 800,000 on BeeSource.  

Sure people successfully winter full sized mating nucs (5 deep frames) with thousands of bees; I have about 30 going right now.   My inquiry with this experiment was to see if a really small colony (under 1000 bees) can make it though winter with sufficient insulation.  

True knowledge is a combination of experience and theory.  Experience tells us the Earth is flat.  Mathematical theory tells us the Earth is round.  The Ancient Greeks used math and figured this out 1000 years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes)

Yeah…. I keep a healthy skepticism when people claim THEY know everything based on NN years “experience”.  It’s usually just another method of intimidation and putting people down.  People who are TRULY knowledgeable, back up their assertions with data.


Thank you Bluebee.

Good luck on this. I am interested in the outcome. Thank you for the effort.

And while I am not a 5 year researcher, or whatever else to toot my own horns, I do know that many practical solutions, from everything from farming, beekeeping, to just being a good ol' handy man, much of that knowledge came from a couple old fools out behind the woodshed playing around. And much of beekeeping knowledge handed down came from such efforts. It did not come from mulit-million dollar research led by pompous researchers who claimed to know it all, while getting upset when someone does not do what they say should be done. It came from folks like you. Thanks.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: gaucho10 on December 13, 2012, 08:26:31 pm
Bluebee & BjornBee,

I agree with both of you.  This is the exact reason why I stopped coming to this blog and making any statements or puting in any of my $000.02.  Because regardless of what my ideas are, weather  anyone is interested or not in hearing them, there is always THAT educated moron who will try to argue the point. :shock:

Nothing has changed here....I guess I'll go back and spend some more time on my motorcycle blog.....
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: derekm on December 13, 2012, 08:44:31 pm
With so few bees clustering is not much protection .
Therefore every watt saved by the hive counts
So from the basic physics of keeping heat in container with a permanent opening
use smallest practical volume
have large vertical distance from majority of volume to opening (my measurements suggest at least 2 foot)
high insulation value
insulation sealed both inside and outside everywhere except opening.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 13, 2012, 09:35:12 pm
Hey Gaucho I remember you and your very interesting bee work.  It's a shame when people like you are discouraged from contributing innovate ideas that I think many beeks are interested in hearing about.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 13, 2012, 09:49:34 pm
Good points Derekm.  Physics does suggest it may be possible to winter small clusters with the right design and proper amounts of insulation.  I am NOT using electric heat in these nucs; just pure insulation.  Rather or not it is practical to overwinter mating nucs, is a completely different question.  As BjornBee correctly noted; who knows what may come about from some individuals running experiments in their garages.  Isn't that how Apple Computer got started?  

I think these nucs would have a much better chance if I followed Derekm's thermal bubble design, but this was a last minute decision to try to overwinter them and I just didn't have time to make a thermal bubble box for them.  As I stated early on, this is just an experiment.  BTW... the 3 living mating nucs still look pretty healthy at this point. 

Oh, it turns out that Mating Nuc #4 is NOT actually dead after all!!!  Maybe Brother Adam is looking over my bees  :angel:
I took the nuc into the heated barn to diagnose them last night, but was too tired to take the thing apart.  So I go out there today and the bees are alive.  I've seen individual chilled bees come back to life before, but this was my first for a whole hive.  There was NOTHING moving in the mating nuc last night; all indications were they were dead.  Bees are pretty amazing little creatures.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: derekm on December 14, 2012, 06:17:56 am
Quick fix :
Build a  foam overbox for hive.
close fitting on hrizontal dimension that does not have entrance,  10mm oversize on dimension that has top entrance. This 10mm gap becomes the new extension to the entrance and converts assy to bottom entrance.

Place hive on  600mm  tall stand  with  horizontal dimension of stand smaller than dimensions of hive.

 Make overbox  internally 200mm taller than existing hive extenal dimension.
tape seal box joints inside and  out.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 15, 2012, 02:12:55 am
Mating Nuc #4 did came back to life after being in the warm barn, but the bees subsequently perished.  A lot of bees had fallen to the bottom of the mating nuc and got stuck in the muck down there.  I didn’t have a drainage hole in the bottom (a mistake on my part).

So tonight I analyzed the dead out and found some interesting things. 

First, the little mating nuc was PACKED with syrup.  That was a surprise because the nucs were VERY VERY light when I retrieved them from the mating yard and put them in the back yard.  Maybe I didn’t need to feed them those honey balls after all? :? 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/Dec12DeadoutFrame1_zps48b19d88.jpg)

With some of my big hives in close proximity I figured these little mating nucs would get robbed out in no time flat.  Seems that was not the case; they held their own.  It was pretty amazing that a colony of less than 1000 bees could bring in so much syrup in just a few days of flyable weather since Thanksgiving Holiday. 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/Dec12DeadoutFrame2_zps2d0e4c03.jpg)

I think the syrup came from the neighbor.  She was feeding her bees syrup because she thought it would be good for them.  I avoid syrup this time of year to prevent the next problem I found…. EGGS! :shock:

Although most of the combs were filled with syrup, her majesty had started laying some eggs as you might be able to see in this photo.  I saw about 30 cells with new eggs.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/Dec12DeadoutEggs_zpsff694055.jpg)
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BGhoney on December 15, 2012, 11:31:40 am
I have never tried honey balls, i just use the newpaper and sugar method.  I wintered a few 3 half deep frames a few years back. they made it through winter but didn't build in the spring and just petered out. I had a foam box over each one.  As earlier stated its not good to promote food collecting in winter but if theres no stores in the hive you have to or they have 0 chance of making it.  These projects do take alot of time but its a good time killer ( and often bee killer ) in the winter.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 15, 2012, 11:51:13 am
Yes, in my case the mating nucs had 0 chance without some feeding (the honey balls) but I was really surprised how much syrup they got from the neighbor.  I saw a lot of activity around the mating nucs on the few flying days we’ve had since Thanksgiving and I was convinced they were getting robbed out.  Turns out I was wrong on that one.

Don’t know what they’ll do in the spring; if they make it.  I’m planning to move away from these mini mating frames and use 4 frame mediums next summer for mating.  Those should be big enough to survive winter with proper insulation and useful come spring.  I’ve got some of them under test this winter too.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 22, 2012, 05:38:00 pm
I checked on the mating nucs today.  The 3 from the last check are still alive.  2 of the 3 seemed to have consumed (or moved) the honey balls I fed them.  It would be kind of nice to give them some more for the Christmas holidays, but it is pretty cold out there....at least for the bee keeper.  :-D

I took more photos, but they're about the same as before.  Interestingly, the bees tend to cluster close to the top entrance for some reason.  You would think they might be more prone to cluster away from the drafty door, but that's not the case. 
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: little john on December 22, 2012, 09:29:01 pm
Quote
I keep a healthy skepticism when people claim THEY know everything based on NN years “experience”.

Indeed. There is a BIG difference between (say) 30 years genuine experience and 1 year's experience times 30.
I found this out the hard way when I took on a guy as crew who told me he had 30 years sailing experience. Imagine my surprise a few days into the trip when we ran into a modest gale - it wasn't a problem as we were well offshore - just a bit lumpy - but the poor sod went all to pieces - turned out he had just been making the same trip along the South Coast each summer for the last 30 years, and had run for cover whenever the barometer started falling. In doing that, he had never gained any experience of conditions outside of his own comfort-zone.

Quote
I have a education in biological researcher in university. The biggest value was during 5 year education that find out, what others know about issue. Contact them and start there where others have finished.

If people were only to do that, then there would never be any novel ways of doing things, only modifications of what went before.

That is why adverts have been seen in the past for maths graduates WITHOUT any previous computer programming experience.
That is why it took a post-Doctoral physicist WITHOUT any experience of astronomy (but who was granted his request for telescope time) to discover new heavenly bodies (black holes an' stuff), where existing scientists had failed.

Sometimes you just need someone with a new set of ideas, a new way of looking at things, someone without a pre-existing set of perceptual filters, to effect a sea change in any discipline.
Such a person will surely make mistakes - that's the essential nature of experiential learning - and from those mistakes one can then proceed to draw conclusions. That is what is meant by gaining experience - as opposed to simply acquiring knowledge from others.

It would be a marked improvement here to see some encouragement for such a person's attempts, rather than the usual carping criticism which I am fairly sure has driven many people away from this forum. It's certainly put the brakes on any discussion I might have had here, regarding one or two plans I have for colony expansion and Queen-raising next year.

LJ
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on December 23, 2012, 07:19:57 am
.

Some are top researhers without education and without experience. They just are for the mercy of God.

But when you know little you know all.

One common thing to these nature born experts is that if I give a reseach link to some issue, they are not able to read or understand their native language. So they must invent their own explanation to all.
.

I am not ashamed what I have written. Most of guys have not even able to evaluate what I have said.

.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 24, 2012, 03:26:45 am
OK, here’s a before and after photo of one of my mini mating nucs.  Note the honey balls have quickly disappeared.  The question is where did they go?  I suspect they moved the food into comb cells, but I don’t know for sure.  This seems like a little too much food (calories) to disappear in a mere 10 days.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/DisappearingHoneyBalls_zps4a8d3f42.jpg)

What do y’all think?  Where did those honey balls go?
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: edward on December 24, 2012, 10:10:28 am
If you had a scale under the hive you could control the weight and you could tell what had happened to the food  ;)

My guess is that they have stored it in the comb cells

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: JRH on December 26, 2012, 05:22:22 pm
Did I miss the answer to "How do you make your honey balls?"
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: weldingfreak6010 on December 26, 2012, 05:43:35 pm
I want to know ab out the honey balls too thanks
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 26, 2012, 10:51:08 pm
Honey balls is my lazy way for supplemental winter feeding.  I posted how I made the things in some other post, but even I can’t find it anymore……so it here goes again.

Get out a big bowl and fill it about 1/3 full of granulated sugar.  Next get some of your extra honey (or known good honey) and pour (or spoon if crystallized) a goob of honey into the bowl of sugar.  Now mix the gooey honey blob in with the sugar until it gains a putty like consistency.  At that point, I stick my paws in the bowl of sugar and kneed in more sugar until all the stickiness of the honey has been absorbed.  The end result in a ball of mostly table sugar held together by honey.  Honey is acting like a binder.  The balls never get rock hard, nor do they ever fall apart.  They just kind of remain in a putty like form.  I do store them in sugar until I use them.  This allows them to harden up a bit more.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/HoneyBallsBowl.jpg)

I shape the honey/sugar mix into a ball form that I can just toss on top of the frames.  However I see no reason why you couldn’t form the stuff into any shape you want:  pancakes, bricks, snakes, gummy bears, whatever.     

I haven’t precisely measured the ratio of honey to sugar in my honey balls, but I would guess they’re about 1 part honey and 3 parts sugar.  It really doesn’t take much honey to make a lot of balls.  The sugar is low cost and the honey makes a nice binder to hold it together.  No cooking, no cooling, and minimum mess in making the things.  As you can see from my before and after photos in this thread, the bees really devour the things.   

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/HoneyBallsDec12.jpg)
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on December 26, 2012, 10:55:44 pm
We got about a half foot of snow so far tonight.  I wonder how my little mini mating nucs are doing? 

According to the weather forecast we're not going to be above 32F/0C for the foreseeable future so I'm not sure when I'll be able to take another peek. If we get a sunny day without wind, I'll try to take another peek inside and snap a photo or two. 
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: CapnChkn on December 29, 2012, 11:42:22 pm
BlueBee, that's absolutely brilliant!

I've actually been using reject honey in an experiment to see if it will keep my 2:1 syrup from crystallizing in the cold.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 05, 2013, 04:47:19 pm
Thanks CapnChkn!

How did the Bee Gees say it?  Ah ah ah Stayin alive.

Must be those honey balls  :)
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 05, 2013, 09:48:22 pm
It wasn’t a very nice day out there again today so I didn’t peek in at all my mini mating nucs, but I figured I would take a peek at Mating Nuc #1 because I figured it probably didn’t survive the last few weeks.  It has been plenty cold enough to kill off small colonies.  We haven’t have a day above freezing in 2 or 3 weeks and virtually no solar gain.

I was amazed to find these girls still alive and looking pretty good.  This mating nuc looked pretty weak the last time I peeked in.  Didn’t look like it had more than 400 or 500 bees.  It actually looked a little bigger today. 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/MatingNuc15Jan13_zpse288f644.jpg)

We’re suppose to get above freezing next week so I’ll check the other mating nucs then. 
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Sparky on January 05, 2013, 10:39:45 pm
I noticed that you have consistently had some moisture drops on the inside of the plastic when you peak in. Do you have any kind of weep holes in the bottoms of the surviving nucs ?
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 05, 2013, 11:01:35 pm
Good catch Sparky.  No I do NOT  :(  I should have done that though.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: edward on January 05, 2013, 11:47:06 pm
I would recommend the "weep holes" on the top ventilated hives.

On the bottom ventilated hives it usually is enough to have them sloping slightly down towards the entrance.

Makes a world of difference between dry dead bees and wet dead bees that start to rot  :-X beefore they can bee cleansed by cleaning bees in the spring.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 06, 2013, 12:23:42 am
Yes, I know that smell.....unfortunately!
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 06, 2013, 01:09:48 am
Perhaps they are clustered @ entrance to prevent heat/moisture loss ?  Honey balls turned to heat to raise brood ? perhaps switch to bottom entrance would reduce consumption/drain excess moisture ?
Cheers,
Drew
 
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 06, 2013, 01:27:19 am
Drew, they had some capped brood at Thanksgiving.  Generally I believe my queens stop laying eggs in any significant amount by mid October.  I don’t make a habit of pulling frames from all the hives, so I don’t know that to be fact, but on the occasions that I have pulled frames that is what I have observed.

This year my neighbor was feeding her bees (and mine) with sugar water at Thanksgiving and evidently my bees were getting quite a bit of it.  I discovered that when I examined mating nuc #4 that died out.  It did have some eggs in it.  Odds are the other nucs may have done some brooding too.  However there just isn’t much pollen in those little mating nucs so I don’t think they’re going to be able to raise any significant amount of brood until the willows bloom in the spring.  An interesting side note, I found some more dead drones outside my jumbos today.  For whatever reason, those jumbos maintain drones year round.

It is way too cold to be pulling frames now.  There’s snow on the ground and it is below freezing. 
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 06, 2013, 02:14:48 am
They all have top entrances ? the jumbos to ? Do me a personal favor with one of those nucs and seal the top tight, add 2" more insulation to 6 sides, 4" more to the top(overlap joints) and drill 1" entrance in bottom :) I think they can make it fine, if you think they are low on pollen put a teaspoon of whole wheat flour in, I'll bet it goes the way of the honey balls.

 you have 2 ? switch one up I'll bet 1$ it comes out gangbusters in spring :)
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: edward on January 06, 2013, 09:19:36 am
One way of checking if a hive has an egg laying queen and brood is to put your hand over the ball of bees.
If it is warm it will most likely bee beecause the bees have a brood nest to keep warm.

Hives that don't have any brood will not waste there energy on excess heat and will bee cooler.

Hives that don't have larvae to feed don't need pollen under the winter, in the spring when new pollen comes into the hive is is a start signal to start laying eggs again.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 06, 2013, 11:07:15 am
I concur and from the looks of the condensation in pics it is toasty in there !
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 06, 2013, 01:06:15 pm
Hives that don't have any brood will not waste there energy on excess heat and will bee cooler.

Good point Edward.  I think that may also explain some of the top cover condensation problems I’m seeing.  The bees simply are not generating as much heat this time of year (broodless), so the top of the hives cool down below the dew point and water vapor starts to condense up there.  I put my hand over the combs of a few nucs yesterday and they were noticeably cooler than in Nov.  I don’t believe they’re brooding right now.

Drew, the Jumbos and Mating nucs all have top entrances.  The fact that the mating nucs are still alive with only around 500 bees suggests the heat loss through the single small top entrance (9mmx15mm in the mating nucs) in a foam hive isn’t excessive.  If it were, they would all be dead by now.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 06, 2013, 03:33:38 pm
but you have other similar hives with bottom entrances yes ? your thoughts on comparisons would be interesting to me
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: WarPonyFarms on March 19, 2013, 10:38:48 pm
Ok, I have to ask how it's going? I've never attemped to winter my mini's without supers so I've been keeping a close watch on your results.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Georgia Boy on March 20, 2013, 12:09:07 am
Ok BlueBee,

Your last post was Jan 6th, it is now Mar 19th.

Whats up!!!!!

This is like reading a book and you get to the back only to see the last pages have been torn out...

WTH..

We need to know the ending.

Please up date.

Thanks

David
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on March 20, 2013, 03:50:44 pm
The baby mating nucs didn’t make it through the 3rd wave of 0F temps.  They croaked in mid February. 

I was a little surprised because they were looking good before that 3rd wave of 0s (-18C).  They had a good proportion of bees relative to the size of the boxes;  4 half sized medium frames.  They didn’t run out of stores and they didn’t have mites, they simply froze.  More insulation or just a little supplemental heat on those 0F nights, and I’m certain they would have survived.

I had to bump the insulation up to about 2” of foam to get them to survive this long.  For my operation and climate it just doesn’t make sense to insulate beyond that.  It just gets too costly and bulky.  I think a better strategy for wintering the mating nucs is to either add a little supplemental electric heat on the really cold nights and/or make the mating nucs a little larger.  That’s my plan for next winter. 
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on March 20, 2013, 03:54:11 pm
The baby mating nucs didn’t make it through the 3rd wave of 0F temps.  They croaked in mid February. 

I was a little surprised because they were looking good before that 3rd wave of 0s (-18C).  They had a good proportion of bees relative to the size of the boxes;  4 half sized medium frames.  They didn’t run out of stores and they didn’t have mites, they simply froze.  More insulation or just a little supplemental heat on those 0F nights, and I’m certain they would have survived.

I had to bump the insulation up to about 2” of foam to get them to survive this long.  For my operation and climate it just doesn’t make sense to insulate beyond that.  It just gets too costly and bulky.  I think a better strategy for wintering the mating nucs is to either add a little supplemental electric heat on the really cold nights and/or make the mating nucs a little larger.  That’s my plan for next winter. 


They did not stand you honey balls. Bemenber what I said.

I can tell you that it is not possible to over winter bees in mating nucs in your winter.

.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on March 20, 2013, 04:05:12 pm
LOL, those bees LOVED my honey balls!  They ate every last one. :)

Finski, the last time I checked, I had 6 of 8 4 frame medium boxes of bees alive.  Many people here call a 4 frame box a “mating nuc”, so I would have to proclaim you're WRONG. :-D  It’s OK to be wrong on occasion, we’re only human after all. :)   I'm even wrong sometimes. ;)

The boxes that froze were my MINI mating nucs, they use 4 HALF medium frames and hold about 500 to 800 bees.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Georgia Boy on March 20, 2013, 08:57:03 pm
Sorry to hear about losing the bees.  Better luck next year. I like you like to test the waters myself even when everyone says you are crazy.  We just might stumble on to something that no one else has.

Keep Trying No Matter What ANYONE else says.

I applaud your efforts.  X:X X:X X:X X:X X:X X:X X:X

David
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: Finski on March 21, 2013, 12:59:42 am
you're WRONG. :-D  

My 50 y experience and your 3 y experience where all small colonies were dead, of course I am wrong

My 25 y experience with polyhives, and your no experience, of course I am wrong.

My biology researcher education in Helsinki University is mere joke. I hanged there for fun 6 years.


There are people who can learn from others' experience...

There people who from his mistakes

then, there are people who repeat their mistakes.

.
may honeyballs be with you!  

Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on March 21, 2013, 01:45:21 am
Thanks GeorgiaBoy, I like your attitude. :)

Unfortunately if bee keepers were running this world, we would still be riding horses to work and using whale oil for lights.
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: oblib on March 21, 2013, 10:00:12 am

Unfortunately if bee keepers were running this world, we would still be riding horses to work and using whale oil for lights.


Whale oil??? I aint using no new fangled stuff like whale oil. Just use the beeswax candles for light. It was good enough for my great great great gandpa and it's good enough for us. :-D
Title: Re: Wintering Mating Nucs
Post by: RHBee on March 22, 2013, 10:28:36 pm
BlueBee,
I'm sure sorry to hear about what happened. I was pulling for your success. You guys have some pretty brutal weather up there. I don't believe I can keep a colony that small down here due to the SHB. Good try.
Ray