Is it possible to br cruel to bees?

[T Beek]

Huh?  No contradiction at all Scadsobees (please allow me to show you the big picture :-D). I'm serious.

Certainly humans can/do intentionally cause harm while unconscious (happens all the time 'if' thought about).  Its what most people do every day (Picture mall-rats as an example).  

Most people sleepwalk through life oblivious to the harm inflicted by themselves (either personally or w/ a proxy) and/or those around them upon others.  

It is this 'very human' ability that keeps most of us from insanity, a realm I remain very familiar with :)

So I must respectfully disagree with your assertion and reaffirm this one; "People can/do commit acts of cruelty even when unconscious."   Its how we are able to clear the mind of the terrible things we do.

Your argument presumes that humanity somehow 'deserves' the ultimate authority over life, all life (a common justification for committing terrible acts of cruelty) just because we can.  That belief/attitude will not (has not) saved us from ourselves yet and has actually allowed our human condition to manifest into our current predicament whereby most humans have become too fearful to venture very far into the natural world.  

Sadly, the disconnect is nearly complete for many.  It is the disconnect that allows 'some' to ignore the pain they've brought upon other lifeforms, that and the never-ending pursuit of...........(name your poison).

Should I continue?   We might have to start another thread :-D

thomas

[SEEYA]

Of Course, one can be cruel to any living thing. Cruelty is the act itself not the results. When you kill the queen - you are being cruel to that bee. NOW when the hive kills the Queen are they being cruel?

[T Beek]

Sorry but no.  Only humans have the capacity or inclination for cruelty.  The example with bees is survival for the colony not cruelty.

Personally I embrace the method of never 'intentionally' killing queens, but that brings me back to my original premise; That beekeeping itself is cruel, especially if keeping them far from where they'd likely prefer (the tropics).  Humans use/exploit the bees inherent ability to survive harsh conditions in order to keep them wherever "we" want.  

That is cruel by definition.

We can/do justify what we do (that's being human) by researching and using the absolute best beekeeping practices available and incorporating them into our bee colonies, but even that only lessens our cruelty toward bees.

thomas

[BlueBee]

beekeeping itself is cruel, especially if keeping them far from where they'd likely prefer (the tropics).

Isn’t this one of the reasons why Finski says to INSULATE your bees from the cold?

My bees don't suffer from the cold  :)

[T Beek]

Thanks BluBee I knew someone would come along and prove some of the points I'm trying to bring to the surface.

I always thought it was Finski's primary justification and reasoning behind keeping bees in Finland (its always at the forefront of his arguments), along with his insistant claims that he's keeping bees the best way or the right way, all while attacking others regardless of their own results.  Not really sure what's going on with Finski sometimes ;) he can sometimes contradict himself in the same thread, a shame for one with so much to offer.

Sorry, but I found your claim that 'your bees don't suffer from cold' a bit ridicules, no offence intended but you might want to think that one over :-D.  Unless you moved them indoors :?

Keep it up though, you may convince me to insulate my hives yet :)  I am actually considering ways to keep syrup warm inside the hive, a step in your direction.  I absolutely love this conversation 8-)

thomas

[FRAMEshift]

Hair, the Musical:  lyrics of Easy to be Hard

Sing it with me now!   :-D

How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
Easy to be hard
Easy to be cold

How can people have no feelings
How can they ignore their friends
Easy to be proud
Easy to say no

[T Beek]

There it is, brother :)  There's actually some really good points to ponder further in the lyric (related to social injustice and the like) but the meaning comes through very well with the selected verses.

thomas

[Scadsobees]

I don't disagree that we can cause great harm unintentionally, but you were calling that cruelty.

And you also said that cruelty requires intent.

Intent unintentionally?

So if keeping bees is cruel, what about cultivating lettuce?  That lettuce didn't choose to grow there, and we kill it to eat it.  Dead!  Then we exploit the masses of bacteria in our gut, use them to break down our food, and then cruelly expel them to their death a day later without any concern as to their well being.

That definition of cruelty is silly.

We use the bees, but also keep the bee safe.  That is a symbiotic relationship.  They give something to us and we protect them.  And yes, there are times that we abuse them.

BTW, there are plenty of wild bees around here.  So non-tropical can't be a basis of cruelty :-P

[VolunteerK9]

and then cruelly expel them to their death a day later

Only a day later? Man, I need some more  lettuce. LoL

[T Beek]

Without the assist from humans 'wild or feral honeybees' would very likely perish from most areas beyond the equator.

As for (domestic/indigenous) bees in general, well that's a bit different don't you think?  I mean, we don't keep them (well I guess some do), they choose where they live and where doing so long before we came around.  I'm afraid I don't understand that comparison, or the lettuce one honestly.

Cruelty, whether intentional (conscious) or not (sleepwalking/in denial) is still cruelty "IMO."  But that's just me, don't let me try to convince anyone, I'm just relaying data from my own perspective, its all anyone can do really.

While few would 'intentionally' occupy other peoples homelands, slaughter their civilians, destroy their cities and take control of their resources, it is still an endeavor undertaken with great glee (and having little to do with survival) from many within the herd of humanity, even when accomplished against our own best interests.      


thomas

[Scadsobees]

An act of cruelty requires intent. 

If one intentionally (consciously or not) harms another (human or any other life form) that is cruelty.  That includes stepping on an ant IMO.

Sorry thomas, I guess I'm still hung up on these 2 comments.  You didn't include an OR statement, they still stand in opposition to each other.

And to remove intent by saying that accidentally stepping on an ant is cruelty, you've just stated that every living creature is cruel and removed any onus from cruelty whatsoever, since I'm sure even the noble elephant will occasionally meander onto an innocent ant colony and unintentionally obliterate it from the face of this cruel earth. 

(The lettuce reference was about keeping an organism in a place it might not naturally be or the optimum environment before killing it, and the bacteria reference is about unintentionally killing an organism, even a whole civilization of these organisms, after its use to us is over, although I sometimes participate with great glee :-D)

And for the record....they're called "Italians", "Russians", "European", and "carniolans" because that is the area that they are from.  And that isn't near the equator, about the same level on the globe as we are.  Feel free to look it up.  Fly straight east, and you'll fly over the areas where the majority of our bees originated.  I realize that most areas the climate is different somehow, but in many of the areas the climate is just as harsh.

Our bees don't choose where they live, we do, although sometimes we can make it so inhospitable to them that they leave.

[T Beek]

I consider sleepwalking through life/following the herd/living in denial  'intentional' choices (the easy way of excusing our participation in the slaughter) and that seems to be what you keep missing in the examples provided.  Its no one persons  fault and there's no one to blame besides this crazy culture we've created and largely embraced for ourselves at our own peril.  It may yet cause an evolutionary tipping point, who knows?  Just hope its not too late.......for us that is, the planet will survive.  

I guess I'd have to say that accidents aren't intentional unless your sleeping/drugging/drinking :-D behind the wheel.

At this stage of the game I don't believe in innocent bystanders, because if you're just standing by you're not innocent.  Future generations will undoubtedly curse us for being too stubborn to save the world for future life.

And that's all OK man, as said I'm not trying to convince anyone into seeing the world as I do (that's my problem).  We're all here to learn, right?

Its been a lot of fun so far 8-)

thomas

[derekm]

I promised to say the UK beeks said and perhaps not surprisingly  they are very similar to here. The same reaction about the thread making them re-think about what they did, almost identical arguments and positions...
my post was:

My basic views come from growing up (a long time ago) in a farming community where strangely to some, farmers, love their livestock yet send it to slaughter and being brought up with animals (My reactions to cerain situations seem to be more dog/pack animal like than anything).
My position is: if i take care of an animal I should ensure it does not suffer unnecessarily, separated from the fact I might kill it. If i kill it I should not waste it.
E.g. I like pigs, I could see having one as a pet, they are intelligent, responsive animals. I eat pigs, I butcher them on my kitchen table. I want the pigs I eat to had lived well and not suffered.
Bees, The more I research, the more I find bees are not simple automata. The more I am with bees the more I learn they have depth in their behaviour. After seeing a bee on my wrist then react to the movement and then still obviously relax, I find I must extend the same treatment to bees as all livestock. It may have six legs but it is (especially as colony) a sophisticated being, it deserves the respect of being treated as such.
I need to to be able to look the the animals/insects in my care the eye if I kill them, and then be able to look at myself in the mirror and say I did well by them.

[T Beek]

Well said :).  Our pigs always receive the utmost love and care (and a bottle of homebrew before the killing is done).

thomas