Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Stone on November 25, 2011, 10:44:24 pm
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Is this a good idea? In another thread, someone mentioned that he will be feeding his bees pollen patties soon. I had always thought this should be done in spring to boost brood production, and during late summer or fall dearths. What would be the reason to feed bees pollen in winter?
Dadant has a "winter pattie" with only 3% protein which seems like a good idea. I'll be ordering some of those, but wouldn't pollen patties in winter encourage brood rearing when you wouldn't want it? Would like to know your thoughts.....
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depending on where you live they can continue to raise brood even when temps drop, Im feeding patties right now, you should have pollen stores through winter, 4 to 6 frames here. If your not sure, check stores, if have dont it give it to them. its hard to get them to take it when to cold so the earlier the better. May be to late for ya up there. Raising brood is a good thing which will give you winter bees. i still have brood but its been warm
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My opinion would be that your location would determine whether feeding pollen patties at this time of year is a good or bad idea.
In the north where it is now getting to cold for forage flights (there is nothing to forage on if it were warm enough) and much colder weather coming I would think it would be a bad idea. Main reason being if they get to much brood under production and a serious cold snap rolls in they could easily freeze out desperately trying to keep the brood warm, consuming all the available honey within reach. Another reason it would not be a good idea is that they may consume to much of their winter stores and starve later. If they were short on pollen stores it should have been feed already. If they had plenty of pollen available in the fall before foraging activity ceased then no substitute is needed anyway.
If you are in the south where it remains warm enough for brood production but forage is not available or it is warm enough that freezing out is not a real threat but its to cold for any productive forage flights then I see no harm in feeding. Anytime you can encourage rearing of young bees to support the winter cluster without threatening the health of the colony it would be of benefit.
Another issue to be aware of is that brood rearing requires an ample amount of water, if they start rearing g brood and dont have enough water, the brood will die, and brood disease is likely going to be a result. Many believe condensation is the enemy in winter. Is it really?
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those patties at 3% arent going to give you a explosion of brood--they are designed as a emergency feeding for light hives - they are basically a carbohydrate patty with a little protein -they are inspired by the mountain camp method of dry sugar feeding that has become so popular-it all depends what your needs are-for brood rearing there are many patties off the shelf that run 12%-19% protein-these are good for build up- whether to increase population going into winter-or a boost at spring to increase population before the flow--so if you just want to give them some healthy stores to hedge your bets for winter survival they should do you well--RDY-B
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Winter patties are mixing beekeepers heads.
Lack on pollen tells that winter is coming. Prepare for winter rest.
In cluster bees eate some amount pollen. Poo is full on empty pollen cells.Honey has only energy and pollen has other nutritiens..
Cluster goes over winter without pollen but it is not able to start brooding before they get pollen from nature.
Bees need winter rest. So they are in better condition than bees which beekeeper has disturbed the whole winter with his emergency operations.
It is very different when hives are in California on in New York. It is different too if hives are 1000 / hectare or 5 per hectare. Have you in December 20C day temp or 0C.
I start pollen feeding in spring about 3-4 weeks before willow starts blooming.
When new bees emerge, they get new fresh pollen from nature and they will grow to good brood feeders.
If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalkbrood then.
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Hey thanks Finski. Excellent explantion and insight 8-)
thomas
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Hey thanks Finski. Excellent explantion and insight 8-)
thomas
Kiitos Thomas!
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Winter patties are mixing beekeepers heads.
Lack on pollen tells that winter is coming. Prepare for winter rest.
In cluster bees eate some amount pollen. Poo is full on empty pollen cells.Honey has only energy and pollen has other nutritiens..
Cluster goes over winter without pollen but it is not able to start brooding before they get pollen from nature.
Bees need winter rest. So they are in better condition than bees which beekeeper has disturbed the whole winter with his emergency operations.
It is very different when hives are in California on in New York. It is different too if hives are 1000 / hectare or 5 per hectare. Have you in December 20C day temp or 0C.
I start pollen feeding in spring about 3-4 weeks before willow starts blooming.
When new bees emerge, they get new fresh pollen from nature and they will grow to good brood feeders.
If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalkbrood then.
we would never feed that winter paty in california -its all sugar-no pollen in poo-- :lol: RDY-B
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no pollen in poo :lol: RDY-B
1) you have not winter in California
2) you have too much bees in california. Bees do not learn what is flower
3) pollen takes 4 hours to melt in rectum. You must wake up earlier in the morning to study poo.
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**If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalk-brood then.**
You need to change the PH of your mix- 8-) (use citric acid crystals)--also to eliminate your NOSEMA problem you need to add
secrete OAK tannin-oak tannin poses static charge and repel pathogen and also make intestine lining leathery so pathogen
can not penetrate--your bees must be strong with high protein reserves in body fat to make it through long sleep
the bees are what they eat--full-of poo or not-- :loll: RDY-B
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**If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalk-brood then.**
You need to change the PH of your mix- 8-) (use citric acid crystals)--also to eliminate your NOSEMA problem you need to add
secrete OAK tannin-oak tannin poses static charge and repel pathogen and also make intestine lining leathery so pathogen
can not penetrate--your bees must be strong with high protein reserves in body fat to make it through long sleep
the bees are what they eat--full-of poo or not-- :loll: RDY-B
that has nothing to do with the fact that bees need water to make larva milk.
I have said nothing about my nosema.
You just don't understand what I am writing. You have permanent summer there.
Poo in they arse becomes from the fact that bees are all the time in the hive 5-6 months and cannot come out. I ment only with that , that bees love to eate pollen during long winter.
When I start in Spring patty feeding, bees eate a huge amount protein even if they do not have yet brood. It tells too that bees need protein, vitamins etc during winter.
But not in he form of patty.
We here cannot do nothing to bees before cleansing flight. If you disturb them, they come out to die on snow.
Small cluster will be filled sooner because they must work harder to keep the heat.
59 years beekeeping and 20 years patty feeding .. Difficult to make better. ...
I have taken recipes from US laboratory researches and patty works fine.
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**I have said nothing about my nosema.**
no not in this post-but i follow your posts and you have brought this to light many times
**You have permanent summer there.**
then how is it possible for me to raise the long lived winter bees that bring me to first bloom
yes its a matter of timing for you and your snow bond bees-However feeding pollen supplement in
late summer at a heavy rate will give you copious amounts of brood-of which your hives will be populated with
long lived winter bees-we all know it is very easy to bring large hives through winter-its the small ones that perish
I think we have to look at what is being feed-it makes a big difference -all sub is not created equal-what the poster is asking about is a patty that is 97% sugar-If you are going to explore pollen supplement -or emergency feeding-you need to learn what these mean in benefit for the circumstance at hand-we cant compare how the sub you are feeding at any given time to what the poster is asking about-here is what the manufacture has to say about there product----
**Dadant winter patties. For those colonies running light on stores and those needing to feed in emergency situations we at Dadant have come out with winter patties. These carbohydrate patties contain Honey Bee Healthy and Mega Bee and run around 3% protein. 3-4 patties can be fed at a time when using standard 10 frame equipment. It is advised to use a 2 inch spacer rim (B10004) on top of the brood chambers allowing room for the bees to get up and around the patties for easier consumption. Can be fed throughout the winter months and into early spring when warm enough to open the hive. Sold in 40 lb. boxes.**
i think that these could save alot of keepers that are caught with light hives from a bad experience--
the part that i dont like about these patties are that you are paying a premium price for basically sugar--however i believe that the added supplements will aid in consumption rate-- ;) RDY-B
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I suppose that your 3% winter protein meening is to help hives over short winter that CDD does not burst in the hive. Latest knowledge is that hives are active in a warm weather and try to find food. They have brood and larva feeding takes nutrients from bee body if they do not get pollen.
you have thousands of hives in small areas and hives do not get there food.
USA is only country which has CCD. It is (probably) only country which moves so much hives into small areas to over winter.
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I have nosema problems but nosema makes its dirty job before I start the patty feeding. I see it when some hives do not start to eate patty. Nosema has spoiled bees gut and they cannot feed larvae. Later, when I give a frame of emerging bees from strong healthy hive, thy get new nurser bees and brood rearing starts.
Genetics of beestock has something to do with that problem too. Some have better resistancy than others.
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I feed patty 2 months. April has not much pollen sources. In May almost only pollen source is willow. Willow as protein source is light. It has only 15% raw protein.
At the end of May a vast variety of plants are in bloom and bees get balanced pollen mixture. Then they stop patty eating
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**I suppose that your 3% winter protein meaning is to help hives over short winter that CDD does not burst in the hive**
if you are feeding the 3% winter patty as a EMERGENCY feed because your hive is light on stores then it also is likely that your bees are protein deficient -small amount of protein will restore deficacy-but at the same time it is such a small amount -it wont overload the bees gut-bee can deal with this small amount even if snow bound
** you have thousands of hives in small areas and hives do not get there food.**
they dont have adequate forage ---because its WINTER-HELLO FINSKI ITS WINTER -there is no bloom-- :lol:
** nosema makes its dirty job before I start the patty feeding.**
If you feed sub BEFORE your hive makes its BROOD NEST TURN from sumer bees to long lived winter bees
your bees will be rich with protein enriched body fat and hypngernal glands will be full of the best quality
bee milk which will be passed through out the colony at its need-also if you take this time and treat with
a natural product -you have the benefit of AVOIDING the nosema that comes at winters end-your bees are weakened from the STRESS of a long winter-(I have said before you need strong bees for winters sleep) if bees go into winter protein deprived they are going to suffer many perils-here is a link to one of many products that have the oak tannin
http://www.nozevit.com/Product%20Info.htm (http://www.nozevit.com/Product%20Info.htm)
** I feed patty 2 months. April has not much pollen sources**
this is good for you-but your bees must be in fit condition in order for this to benefit-otherwise they wont even consume the protein they need --- :) RDY-B
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I read about vitellogenin. It exist in vast group of animal which make eggs. It is female protein.
In bees it exist in wintering bees but not in them when they emerge. Bees accumulate protein precursor to their head for winter. Probably it is a protein reserve and used when cluster has no contact to pollen stores. Otherwise they use pollen as protein resource.
That is a theoretical meaning to give protein during winter. But I think that it is some kind of emergency food. It is not needed before these days.
I try to put 2 pollen frames for winter cluster. I situate them so that bees use it in early spring.
Red clover is here amost only pollen source in Autumn. It blooms in Autumn if it has bee cut in July.
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yes yes-the vitillogen is stored in body fat-the protein stored in head is related to hypogernal gland
bee milk is feed to emerging bees as well as protein starved forage bees when colony needs forage bee
to rejuvenate for house duties -it is a fail safe for colony survival--
if your bees are coming off of a seasonal honey flow before brood nest turn -those bees are depleted from
these reserves and need to be recharged for the best wintering bee possible-- ;) RDY-B
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To rear winter bees they have special system. A strong hive has almost one box full of pollen when blooming ceases. After that Italian bees consume almost the whole that pollen store to make winter bees. A month later pollen store is gone. Carniolan leaves more pollen over winter and with that it gets a fast spring build up.
I use 3 brood box system. At the end of main yield the lowest box has pollen. Second and third have brood. When yield is over, I reduce the en trance. The queen descend to the lowest box and they start to consume pollen stores.
When I feed spring patty to Italians, their build up is as fast as Carniolans'.
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**I use 3 brood box system. At the end of main yield the lowest box has pollen.**
sounds good -but what if the bottom box has no pollen
If i run triple deep i get brood and honey in all 3 boxes--less honey for harvest -run two chamber-or even single
harvest large yield and replace sticky box for brood expansion --no pollen box-it dose not always get full--RDY-B
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**I use 3 brood box system. At the end of main yield the lowest box has pollen.**
sounds good -but what if the bottom box has no pollen
If i run triple deep i get brood and honey in all 3 boxes--less honey for harvest -run two chamber-or even single
harvest large yield and replace sticky box for brood expansion --no pollen box-it dose not always get full--RDY-B
i move the hives to such places that they have pollen and honey
let's look my balance hive. It was medium size case but on good, unlimited pastures.
The hive had 5 langstroths + 3 mediums. It drew 4 box of foundations. It brught honey 140 kg in 5 weeks. When we notice the drawn foundations, one langstrot box needs 6-8 kg honey to draw combs. 4 x 6 =24 more to 140 kg.
Yes, they collect pollen every year. They get honey too every year. The bigger hive the biger yield.
But good yield comes from good pastures.
The balance hive brought during a best week every day 7 kg . 7x7=49 kg in one week. They had no larvae durint that week.
What was the hive density? Two hives and 7 hectares canola, fire weeds, aphid honey and what ever. We had a special weather in last summer.
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**The balance hive brought during a best week every day 7 kg . 7x7=49 kg in one week.**
with that yield you can draw wax and fill a deep in one week-thats very cool --need more weeks like that one EHH- ;)
** What was the hive density? Two hives and 7 hectares canola, fire weeds, aphid honey and what ever. We had a special weather in last summer.**
7 hectare =17 acres--your forage can support many more hives than two per 17 acres--minimum 8 hives
if it where me i would do a drop every mile at 30 hives--RDY-B
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I use 2 hives per mile. If you have a canola field, it blooms only 2 weeks. What then?
If weather is too dry, canola gives nothing.
Mixture of flowers gives the aroma of yield.
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yes two sides to every coin- 8-) RDY-B
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yes two sides to every coin- 8-) RDY-B
the winners write the history
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yes two sides to every coin- 8-) RDY-B
the winners write the history
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If you're short of trouble take a goat!-- ;) RDY-B
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I read about vitellogenin. It exist in vast group of animal which make eggs. It is female protein.
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more people are starting to understand what this means-today this came across my desk--RDY-B
http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=e7b85d3fce&e=%5BUNIQID%5D (http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=e7b85d3fce&e=%5BUNIQID%5D)
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Heli Havukainen is a Finnish name. Who she is?. I did not found her earlier works from google.
It seems that she works in chemistry area rather than in beekeeping.
however Havukainen's work has been noticed widely in the world.
In internet/world are many kind of researches about vitallogenin.
.........
That name
Havu = needle twig
kainen = means nothing but it tells that man's family origin is from Eastern Finland
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vitillogen? Is this something that can be feed to the bees or is it something the bee makes itself with proteins or what? Interesting. I will have to search it and hopefully find the answer.
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Interesting link, thanks.
thomas
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vitillogen? Is this something that can be feed to the bees or is it something the bee makes itself with proteins or what? Interesting. I will have to search it and hopefully find the answer.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/bee-nutrition/ (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/bee-nutrition/)
**What if I told you that there was one amazing molecule in the honeybees’ bodies that allows them to store protein reserves, make royal jelly, promotes the longevity of queen and “winter” bees, is a part of their immune system, allows them to brood up in spring in the absence of pollen, and has an effect upon their foraging behavior? Surely you’d want to be familiar with such an important molecule!**
Its name? Vitellogenin
;) RDY-B
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That is real children fairytales. It is more poetry than science.
If you read wikipedia, it says it better.
Vitellogening exist in all animals which produce eggs. birds, fishes, nematodes....It it precursor of protein. Nothing more.
You get a scientific research into you hands and you deliver fairytales.
That is big waste.
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Put into google "amino acids of vitellogenin" , you get some idea what the stuff is
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http://scientificbeekeeping.com/bee-nutrition/ (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/bee-nutrition/)
*** Vitellogenin
O.K., in my roundabout way, I’m finally going to get to my point. Bees not only store pollen and honey in the combs, but they also store food reserves in their bodies. This is done mainly in the form of a compound called “vitellogenin.” vitellogenin is classed as a “glycolipoprotein,” meaning that is has properties of sugar (glyco, 2%), fat (lipo, 7%), and protein (91%) (Wheeler & Kawooya 2005). Vitellogenin is used by other animals as an egg yolk protein precurser, but bees have made it much more important in their physiology and behavior, using it additionally as a food storage reservoir in their bodies, to synthesize royal jelly, as an immune system component, as a “fountain of youth” to prolong queen and forager lifespan, as well as functioning as a hormone that affects future foraging behavior!
This is a great example of the conservatism of evolution. Just as the same genes that code for a fish’s fins also code for a dog’s paw, a human hand, or a bird or bat’s wing, bees have expanded the role of vitellogenin to perform multiple functions in their systems. They are able to do this because most of the bees in a colony are sterile females who rarely lay eggs. Therefore, they have the mechanism to produce this egg yolk precurser, but no use for it. So instead, they deposit it in fat bodies in the abdomen and head.***
:) RDY-B
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That is real children fairytales. It is more poetry than science.
If you read wikipedia, it says it better.
Vitellogening exist in all animals which produce eggs. birds, fishes, nematodes....It it precursor of protein. Nothing more.
You get a scientific research into you hands and you deliver fairytales.
That is big waste.
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Put into google "amino acids of vitellogenin" , you get some idea what the stuff is
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http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0050062 (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0050062)
:tumbleweed: RDY-B
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Sooooo for us bee keepers in Texas when would be a good time to give them some pollen patties?
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best time to increase protein levels is right after the flow just before the brood nest makes its transition to winter bees-
this will insure the new bees being reared for the dormant period will have the benefit of a strong immune system as well
as a layer of fat in there bodies from which reserves are drawn during stress--sept-oct works in my environment-the more you feed the more brood will be reared-most off the shelf patties dont have enough cholesterol for extended brood rearing
they will give you about three rounds of brood---you dont have to go hole hog to get the benefit -two -three patties during this period will make for protein charged bees -and happy beekeepers-your bees will be well on there way during the spring build up period -will others are playing catch up--RDY-B
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best time to increase protein levels is right after the flow just before the brood nest makes its transition to winter bees-
i have kept bees on woodland pastures, where fire weed is only practical plant to bees. When its blooming ceases, larva feeding ceases too.
Another alternative - which I have followed- is to keep hive in sites, where the are able to get pollen from red clover fields and from fresh cutted wood areas (gold rod). In July bees get the main store of pollen and in August ( Sept is here Autumn) they get something but not much.
To give patty in Autumn has leeded into catastrophe in my trials. Bees were not able to winter. If they get pollen from nature of from hive, they do not eate patty.
But I have nursed bees 35 years withouth "high pollen knowledge" and bees did well. At least in my country 99% of beekeepers do not understand protein or aminoacid issues and bees take care themselves. Your knowlegde about vitellogenin may be totally wrong, but it does not affect on bees. Actually two days ago I read what it is.
if you have not enough pastures to your bees, it will not save your bees if you feed them with patty and sugar. You cannot keep horse neither if you have not field. So simple.
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:) finski you brag about your superior forage and then tell me about not being able to keep bees
unless there is forage to support bees---this simply is not true--most keepers hobby or otherwise yearn
for a better amount of forage for our bees--but we still keep bees and do our best to keep them healthy
feeding protein sub is a big leg up when it comes to this task--you have kept your head in the sand about this and i understand your reluctance to open your mind- 8-) --but there are people in finland that keep bees for a living and
there families lively hood --your methods are not the way to achieve this--its not finskis way that dictates the success of these keepers- :lol: rather they move forward and become in tune with there bees needs--theres more to it than-how do you put it?-ah yes --BEES IN THERE CABINS FOR LONG WINTER SLEEP ;) -nutrion is so importat for all living things-my bees are my livstock i give them every advantage i can aford them--what your saying about horses is way off the mark also
you at your keyboard are loseing perspective --I think its the delivery system for the nutrition that you are having trouble with-do you even comunicate with the keepers in finland or are you lone wolf against there advances- and dont try and make some atempt to cloud the isue with the whether report - :-P RDY-B
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:) finski you brag about your superior forage and then tell me about not being able to keep bees
unless there is forage to support bees---this simply is not true--most keepers hobby or otherwise yearn
for a better amount of forage for our bees--but we still keep bees and do our best to keep them healthy
feeding protein sub is a big leg up when it comes to this task--you have kept your head in the sand about this and i understand your reluctance to open your mind- 8-) --
i have feeded 20 years pollen in spring to bees..
Now i have feeded 8 years pollen+yeast+soya flour +vitamins.
If you get 150 kg honey from one hive in one month, let me know.
Rugby, you have nothing what you can teach me
head in sand he heh he..
don't teach duck to swim.
we are very few in Finlad who feed patty to bees in Spring. I have been a Key Person to teach it.
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** i have feeded 20 years pollen in spring to bees..**
and you rely on pollen box in the fall-problem is that is when they start to shut down
and consumption is slow-even the bee knows when to start consuming there reserves-
** Now i have feeded 8 years pollen+yeast+soya flour +vitamins.**
yea nutrition how aboout that-- :lol:
**we are very few in Finlad who feed patty to bees in Spring. I have been a Key Person to teach it.**
yes and they tell me you fall down in snow- :lol:
**If you get 150 kg honey from one hive in one month, let me know.**
Still braging about that one time harvest bounansa
hee hee-very funy-you will be a better keeper when i get done with you -- :lol:--whether you admit it or not
poor duck swims backward--american beekeepers will feed you bread crumbs so you will fly some day-- ;) RDY-B
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To rear winter bees they have special system. A strong hive has almost one box full of pollen when blooming ceases. After that Italian bees consume almost the whole that pollen store to make winter bees. A month later pollen store is gone. Carniolan leaves more pollen over winter and with that it gets a fast spring build up.
I use 3 brood box system. At the end of main yield the lowest box has pollen. Second and third have brood. When yield is over, I reduce the en trance. The queen descend to the lowest box and they start to consume pollen stores.
When I feed spring patty to Italians, their build up is as fast as Carniolans'.
special tutoring for finski------basics of pollen box--RDY-B
http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20Copies/NCB%20BC%20Sep%202004.pdf (http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20Copies/NCB%20BC%20Sep%202004.pdf)
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[quote author=rdy-b link=topic=35404.msg295165#msg295165 date=1322967064
special tutoring for finski------basics of pollen box--RDY-B
http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20Copies/NCB%20BC%20Sep%202004.pdf (http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20Copies/NCB%20BC%20Sep%202004.pdf)
[/quote]
You use Randy Oliver's writings and that "eternal student writer's" basics.
I read original researches when I study honey bee nutrition.
What do you have in your advanced basket?
I do not mind read ordinary beekeeper's "common sense" stories. They are so many and nothing to learn.
When I read 50 years ago beekeeping books, they already knew that the more protein in wintering bees, the better winterers. And protein comes from pollen.
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De Groot revieled bees' need of amino acids in the year 1953.
Job was so well done that information works 60 years later.
Australians have made good industrial level researches about pollen and about bee nutrition during last 15 years.
It seems that who ever can use "scientific beekeeper" title and other believe that "really !".
We have found just now some "false medician dortors" in our country.
You better find your "false beekeeping doctors" from your country :-X
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Winter patties are mixing beekeepers heads.
Lack on pollen tells that winter is coming. Prepare for winter rest.
In cluster bees eate some amount pollen. Poo is full on empty pollen cells.Honey has only energy and pollen has other nutritiens..
Cluster goes over winter without pollen but it is not able to start brooding before they get pollen from nature.
Bees need winter rest. So they are in better condition than bees which beekeeper has disturbed the whole winter with his emergency operations.
It is very different when hives are in California on in New York. It is different too if hives are 1000 / hectare or 5 per hectare. Have you in December 20C day temp or 0C.
I start pollen feeding in spring about 3-4 weeks before willow starts blooming.
When new bees emerge, they get new fresh pollen from nature and they will grow to good brood feeders.
If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalk-brood then.
That is real children fairy-tales. It is more poetry than science.
If you read wikipedia, it says it better.
Vitellogening exist in all animals which produce eggs. birds, fishes, nematodes....It it precursor of protein. Nothing more.
You get a scientific research into you hands and you deliver fairy-tales.
That is big waste.
.
********
Put into google "amino acids of vitellogenin" , you get some idea what the stuff is
so we are making head way-now can you tell me why you object to feeding protein at fall feeding to increase protein level of winter bee- or have you changed your mind or may be remembered something --from looking at earlier posts
I would say that your-IDEAS are becoming more clear(than before) as the discussion deepens-the benefit of a well protein charged bee certainly can not be disputed -RDY-B
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It is better if you debate with your self.
Communication with you is waste of time.
I do not understand what you are going to get with your style. Blood from nose?
Go to sleep. We have here 8 in the morning. Just now we have storm, rain and +1C.
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It is better if you debate with your self.
Communication with you is waste of time.
I do not understand what you are going to get with your style. Blood from nose?
Go to sleep. We have here 8 in the morning. Just now we have storm, rain and +1C.
sory about your luck--its 10pm here and +11c--with wind storm of 56 kil for past two days -RDY-B
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bad luck?
I have a 2-store brick house as a summer cottage. Roof is steel plate. It makes a little noice in rain. I need not luck to survive here. :-P
things are not so bad as you try to imagine. Palm trees are only missing.
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With all the contradictory (and adversarial) info 'some' have posted, this thread has nearly become useless.
Sorry, but someone isn't helping here.....Guess who?
thomas
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Anyone familiar with the almond operations knows that nutrition supplemental are key to keeping honeybees healthy and up to par for February pollination. I wish I had the link to a video where they smash about 7 lbs of sub between brood chambers to keep the bees going. Most beeks would not be able to provide pollination without it.
The real deal is better than sub. I could see benefit from moving a few colonies to pollen rich forage for the whole purpose of trapping pollen to use latter.
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yes but you dont have to feed during winter non fly months to get the benefit -you can feed
sept -oct--one thing you have to take into consideration is going to be consumption--how fast they eat it
if you are feeding right before they quite flying then you want them to eat it fast so they eat alot in the short
time frame--natural pollen is at best 23%-24% on average so if you mix it with honey at 50/50 you are going to get
12% or 13% protein and slow consumption-which is ok for spring when you have the whole season ahead of you
but if we can do as good or better with a sub that is 19% protein and the rest sugar your bees will eat it fast and
get the benefit of the protein and they are still flying and rearing last rounds of brood --so they wont be confined all winter with a gut full of crap--myself i feed about 8 pounds (total)per hive in sept -oct-nov and get three rounds of strong winter bees-- heres the link--RDY-B
feeding bees Nutra-Bee pollen substitue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETLi3Jquor4#)
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Why I feed pollen patty in Finland in Spring
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Very few feed pollen patty here.
I have added electrict heating to patty feeding, and in best cases, I get 3-fold build up speed.
5-frame colonies and smaller become sick with turbo handling.
With high speed build up I may aid small colonies to normal size.
The basic reason to feeding is that it take 2 months that a big hive is able to forage surplus from early pastures. Early yield has special flavor. Dandelion is the best. When mixed to rape honey it makes quite good end product.
Problem is that start of Juni is is cold. Often bees cannot forage dandelion in bad weather.
Bees may get 15 kg per hive dandelion honey, but it it comes one rainy weak, they eate the yield.
Biggest meaning and long lasting meaning is that hives are strong to forage raspberry and rape. Strong hives have a bad swarming pressure in the middle on Juni but it is easy to handle with false swarms.
2) reason
big hives have a huge build up in May. They get fresh pollen and have normal feeding. Willows have light pollen and bees love to eate patty. When spring bloomming starts, like fruit trees and dandelions, bees stop patty eating.
When big hives can raise 10-15 frames in May, 5-frame colonies can raise only 2 frames.
When bees rear in the first half of June 10 frames brood, 6 weeks later they are able to forage rape and raspberry.
At the end of May all witer bees have died and colonies start to grow.
I take some emerging brood frames from big hives and give to small colonies.
When the small colony has one box full of bees, at the beginning of June they have soon a box full of larvae. These are able to handle hovey in main yield.
Dilemma
the basic reason is to get early yield.
I can destroy this goal if I give too much brood to small colonies.
With naural build up I have only 1 yield month. With patty feeding and electrict heating my yield period is 2 months.
after all
weather rules what will be finally the yield. But "you cannot win if you do not try".
My collaques keep me mad but it is my headace.
After 49 beekeeping years this is really boring if i do not try to do something stupid.
I have here splended pastures because beehives are few in this corner of country.
I can select best yield places to hives here. That is interesting every year.
. I need not to be ashame for my yields. They are mostly splended.
What is good here is multi-flower honey. Some parts of country have mono-flower yield like canola of fire weed. It makes easy to sell the yield.
Multi-flower yield is one goal. I move hives this way too. I could move all hives to canola fields but...... Last summer I had 7 hives on 50 hectare canola fields. 2 years ago canola gove nothing. To trust on one card is not wise.
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thats a good spring program but we are interested in the benefit of boosting protein
levels for our winter bees benefit-and we are also concerned with the timing of these events as we do not want to put a added stress factor on the confined wintering bees-of course every keeper must adjust to his own time line for this to happen----
there is allot of resistance to the feeding of protein before winter solstice--some say it is counter productive
and are not happy with the results of a large colony and the management practices that come with this territory-
but i believe that even a small boost in protein levels for bees making the last brood rounds of the season--to be
of extreme benefit for a multitude of reasons-we have visited many examples of the science behind this and come to
understand the how and the why of it----
supplemental feeding of bees whether fall boost or spring jump start is a management technique and a manipulation
that the bees responded to well and this has not gone unnoticed by the beekeeping industry--everyone trys to produce the best form of this product whether it is secrete formula or fagogastic stimulates added to the recipe--this is a HUGE niche market for the industry it amounts to millions of dollars and is a driving force for pollination - package bees and queens --so it is not going to fade away --the days of so so bland sugar and yeast patties are gone --every bee supplier in the us and canada has something to offer-the winter patty at the start of this thread is no exception
and is engineered for winter feeding -understanding the difference between apples and oranges makes all the difference
when protein percents are being discussed -- 8-) of course this is all of little consequence for the keeper who has missed the boat this year-but when the problems of protein deficient bees rears its ugly head- hopefully you will consider these ideas for your next defense --RDY-B
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Thankfully, gratefully we all don't live in Finland :-D
Finski; if you're bored by other beekeeping methods (that seem to be working for them and you even agree with once in a while) why do you keep coming around? You can't even get the topic right in this case and seem hellbent on confusing every one.
I think you just like to argue, am I right?
Just to fan the flames? Who needs that?
thomas
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Thankfully, gratefully we all don't live in Finland :-D
Finski; if you're bored by other beekeeping methods (that seem to be working for them and you even agree with once in a while) why do you keep coming around? You can't even get the topic right in this case and seem hellbent on confusing every one.
I think you just like to argue, am I right?
Just to fan the flames? Who needs that?
thomas
with your skills and experience I would keep my mouth shut.
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thats a good spring program but we are interested in the benefit of boosting protein
levels for our winter bees
supplemental feeding of bees whether fall boost or spring jump start is a management technique and a manipulation
you have different environment to bees than we have.
Our summer is short, about 2,5 month. In July all are in bloom. In second half of August very few plants have flowers. Without field red clover no pollen exists. Bees use pollen store inside hive.
Bees do not eate patty and it is bad food to wintering bees. It is not needed.
Neither I have seen that Canada uses autumn protein feeding.. Never heard.
Spring feeding is not easy here. Folks have met difficulties with it and they have gived up.
It took several years that I learned to succeed with patty. Drying in the hive is one bad problem. ( less soya and more fructose)
If I give a recipe to people, they keep it too difficult and change the recipe. .. And it goes wrong. I have written many times my recipe into beemaster forum, but I suppose that every one use his "own common sense".
At least many recipes are nonsense. ...like open feeding. It takes nerves.
If we compare to UK, irradiated pollen is not avaiable in Britain.
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** you have different environment to bees than we have.**
yes that is true --but that is one reason to explore this topic-you have a extended period of confinement
than most--(we have already explored temps of your location and have determent that there are keepers
in the USA & CANADA that have equal or at times more severe environmental factors at play)---but the long confinement is what is taxing your bees of there natural reserves--if done correctly these reserves can be heightened to give extended
longevity to these wintering bees-with your already fine tuned spring management program you will have all basis covered
these days bees need to be able to fight off new pathogens and even a one two punch of multiple pathogens-that can start a cascade event -which will cause poor response from spring management techniques---
** Neither I have seen that Canada uses autumn protein feeding.. Never heard.**
yes fall patties -winter patties --they feed huge amounts-where do you think global patties are originated
they are pioneers in there efforts--- 8-) RDY-B
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Rugby. You should be carefull what you try to feed to me.
I have read carefully Canadian Honey Coucil letters and I cannot find winter protein feeding.
Agricultural Ministry neither mentions them.
Today Canada uses several years old arguments when they arvertise protein feeding.
Canada has severe winters. It it vain to offer USA - CANADA wintering knowledge.
When you have in winter in south USA +20C temp, in Winnipeg they have -40C.
They cannot open hives at winter and feed them. They surely die with that method.
In Australia they have tried to feed bees with protein. Bee became sick.
Canadians have advertised FeedBee pollensubsitute that it is as good as pollen.
I got the stuff 25 kg and..... My bees did not want to eate it. I tried 4 weeks to feed it.
Then I understood to kick it off and feed my own recipe. They started to eate it 100% more than FeedBee.
You have a famous bee doctor Heather Mattila. She has reseached protein feeding to bees. She was a person to tell that under nutrition is a backround of CCD.
Rugby, you writes things from your corner of earth. I know much thing about bee protein nutrition. Don't keep me fool, ....please. But never mind....it is same to me.
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why not ask the manufacture what is going on-- http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/articles/fall.htm (http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/articles/fall.htm)
8-) RDY-B
http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/why.htm (http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/why.htm)
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**Rugby, you writes things from your corner of earth. I know much thing about bee protein nutrition. Don't keep me fool, ....please. But never mind...it is same to me.**
finski there have been over 1200 hits to this thread--please understand that everything i post is not directed at JUST you- :)
during these topic discussions we are providing a lot of beneficial information-whether it has become repition to use or not-its ok if its not a system we would employ --I have never known you to be thin skined-we will pick this up again it comes up at least three times each winter--so if it makes you feell better--I YIELD TO THE MAN FROM FINLAND-- 8-) :roll: RDY-B
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why not ask the manufacture what is going on-- http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/articles/fall.htm (http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/articles/fall.htm)
8-) RDY-B
http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/why.htm (http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/why.htm)
that is too fat.
I know the value of that kind of information.
Better to stop here. You do not understand the difference between California and Canada.
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"Better to stop here."
Please dont! Winter is long, dont let it be boring.
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"Better to stop here."
Please dont! Winter is long, dont let it be boring.
sorry but we have here that kind of forum guys enough. No need to go over seas.
Take your pills in time.
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I just joined the forum about a month ago ... this string of posts was both entertaining and educational. I don't know about everyone else but having two guys who really know what they are talking about go at it in this case was great. I learned more than I was expecting when I did a search for pollen patties. I might make this into one of those cartoon videos everyone is making these days and post it back here. My hat goes of to Finski and Rdy-B. That was great and thank you! I really mean it, not joking.
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Thankfully, gratefully we all don't live in Finland :-D
Finski; if you're bored by other beekeeping methods (that seem to be working for them and you even agree with once in a while) why do you keep coming around? You can't even get the topic right in this case and seem hellbent on confusing every one.
here is one opinion......
But I have got better my paties this spring. Bees really enjoy the stuff.
What I have done otherwise:
- date is very tasty to bees - from Egyptian professor
- magnesium added - from Egyptian professor
- multi B-vitamin - vitamin content of queen jelly
- 7 years old Chinese pollen (last year it was 6y)
how I know that:
when it was the first day of willow blooming, one hive had 8 frames brood.
Now willow has bloomed 10 days. That hive has now 2 hectares willow in full bloom.
One frame brood needs one frame pollen.
When I look patty consumption, those hives which have lots of newly emerged workers, they consume a huge amout of patty. Brood areas are solid and beautifull.
I can only smile when I look brood frames. Beginning did not seeme goog because beesdid not get enough water for cold weather.
Now our day temperatures are hanging near 15C.
In many hives winter bees have allmost died. A month ago many hives had one box of bees. A week ago only half box. And now bos is again full.
Willow started blooming 10 days ago and now I must add boxes because new bees will born masses. Thanks to soya and baking yeast.
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**I can only smile when I look brood frames.**
thats great news finski- 8-)--
**Willow started blooming 10 days ago and now I must add boxes because new bees will born masses. Thanks to soya and baking yeast.**
Also great news --I love a Happy ending- ;) :lol: --RDY-B
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Besides the good patty, the more important thing is size of colony after winter.
You start to feed a big colony, you have a month later 15 frames brood. Then month and half later you have 5 boxes bees to hit on canola fields.
If you have 5 frames bees after winter, you have 3 frames brood after a month and 2 box hive on canola. That will not get honey.
And how we get from 2 box winterer a 5 frame or even 3 frame colony during winter. It is varroa which makes that. We may report that no winter losses but we lost 50% of hives to varroa because their size went under critical point.
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And how you can do that yourself? - split your hive in spring and you are as bad as varroa.
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**We may report that no winter losses but we lost 50% of hives to varroa because their size went under critical point.**
Interesting point of view-Also we must consider SUSTAINABILITY -timing is everything for a build up and honey crop
** split your hive in spring and you are as bad as varroa.**
allowing for a minimum of two rounds of brood to be reared before the start of the flow-it is possible to make surplus----
even in finland-- :lol: RDY-B
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I've seen less than ten varroa mites since 2007 but practice KYBO (Keep Your Broodnests Open), checkerboarding, frame manipulation (whatever one calls it these days :roll:) religiously, along w/ freezing a drone frame or 2 when seemingly (too me anyway) taking over. Haven't used any pollen patties for at least as many years.
By the time our willows begin we are very fortunate in N/W Wisconsin to have a relatively steady flow of some sort going on throughout out (most of) our summer months (our dandelions just finished ;), no punnnnn intended ;).
Only low temps can prevent our bees from gathering....so then we feed....and feed...and sometimes we feed more,,,,,,but,,,,,, pollen always seems to be plentiful around here, so patties for the most part, make little since in "these" parts of Wisconsin, IMO.
That said, I generally will place pollen sub 'out in the yard' (instead of inside the hive) at least once during Spring and/or Fall (a just in case action). Sometimes they take it, sometimes they don't.
As Sly (Stone) said; different strokes for different folks (and that can only include beekeepers too, heh?). Many of Mr. Finski's methods or even rdyy-b methods would not work (as well) here in Wisconsin or Manitoba, Canada. Lest we remind ourselves (harder for some) that 'all beekeeping (just like "all" politics) is local.' 8-).
Personally, I wouldn't think of adhering to 'anyones' beekeeping methods that didn't also experience my climate, and no other beek should either.
But that's just me. Do whatever you want, follow whomever you want. I too was a bee- killer for many years :'( until I discovered that LOCAL BEES RULE!!!! :-D
t
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**Personally, I wouldn't think of adhering to 'anyones' beekeeping methods that didn't also experience my climate, and no other beek should either. **
that is spot on-there always seams to be a part of the equation that never gets brought up-for
instance did you know that in Helsinki they experience 18 hour days of sun light in june--dont know
about Wisco but here in cali we max at about 14----4 hours of extra forage must be good for something--EHH
;) 8-) RDY-B
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allowing for a minimum of two rounds of brood to be reared before the start of the flow-it is possible to make surplus----
even in finland-- :lol: RDY-B
5 kilos or 50 kilos?
when I have done 22 years pollen and patty feeding in spring, it takes 2 month time to get hives to make surplus.
During that time no 1-box wintered colony is able to get surplus from garden and dandelion pastures.
Surplus hives are all 2-box winterers.
5-frame winterer colonies had done now one brood cycles and they have not even one box full of bees.
If I let them be alone, they are probably ready in July to forage surplus. But I must add 2 frames of emerging brood. So I get the box full of brood.
When queen lays now, eggs are foragers at the end of June. Do I have 5, 10 or 15 frood frames now, so I have foragers 1,5 month later.
To me 15 kg honey is nothing, because if next week is rainy, they consume it all.
I do not try to play with buttons.
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Many of Mr. Finski's methods or even rdyy-b methods would not work (as well) here in Wisconsin or Manitoba, Canada.
Hah hah. Canadian use very much "Finskis" methods. I have learned it from Canadians.
Very few in Finland feed with patty bees. But this is my hobby.
When I read Beemaster forum, Americans have their stupid ways what I am not going to use ever.
You are allways going here and there with your "feeding jars" and "open feeding".
Mr Beek. I would not touch even with stick to ýour methods. Awfull.
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Fin; (we're, well YOU are anyway, picking up where we left off a few months ago) ; simply put fin, you have 'no idea' what my methods are, there's little (to no) room for anyone Else's perspective in your little world since you already know everything there is to know,,,,,,, right?
Xin Loi fin, you did me in, agin...you're much too smart for me :roll:
Funny boy, my belly hurts from laughing. At least you can admit (an interesting admission but one just the same) to 'learning' something 'from canadians' even if you then claim those methods as 'your own' methods in the same sentence.....ohhh boy, now my jaw hurts from laughing. We all know where you're coming from fin ;) never fooled me man.
YYURYYUBICURYYforme :-D
(language barrier my a=======) :evil:
t
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Funny boy, my belly hurts from laughing.
We have a proverb: cry from long joy and fart from long laughing
At least you can admit (an interesting admission but one just the same) to 'learning' something 'from canadians' even if you then claim those methods as 'your own' methods in the same sentence.....ohhh boy, now my jaw hurts from laughing. We all know where you're coming from fin ;) never fooled me man.
I have no methods. Patty recipe is from US laboratories and early protein feeding from Canada.
YYURYYUBICURYYforme :-D
(language barrier my a=======) :evil:
Change you medication.
Then change your avartar. It is ridiculous.
t
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**when I have done 22 years pollen and patty feeding in spring, it takes 2 month time to get hives to make surplus.**
yes two months is two rounds of brood --same thing
**5-frame winterer colonies had done now one brood cycles and they have not even one box full of bees.
If I let them be alone, they are probably ready in July to forage surplus. But I must add 2 frames of emerging brood. So I get the box full of brood.**
5-frames is a nuc or a decent split--still two rounds of brood --or two months--same thing
** To me 15 kg honey is nothing, because if next week is rainy, they consume it all.
I do not try to play with buttons.**
15 kg wont get consumed in a week--especially if colony is one box
15 kg is light-but 30 kg from two box or story and a half is the same as 5 box 150 Kg back to same thing
but i was Hoping you would respond to the comment i made about the length of daylight fly time compared to
other locations i find that very interesting--
do you have any tricks i should know about making comb honey-how many boxes do i need for that- :loll:
beautiful day in finland as i type this-- http://www.portofhelsinki.fi/port_of_helsinki/web_cameras/south_harbour (http://www.portofhelsinki.fi/port_of_helsinki/web_cameras/south_harbour)
take care-- 8-) RDY-B
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rdy-b; you may be asking for more than finski can deliver.
Finski; Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss (or ridicule) people :)
t
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Beek. I ask your favour. Take that male mark off from you name, and write "balls free zone".
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Besides the good patty, the more important thing is size of colony after winter.
You start to feed a big colony, you have a month later 15 frames brood. Then month and half later you have 5 boxes bees to hit on canola fields.
If you have 5 frames bees after winter, you have 3 frames brood after a month and 2 box hive on canola. That will not get honey.
It would seem to me that there should be a happy medium somewhere between not enough bees and too many bees if that makes any sense. I can remember my dad talking about being one of nine children and the thought at the time was that 'one more person to help work on the farm'. What wasnt considered was that it was also one more mouth to feed, clothe, and educate. Seems to me it was one step forward and two steps back way of thinking.
Randy Oliver from www.scientificbeekeeping.com (http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com) wrote an article similiar to this recently-
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/2012-almond-pollination-update/ (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/2012-almond-pollination-update/)
Scroll down to frame strength if you dont want to read the whole article.
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[quote
It would seem to me that there should be a happy medium somewhere between not enough bees and too many bees if that makes any sense. I can remember my dad talking about being one of nine children and the thought at the time was that 'one more person to help work on the farm'. What wasnt considered was that it was also one more mouth to feed, clothe, and educate. Seems to me it was one step forward and two steps back way of thinking.
Randy Oliver from
my aim is to get hives early into foraging condition. So I get 2 months yild period.
If the hive is after winter small, its yiled period is only one month or 2 weeks.
I do not step tree forward and 2 backwards. And I have nothing to do with almond pollination. My productive hives are 5-7 boxes and have allways been.
After 50 beekeeping years and after 22 spring protein feeding I jump 5 steps forward.
Nothing odd id that. And not a step backwards.
When I started my beekeeping, my dad said that stop beekeeping at once.
When I was 55 y and he 80y, he asked when do I stop that stupid beekeeping.
i said, soon, very soon.
I did not say go to hell. I knew that he was going there.
.
(http://www.scientificbeeon-
Scroll down to frame strength if you dont want to read the whole articl
[/quote)