Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: blanc on February 09, 2013, 08:01:43 pm

Title: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: blanc on February 09, 2013, 08:01:43 pm

(http://s7.postimage.org/h80sqxduv/USS_Kid_001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/h80sqxduv/)

(http://s8.postimage.org/3mg5n0lqp/USS_Kid_002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3mg5n0lqp/)

(http://s8.postimage.org/r4hyf795d/USS_Kid_004.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/r4hyf795d/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/wb397s7x1/USS_Kid_003.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wb397s7x1/)

Well in desperate need of woodenware I got on the phone to price some 1x8 lumber.
Home Depot 1x8x12 cost: 14.99 linear ft is $1.49
Home Hardware 1x8x16 cost 8.99 linear ft is $ .56 <<< Local lumber company in SE Louisiana and Mostly in Miss.
Made 10 and three quarter boxes of mediums with three 16 ft'ers at approx. $ 3.63 per box.
If I would have went the Depot route my cost would have approx. cost me $7.49 per box.
It is crazy the markup on some materials at the big box boys. Sometimes shopping local can save you a ton.
Check out the little girl inspecting the equipment.  :)
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: 10framer on February 09, 2013, 08:14:10 pm
i sell building materials for a living and years ago i worked for home depot.  the gross profit margin on any lumber at the box stores is at least 30 points.  they will sell osb at or below cost as a loss leader but they gig you on everything else. in their defense most of their product is high grade.
next time you need lumber contact a company like Probuild, or 84 lumber and buy there.  if you find one person you can deal with on a regular basis you'll end up getting better pricing. if you'll set up an account you'll definitely get better pricing (cash transactions are a pain for actual building supply companies) and you get net 30 on your purchase.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: PLAN-B on February 09, 2013, 08:17:02 pm
i am also in south east Louisiana. My neighbor as a sawmill. Got him to cut me up some 1x8x16 cypress and picked it up earlier today, but he wouldn't take my money. Finally got him to take $20 for the gas of running his mill. Hope he likes honey because there is plenty coming his way... :-D Looks good blanc... How do you join the corners of your boards? Dove tail, Rabbet, etc...  
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: 10framer on February 09, 2013, 08:17:41 pm
here's another tip.  the cost per foot usually jumps quite a bit on anything over 14 feet.  if you can work with 10 12 or 14 ft material and control your scrap you'll see more savings.  
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: blanc on February 09, 2013, 08:20:59 pm
i sell building materials for a living and years ago i worked for home depot.  the gross profit margin on any lumber at the box stores is at least 30 points.  they will sell osb at or below cost as a loss leader but they gig you on everything else. in their defense most of their product is high grade.
next time you need lumber contact a company like Probuild, or 84 lumber and buy there.  if you find one person you can deal with on a regular basis you'll end up getting better pricing. if you'll set up an account you'll definitely get better pricing (cash transactions are a pain for actual building supply companies) and you get net 30 on your purchase.

Problem is 10 that this hardware place is only 15 min away and 84 is 35 Min's so no savings there. My son used to run lumber at the Home Depot here and told me about the give aways verses the big markup and being a contractor we get stuck buying there because of the close proximity.
Blanc
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: blanc on February 09, 2013, 08:23:38 pm
i am also in south east Louisiana. My neighbor as a sawmill. Got him to cut me up some 1x8x16 cypress and picked it up earlier today, but he wouldn't take my money. Finally got him to take $20 for the gas of running his mill. Hope he likes honey because there is plenty coming his way... :-D Looks good blanc... How do you join the corners of your boards? Dove tail, Rabbet, etc...  
I use this kreg tool that corner screws since I don't have the patience to dovetail and don't have the setup for it. Did a few boxes last year and holding pretty tight so for.
Blanc
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: PLAN-B on February 09, 2013, 08:28:05 pm
so you are using a pocket jig. Are you just butting up the ends or are you cutting them on a 45 degree angle and then screwing them? I might go that same route...
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: 10framer on February 09, 2013, 09:08:51 pm
i don't work for 84 and i just checked and my company doesn't have a location in la. 84 charges delivery but we don't and when i worked for builders first source i charged 2 dollars.  you're a little out of my delivery range. 
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: Moots on February 09, 2013, 09:55:12 pm
Yeah, I've been getting my wood at Home Depot, hadn't actually shopped it around but figured I might do better locally. However, ther is something to be said for the convenience and actually being able to go through and select your boards.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: blanc on February 09, 2013, 10:55:27 pm
so you are using a pocket jig. Are you just butting up the ends or are you cutting them on a 45 degree angle and then screwing them? I might go that same route...
Straight butt with glue and holds tight. Real impressed and at the price I can build them I can't complain.
Blanc
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: Moots on February 09, 2013, 11:13:03 pm
so you are using a pocket jig. Are you just butting up the ends or are you cutting them on a 45 degree angle and then screwing them? I might go that same route...
Straight butt with glue and holds tight. Real impressed and at the price I can build them I can't complain.
Blanc

I had visions of doing finger joints originally...given my available equipment and skill set, it became apparent rather quickly that that wasn't gonna happen.  :)

Decided to go with a single rabbet on my short boards. it's a nice fit, fairly simple, and cuts the amount of exposed end grain in half. I'm pleased with them, we'll see how they hold up.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: Joe D on February 09, 2013, 11:46:57 pm
Haven't heard of Home Hardware, I like Economy Supply in Hattiesburg.  They usually have a good grade of lumber.  But for now I have a couple of stacks of 1x8x12's out in the crib.  Been using them for years, Dad got them 50 or so years ago.  Cut your boards, run by the router, glue and nail, staple or screw em together.
This year I used liquid nails instead of glue and staples.  Have a jig set up whip em out fairly quick.



Joe
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: duck on February 09, 2013, 11:52:05 pm
Quote

I had visions of doing finger joints originally...given my available equipment and skill set, it became apparent rather quickly that that wasn't gonna happen.  :)

Decided to go with a single rabbet on my short boards. it's a nice fit, fairly simple, and cuts the amount of exposed end grain in half. I'm pleased with them, we'll see how they hold up.




Yuuupp, 3/4 rabbet ftw!  Heres a tip if your boards are cupping some.  Cut all your pieces and stack them flat.  Put a ton of weight on em, and let them sit for a few weeks, then put em together.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: Bush_84 on February 10, 2013, 12:06:14 am
Ya I just looked online at some prices and menards has a nice sale.  Online their prices seemed to be cut in half.  So tomorrow I am going to load up on lumber.  Let's see if I can get an additional 10 deeps and 10 meds out of this deal.  Once that's done I must turn my attention to frames.

I am all about butt joints, wood glue, and deck screws.  I would just mess us any other joints. 
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: tommysnare on February 10, 2013, 12:32:57 am
is it really economical to build ur own frames ? looks like would be a nightmare hahaha.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: 10framer on February 10, 2013, 11:40:10 am
is it really economical to build ur own frames ? looks like would be a nightmare hahaha.

if he doesn't use foundation he should be able to eliminate a lot of cuts.  i would think you start with a pice of 2x material and a table saw the end bars could be shaped then sliced off of the 2x4 and top and bottoms with no grooves would be a couple of rips and chops.
that being said, i buy mine.  if i were semi-retired or self-e,ployed i'd probably make my own though.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: Moots on February 10, 2013, 12:06:03 pm
is it really economical to build ur own frames ? looks like would be a nightmare hahaha.

if he doesn't use foundation he should be able to eliminate a lot of cuts.  i would think you start with a pice of 2x material and a table saw the end bars could be shaped then sliced off of the 2x4 and top and bottoms with no grooves would be a couple of rips and chops.
that being said, i buy mine.  if i were semi-retired or self-e,ployed i'd probably make my own though.

One of the local beeks I've met, that happens to be retired, makes his own frames....rips everything from 2X4's.  I KNEW I wasn't going there so didn't get many details.  Next time I see him I'll inquire further...but I'm almost positive he uses foundation and does them up the whole way.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: 10framer on February 10, 2013, 01:40:57 pm
i wrote 2x4 but i meant 2x10.  still, a small wood shop with maybe a table saw, a radial arm saw (or compound miter) and a table router should be able to produce more than adequate equipment. 
if i were at the point that i could just farm i'd build all my own equipment in the winter.   
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: ScooterTrash on February 10, 2013, 02:39:16 pm
Wrapping up the 300 medium boxes & 3,000 Foundationless Frames I began in the Fall. 1-1/2" & 1-1/4 side bars from scrap 2" x 4" (cut 2 x 4 to length, slab cut on table saw to respective width(s), run thru dado on both ends for top/bottom bars, run thru router on narrow side of 2 x 4 for bee space, run thru table saw w/thin kerf blade one gets 7 end pieces per 2 x 4 section. Get your saw miller to cut a little heavy (thickness) on some 1" x 8" x 8' (I pay $2.35 per board rough cut). Plan 1" x 8" x 8' to 7/8 thick, cut boards to top bar length then run thru dado for frame rest cuts then rip the 1" x 8" x 8' to 1-1/8" widths, then make side bar dado cuts, then run thru router with 45 degree chamfer bit. Retired here with more time than money on hands. Got an older fellow, who I help out with BVT, who is going to build me an assembly jig for the boxes (sweet jig on you tube) and he is also building a small vat that I had hoped to hot wax dip (another sweet video on you tube of the vat & paint stand) the boxes in however the wax is going to be a little to costly for me at this time assuming my calculations are correct?

Based on extra space and Deep/Bottom Board: L = 24” x W = 19” x H = 10”

=4,560in/cu

if, 2in/cu=1oz         

then; 4,560in/cu / 2i/cu =2280oz

and; 2280/16=142lbs Is enough to just cover a Deep Box (the vat is actually 9-1/2" taller to take care of frothing)

 

Two 55lb packages micro-crystalline wax w/180 degree melt point 110lbs x $3lb = $330

Two 55lb packages paraffin wax w/140 degree melt point 110lbs x $2lb = $220

4 Packages shp@$40each = 200

Total $750

Any Beekeepers close to Roswell, Georgia that may want to share wax start up costs? Note the actual dipping process only sucks up about 1lb per box but the vat has to be full of wax in order to submerge a box, LOL
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: 10framer on February 10, 2013, 06:32:20 pm
scooter are you selling any of that equipment?  if so, i'm interested.
now i'll show my ignorance.  i know nothing about the hot wax dip.  is there a reason you can't dip the pieces before you assemble the hive body?  that would take a lot smaller vat and less wax at one time.
is there a reason that the hive body needs to be assembled during the vatting?
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: ScooterTrash on February 10, 2013, 06:45:26 pm
No plans to sell at this point. Check out hot wax dipping on YouTube. Dipping individual parts would be to much handling, glue would not adhere during assembly. Note all hive componets will be dipped; bottom board, ventilator & cover. I am going to assemble via biscuit joinery this go around.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: 10framer on February 10, 2013, 07:16:39 pm
No plans to sell at this point. Check out hot wax dipping on YouTube. Dipping individual parts would be to much handling, glue would not adhere during assembly. Note all hive componets will be dipped; bottom board, ventilator & cover. I am going to assemble via biscuit joinery this go around.

 based off of the video i watched i see a lot of emergency room visits and disfigured beekeepers in the future.  if i didn't want to paint my hives i'd either go with an oil finish or no finish at all before i'd do that.  for now i'll stick with good old latex paint.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: RHBee on February 10, 2013, 07:17:49 pm
so you are using a pocket jig. Are you just butting up the ends or are you cutting them on a 45 degree angle and then screwing them? I might go that same route...
Straight butt with glue and holds tight. Real impressed and at the price I can build them I can't complain.
Blanc

Blanc, I bought the Kreg and have been toying around with using it to join the boxes with it. Are you cutting the pockets on the inside or the outside of the box. From what I see it will work either way. Currently, I'm making my wooden ware from scrap crates I recycle from my job. My company is one of the nations biggest recyclers and they are more then happy to give me all I want.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: capt44 on February 14, 2013, 12:45:36 am
I cut my long boards 19 1/8 inches long.
I cut my short boards 16 1/4 inches long.
I cut a 3/4 inch rabbet 3/8 deep in the board.
It makes a box 19 7/8 inches long by 16 1/4 wide and however deep you need the boxes.
For the handles I use a 1 1/2 x 3 inch cup wheel (it has carbide steel tips) using my drill press to cut the handles.
The wheel is actually designed to buff tires.
It's the safest way I've seen to make the handles.
I have a jig I clamp to the drill press table and just insert my boards and make a couple of swipes on the wheel,
A perfect handle everytime.
I glue the rabbets and brad nail it together.
I use a tri-square inside the box in opposite corners to square it up.
Title: Re: Making Wooden Ware
Post by: Moots on February 14, 2013, 10:38:16 am
I cut my long boards 19 1/8 inches long.
I cut my short boards 16 1/4 inches long.
I cut a 3/4 inch rabbet 3/8 deep in the board.
It makes a box 19 7/8 inches long by 16 1/4 wide and however deep you need the boxes.
For the handles I use a 1 1/2 x 3 inch cup wheel (it has carbide steel tips) using my drill press to cut the handles.
The wheel is actually designed to buff tires.
It's the safest way I've seen to make the handles.
I have a jig I clamp to the drill press table and just insert my boards and make a couple of swipes on the wheel,
A perfect handle everytime.
I glue the rabbets and brad nail it together.
I use a tri-square inside the box in opposite corners to square it up.

My approach is very similar to Capt.'s, with a few small differences...
 - My short boards are 13 3/4" b/c I do 8 frame equipment (I do the single 3/4" rabbet, 3/8ths deep on those)
 - I glue with Titebond III and shoot with six or seven 1 1/4" staples on each corner.
 - I use the radial arm saw and a jig to do my hand holds, as described in the Beekeepers Workshop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyxfRMMD7SU#)

I've seen a video on the method capt describes for his handholds, it does a VERY nice job....I just don't have convenient access to a drill press, plus I didn't have the bit, nor the patience to wait for it to come in when I was in box building mold.  However, I'm pleased with the results of my hand holds.

Concerning the OP, out of curiosity I decided to compare price from my local Lowe's and Home Depot, as well as a local lumber yard.  On 1x8x8's and 1x12x8's Lowe's and Home Depot have the identical price...to the Penny!  Coincidence?  I think not!  :-D

Lowe's and Home Depot 1x8x8 $8.47
described by Lowe's as Kiln dried whiteboard and by Home Depot as #2 Kiln dried Whiteboard or better.
#2 Pine from my local Mom and Pop Lumber yard: 1x8x8 $3.80

Lowe's and Home Depot 1x12x8 (same descriptions) $14.18
Local Mom and Pop....No #2, only #3 1x12x8 $6.76

Wow! That's quite a difference....wonder how the quality varies? Might be worth exploring.  Has anyone used the #3 to make boxes?