Author Topic: small cell questions (Read 11577 times)

Michael Bush · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:49:57 pm »

>why would one deliberately get a volxwagon to haul a bunch of loads when they could get a pickup and hall it in one trip

Because they both have the same Volkswagen engine...

>i just dont like sugesting it to newbees

I don't like them having to start over when they could have already regressed them and bought the equipment they really want. It's MUCH more complicated to learn about all the different treatments for all the different diseases than it is to go treatment free.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#HowToRegress
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

oblib · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:30:35 pm »

-snip- I know what you're saying Bud, and maybe it depends on how focused a new beek is. But a year is plenty of time to study and improve your understanding of the issues involved. It might not work with everyone, but I think the posters in this thread are pretty focused.
[/quote]

Joined the 2 local assoc on either side of me, read at least 10,000 pages in books on bees and beekeeping, can't count all the webites that i have read, built all my woodenware except for the frames and 6 of 60 boxes.

Yup I think I'm focused :-D

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #22 on:** February 03, 2012, 12:31:17 am »

oblib, what kind of nucs are you getting? Are they already on small cell foundation or foundationless comb? Just want to make sure you understood about introducing large cell foundation into the hive. It will slow down the regression to normal sized bees. Eggs that are laid in the large cell will produce bees that are too big to draw natural comb.

If you start a package with small cell foundation like the pf120s, they are regressed in the first few brood cycles, basically within 2 months. But it can take years to get rid of large cell and you will waste a lot of drawn comb trying.

Vance G · « **Reply #23 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:09:27 am »

THis spring I re entered beekeeping with six nucs and a pile of new mann lake 4.9 mm plastic frames pl 220's and new boxes. I am sure It did slow down the regression but I just kept moving the frames from the nuc to the outside and when they were free of brood removed them til I left just 2 in the 1 and 10 position where they don't get brood laid anyway. By the end of the summer, almost all of my bees were little. I am sure that some of the terrible messes that were made on the ML frames were because of my methodology. By the time the nucs had filled another deep and a couple of them two more on ML frames, they had the new size comb down pretty well. Two of the six colonies just draw crappy comb and I think they would do that on any foundation. They are all moved up into the top hive body now with 11 shaved ML frames per Mr. Bush's suggestion. I think I will get small bees when I start feeding in foundationless this spring. I am hoping this regimen will aid in mite control. If it doesn't, I have lost nothing. I still will get a faster ramp up in population because my clusters will cover more cells filled with brood. It's worth a shot and if it doesn't work, there is no downside I can see. It will just all get mixed in with other frames. If it works, as I am confidant it will, I am free of hard chemical treatments. I think it is always a combination of management practices that leads to sucess. Brood breaks and genetics have got to be at least as important in controlling the mite monster. All I know for sure is ya gotta do somethin or you are going to buy a lot of replacement bees.

T Beek · « **Reply #24 on:** February 03, 2012, 08:26:14 am »

Wow, excellent discussion! This is one topic that always brings out the very best of this forum :) IMO .

You're all awesome.

I am sooooo glad I went foundationless early on in this beekeeping project 8-) and never had to bother w/ anything other than the foundation that came with my original Lang kits.

Those were completely removed about five years ago. I do keep some around though just in case I need to 'assist' bees to build where I want them to ;) and don't have any available comb to spare from another colony.

Anyone else notice that wax moths won't touch plain 'wax' foundation? Hm mm.

thomas

oblib · « **Reply #25 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:41:12 am »

I couldnt find any local smallcell so as soon as the queen is laying in the boxes with the 120's I will put an excluder on to keep her there. Once all the nuc frames are empty of brood, out they come. I won't give the foundationless frames until 8 weeks after the nuc frames come out.

So I won't get the nuc advantage of "free" comb but I will still get the benifit of a continual supply of nurse beees to allow the queen lay all she wants. And the nucs are costing $85 per so its as cheap or cheaper than packages.

bud1 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:45:51 am »

mike since you quoted part i will type again part that you seam to have missed; i have hives 7-8yrs old hives that have never been treated for mites, other than your small cell soap box stance i personally thank you. .your dillligence on this forum. you and your web site are a great source and freely given thanks and i have personally pointed many to your site as it is a wealth of info. just dont agree with the small cell
on the engine i seam to recall where they have another called a porche(or how ever you spell it)

Kathyp · « **Reply #27 on:** February 03, 2012, 11:00:18 am »

important to note here that there is a BIG difference between natural cell and small cell. it is small cell that i think is a waste of time and money. natural cell, i'm all for . let them build what they want and the size that they want it.

there is no study that back small cell for mite or disease control. it's a money making gimmick at this point.

D Semple · « **Reply #28 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:05:37 pm »

Quote from: kathyp on February 03, 2012, 11:00:18 am

important to note here that there is a BIG difference between natural cell and small cell. it is small cell that i think is a waste of time and money. natural cell, i'm all for . let them build what they want and the size that they want it.

there is no study that back small cell for mite or disease control. it's a money making gimmick at this point.

Who the heck is making any money to speak of, off of SC???

BjornBee · « **Reply #29 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:59:46 pm »

Quote from: D Semple on February 03, 2012, 01:05:37 pm

Quote from: kathyp on February 03, 2012, 11:00:18 am
important to note here that there is a BIG difference between natural cell and small cell. it is small cell that i think is a waste of time and money. natural cell, i'm all for . let them build what they want and the size that they want it.

there is no study that back small cell for mite or disease control. it's a money making gimmick at this point.

Who the heck is making any money to speak of, off of SC???

Not sure if pointing fingers at individuals is a good thing. Your finger may very well get smacked.

But there is a whole group of folks who get speakers fees (500 dollars and up) for the promotion of their ideology. Some sell books. Some sell queens and bees. There are a couple beekeepers who have sold a good number of nucs from the active participation and promotion of just being on a couple forums. I could list a number of folks who have sold their bees on the promises of smallcell claims.

I see a few speakers in every category, whether smallcell, TBH, Warre hives, etc., that are in demand for their services due to claims of being "more" natural, etc.

I will add that I also think that ego and self promotion probably come in play also. Beekeepers are great at tweaking a thing here or there, building a new design or hive, and making themselves standout. Years ago, there was probably one book per year (if that) put out by well established beekeepers. Today, it seems everyone is an expert. Everyone wants to put out a book. And everyone has a website. So to stand out, you need a niche. You need to sell an ideology different than the others. As example, I have read two different articles on "super" bees this year being promoted as the next thing to save beekeeping. And you better believe that these two folks are lining up the speaking engagements based on this promotion, asking high rates, and high prices for their bees.

Beekeepers are the ultimate optimists. They are always looking for a better tomorrow. Always thinking someone will solve their problems. Always willing to be sold the next thing coming down the street. And yes, there is money to be made off of selling pipe dreams and false hopes.

While I don't really think huge amounts of money is being made, one should at least understand the dynamics of the game at hand. ;)

buzzbee · « **Reply #30 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:00:49 pm »

I see no problem with people voluntarily paying for a subject about which they are interested.If someone has had a good experience and wants to share it, even if it may only be part of a broader program for IPM,let them speak.

I see no one makes mention that all cells in the brood area get subsequently smaller with repeated brood cycles. Unless the cells are torn down for one reason or another. In the natural cycle of things,wax moths eradicate the comb in natural colonies that have been abandoned. But we as beekeepers use the same combs for long periods of time and and do our best to keep wax moths from filling their niche in nature.
Can small cell be part of an IPM program? I think so. But I do not think it used exclusively as the cure all. There is no more harm done experimenting with this.
But there are reasons companies that sell foundation for this purpose warn that it should be used by experienced bee keepers. I assume that keeps people from being upset it if does not do what they wish for.
Notice I said that is my assumption.Not a printed fact.

buzzbee · « **Reply #31 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:03:17 pm »

Quote from: oblib on February 02, 2012, 11:30:35 pm

Joined the 2 local assoc on either side of me, read at least 10,000 pages in books on bees and beekeeping, can't count all the webites that i have read, built all my woodenware except for the frames and 6 of 60 boxes.

Yup I think I'm focused :-D

But one thing you have to remember,the bees have read none of the books!! :-D :-D
They are always capable of throwing something "not in the books" at you.

oblib · « **Reply #32 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:17:35 pm »

Quote from: buzzbee on February 03, 2012, 03:03:17 pm

Quote from: oblib on February 02, 2012, 11:30:35 pm

Joined the 2 local assoc on either side of me, read at least 10,000 pages in books on bees and beekeeping, can't count all the webites that i have read, built all my woodenware except for the frames and 6 of 60 boxes.

Yup I think I'm focused :-D

But one thing you have to remember,the bees have read none of the books!! :-D :-D
They are always capable of throwing something "not in the books" at you.

Thats why I joined 2 beek associations and this forum. :cheer:

D Semple · « **Reply #33 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:24:17 pm »

Bjorn,

Good for them, I'm glad they make a few bucks or scratch out a living, off of what they believe in. Gee, that would probably make them American.

BUT, I don't see that money is what motivates any of the dozen or so who strongly promote SC and treatment free and make any money at all at it. Agree with their methods or not, they are all about what they believe is "what's best for bees", something we all have in common.

Don

Vance G · « **Reply #34 on:** February 03, 2012, 04:39:43 pm »

I don't think reading is taught much anymore , but in Gullivers Travels, Lilleput and Blefiscue were at continual war over whether to crack your poached egg at the small end or the large end. That satire has at least a small significance in the cell size argument. The bottom line is you better be doing something or the mites will getcha. People who are actively working at it will keep their bees alive by a number of means. Those who just say they are treatment free will tend to be excellant customers for bee suppliers.

Kathyp · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2012, 05:04:16 pm »

Quote

any of the dozen or so who strongly promote SC and treatment free and make any money at all at it.

again, it should be pointed out that treatment free and small cell are not the same. you can go treatment free if you pay attention to the genetics of the bees and promote those lines that handle the mites well. which...i think, is what you will find in most yards that promote small cell and treatment free. the care in the breeding has more to do with success than the foundation, or lack of it.

i really don't care one way or the other what people do. i do care that new people get sold on these things and then, when it doesn't work out, they get discouraged. management needs to be kept to basics as experience is gained. it's hard to develop a "method" for anything until you have some idea what you are doing.

bud1 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2012, 06:33:26 pm »

vance you are rite the thing i do is dont worry about mites, that problem is over , just get you some bees that handle them as kathy says. for those who order packages; in 2 years they better be ready to treat no matter what they are on as they come from basicly the big guys that dont have the time or inclination to just let the ones that cant handle the mites just go the way of natural selection as mine have. i have a case or 2 0f european fowl crop up ocasionally that i do treat for, but my problem is beatles not mites, but you can bet they gona handle them too eventually.

T.J. · « **Reply #37 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:13:34 pm »

kathy,
i now see what you meant about a can of worms.... ;)

i want to thank everyone for all the help/advice.i really appreciate it. i have learned alot in these 2 pages.

thanks,
T.J.

Vance G · « **Reply #38 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:33:51 pm »

Bud 1, I am glad you are there and I don't doubt you are. I am not---that I know of. I have got resistent stock ordered to add to my genetics and will bungle along until I get there too if I have time with my onrushing decrepitude. Cell size makes sense to worry about for me because when building up, it seems that the cluster will cover more cells. The 4.9 mm frames are costing me no more, in fact getting unwaxed plastic was far cheaper than a frame and foundation of any kind. I see no harm in it or snake oil. Just different opinions. I guess i will find out this year or next. My clean nucs were starting to show mites last fall. I will get to see what happens this coming summer. Because I am going to test regularly and I am going to know! When you know you can respond.

Intheswamp · « **Reply #39 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:39:11 pm »

Quote from: buzzbee on February 03, 2012, 03:03:17 pm

Quote from: oblib on February 02, 2012, 11:30:35 pm

Joined the 2 local assoc on either side of me, read at least 10,000 pages in books on bees and beekeeping, can't count all the webites that i have read, built all my woodenware except for the frames and 6 of 60 boxes.

Yup I think I'm focused :-D

But one thing you have to remember,the bees have read none of the books!! :-D :-D
They are always capable of throwing something "not in the books" at you.

My mentor says that the only thing absolute about bees is that there's nothing absolute about bees. ;)