Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: tillie on June 04, 2011, 08:20:27 pm
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Because I am having a small reaction to something going on in another thread, I wanted to speak up separately and comment positively about the value of certification. There's no need for any beekeeper to get any kind of certification to be a good beekeeper. Beekeeping is an art and a science and we probably all learn about it in many ways.
I know for me I learn by reading and participating here, by participating in my bee club, by all of my Internet contacts, by reading books - particularly Mark Winston and Tom Seeley, and by studying various papers wherever I can find them - in Bee Culture, in George Imrie's writings, in Walt Wright's articles etc. I could do all of the above and not work for certification and probably also be a good beekeeper.
However, I do know that I have learned way more about bees and their functioning in the world, and I have learned lots about beekeeping and how it is done by many other people than I because I have studied for the various levels of certification offered by the Univ. of Ga through the Young Harris Beekeeping Institute. Passing certified pushed me on to work to pass journey(wo)man and I have also passed Master Beekeeper.
It does not make me an expert by any means. I tell groups I speak to that the fact that I can say I am a Master beekeeper simply means I was able to study and pass a test. I always comment that there are many people in the room with much more experience and learning than I.
But I want to encourage anyone on this forum, who has the opportunity, to take and pass the various levels of certification. Passing doesn't just mean you can study well and take tests well. It means that you have been tested on practical skills. It also means (at least in Georgia) that you have offered certain levels of public service - including swarm removal, public speaking, providing bees for a community garden, mentoring another beekeeper, served a local, state or national bee club as an officer, won honey contests, run a booth to promote beekeeping at a science fair or public event, etc. And that you can put all of the above together and present it to be evaluated.
In addition, once getting the Master Beekeeper certification, there's a responsibility included. An assumption is made that you will give back to the beekeeping community as I do every day either by speaking, teaching, writing or engaging with someone or another on the subject of beekeeping.
So if you have the opportunity, go for it.
Linda T in Atlanta
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i think it's a great idea. the more we learn the better and the better we can teach.....as long as it is a choice and not a requirement.
Because I am having a small reaction to something going on in another thread
did it cause a rash?? ;) :evil:
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And to add to that, the public service requirements are great fun and a way to reach non beekeepers with our message. I enjoy going to someplace and giving a presentation on bees and/or beekeeping. I get to connect with many fascinating groups that way.
Makes your family proud, too. :-D
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We have a big program here in North Carolina through NC State University. I would love to get involved and I have tried, however the tests are only given during the beginning of the year and mainly during the weekends. I, unforunately, work most weekends and do not have access to the tests. I will get around to it one day though! I agree with you 100%! You can be a great Beekeeper without certification, but it is a chance to give back and further your education at the same time!
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Joe, The tests are given at all spring and summer state meetings. The next one is July 7,8 & 9, in Elon, NC. There are study lessons and rules on the NC website. NCbeekeepers.org
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Iddee,
Unforunately I work on all those days. I may have to see when the testing is and maybe I can test before I go to work.
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I posted this response under another thread about bee blogs (detest blogs).
I must admit a prejudice where the "Master Beekeeper" program is concerned.
It is built around all the conventional scientific data plus an emphasis on community service. I don't really see the connection between community service and being and "expert" in the practical art of beekeeping. I admit it is nice if a knowledge beekeeper can do presentations concerning his avocation is a good thing but it's not really a part of beekeeping per se.
The problem I have with the conventional scientific data is, through the results of my own experience, that much of it is based on scientific studies conducted using insufficient time samples. A four to eight week study in the middle of the summer might give an indication that a proposed mite treatment kills mites but it is so devoid of sufficient study of the effect of the treatment has on the bees over several years of exposure that it's laughable. Yet these mini studies are pulished and expounded to be the end all and sites the data accumulated during it's short life.
My experience tells me that if you treat your bees with a miticide (pick one) year after year, that soon your bees are so sick from the exposure to the treatments that the bees languish, enter a cycle of continuous supercedure, and any excess reared queens are quickly superceded too. The only thing that will save the bees from dwindling away in this country are those of us who refuse to prop up our bees with medications, and other substances, and return to keeping bees as if the mites and other perisites don't exist.
When it comes to books, and I'm a late commer to this topic as I didn't own a book on beekeeping until about 5 years ago, is that there is so much misinformation in published works on bees that it's a wonder there are any successful beekeepers left.
I spend part of every beekeeper's meeting attempting to dispel advice gleaned from the pages of the latest bee book that a beekeeper took as gospel and he suddenly finds his bees are dying on him.
A beekeeper who publishes a book on beekeeping after a few years of keeping bees does not make him an expert.
A certificate awarded for attending a series of classes and doing a little community service does not make someone and expert on bees.
A college degree doesn't make someone an expert on beekeeping.
Each case might make him knowledgeable, to some degree, but not an expert.
What makes someone an expert on Beekeeping is astute observations while shoulder deep in bee hives over the course of a quarter century or so. An Expert Beekeeper is someone who can have another beekeeper, seeking knowledge, come to them with a problem, and from the discription given by the seeker of knowledge, can describe to said seeker, exactly what his bee hive looks like inside in detail, the bees behaviour, and what actions the seeker of knowledge has done to the beehive so far that season and what part of those actions caused the problem. Then the Expert Beekeeper can tell the seeker of knowledge exactly what needs to be done to correct the problem.
There are probably less than a dozen of us on this forum who can do that, and even then we'll disagree on some aspects of beekeeping, since beekeeping is not an exact science, and I'm not even sure we would even consider ourselves experts....sperts maybe, but not experts. I had a mentor who kept bees for over 60 years when I meant him, who attempted to teach me as much of his experience he could in the 6+ years he mentored me, and I've kept bees for over 50 years myself but I wouldn't call myself an expert yet as I'm still learing.
Although I can tell a seeker of knowledge what he willl find the next time he goes into his beehives from what he tells me he saw the last time he was in his hives, I'm not an expert. I can't tell you all the names of the various parts of a bee nor can I begin to tell you scientific names but I do know what goes on inside a beehive.
To which I'll add: In my experience an "Expert" is someone who thinks they've learned all they need to know about a subject, not everything about it, just everything they need to know.
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I don't totally disagree Tille, I think certifications may have a place in instigating learning, but I tend to run into the ones with alot of book knowledge and little keeping knowledge.
A little off the subject, but Heck we have even had folks turn up on here, tell everyone how it ought be done and have nar hive!!! :evil: And never had nar hive!!!
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I don't totally disagree Tille, I think certifications may have a place in instigating learning, but I tend to run into the ones with alot of book knowledge and little keeping knowledge.
A little off the subject, but Heck we have even had folks turn up on here, tell everyone how it ought be done and have nar hive!!! :evil: And never had nar hive!!!
X:X X:X X:X
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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I think you may be grouping too many people in your one small group. In any field, there are great, good, bad, and terrible. In the NC master Beekeeper program, no one item other than years keeping bees and public service is required. There are 15 or more fields, 6 of which you must show proficiency. As a 35 year beek,I never studied to get my certificate. I just did the presentations and, took the tests, and showed the proficiency in the fields I choose. I do believe, tho, that the program itself is a great program that gives the new beeks a bit stronger desire to learn and the more advanced beeks a desire to study a bit more than they have already. It is also something to keep interest up and bring people in the hobby and vocation closer together.
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I think certifications may have a place in instigating learning, but I tend to run into the ones with alot of book knowledge and little keeping knowledge.
There are certainly rotten apples in every barrel, and I wasn't saying everyone should get certified - just that there is some value in it and that there has been value in it for me.
I don't ever appreciate when grand general assumptions are made. My father used to say that all truck drivers are rough characters and I spent many an hour growing up trying to convince him that there are many kinds of people who drive trucks and it wasn't fair to say "all" are any particular kind of characters.
There are many great ways to learn beekeeping and experience is not the only teacher. There are plenty of people for whom a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but then there are plenty more who share and have great ways of imparting their knowledge - like Michael Bush, for example, whose web site is exemplary and who is always kind in his feedback to people here.
There are good books and not so good books, there are great teachers and speakers and others who put me to sleep and have little to offer.
I don't think anyone can fairly make blanket statements about blogs, master beekeepers, people who learn from books, people who learn from experience, etc. but I do think having the opportunity to learn about other people's ideas of how to practice beekeeping, however you avail yourself of the material, does seem to expand one's idea of how to bee a beekeeper.
And one way to do that is to get certified in a Master Beekeeper program with levels of accomplishment and learning.
Linda T
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I posted this response under another thread about bee blogs (detest blogs).
I must admit a prejudice where the "Master Beekeeper" program is concerned.
It is built around all the conventional scientific data plus an emphasis on community service. I don't really see the connection between community service and being and "expert" in the practical art of beekeeping. I admit it is nice if a knowledge beekeeper can do presentations concerning his avocation is a good thing but it's not really a part of beekeeping per se.
I think it is built around control, money, and other aspects.
Higher learning establishments need to constantly build upon the "break into groups" and the caste system in every fiber of their being. They have their hands in about every aspect of every persons lives in one way or another. University programs are basically run by liberal leftist (some say community organizers) types that think public service and volunteering should be part of every persons life. And if you don't volunteer....they will build upon a learning system that dictates to you that you WILL do the time. It is built into almost every degree put out by universities. Want to be a doctor.....better plan on volunteering at an inner city hospital for no pay for 6 months or more if you ever hope to get your degree. So it is no surprise that a simple master beekeepers certification program has those same type requirements. I don't like academic elitist crap. And I see that with the requirements of the master beekeepers program, and those who run around using the title.
I think there are a wonderful amount of beekeepers who know more than most "master beekeepers". The master beekeepers I have known, mostly got the "title" due to personal gain and an ego trip. They don't do anything more than the next person at the local associations, they don't know anything more than the next beekeeper, and they certainly do not lose any less hives every winter.
One of the local bee associations I belong too wanted to have a "tiered" system of labling beekeepers into various groups. (beginner, intermediate, advanced, master, etc., based on testing and community service, speaking engagements, etc.) I am glad they shot the idea down as many did not want to feel compelled to participate into this type program, and be labled as such. And I think there would of been some who would of felt alienated from the association.
I applaud those who do talks and educate the public. Myself...I have one this Sunday at a state park. But I don't need a title to do such things for the bee industry.
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Some posts are so off the wall, they don't even deserve a reply. I'll pretend I don't see them and go to bed.
Good night..
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:-D
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Some posts are so off the wall, they don't even deserve a reply. I'll pretend I don't see them and go to bed.
Good night..
Interesting reply.
So tell me, what category would your reply fit?
Is it the "I'm taking my ball and going home" category? Or perhaps the "I don't have anything nice to say" but I'll still reply and get my little jab in while portraying myself at a higher level. Hmmm. It borders on those that use the "I don't like to get dirty wrestling with a pig" as they end their post right after they take a few pokes themselves that were no better than the comments they were referring.
So any posts you don't agree with, varying opinions not in line with yourself, a topic you don't like, or something too close to the truth, and it automatically invokes a response denigrating in nature towards the other person.
I simply expressed some of my feelings towards the master bee programs. But I see it's just easier to throw mud, and claim superior "something" while adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.
So my comments are off the wall? The forum should invite ideas and comments from across the board. Good, bad and indifferent. I am glad I don't follow the same sheep crowd and think like everyone else. You should try it sometimes.
Varying opinions and other people's ideas are the very reason I come here. ;)
Forgive my reply if you were really talking about tillie. :-D
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Our State Association has been kicking around the idea of a Master Beekeeping program for awhile, and as part of that, we've gathered information on Master Beekeeping programs from around the country. Huge differences! Some programs are quite rigorous both academically and practically, while others are rather simple in comparison.
Most of them feature different options or paths to obtain the "Master" title so that it is obtainable by hobby beekeepers (like me). The skills needed to manage 100 colonies, 1000 colonies, or a half-dozen hives in one's backyard are quite different. While I don't think one needs to be a full-time commerical beekeeper to qualify as "master", I have trouble with the notion that someone who has never had more than few backyard colonies can call themselves a "Master Beekeeper". Seems disingenuous.
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Indy, I sure want to encourage you to go forward with this. It doesn't matter what you call the levels - if you think a Master Beekeeper should have a 100 colonies, restrict that title to people who qualify by having that many colonies.
What matters is that you set up something that encourages people to grow and learn in their beekeeping.
I was a sailing counselor at a summer camp all through college and set up a certification program for the campers. They worked their way through the levels which, by the way, were called Ensign, Lieutenant, Captain and Admiral. I can guarantee the campers, most of whom had no access to a sailboat other than at camp, were hardly comparable to a real Admiral when they achieved that level of certification, but the increasing levels helped inspire them to learn more each summer.
In Georgia we have a level above master beekeeper which is master craftsman beekeeper. There is only one person in the state who has ever qualified at that level. He is a fireman in real life, so he is not a commercial beekeeper, but he has kept hundreds of colonies and done removals for years. To meet the requirements for master craftsman, the sub-specialties include many accomplishments which require that one have many, many colonies and many skills. The line on the UGA Master Beekeeper program page (http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/master-beekeeper/levels.html#master_craftsman) says that achieving it is equivalent to getting an advanced degree.
Perhaps the title "master" is the reason people have such a reaction. In real life I have a PhD. I don't call myself "Dr." although I have earned it and some people do address me that way, especially my Emory students. I teach and work in my private practice at a doctoral level in my field every day , but I am well aware that having a doctorate doesn't mean I know everything possible to know about psychology.
Again, a degree, a certification level, a title (unless you are born into a title in a country with royalty), generally means you have worked to attain knowledge and are pushing yourself to grow. At the same time, it doesn't mean that other people who haven't gone through the process are not also equally knowledgeable - they simply are choosing a different way to go about it.
Linda T
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"I don't have anything nice to say" but I'll still reply and get my little jab in while portraying myself at a higher level"
"So any posts you don't agree with, varying opinions not in line with yourself, a topic you don't like, or something too close to the truth, and it automatically invokes a response denigrating in nature towards the other person."
Yes, that is exactly how I read your post. Thanks for explaining your intentions.
"I simply expressed some of my feelings towards the master bee programs. But I see it's just easier to throw mud, and claim superior "something" while adding absolutely nothing to the discussion."
I read it more like this:
"Rather than express some of my feelings towards the master bee programs, it's just easier to throw mud, and claim superior "something" while adding absolutely nothing to the discussion."
Personally, I think you are just trolling for attention, and would likely have came out in favor of the program if Tillie had been against it. I've gotten that feeling from several posts lately.
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I applaud those who do talks and educate the public. Myself...I have one this Sunday at a state park. But I don't need a title to do such things for the bee industry.
Weren't you banned from the local park?
Something about howling at the Moon and screaming at inanimate objects. What, did you get the ankle bracelet off again? :evil:
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Well obviously the education and the certification has to be controlled. We may disagree about how it is controlled and the methods and such. If it weren't then it would be a beekeeping Woodstock (or is that Bud's??) :-D
But it is all based on an average of what we know, and rolling averages of history aren't what is current, and change slowly.
Maybe instead of speaking out AGAINST the "establishment" it might be better to have more apply and get certified and work on changing it from the inside!
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You can all so go to EAS get a certification from Master Beekeeper's Certification Program
http://www.easternapiculture.org/master-beekeepers/certification.html (http://www.easternapiculture.org/master-beekeepers/certification.html)
BEE HAPPY Jim :)
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"There are many great ways to learn beekeeping and experience is not the only teacher. There are plenty of people for whom a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but then there are plenty more who share and have great ways of imparting their knowledge - like Michael Bush, for example, whose web site is exemplary and who is always kind in his feedback to people here."
Tillie,
I still agree with you and Iddee. One of the biggest problems in the community is the lack of individuals willing to educate! Me and my father-in-law like to fish at the beach, and we have the same problem. Everything is a big secret, and no one will tell you anything! I have respect for the nice replies and educators. Many people offer to buy bees after a removal job when the beekeeper talks to and educates them during the removal.
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So we are suggesting that through the master programs, those who want to get "certified" are the only ones who teach, while the rest never do. Ok.
So the answer of some perceived notion that enough do not "teach" is to have master programs to fill this void.
Around here, almost every county has a club. This is a place where they have spring workshops, beginner courses, and monthly meetings. I have never seen a question go unanswered from a person asking questions at a meeting. What a slap in the face to tens of thousands of beekeepers who attend, assist, and promote beekeeping inside and outside the confines of the local associations.
Sorry, I see way more beekeeper not certified in schools, at the public venues, and assisting new folks. To suggest this does not happen without master bee programs is outright wrong and blowing smoke while selling a program on nothing close to the truth.
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""So we are suggesting that through the master programs, those who want to get "certified" are the only ones who teach, while the rest never do. Ok.""
Take the blinders off....
No, it doesn't mean that at all. It is just a way to give recognition to those who might want it. It takes nothing from the millions of others, nor does it deny that they exist.
PS. I really will never believe that you actually feel the way you are posting. I just see more trolling for an argument. You are much too smart to not see the program for what it is.
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I'm not a certified master beekeeper, and I've taught and talked about bees, and I can honestly say that I have never been slapped in my face or insulted by any master beekeeper certification program.
It sounds like only one person so far has felt that way.
Maybe master beekeeper certification and paint sensitivity go together!! :-D
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I'm not a certified master beekeeper, but I have been told that I am certifiable. On the serious side I do have deficit's due to a brain aneurysm, I would have a very difficult time taking a written test, and would not risk the expense it would cost me to attend a costly class. I think it is great for people who can, man I really like bees though. :-D
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I lean a little toward Mike's point of view on this. Although I do know some great "master" beekeepers, I know several that think since they are certified that they are better beekeepers than others with much more experience and insight. One in particular has been handing out the worst advice I've ever heard (had one poor woman buy 7 different queens to try to fix a drone laying hive...all of which were killed of course).
Scott
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So we are suggesting that through the master programs, those who want to get "certified" are the only ones who teach, while the rest never do. Ok.
I don't get it Bjornbee - I never said that - as a matter of fact I started this post to support going through certification for the learning process.
I've taken so many beekeeping classes and workshops from people who have knowledge about beekeeping - some of them have gone through certification but many haven't.
- Keith Delaplane isn't certified as a master beekeeper but he's a PhD in entomology and is a fantastic fount of knowledge and a good teacher
- I don't know if Michael Bush has gone through a certification but I will sit at his feet or follow him around a beeyard, learning every second of it if I should get the opportunity
- Jerry Wallace, one of the best beekeepers I know in Atlanta and a good teacher never took any kind of certification
- Don Kuchenmeister who is an amazing beemaster isn't a man of education or bee certification but shares his knowledge generously and well with everyone who stops at his place in Lula..I think he is a natural teacher and is kind in the process
This thread is about learning beekeeping - not about teaching. The encouragement I was trying to give and the point I have been trying to make is that working through levels of certification is a great way to learn about beekeeping and keeps people in an open-to-learning mode, not to mention all of the helpful public service that is involved.
Linda T frustrated by the earlier thread that I never posted on and discouraged now by the tone of this one
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I have nothing against certifications--- to each his own! I think what does turn off the folks that don't particular care for the certifications is the fact of hearing folks say I am John Doe and I am a Master-beekeeper.
And then you should be proud of your accomplishments just don't lean on the title too hard :-D
On a side note, after reading this thread, I have been thinking about starting a thread on one of my pet peeves ---- Honey SHOWS!!! But it may get too volatile :-D and then again maybe not :-\
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Hobby beekeeping. Certification that you a good hobbiest.
Swimming certification = you managed alive from pool.
I have a free hobby and I need not anybody to tell how I nurse my bees.
Makes no sence. Am I good. Of course not and I do not want to listen my syns.
My wife's regrets are enough to me.
Do I live like I teach - no......
A beekeeper needs a certification that he/she use brains.
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When I started SCUBA diving about 30 years ago, I dove every chance I had.
I got my basic certification and had a lot of fun.
There were very few crappy dives.
I dove weekly in fast water, murky water, wrecks, deep, night, anything, and after a couple of years, I met a fellow named Matt who became a good friend and dive buddy.
He was a Certified Master Diver, and one day I asked him about me doing the master diver thing.
He told me that I already had done everything they would teach me.
He said that the certification was a good framework to acquire the knowledge.
I think it's the same with the Master Beekeeper.
You get exposed to a lot that might take a long time to learn otherwise.
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A beekeeper needs a certification that he/she use brains.
If you had ever worked in a hospital you would say scratch the beekeeper part and put "people in general"
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PS. I really will never believe that you actually feel the way you are posting. I just see more trolling for an argument. You are much too smart to not see the program for what it is.
I meant ever word.
I am not one to persue labling and restrictive, divisive and limiting, or a caste system of alienation of individuals.
Take the EAS master program. What are the true benefits?
I see it as something that gives EAS a marketing tool. Something to boost attendance. And something to give them control of some slice of the industry. They even became upset in years past when other associations and state level groups started using the term "Master Beekeeper".
I don't give preference in friends, or how I value someone based on any title. I don't think those with MD, Colonel, or master beekeeper, are any better individuals than anyone else without those titles. I base my respect and interst in the person standing in front of me on things like character, morals, principles, etc. As I said, I don't see the industry benefit to the public by master this or that, when most of the work is from those not master beekeepers.
Maybe it's just me. I have enough regulation, enough certification, and enough box defining measures in my life. Certification often is just the means to other restrictive measures and requirements down the road. I see now where the industry is pushing for "pure honey certification" and having a label stamp for those who want to take part in the program. Making those who do not want to go through the certification with the idea to the public that their product is not pure.
As with any industry, it always slides towards more restrictions, certification, and control. In the overall scheme of things, master programs conditions many that grouping, separating, and labling folks, is good for all involved. And I don't see it that way. Yes, I see certification being used for many industries and a real benefit. But the bee industry hardly is in the same category as with some industries where health and safety are issues being addressed with certifications. And I could only imagine a day when being a beekeeper is only allowed once a person is first "certified" and issued a permit. And since a "certification program: (ie. master programs) are already are in place, who do you suppose will be the first to support and approve such certification? Of course, those on control and your state universities. Not many see it coming down the road. But after the fact, usually many ask "How did we get to this point?....which is usually too late for any change.
I know it's natural for folks to want to be part of something. A gang, MC, etc. It is also natural for folks to want to feel special by labels and plaques on the wall. Many studies have been done on the "clan" mentality of the human spirit.
Just don't be surprised when not everyone feels that same way. ;)
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tillie, one should never be discouraged or criticized for bettering themselves or encouraging others to. Ignore the blowhards and be proud of what you have done. I may be new to beekeeping, but I'm certainly not new at life.
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tillie, one should never be discouraged or criticized for bettering themselves or encouraging others to. Ignore the blowhards and be proud of what you have done. I may be new to beekeeping, but I'm certainly not new at life.
That is the attitude that is part of the problem. It's the "I'm better" because I have a title..."master beekeeper".
Of course, calling others who happen to have differing opinions "blowhards" is a bit childish. You must already be a "master beekeeper".... :-D Feel special do you? :roll:
Got to run. Bees are waiting. I'll be back to read the replies later. Can we at least be creative and lets see who comes up with the best name calling post. iddee...you out there? I gave you lots to digest. :-*
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>That is the attitude that is part of the problem. It's the "I'm better" because I have a title..."master beekeeper".
~I don't recall tillie ever saying or inferring that she was better than anybody else, all she did was try to learn more about something she enjoys, and encourage others to do the same.
>You must already be a "master beekeeper".... Feel special do you?
~Nope, I'm not a master anything, I'm just trying to learn, that's why I'm here. Fortunately most people here are willing to share their knowledge and experience with others.
As for the name calling and future replies...you don't have to worry about me, I've already said my piece.
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I'm here, but I see no reason to continue, unless you decide to take the blinders off and see what is really in the other posts.
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Very early I made to myself a goal, he bettre beekeeper I am, the better yields.
Then I realized that a good yield depends on good pastures.
I must have a certificate that I am good in pasture seeking.
Jee, and Master of Bee Googling.....
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I'm here, but I see no reason to continue, unless you decide to take the blinders off and see what is really in the other posts.
So one must see things as you do to have a conversation. Hmmmm.
I think you as well as others have jumped to conclusions about my disdain for certification processes, and the minutia surrounding them, and have come to conclusion that I am against higher learning or ones willingness to strive to be the best that one can be.
I think perhaps some (like you.....thinking this was a "lets bash Tillie" thread) took my comments about the master beekeeping program, and let it become personal. Then it's just a natural step to condemn or denigrate comments not in line with yourself in some self rationalization.
Sorry iddee. It's not about Tillie. It's not about one seeking educational opportunities, or striving to be a better beekeeper. It is the process of certification by separating folks into labeled boxes, with a bit of self arrogance of those that run around calling themselves "master" beekeepers.
Keep it in perspective, and maybe you would have something to add to the conversation instead of comments that add little and border on refusing to engage in a conversation for the fact of differing perspectives or wrong assumptions.
Have a good day! :-D
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I'm actually thinking of starting a "Supreme bee commander" certification program....certificates will be hand written on bar napkins :-D
Scott
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Yes, Master..........
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scads--woodstock-- would that bee lots of people out enjoying themselves. like a young lady quivering all over as she hives her first swarm or some one who has never looked in a hive and mentions it and another like jp, shawee, allan buckley, scott or mike holland take them out and go through a hive and explain everything hands on not sitting around a table getting the proper technique explaied to them which you will never see happning here.we also have our pet comercial guy (bruce hanson 3500 hives) explain all the ends and outs or the big comercial end of bee keeping.
we even have a little music and some fine meed
sorry Miss Tilly
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BjornBee,
For someone who is so against certifications and titles, you sure do proudly post on your website that you are a "Certified Breeder of Northern Raised Queens and Nucs." Does this certification make you a better queen and nuc breeder than someone who is not certified? If so, how and why? Just wondering!
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In Finnish beekeeping forum my tittle is "six star airforce marshall". Coud I be better?
My airforces are bees and I am the highest commander. That suits to me.
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i can identify with both of the extremes on this one...let me offer a thought.
the problem is not the process of certification...learninv is good.
once you have a group called "certified master beekeeper" a higher standard is implied. when you have some individuals in that group that do not live up to that standard (can't identify foulbrood, gives poor advice, demonstrates a lack of understanding, etc) -while- boasting about their title or claiming superior expertise...it reflects badly on all who use the title....just like a single dirty cop will make all on the force suspect.
we ve all heard horror stories or experienced this with master beekeepers from time to time.
this happens whenever there is a group where some individuals come up short...priests, boy scout leaders, teachers....most are well meaning and trustworthy....but those that are not make all suspect.
there is plenty of bad advice coming from non master beekeepers, but since they are not part of a small identifiable group (claiming to be extra knowldgeable), they don't stand out in the same way.
deknow
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BjornBee,
For someone who is so against certifications and titles, you sure do proudly post on your website that you are a "Certified Breeder of Northern Raised Queens and Nucs." Does this certification make you a better queen and nuc breeder than someone who is not certified? If so, how and why? Just wondering!
I was waiting for someone to go down this path. ;)
If you have read my posts over time, I have clearly stated time and time again, that if given the chance, I would vote to end the state inspection program. Since I am legally forced to pay a fee, get inspected, and play along to stay in business, then yes, I should also benefit from letting others know I do in fact have that piece of paper. I would rather allow free market forces and the merit of any business, including myself, to be judged on the quality and history of my product. Not some piece of paper issued by a part-time inspector who happened to take the job as summer employment while working on a college degree.
Does it make me better than the next guy? Not for the bases of a piece of paper. The consumer and my product distinguishes that.
Now we all do live in the real world. And from the amount of posts on this thread from folks who value titles and certification as way more than what they are worth, is it smart business to list the fact that my operation is certified? You bet. I'll play that stupid game. But I would rather have much more intelligent folks who would buy from me for better reasons that that. ;)
Does being certified make my bees any better for the mere fact that some inspector visited my place for an hour? No. Just like the bottle of honey produced by a master beekeeper is no better than the next beekeeper who did not take the time, have the money, or has a fear of public speaking, thus not allowing him to boast of some title.
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I'm trying to put this argument into some kind of perspective that make sense. I see beekeepers coming together in a beekeeping forum to talk about beekeeping. Yet, they seem to deride the education for the very thing we're all here for, beekeeping. Or, is the derision being placed on the higher end of the educational process? I'm not sure.
If you wish to be contemptuous of individual blowhards who like to promote themselves by diminishing others. Then carry on, let me get out of the way. Such people exist whether they've been certified OR have kept bees for decades. Neither have a monopoly on ignorance! If people don't want to display manners then education or experience isn't going to change that.
Or, if you wish to argue about WHAT gets taught for certification. By all means do so, but arguing THAT people get certified!? What the Hell are you thinking?
I implore the greater majority of beekeepers ('greater' in this instance means both Quality & Quantity) to understand that Experience comes from Education and that Education comes from Experience. They beget each other.
Do i need to explain the harm in separating these: experience from education? Let me say that again; Do you need to have the harm that separating these would cause explained to you!
I say that because it seems to me that someone in these threads it deliberately trying to divide people.
Does anyone know of a profession were the members decry the institutions that educate the membership? What if we were lawyers. Would one of us say to a new guy,
"Passing the BAR exam doesn't make you a lawyer. Winning a court case does".
Then another lawyer says,
"Yeah, we should scrap the BAR entirely".
Do you see how that doesn't make much sense?
Here in Virginia we have lost half of the beekeepers & bee population we had in the mid-eighties. So in case you haven't realized this, we need MORE of us. Getting More of us means there had better be some educational programs made available to the masses AND experienced beeks better start harboring apprentices.
That being done,...well congratulations, that's the idea!
I do not see how making 'More' beeks is accomplished by US bickering like a bunch of 'Sneetches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories)'! It's demoralizing.
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I say that because it seems to me that someone in these threads it deliberately trying to divide people.
Now go easy on them. I still don't think some understand the division that the master bee programs promote. Even though I have pointed out that distinction more than once. :-D Glad you got it.... ;)
Labeling one person "Master" and the next not, based on the ability of one person to attend, pay, and pass a test which carries the weight of toilet paper, is about divisive as it gets.
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Thank you Hemlock. That is the most intelligent post in this thread.
love,
ziffa
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Do we will have "top bar masters" and "small cell masters". They are cream of beek folks.
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Send me $95.99 and I'll send a correspondence exam on-line. Then you too, can label yourself, promote yourself, and declare...yourself......."Master __________". Just fill in the blank space yourself. ;) For an extra 14.95 we will also include an official "looking" certificate embossed with your name on it. A Great addition to any wall, honeyhouse, or honey stand.
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Thank you Hemlock. That is the most intelligent post in this thread.
love,
ziffa
Which part? Please do tell.
Was it the part whining about others dividing folks, while defending a program that divides folks?
Am I close? :-D
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This, like many beekeeping debates, could go on forever. Sometimes we must agree to disagree on certain topics!
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But fuel for the fire keeps the treads warm.
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But fuel for the fire keeps the treads warm.
Very True, I did not say the debating was not fun and entertaining. Nothing gets you thinking and racking your brain like a good ole debate.
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scads--woodstock-- would that bee lots of people out enjoying themselves.
I know all that Bud! It sounded like a good ol' time and fun, and was jealous I couldn't make it, just thought I'd have fun with it!! :-D
Based on what Tillie has said her Master Certification process was, it was the exact opposite of what Bjorn has just described what his certification process is.
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sorry scads, reading bejourns toilet paper always kinda :-x