Cell size question

[dlmarti]

When doing my research I keep reading the same two sentences;
1. Older comb contains more drone cells.
2. As comb gets older (used more) the comb size gets smaller.

Given that drone cells are larger, how are both of these sentences true?  :?

[Understudy]

When doing my research I keep reading the same two sentences;
1. Older comb contains more drone cells.

Not true. The age of comb does not affect the number of drones.

2. As comb gets older (used more) the comb size gets smaller.

Given that drone cells are larger, how are both of these sentences true?  :?

True, older comb does have smaller cell sizes. The bees will make drone comb as they need to either in the form of burr comb or some other means.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Michael Bush]

Assuming you start with worker foundation, bees, over time, will rework parts of the comb into drone comb.  The longer they have it the more they have reworked.  The ones they have not reworked get smaller from generations of cocoons.  At least until they finally get down to natural size then they chew them back out as the cocoons build up.

[Romahawk]

The ones they have not reworked get smaller from generations of cocoons.  At least until they finally get down to natural size then they chew them back out as the cocoons build up.

Michael are you saying that when the cell size gets down to what some call natural size that the bees chew them back out to a larger size or they chew out the cocoons only when the cell size becomes less than what is termed natural size?  :?

[Understudy]

They chew out the extra cocoons to keep the cell size at 4.9mm

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[dlmarti]

Thanks guys.

[Michael Bush]

>Michael are you saying that when the cell size gets down to what some call natural size that the bees chew them back out to a larger size or they chew out the cocoons only when the cell size becomes less than what is termed natural size?

Yes.  Exactly.  They may let them get down to about 4.4mm and then chew them out to about 4.7mm but that's about their tolerance for smaller sizes.

[Finsky]

They chew out the extra cocoons to keep the cell size at 4.9mm

That is true not at all. Bees make "natural cells". I ahev measured them in my hives 5,3.

When combs are old or moldy, bees chew them away and make new and they are 5,3 if they are used to build that size. If they use to build 4,8, they do it.

It is not universal order that bees want to make smaller cells than beekeper. In most  countries it is measured 5,3 mm.

Bee breeding started when man invited frames. So it is possible to change a queen and selcet queens.

Great progress arised when man started to use instrumental insemination 60 years ago.

When man has selected productive bees, the size of bees has grown 10%. It is same with Apis cerana.

If you follow the course of domestical animals, they are not same as in nature.

Some have become smaller. Finnish reindeer is smaller than it's wild relatives. Russian reindeers are figger than Finnsih.

Salmons are now smaller than before because net fishing catches biggest salmons first. So, Salmon is regressed. 90% of our salmons in nature are man breeded.


********

When you live among other beekeepers, it is difficult to keep own strain of bees.  That is why I suggest that don't waste time with that matter. It is vain effort.


When we had 20 years ago feral bees (german black) it was really difficult to keep yard in satisfactory condition. Those mad ferals were so quick in  mating that most of new queens had german black workers. - Awfull. I nursed them 30 years. Nothing good to say, but it was that time. Then Varroa killed  feral bees. I have not seen them for 15 years.

In Tasmania there are very mean German Black feral stock. It have not changed even if Italian have brought tens of years to Tasmania.

German Black was the first race which was brought to USA. Do you have them any more?

.

[Jerrymac]

That is true not at all. Bees make "natural cells". I ahev measured them in my hives 5,3.

I thought you gave your bees foundation because it used too much honey to make all that wax. Now you are saying you let the bees do it naturally?

[Finsky]

 Now you are saying you let the bees do it naturally?

Time with you goes with arguing, do I use foundations or not? - Do I know it myself. Two things I remember it was something like dementia and .... I dont remember that second   ....

I have situations where bees have made their own combs. I have forgotten a frame home and I cannot put one in place.
I have reared queens and they have done combs in empty space.
Burr between brames
Their own extar combs when I give foundations and they have opportunity to trie their own.

I have cut brood comb zone off and bees repair the hole in fall with worker cells.

The black is same as bees chew away old combs. It is normal if you keep combs too long.

40 years ago cerbs were quite usual in our country. They had only natural combs in cerbs. I ahve never heard that taht system was something special. Yield was something 10-20 kg per hive . Now I get 80 kg.
Should I go back 40 years or even 200 years like Michael proposes.
.

[Jerrymac]

So you really don't understand regressing bees do you. And I have to wonder why you would ever have bothered to measure the cell size since you think all is as it should be.

[Finsky]

So you really don't understand regressing bees do you. And I have to wonder why you would ever have bothered to measure the cell size since you think all is as it should be.

Heh heh. Then I am able to say that "I know, I have researched". I am glad that my bees are not regressing themselves.

[Jerrymac]

Then I am able to say that "I know, I have researched". I am glad that my bees are not regressing themselves.

What have you researched? Not small/natural cell for sure. The only research I have ever seen posted was a very flawed experiment. Yet you post them like there are no flaws in those so called studies.

You know nothing about small cell. Never tried it, yet you put it down every chance you get.

Another great one you proclaim is Varroa is not a problem. Varroa is your friend. Yet you keep pumping oxalic acid into your hives. Why? To get rid of your friends?

Some one says they want to keep bees without having to pour chemicals into their hives, and you tell them they can't. That there is no way to do it. And yet there are many people here and on other lists that have kept bees for many years with no treatments.

[Finsky]

 And yet there are many people here and on other lists that have kept bees for many years with no treatments.

Good luck to them! To keep bees and get honey are very different matters.

I am able to read your official reports about varroa and they are not nice readings. Pour oxalic acid? Trickle or spray are right communicating terms .

Sure. Whole world is fingting against varroa and you say that "many manage for many years with no treatments" . Very funny. I have seen so much mites and bees that it is really funny. Don't teach duck to swim. Remember that.

***********

As every one can see, it is so productive to discuss with small cell guys. First year beekeeper can abandon all earlier skills in beekeeping.

"When you know only one thing, you know all".

[tig]

it's good to see you back posting finsky!

[Jerrymac]

Sure. Whole world is fingting against varroa and you say that "many manage for many years with no treatments" . Very funny. I have seen so much mites and bees that it is really funny.

Yes I believe there are a few on the Beemaster forum that make this claim. But I guess you don't believe them.

"When you know only one thing, you know all".

Then perhaps you need to go learn about another way to keep bees.

[Michael Bush]

>Sure. Whole world is fingting against varroa and you say that "many manage for many years with no treatments" .

I know a lot of people who have managed for many years with no treatments.  Why does that no interest you?

>Very funny. I have seen so much mites and bees that it is really funny.

I found it amazing and it's why I went that way.

> Don't teach duck to swim.

Or bees hot to fly or bees how to make comb, or bees how to handle Varroa...

[Brian D. Bray]

The best teacher in beekeeping is not research but experience.  Try it, then if doesn't work trash it.  All the reports about small cell have been very limited in scope and therefore inconclusive. 

How many shots at a hoop with a basketball does it take before you make a basket?  Once, the very first time?  A 100 times before you get the knack?   Hit and Miss?  I'm a 100 times man myself. 

[Finsky]

The best teacher in beekeeping is not research but experience.  Try it, ........

And Brian is telling how to learn things?

Why I am hanging in internet? I have dated my old knowledge with new information. So I thought that do I take that information to grave?  I started to deliver information, what I have found. BUt I can se that beekeepers do not what that knowledge because nature takes care their bees :-D

Most of beekeepers are not able to read, select or understand researched information. However they try to clarify to them selves WHY things happens. So they do their own "inventions" in their small head. That is experience.  They do not give up their old attitudes.

Why most? Because the average age of beekeepers is 60 years. And it is not so necessary to learn......old memories are becoming clearer....

For excample, 10 years ago it was found that there are no worker queen and shaking bees on ground is vain.  Brian, don't offer it any more.

Even if I have put those documents here to read, many here offer that old believer's trick.

Natural beekeepers have made their own belief and it is OK , but when they start to claim others "chemical beekeepers", I will become angry.

There are so many believes in natural beekeeping that it cannot stand many basic facts.  It is mostly lack of knowledge.

To try small cells  - Why?

[Brian D. Bray]

From a practial standpoint, honey yield being to main goal, experience is more important than research.

Good forage, proper beekeeping practices, natural pest control methods and I can get 300 lbs of honey per hive per year.  I hear your story about academics.  Sometimes a person can become so educated they forget common sense (not saying you have).  If you're not will to explore and learn from the experience, too bad.  Personally I find the hands on method more substansive than reading technical journals.  I, too, used to doubt some of the things I now advocate because I didn't let a paper education get in the way of hands on experience.

Lets agree to disagree on this one.