Help!

[sean]

Hello everyone. I am getting a hive of bees if i can get them out of the rock they are living in. I understand the rock is real large, I have no bait i.e lemon grass, swarm catcher etc. what is the best way to get them?

[Jorn Johanesson]

when I remove a swarm from a tree I drill a hole beneath the entrance hole. then I pump with my smoker in the drilled hole. If there is an extra entrance hole in the rock this could be done there twoo. other wise make some heavy noise, drumming on the rock, or give it up. Sorry not much of help I am afraid of.

[Cindi]

Sounds like deep water to me, I wouldn't even try.  Maybe someone may have great idea. Greatday.Cindi

[Michael Bush]

I've never taken bees out of a rock.  It's not a place we see bees here.  If there is some way to attach a screen wire cone, you can trap them out.  If the cavity is below the entrance, you can flood them out.  You could try one of the bee repellents, like Fischer's Bee Quick, or moth balls to try to drive them out.  I never had much luck with smoke.  I wouldn't count on getting the queen.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesferal.htm

[mick]

I wonder what would happen if you put a super next to the rock?

[sean]

I have been toying with the idea of putting a super on or near the hole with a frame of brood in it to entice them out.

[Scadsobees]

Or just keep a bait hive or two nearby for when they swarm.  And leave the parent hive.

[Trot]

The only way to get them out with the queen, is by drumming. That has been done, home in Europe, for centuries. But, perhaps now, that too has become an lost art?

One simply, methodically bits the tree trunk - starting on one end of cavity and slowly progress toward entrance. Idea is to produce steady vibration, which bees detest. One has to of course provide a hive close to the entrance with some kind of bridge for the bees to walk across into their new home. (rubber mallet is best.)
As you already guessed, a frame of brood will help.
I hope that that rock is not too thick and can produce some vibration.

Have you thought about, what to do with combs and possible brood in the old cavity?

Regards,
Trot

[Cindi]

The only way to get them out with the queen, is by drumming. That has been done, home in Europe, for centuries. But, perhaps now, that too has become an lost art?
One has to of course provide a hive close to the entrance with some kind of bridge for the bees to walk across into their new home. (rubber mallet is best.)
As you already guessed, a frame of brood will help.
Regards,
Trot

Trot said some very good stuff and  Jorn mentioned this "drumming" as well.  I have read over and over in the older bee books that I have read about the drumming.  It was very commonplace, and as Trot says had been performed for centuries.  Try that for sure. 

To add on to what Trot said, about the bridge for the bees to walk across to their new home.  Remember bees love to walk uphill too, so if you could get the box elevated just a little bit with the rubber mallet or piece of wood or anything as a bridge going uphill, your luck would increase even more, should you be able to "drum" them out of their home and they would march onwards and upwards hopefully.  They probably have been there for years I would bet. 

Now Trot, I would imagine that a frame of capped brood would be better than open brood to bait them with the new home?  Or do you think that this would matter.  I would wonder though (the brood would have to be covered with bees to ensure heat for the babies, correct?)  If the bees were drummed out, found the hive, entered to tend to the brood, would there be a fight going on with the bees in the rock going into the nurse bees hive?  These are some questions that I would love to hear answers about.   I wish you luck with capturing this colony in the depth of the deep large rock.  Great day. Cindi.

[sean]

have been reading up on the drumming thing, so i will be trying it. If i can get the brood out then so much the better, if not...  We have a serious shortage of wax here so i will be trying to get as much of the comb as i can get.

[Trot]

Well Cindi, you will really get me to exercise my gray cells now, won't you?

It has been a long time ago, since I have watched my grand father do the drumming.
I do remember that the frame had open brood though.  Of course, it is hard to get such a frame without the bees - they are part of it! They instinctively go on such a frame - to warm it - to take care of it.

I do not remember any fighting bees. I would say that such, marching bees, drummed bees, fill themselves with honey.
It is not like - as if one was to disturb the bees in winter time. Then bees come out of the hive unprepared and if they take flight - they are lost! Even if they wander about for too long their chances diminish with every step...
In other words: The bee with a job to do, takes in a certain amount of honey. (They know how much - by bee-dance) Which is fuel for a flight, for warmth, for energy...to get to the flower. That is why poking around hives is not a good idea in cold weather.
So, IMO such drummed bees have with them a supply of honey and are readily accepted in other hives. Such thing is a regular, daily occurrence in a bee yard...

Well, my two cents worth is just about dried up... :) ;)

[Cindi]

Frank, don't let your two cents ever dry up.  Your words are those of wisdom, that after pondering momentarily make alot of sense -- and I think that they help many a new beekeeper (and probably a seasoned one too).

Of course, what you say about the bees being filled with honey after drumming makes absolute and perfect sense.  The drumming must scare the poor bees half to death, as does the smoke that we give to them, they must believe that a horrible forest fire is coming their way.  They fill up to go on their journey, and not having the bee dance to govern the amount they consume, they probably fill till they are almost going to explode.  Gotta actually wonder how they can fly?  LOL.

Right, when bees try to enter a different hive with a load of nectar, they are accepted by the guards, with great joy I am sure.  All this makes such sense.  Great day.  Cindi

[Trot]

Thank you Cindi for such nice words.

I will try to clarify something you said: Drummed bees are not scared at all.  They simply don't like vibrations and quite calmly and contended walk right out of their home.

It is said that bees feel a lot with their feet. (science is still out on that!?)  IMO they get the message that perhaps some great calamity is on a horizon, (like perhaps an quake?)
Perhaps some day that too will be answered - hopefully someone with a lot sharper pencil than mine...

[Cindi]

I will try to clarify something you said: Drummed bees are not scared at all.  They simply don't like vibrations and quite calmly and contended walk right out of their home.
It is said that bees feel a lot with their feet. (science is still out on that!?)  IMO they get the message that perhaps some great calamity is on a horizon, (like perhaps an quake?)
Perhaps some day that too will be answered - hopefully someone with a lot sharper pencil than mine...

OK, good, I am happy that drumming does not actually scare them.  I presume that "scared" was indeed a wrong terminology to use.  I remember reading somewhere that bees also do not like thunder.  I would imagine that when thunder roars, there is incredible vibration in the air even that we cannot feel, but the bees can.  That is all very interesting stuff.  I also read that (now remember, this is just stuff I have read) when one has their bees on the deck of a truck or vehicle, that they should leave the motor running instead of turning it off, probably speaking about when loading boxes maybe, can't quite remember.  Think it said something about the motor starting and causing vibration that annoys the bees.  Interesting.  OK, great day Frank, Cindi

[Michael Bush]

>They simply don't like vibrations and quite calmly and contended walk right out of their home.

I've drummed a lot of bees and never saw ALL of them, let alone the queen, walk right out of their home.  You can, however get a lot of them bearded and out, but, of course, they will go right back as soon as you stop.

I have no idea how it would work in stone.  In wood, you just need a simple tap tap tap, not anything hard or overwhelming.  In a box, I just use a pocket knife or a small pebble and tap the side of the box rhythmically.

[Cindi]

gotta catch them before they go back in when the drumming stops, real fastly.  Cindi

[sean]

I will be giving it a try in a few days and let you guys know how it went. I now understand that the hive has two entrances and both are high off the ground so i am not sure of how i will work that out but i am going to look at it on thursday

[Cindi]

Sean, GO FOR IT!!!  and good luck!!!  Great day. CIndi

[sean]

Well good news bad news. Bad news-The folks changed their minds so i didn't get the chance to try the knocking method thingy. Good news- no stings for me. The swelling of my hands was just going down from last week with my bees when i went back in their on christmas morning. needless to say they didn't take too kindly to my visit so the hands are back up there

[Cindi]

Sean.  Why did the people change their minds?  It is too bad cause you would have probably have had an adventure that would remain with you for the rest of your life.  Great day. Cindi