Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Cindi on December 24, 2006, 09:07:12 am

Title: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on December 24, 2006, 09:07:12 am
Thought I would start a new post, sometimes I find the topics get so long I have a hard time going through all the posts in in.

There was fantastic advice about honey ripening, supers and brood chambers from several of our forum members.  What a great place to learn and listen.

Getting onto the point about the unlimited brood chamber.  it seems that many beekeepers allow the queen the free reign of the entire hive, without the excluder.  Now, what I want to know is:

1.  If the queen has access to everywhere, she obviously likes to lay her eggs where it is warmest, would she not go up high into the honey supers to lay eggs there, rather than lower where it is cooler?  I read Finsky puts a box on the bottom that is for the nectar, it is usually empty, as she is higher where it is warmer.

2.  What if the queen laid frames in several chambers and there was not enough bees to keep the brood warm enough because the bees were so spread out.  Would this happen, would there be problems with that?

Great day. Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: tig on December 24, 2006, 09:39:27 am
hi cindi,

     i'll give my 2 cents worth on this.  as a rule i dont like using an excluder but in some colonies i have to use one to restrict the queen from laying on the frames which have been laid out for honey.  my experience is that not all queens like to go up to the super and lay eggs.  but for those that do climb, i use the excluder to keep her in the bottom box.

     now regarding not having enough bees to care for the brood.  i use mainly carnolians and they are supposed to be the "smart bees", meaning the queen doesn't lay much if there is a lack of pollen and honey.  while generally true, misfortune can happen such as pesticide poisoning wherein a big number of foragers die, thereby lessening the population.  when this happens, the sudden decrease can severely affect the colony.  there may be a lack of population to regulate temperature and that usually causes chilled brood.  another is that the larva may not be fed sufficiently because the sudden loss of foragers means that several days may pass before the younger nurse bees mature enough to forage and if the colony doesn't have enough reserves, there isn't enough food for them to feed the larva.

     another observation is that if there are many drawn  combs, and few bees, the laying pattern of the queen is affected.  she tends to lay in a smaller circular pattern rather than the full frame text book kind. 

     i'm not sure if this holds true for other kinds of bees like the italians or russians, etc.  i would appreciate feedback from those who handle those kinds.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on December 24, 2006, 09:46:30 am
tig, thank you for the comments.  I have Carniolans (well, they should be, but sometimes the race is not pure).  They started out as package Carniolans from Australia each year (I have had 2 years of getting packages), but if the queens were superceded or anything then they became probably Italian, which is the common bee around here.

So, I have no clue what they are now.  When I see the queens in the spring, I probably will be able to tell by her colour.  I am so surprised how dark the Carniolan breed is, very pretty. 

I have not come across pesticide poisoning here so far.  I am hoping never to have this awful thing happen to the bees.  Great day. Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: tig on December 24, 2006, 10:14:24 am
it's something i never want to come across again.  i was inspecting my hives and in one of them i noticed dead bees in front. looking closer at the dead bees, they all had their tongues sticking out which i knew was a sign of poisoning.  when i opened the box, there was over an inch thick of dead bees on the bottom board.  i consider myself lucky that the queen survived.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on December 24, 2006, 11:19:55 am


     i'm not sure if this holds true for other kinds of bees like the italians or russians, etc.  i would appreciate feedback from those who handle those kinds.

I had 10 years Carniolans but they swarmed so much that I tired them.

Italian race is so wast that you may get what ever bees. It is necessary to get a good beginning with stock and you must  take care all the time the selection of mother queens where you take offsprings.

I do not use exluder even if queen goes to lay eggs to super.  When hone flow is strong bees store honey in brood area. I lift those frames up and give empty combs to brood area or foundations.
When honey flow ceases, I arrange honey combs and brood combs in order.
* Capped boxes to extraction
* Filled honey combs up,
* brood down and
* emty combs in the middle.
* mixed honey and brood combs to hive periferia that queen is not willing to lay eggs any more.

If combs are old/black  I lift frame upp and bees emerge.

This takes time but I want not to play with exluder. It needs again different style of nursing.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Kirk-o on December 24, 2006, 11:41:58 am
Hi I use th e unlimited brood nest thing works good for me.It is all hive to me.I'm
trying hard to enjoy beekeeping.I had none of my hives swarm this year useing this method and got plenty of honey. :) ;) :) :-D In nature bees don't need queen excluder
kirko
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Mici on December 24, 2006, 12:20:45 pm
unlimited brood chamber you say huh... the bees natural instinct should be considered, but many people, or should i say, the beekeeping "science" has gone WAY off during last hundred years. now...if you wanted bees to feel like in nature, you must not use excludor, that's obvius. putting on a super, should be done vice-versa than it is today (usually you put it on top, right?)  you should lift all boxes and slide the empty one underneath. this all makes sense if you look at bees in nature.
but then again, i have little exp.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on December 24, 2006, 01:15:07 pm
if you wanted bees to feel like in nature,

I just read that there are no nature mellifera any more.

During my nursing time beehive is 3-4 bigger than 40 years ago. Thanks to breeding.

Unlimited brood area is differnet when you speak the hives ahich have maxim 2 box, 4 box or 9 box.

I use 3 brood deeps.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Michael Bush on December 24, 2006, 01:40:20 pm
>1.  If the queen has access to everywhere, she obviously likes to lay her eggs where it is warmest, would she not go up high into the honey supers to lay eggs there, rather than lower where it is cooler?

But it's warmest in the middle of the brood nest.  Besides it's actually fairly irrelevant what the queen wants.  The workers decide to rear brood or remove eggs.  In my experience I only see them raise brood out of the brood nest if there is not enough drone comb in the brood nest.

>2.  What if the queen laid frames in several chambers and there was not enough bees to keep the brood warm enough because the bees were so spread out.

Bees seldom make that mistake.  If they do, they abandon some of the outlying brood and consolidate the cluster to the main brood nest.  The outlying brood is almost always drone brood and almost always there because you restricted the drone comb in the brood nest.

Some people say they run an unlimted brood nest and do use an excluder.  Some don't use an excluder.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Jerrymac on December 24, 2006, 02:36:41 pm
putting on a super, should be done vice-versa than it is today (usually you put it on top, right?)  you should lift all boxes and slide the empty one underneath. this all makes sense if you look at bees in nature.

I went after some bees in a storage shed wall. Thought I would find them in the top right??? Nope, they had started at the bottom and was building up.

I have found bees doing the opposite of what everyone says bees do.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Mici on December 24, 2006, 04:49:46 pm
hmm, strange. no matter from which angle you look at it, it's strange.
ever tried to put a starter strip at the bottom?
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Michael Bush on December 24, 2006, 07:45:03 pm
I have seen them start from the bottom and build up on a foundationless frame before.  It's one of the reasons I like to have a drawn comb in a box full of empty foundationless frames.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 27, 2006, 11:17:48 pm
The unlimited brood chamber works well.  I use 4 8 frame mediums for my dedicated brood chamber.  It usually provides sufficient space that the queen stays within those confines.  If she does go up I just move the extra brood frames down as all of my euipment is medium depth.  Uniformity is at its best with an unlimited brood chamber.  either way let the queen have all the space she needs during the spring and summer to build a strong foraging hive.  Then reduce the hive by moving frames as necessary at harvest time.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on December 28, 2006, 01:30:57 am
It is interesting all this information about the unlimited brood chamber.  It makes pretty good sense, and if the queen can move around, without getting the honey bound brood nest, it is probably really good swarm prevention too. 

I used a queen excluder last year on my colonies and I am now thinking, after reading so many experiences with ULBC that some of my brood nests may have become honeybound.  Inadequate supering, supering too late, so many small issues that arose from inexperience with beekeeping.

In reflection of some of my experiences over the past season, it has come to my attention a new matter.

I thought that I had such a severe infestation of varroa that it destroyed many of my colonies eventually.  I have a thought that perhaps there was indeed high levels,  but it may not be entire culprit that I thought it was.  Perhaps the queen had become honey bound and was not laying to her full capacity that she should have.  The result, decreased levels of brood, and we know that that carries on and afflicts the build up of the hives.  Correct?

This may have affected the strength of the colonies to even ward off the varroa mite.  There is so much pondering of ideas and advice, it is a good thing.

Do my summarizations regarding the above matters make sense to you other beekeepers that have so many years of beekeeping experience held in your hands?  I need to know, please correct me or advise if I am correct.  Great day all.  Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Michael Bush on December 28, 2006, 07:38:56 am
>Perhaps the queen had become honey bound and was not laying to her full capacity that she should have.  The result, decreased levels of brood, and we know that that carries on and afflicts the build up of the hives.  Correct?

What's more they usually swarm (and probably did when you didn't notice) which depletes the hive even more.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on December 28, 2006, 10:57:31 am
Michael, swarmed, maybe that occurred.  It probably  does not really take that long for the "swarm" to get out, leave and be gone before one even knows it I bet.  Don't they know that I would have tried to help with overcrowded conditions (LOL) so they wouldn't have to swarm?  Great day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 28, 2006, 11:10:28 pm
Lots of room before its time is the key to swarm pervention.  In the spring pull some empty frames and put in foundation.  This will get the bees into a comb building mode.  Bees building comb usually do not swarm.  The when supering add 2 at a time instead of just one.  Again more room keeps them building comb.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on December 29, 2006, 12:50:46 am
Lots of room before its time is the key to swarm pervention.  In the spring pull some empty frames and put in foundation.  This will get the bees into a comb building mode.  Bees building comb usually do not swarm.  The when supering add 2 at a time instead of just one.  Again more room keeps them building comb.

I am understanding more and more about bee behaviour.  So many more things make so much more sense, pertaining to the amount of reading I have been doing in this forum from advice from people who have been living among the bees for so many years.  Busy bees are happy bees in a nutshell.  Give them lots to do and they will not wander (LOL).  There has been so much advice on logical ways of handling bees.  Great day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on December 29, 2006, 01:55:32 am
  Bees building comb usually do not swarm. 

But a hive which have allready an intention to swarm, it does not build foundations. So Maarec says that do not add room with foundations into hive which is in danger to swarm.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Michael Bush on December 29, 2006, 08:34:06 am
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

Walt Wright has the most detailed break down of swarming and swarm preparations.  His address is in the above link.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on December 29, 2006, 10:54:35 am
  Bees building comb usually do not swarm. 

But a hive which have allready an intention to swarm, it does not build foundations. So Maarec says that do not add room with foundations into hive which is in danger to swarm.

So, that should be a good lesson to us all.  Swarm prevention.  Give them lots of foundation, BEFORE they get it into their heads to swarm.  Me in particular.  More understanding.  I think that maybe I had swarms occur that I did not know about for sure.  I saw supers that I had added that the bees did not even get around to working on alot with drawing comb.  I wondered why, because when I added these supers, the hives were very very full and I thought that they would have had them drawn out in no time. Hmmm...gotta focus really strongly on the swarm prevention technique this season.  Sounds like that is one of the most critical aspects of the colony build up, instead of "build down" (LOL).  Seasons come and seasons go, winter is heading off and spring will be coming, along with the dog days of summer.  Great day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on December 29, 2006, 11:14:47 am

This is best what I have seen

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/PDFs/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf

Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 30, 2006, 09:40:43 pm
Cindi,
I see your learning curve in action.  You are now connecting the dots.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on January 01, 2007, 02:09:54 am
Cindi,
I see your learning curve in action.  You are now connecting the dots.

Brian, I have to honestly say, that (I have been involved with bees since my introductory Level 1 Beekeeping in April 2005) it has only been in the past month or so, that finally, all the information gathering that I have been doing for almost two years now, through reading, courses, forum members help, and so on, that I am just now really and deeply beginning to connect the dots.  It has taken this long to finally feel like I am beginning to get the gist of all the stuff about bees.  I don't think that I am a slow learner by no means, but I believe that there is so much to learn, understanding the biology of the bee, and so many other habits, that it takes years to even begin to really start to "get it, (them)".  I have not even touched the edge, I know that. But one day I hope to be a great beekeeper, and be able to teach what I have learned to my family members, so they can have the joy that I experience with the bees. 

This is why I have a very deep quest for knowledge regarding the bees.  I want to be able to take the best care of my apiary members that I possibly can.  For their sake mostly, and any bi-products of these girls are simply a bonus for me (and a good bonus at that).  My quest for knowledge does not end.  Great 2007.Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 01, 2007, 02:25:15 am
.
Cindy, you make good questions. It shows you basic knowledge and your basic aim.

Knowledge is like stars on the heaven.  First you find some stars and a mess.  When you know the basic, it is easy to set new stars of knowledge on ringht place.  Finaly you see clearly what are meaninfull to you and what just exist on sky.

Beekeeping knowledge is like a tool box. You choose the right alternative in different circumtances. If you have one alternative, it is the only what you may use. Professional beekeepers use "routine system".  As one professional said: "We look one hive on yard, look what we should do, and make same tricks to all. It is only work for me"
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on January 01, 2007, 02:41:30 am
Finsky, when I took the beginning level of beekeeping, I had an Asian instructor.  He was very good, but there was a difficult time for the first few weeks to understand his dialect.  But once understood, it was so easy to understand.  I think he may have had a hard time to understand us too, but he did the very best that he could.  It was an intense learning curve because of the accent of his nation.

I think that I probably drove this poor young man crazy because I asked so many questions, I asked so many that no others in our class (of 15) had to ask.  I probably did it all for them.  I am a thinker, and I think constantly about the bees, why they do this, they do that, what happens if they do this, or I do that.  It is a constant thinking process.  I even drive myself crazy.

That is what I did for the first year of my reading books after the beginning of course.  I would sit with a paper pad and pen, every time that I had a question, I would write it down.  Sometimes I would find answers for it, sometimes not.  If I did not find an answer it would stay on paper.  After about a year, I took all the questions that I did not find answers for and typed them all out and sent them by e-mail to a fellow who said he would answer my questions.  The questions I had had 104 questions typed out for him to answer.

I wrote in the e-mail to this man that probably by the time he had time to answer these questions, I may have had the answers.  I think that I must have scared this man to death with so MANY QUESTIONS that he never answered me back.  (Even though he said he would).  I was never annoyed about this, I just went on the thought that he got too busy, and that is 100% OK with me.  I know what it is like to be very very busy.  I still think that I freaked him out and it was plain and simply too many questions.  It still brings a smile to my face to see this man's face when he saw my 104 questions (or about that many, can't quite remember without going to the document to see).

Here I go again, I get very VERY long-winded.  My apology.  Off to celebrate 2007.  Great day. Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 01, 2007, 02:53:24 am
Now I start to drive with car to my summer cottage 100 miles. I cover my hives with earth construction textile. It is wind cover and agaist snow.

Exactly after 2 months I take them away. We have here the warmest December ever measured. No ice or snow. Temperature is near freezing point.  It is raining water.

I can se from traffic cameras what kind of weather it is near my summer cottage. Somethimes there is -10C when here in Capital water is raining.

I put one box hives inside the shelter.

http://alk.tiehallinto.fi/alk/english/frames/kelikamerat-frame.html

.

Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Michael Bush on January 01, 2007, 11:47:29 am
>Give them lots of foundation, BEFORE they get it into their heads to swarm.

More than that, get it into the BROOD NEST.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Brian D. Bray on January 01, 2007, 05:03:14 pm
Yes MB, that's what it takes.  Putting 2 frames of starter strips in the top 2 brood boxes lets the bees being to work the wax.  I do that when feeding in the spring.  4 new frames to work on, some pollen or pollen substitute, and a few gallons of simple syrup and the hive is off to a good start working comb and rearing brood.  I them put the first super on about a week later.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Kirk-o on January 01, 2007, 08:06:54 pm
I started useing the unlimited brood nest theory and I have nothing but success.I put the queen excluders in storeage
kirko
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on January 02, 2007, 01:14:51 am
kirko, that is great to hear, the more I hear about unlimited brood chambers, it makes sense, still investigating all aspects though, so much about queen excluder, no queen excluder, opinions, compile information, make own opinion.  Great day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Scott Derrick on January 02, 2007, 01:24:09 am
I've been reading this post trying to get a handle on the Unlimited Brood Chamber concept.

Finsky Said:

Quote

I do not use exluder even if queen goes to lay eggs to super.  When hone flow is strong bees store honey in brood area. I lift those frames up and give empty combs to brood area or foundations.
When honey flow ceases, I arrange honey combs and brood combs in order.

* Capped boxes to extraction
* Filled honey combs up,
* brood down and
* emty combs in the middle.
* mixed honey and brood combs to hive periferia that queen is not willing to lay eggs any more.



Is this the method that you use for The Unlimited Brood Chamber method? I just purchased 30 deeps from a local beekeeper that was going to all 8 frame equiptment and I want try and use at least 3 deeps per hive this year. I want to learn how the method works.

Can someone explain it a little more in detail on how this method is started and worked? I have 8 hives right now and want to take all of them as well as the ones I will add this year to the Unlimited Brood Chamber Method.

Thanks for the info on this subject and for your responses.

Scott
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 02, 2007, 03:49:50 am
I want try and use at least 3 deeps per hive this year. I want to learn how the method works.

Scott you surely live in south in warm area because there seems to be palms in Carolina, but never mind.

The aim is first raise bees so much as possible. You need good queens and that is basic.

But in my climate early summer is cold and nights are cold, queen tends to rise up to lay eggs in warm boxes. I have found that it goes naturally up but cold forces it. When I have now warmed bottom with heat cable, queen ascend to lowest deep lay.

When early summer starts, bees get honey and pollen  from fields and one deep is needed fo  food,. But even it does not fill, emerging new bees need more room. Everey week I add box or two. Otherwise they start to think swarming.

In this early start I keep entrance reducer on depending how much bees use to ventilate. What is the need.

When real honey flow starts, I need to open totally main entrance. The lowest brood box get cold and queen tend to raise upp. 
Soon lowest box have only pollen, old resting foragers and nectar ripening. In the middle of yield lowest box if a puffer where nectar is stored and pollen too. 

A good queen needs 2 boxes to lay. It automatically rises up. But even if it uses 4 th box, it is nothing. It is a good queen.  I drop brood frames up or down.  Bees keep brood area compact and queen will not lay here and there.

When two years ago it was the most heavy nectar flow, out tempperature was 30C , I kept all entrances open. The result was that queen rised to topmost box to lay in 7-box tower. It is nothing, because when I took 240 lbs capped honey away queen was again in lowest box. Hive was really full.

The most important is that when flow is heavy, hive have always room for brood and new nectar.   Never mind where queen is, if nectar is coming in and there is no swarming.

*********

In the fall I keep brood area compact. If I have put foundation in the middle of brood area, it is often full of honey.  During heavy flow the lovest box too is full of capped honey. But it is inside, not on fiels.

I do not know, how this works in warm climate because yield season is long and there are many cycles in yield flowers.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Michael Bush on January 02, 2007, 07:35:54 am
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm

This is the basics.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 02, 2007, 09:56:54 am
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm

This is the basics.


What Lusby says as advice is not good in cold weather like in spring. You cannot help bees by formulating brood are in new way. Brood are should be compact. If you force to enlarge area, bees destroy brood in periferia.

In early spring number of nurser bees is limiting factor.  When hive has enough nurser bees, heating/cold is limiting factor. Later the capacity of queen laying will apear.

.
For example if chalk brood kills 20% of brood, hive is able to enlarge after that when night are warm and disease disapear.

WHAT I MEAN: when you make unlimitd brood area, big brood area  will come true or not. You cannot force bees in anything. There are many factors if you get 2-box brood area, and that was it what you wanted. First of all: really good queen.

.

Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Cindi on January 02, 2007, 10:27:25 am
Brood area unlimited.  Probably the best idea.  Oh brother, I had a tiny little thorn stuck straight into my index finger and it makes typing with my left hand a little difficult.  (it actually hurts a bit), so my typing is a little slower today.  thank goodness my husband is a master at taking out slivers and thorns that I get.  Ooops, there I go again.

When I took a seminar regarding bees with another instructor who was not my intial beekeeping level 1 and II, Asian man, he said to restrict the queen to only one brood chamber using a queen excluder.  He said he gets about 200 pounds of honey per hive this way.  Maybe he does.  He said that he just moves brood up into the second or third box, always leaving the queen a few frames below to lay.  Now this may work or not.  But my opinion formed with that was that it was WAY TOO MUCH WORK.  Once the honey supers are on, I honestly do not think that it would be the easiest thing to do to go down to the bottom box and keep lifting brood frames out and up into other supers.  Doing things in an easier manner would certainly be better for me.  And unlimited space seems the right choice.

I presume the queen will go up or down. Our summers are very warm, nights are pretty warm too, so she probably would utilize the bottom chamber, there is a LONG season for the nectarflow.  Months.  Probably,  6 months or so, maybe longer by a bit.

I think that now brings us to a new topic:  Reversing chambers.  But I am going to start another post on this.  Great day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Scott Derrick on January 02, 2007, 11:50:16 am
OK..I hear you. Here is a senireo for everyone that I can learn off of. Lets say I have a hive that has two deeps. My goal is to go to three deeps.

I go to inspect the hive and I notice the bottom brood chamber has about 4 frames of brood in the center and the outside has honey and 1 and 10 are just being built out. The upper brood super has three frames of honey and nothing else.

How should I handle this?

This is how I would handle it. Please tell me if I am wrong. If I am wrong what sort of affect would it have on the hive?

I would place the third chamber on top and pull the honey from the second chamber to the third chamber. I would then take three frames of brood from the bottom chamber and place it into the middle of the second chamber. I would place three drawn frames into the bottom chamber.

My thought is that the honey stays in the box...the brood being moved upward helps to populate the second chamber and the queen is given room to lay more.

Thanks for all your responses.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 02, 2007, 12:30:48 pm

* I would then take three frames of brood from the bottom chamber and place it into the middle of the second chamber. * I would place three drawn frames into the bottom chamber.


when you add the third deep, reason is that hive is getting too much bees or honey and pollen is filling combs.

*** If it is cold in late spring, I put the whole third box lowest. - more room for bees...

*** If honey flow has started, I put third box topmost.
        - If there is too much honey in second box, I lift them up but in the middle of third box I move 3-4 brood frames.
           For honey they have 7-6 frames.
         - I don't touch into first box.
         - To second box I put 2-3 foundations between brood frames.
         - To third box I may put 2-3 foundations too.
         - To sides of second deep I put empty drawn combs.

REASON:  1) Around brood area I arrange more room for eggs.
              2) On sides empty room for pollen and nectar that bees feel that tey hace space
              3) Fillde frame up to periferia that bees need not handle honey any more.
              4) If there  is  old honey or winter sugar in frames, I put them between larva frames.
                  So bees unburden old pollen and honey and molbilize them. Brood will be in these combs later.

FOURTH BOX:

*** Summer is going on, and bees are more and let's hope, honey is coming in.
*** Next week when you add third box, you need to give more room.
*** If third box is full of brood, reverse the second and third box . Bees lift honey to fourth box from the area of brood.

*** This is time when yout ought to do swarming inspections.  During this job you may arrange frames, you may add foundations and keep free space for brood and honey. The lowest box is mostly for pollen.

**** !!! When you add emty super combs add them allways just over the brood area. Never mind if queen goes there and lay. When brood is capped you lift frames top and give new empty combs over brood area.

*** When you inspect for swarming, you may need fourth deep where you lift all food combs from sedonf and third box.

Some hive may gather 1,5 box pollen. That is valuable material and just arrange more room for laying. Mad pollen gatherers are often good brood raisers.

.


Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Kathyp on January 02, 2007, 01:56:09 pm
maybe i'm making this to complicated.  here is what i get from this conversation.

with 2 deeps overwintered; early in spring i should pull a couple of  frames from the brood box, replace them with empty frames, feed, add 3rd box shortly after, build up hive, add honey supers?? did i get it?
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 02, 2007, 02:03:13 pm
maybe i'm making this to complicated.  here is what i get from this conversation.

with 2 deeps overwintered; early in spring i should pull a couple of  frames from the brood box, replace them with empty frames, feed, add 3rd box shortly after, build up hive, add honey supers?? did i get it?

But I don't understad why? Unlimited brood are is not a method. It is how get honey normally away without exluder. Hive need not excluder.

What about then when brood  and honey is mixed in same frame  .... Some tricks when doing hive nursing for another reasons.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Kathyp on January 02, 2007, 02:31:02 pm
i'm just trying to get the most growth and most honey from my hive.  i'd like to avoid swarming, but my primary goal is to build my hive as quickly and naturally as i can.  i had thought that leaving the brood chamber alone and adding supers would be best.  now it appears that that is not what most do.  in a wild hive, the "brood chamber" would not be disturbed?  the hive would build around it?  when they ran out of building room they swarm. 

so, now i'm a little confused :-)
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 02, 2007, 03:08:44 pm
i'm just trying to get the most growth and most honey from my hive. 

 i'd like to avoid swarming, but my primary goal is to build my hive as quickly and naturally as i can. 


 
Quote
in a wild hive, the "brood chamber" would not be disturbed? 

Beekeeping's the best step forward was a movable frame. With it you may look into hive and arrange combs, change queen, reed bee stock , stop swarming and what ever.

Beekeeping is far from natural and the best what you may do is disturbe brood area and learn to understand what is happening in the hive during the year.

To nurse bees is compicated: watch diseases, signs of swarming, when to enlarge, when to extract....



.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Scott Derrick on January 02, 2007, 04:43:43 pm
Notice bolded text:

Quote

when you add the third deep, reason is that hive is getting too much bees or honey and pollen is filling combs.

*** If honey flow has started, I put third box topmost.
        - If there is too much honey in second box, I lift them up but in the middle of third box I move 3-4 brood frames.
           For honey they have 7-6 frames.
        - I don't touch into first box.
         - To second box I put 2-3 foundations between brood frames.
         - To third box I may put 2-3 foundations too.
         - To sides of second deep I put empty drawn combs.

REASON:  1) Around brood area I arrange more room for eggs.
              2) On sides empty room for pollen and nectar that bees feel that tey hace space
              3) Fillde frame up to periferia that bees need not handle honey any more.
              4) If there  is  old honey or winter sugar in frames, I put them between larva frames.
                  So bees unburden old pollen and honey and molbilize them. Brood will be in these combs later.

FOURTH BOX:

*** Summer is going on, and bees are more and let's hope, honey is coming in.
*** Next week when you add third box, you need to give more room.
*** If third box is full of brood, reverse the second and third box . Bees lift honey to fourth box from the area of brood.

*** This is time when yout ought to do swarming inspections.  During this job you may arrange frames, you may add foundations and keep free space for brood and honey. The lowest box is mostly for pollen.

**** !!! When you add emty super combs add them allways just over the brood area. Never mind if queen goes there and lay. When brood is capped you lift frames top and give new empty combs over brood area.

*** When you inspect for swarming, you may need fourth deep where you lift all food combs from sedonf and third box.

Some hive may gather 1,5 box pollen. That is valuable material and just arrange more room for laying. Mad pollen gatherers are often good brood raisers.


So Finsky are you saying that you never disturb the bottom brood chamber?
The Only movement of brood that you do is from the second chamber to the third...?
Did you mean when you add the fourth box or should the title of this section be "Third Box"?

You only move the brood around / above the bottom chamber?

Please clarify. 

Scott
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 02, 2007, 05:20:03 pm
Notice bolded text:


]So Finsky are you saying that you never disturb the bottom brood chamber?


I do but very seldom.

Quote
The Only movement of brood that you do is from the second chamber to the third...?

No. That help at all to avoid excluder.  If frames are mostly full of honey, I lift them to topmost, which means to fourth or sixth, out of brood area. Bees fill emerged cells with nectar.


Quote
Did you mean when you add the fourth box or should the title of this section be "Third Box"?

When you have 3 or four box , it is same where are brood. The most important is to avoid swarming. When I put hives in nectar fields there should be 6-7 boxes. I put two weak hives together to get a big hive.

The result is that queen has 3 deep, topmost are capped honey frames and obove brood area tere are free combs for nectar.  When queen has those three deeps, she has no need to rise higher.

If frame has both brood and honey and I want to extract honey I put frames up to the tower or beside the wall.  So I isolate a frame that it do not invent queen to lay any more.

Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Kirk-o on January 02, 2007, 07:54:13 pm
You know that is the fun part about Beekeeping is reading all this stuff then going out and doing what works for YOU
good luck
kirko
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Michael Bush on January 02, 2007, 09:54:38 pm
What you can do to expand the brood nest depends on the number of bees and the weather.  You don't wan to spread out the brood nest too far when the nights are cold and the cluster is small.  But putting empty frames (one at a time) in the brood nest when it's warmer to head off swarming has worked well for me.

The first step to an unlimited brood nest is to put the excluders in the garage for those rare occasions when they are useful for something.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Scott Derrick on January 02, 2007, 11:19:02 pm
I have not used excluders because I have heard that they don't help the hive to grow or to produce honey. I have heard them called honey excluder. I decided not to deal with them. One thing that was frustrating to me this year was that I had two deep and one medium hives setups and the queens was going up into all three and laying. When I wanted to take honey off there was a bunch of brood in the honey super. If I would have known what I know now I would have added a super and pulled those frames up to the super above and added empty frames to the super below.

I won't pretend that I have my head around the unlimited brood chamber method yet but I think I am getting the idea. What I am hearing is to leave the bottom chamber alone, move honey to the top most super and brood/honey frames one super above to the outer most positions then add empty frames for queen to lay in. 

I hope I have the gist of it.

Finsky...most of the weather that we have here in South Carolina is warm. We hardly ever have snow but we do have about 8 to 10 day when the temperature goes below freezing. I don't mess with the bees then. All I do is make sure they have stores about every two weeks. If the weather becomes rainy and cold for three of four days straight I check sooner.

In the summer it is hot and humid. Most day in the heart of summer will be in the upper 90's with 80 to 90% humidity. Enough heat to make you sweat through you bee suit. I have literally soaked through a suit doing removals on extreme hot days.

I have most of my hives in the deep woods. A decision that I feel was a mistake. I have a real problem with hive beetles. I need to get them out of the wood and into a wood line. I understand that direct sunlight should take care of most of my problem.

All the best.

Scott


Thanks
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 03, 2007, 12:59:50 am
I have not used excluders because I have heard that they don't help the hive to grow or to produce honey.

Exluders are use in many ways. I have not revealed very well how professionals do it.

One way is keep brooding free whole summer and for final harvest you ut exluder and separate brood and honey. I have tried it but the brood area for winter has become too small because weathers are here cold in August.

I am aware that in warm regions things are like we have in the midd summer, but we are talking from Jamaica to Alaska.

BUT still you have winter losses even you do not have winter and your queen escape to lay to super  because it has too cold downstairs

Something mysterious in southern beekeeping :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Michael Bush on January 03, 2007, 07:23:33 am
It is a big advantage when doing an unlimted brood nest (no excluder version) to have all the same sized boxes.  When you find brood you move it down.  If you use no chemicals you can harvest any frame of honey from anywhere, so you can just pull some honey out of the lower boxes and swap it for the brood.

Having different sized boxes is a disadvantage.

Another way to keep the queen out of the supers is to use 7/11 foundation from Walter T. Kelley.  This is in between drone and worker size and the queen doesn't like to lay in it.
Title: Re: Unlimited brood chamber
Post by: Finsky on January 03, 2007, 07:49:55 am
It is a big advantage when doing an unlimted brood nest (no excluder version) to have all the same sized boxes. 

It is but but quite small compared to light medium boxes.  Medium combs are nice to extract too.

Rearrange of combs is needed quite seldom.  In south swarming time is long and it needs plenty og checking. Our swarming period is only 1 month long.