Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: yoderski on May 05, 2007, 09:35:16 am

Title: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: yoderski on May 05, 2007, 09:35:16 am
No that is not the name of a new movie, but it describes my situation here.  It is slightly complicated, but here goes.  I had one hive of two to make it through the winter, and it was going full bore this spring.  In the meantime, I bought another hive, and nuc, as well as captured 2 swarms, so I am up to 5 now.  The swarms at 17 days post capture showed no sign of eggs or brood so when I went looking in my other hives for brood, I found evidence of open queen cells in each of the other hives, and not a lot of brood anywhere. So apparently all had swarmed.   One hive had an unopened queen cell.  However, plenty of bees were found.  And then to top it off, I found my queen in the overwintered hive dead under a frame that same day.  So basically, 5 hives with no evidence of a healthy queen.  So I was able to get 2 queens from a local beekeeper, and also got 4 frames of brood, to requeen my two biggest hives.  That has hopefully corrected that problem.  Now I have 2 queens coming from Rossman Apiaries which should be here next week, which I intend to put in the swarms.  However, I have no brood to put in those swarms.  (I am assuming the hatching queen in the other hive will take care of that one)  The question is, can I just put a queen in the two swarms, without any brood comb?  Will she just pick up and go to work when she gets out of the cage?  Both swarms are working like mad--they have drawn out comb beautifully and put up a lot of honey thus far, just no queen.  My thought on the missing queens--I suspect the maiden voyage of the new queens is a perilous one around here--I have an active purple martin colony of 60+ birds, and they may have trouble making it back from their honeymoon!
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: asprince on May 05, 2007, 10:03:43 am
I am not yet qualified to answer your questions, but I do have a question for you. Do Martins eat honey bees? I was thinking about putting up some Martin houses. I have enough issues with my bees without bringing on another. Good luck with your hives, you will get tons of good advice here. Steve
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: Cindi on May 05, 2007, 10:14:24 am
Yonderski, I don't see why you would need to put in frames of brood with the swarms.  The queen will be released and immediately begin to lay eggs.  This will keep the bees busy.  I would think that surely things would be OK.  Good luck, hope all goes well, great life, great health and a beautiful day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: Michael Bush on May 05, 2007, 10:19:47 am
>The question is, can I just put a queen in the two swarms, without any brood comb? 

You do it with packages all the time.

You are assuming they are all queenless.  In my experience they often appear to be (no brood or eggs) but actually have a virgin queen.  In the time it takes them to rear an emergency queen all the brood will have emerged.  In good weather it takes 14 days from emergence to seeing eggs.  In bad weather it could take more.  If she's not laying in 24 days or so, then you either have a queen who can't mate or no queen.

If you have no young brood (young enough to make a queen) then it is a dilemma.  Normally I'd put a frame of eggs and open brood in any hive that is suspected as queenless for insurance.  If there's a virgin running around in there you won't waste your queens trying to requeen, and if there isn't you won't risk them dwindling and turning into laying workers.
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: yoderski on May 05, 2007, 04:47:41 pm
Purple martins in general do not eat bees.  That is from my experience with having both over the past couple of years.  However, I was speculating that perhaps the queen being a little larger might be a tempting target for them....However, that is all speculation, and I suspect there are other causes for my problem.  If Michael Bush is right, maybe I should wait a little longer.  Particularly the one swarm is very contented, and working like there is no tomorrow--perhaps there is a virgin queen in there that needs to get cranked up yet.  Particularly if they raised it from the brood I put in there to begin with....
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: papabear on May 06, 2007, 11:11:53 am
I might be wrong but don't swarms always make new queens shortly after finding a new home because they swarm with an old or failing queen? I think it is just a virgin queen maybe just wait like M. Bush said. :-D
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: Shizzell on May 07, 2007, 01:53:39 pm
Papabear, they don't always create new queens. 1st. Swarms don't swarm because of failing/old queens. You would get an opposite behavior, they would NOT swarm. 2nd. How would the bees create a new queen if they have a failing queen? You need eggs to create a queen.

About the purple martins. 1st. Queens rarely leave/go outside the hive (besides swarm + mating) and on that rare occasion, I doubt a martin is just waiting. (You never know though) 2nd. Purple martins usually feast on smaller insects such as mosquitoes (Martins eat more mosquitoes than bats).

Jake
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: Brian D. Bray on May 07, 2007, 06:41:07 pm
>>(Martins eat more mosquitoes than bats).

To what ratio?  I think a bat would be a real mouthful for a Purple Martin.  LOL 
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: yoderski on May 11, 2007, 09:49:31 am
Update is in order.  Michael was right as usual.  I checked 2 of the hives that were supposedly queenless, because so far my queens from Rossman haven't showed up, and surprise--now lots of eggs and larvae now. My two local new queens seem to be released ok. So now I am getting two more queens that I suppose I don't really need.  Anyone need one here in this area?  I think it goes to show don't give up on them too early.. 
Title: Re: Queenless in Alabama
Post by: Understudy on May 11, 2007, 10:06:11 am
I might be wrong but don't swarms always make new queens shortly after finding a new home because they swarm with an old or failing queen? I think it is just a virgin queen maybe just wait like M. Bush said. :-D

Not exactly. When a swarm leaves they take the old queen with them. They will only replace her if there is an issue. If she is healthy and laying well. They will not replace her. If she doesn't do well after the trip they will use the eggs whe lays to make a new queen.

The reason a swarm leaves with the old queen is because they are already practiced at having a good hive. So the bees already know how to work on establishing a good home.

Sincerely,
Brendhan