Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Boris on November 07, 2006, 03:27:35 pm
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The number of official Russian queen breeders is limited; it is less than 10. The number of Russian bee colonies in the US is about several hundred thousand. Unfortunately, there is no official data about their total population. Currently, I am trying to obtain more accurate information. I would be happy to receive further information (with relevant source citations) regarding the presence of Russian bee colonies in America (US, Canada).
In addition, I would be happy to receive and publish on my web site comments from beekeepers who have worked with Russian bees.
Click here for more details:
http://www.beebehavior.com/russian_bees.php
Boris
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I got Russian bees last year. They came from CA, but that's all I know. Since this is my first year, I have nothing to compare them too. This was the first time the bee place I use here in Oregon, has ordered Russians.
I got one 3lb package mid April '06. by mid summer, they had filled 2 deeps with brood, pollen, and honey. by the end of the summer, they had almost filled a 3rd deep and had given me 2 full shallows of honey. At one point it appears I had more than one queen wandering around in there.
Until robbing started in late summer, I worked them in shorts and tshirt with gloves. I was stung only when I foolishly place the inner cover on the ground near my feet, and had bees get up my pants. I have had them go up a loose sweatshirt sleeve and not been stung. Even when working them during robbing, or when I have taken the honey, I have only had to walk away from the hive a couple of times.
I used Apiguard to treat for mites. I found very few on the bottom board during treatment. they are very diligent about keeping the hive clean.
I don't know how this compares to others experiences, but for a first time beekeeper I was pleasantly surprised at how easy these bees have been to live with.
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Hello Kathyp,
May I post your info to my web site. Also I would like to know the name of your bee supplier and your short description of this supplier (quality of bees, packaging and so on).
Thank you.
Boris
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I have wondered how russian bees tolerate heat. It gets over 100 degrees every summer where I live, sometimes for weeks at a time. How do they cope with that level of heat?
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It's fine with me if you use the info :)
I got them through Ruhl Bee Supply in Clackamas Oregon. I do not know who they ordered from except that they are in CA. I can probably find out next week if you want more info. The bees arrived in great condition. I had been told to expect some dead bees in the package. I found very few. From their performance, I'd say I got a pretty healthy bunch!
Heat: we had a good number of days over 100 this year. It started in May, then got cold again. By the end of June and for the rest of the summer, we were over 90 many days. It was an unusually hot, dry summer. The bees did not seem to have a problem with the heat.....I wonder how they will do with all this rain!
I'll put in a plug for Ruhl Bee Supply. They are really great. They hold classes for new beekeepers, have good supplies at a good price, and are very helpful. Beekeeping is a family business and they really know their stuff.
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"I can probably find out next week if you want more info."
Yes, please. Kathyp, now you can review your info here:
http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeepers_comments.php
Contact info is optional.
Boris
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I plan on obtaining some Russian stock this coming spring. I figure to shop locally so will be getting my from Wildnerness Apiaries out of Port Angeles, WA. They specialize in Russian and SMR stock.
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I just attended a Bee Field Day here in Baton Rouge this past weekend. One of the main points was that the Russian bees have reduced Varroa Mite counts and they had plenty of graphs supporting this claim. Here are some links if you want to find out more info from the presenters. Maybe you could request their slide decks as well. Phone and address in last link.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=14203
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?accn_no=407273
http://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=64-13-30-00
There are 2 or 3 individuals that sell Russian Queens. I'll get the ok to publish there names if anyone is interested.
Keith
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I have no Russian bees, but have heard that they can handle varroa, among other things. And I do mean, Russian bees!
Now, why - is beyond me - are you people talking about those bees that came originally from Russia and have now been propagated mainly in Louisiana, California, Texas (some also in Ontario) - mainly southern states with no particular cold to speak off, much less any snow ?
The bee-pasture in those places is probably - year round affair? All this just don't make much sense to me?!
Russians are Russians! Used to snow and cold, of which people in those places have no clue, much less any experience!?
They, bees, had worked different flowers even, and one can go on and on. . . .
What is there to test?
They know in Russia, for decades, that those bees can and do, coexist with varroa?! The Primorski region is from where the varroa has spread to Europe in the first place?
Now, to propagate such a bee, the way has been done, is like taking an Eskimo and let him loose in Texas and expect to watch him how he builds himself an igloo? And when that done - goes out and survive - to raise a family even????
Haven't you Americans learned nothing, prom the past mistakes? Do you enjoy that much - shooting yourself in the foot?
No, you still like to wander the globe, grab things that tickle your fancy, or you think can make you a buck. Bring it home and then work it to death - trying to make it your own!?
Take this bees to Alaska! Than do your tests and see for yourself, what those bees can do and what they can't?
The way it is being done now is IMO pointless to the point of being fullish...
No hard feelings?! Just my two cents. . . .
Regards,
Frank - Trot
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;)Hmmm,
Try nothing and definitely fail or try something and possibly succeed?
This can be a tough decision to make sometimes.
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I'm a newbee and no nothing, so I speak from utter ignorance. Also, before Tuesday's election I would have been too disillusioned with the USA to bother responding to your post, but today, here's what I have to say:
1.The US has become the greatest country in the world due to our willingness to try new things. We take in people from every inch of the globe, why not bees? What we have learned is that ignoring genetics and having an adventerous bent gets you just about everywhere you want to go.
2.Based on genetics, I probably ought to be about 1,000 miles North, but I've adapted just fine.
3. Italian bees live in Finland (accorinding to Finsky) so maybe Russian bees can live in the lower 48.
No hard feelings (seriously). Canada is a great place based upon my one visit there. But your post accentuates the negative a little too much.
ndvan
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You might try contacting Bjorn Apiaries in PA. He has been working with russians for a while now and also seems to be doing creditable research into their resistance to mites, wintering issues, etc.
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I agree with Zoot about Bjorn Apiaries in PA. I got one of his Russian queens this year to test out. I am very impressed with her performance and plan to order several more from him next year. Hope that helps you make up your mind. -Danno
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Don't get sore now, gentlemen! This was not meant to be seen as some kind of anti-American or anti-anything and I can't see why it would be trust in to the outcome of the last elections...
Point is, one can not just take some animal/bug and transplant it to totally different environment and expect it to perform to their wishes.
It is well known what happened in Brazil and Mr. Kerr never once said that he was sorry?
It is well known fact that we have on this earth different races of bees which belong to their respective localities or there about. That chain of events was decided through 100 million years of evolution and not by human preference of some nice golden colour in their bees, etc...
Now, I am not an highly educated man, and you guys can run circles around me if you so wish and that too, is fine by me.
Point that I am trying to make is that if Russian bees are not performing as expected - it is not their fault!
I read a lot, here in elsewhere and a lot of beeks are disappointed and even blame some of those who provided them with such bees.
Italian bees are here in Canada and yes, in Finland. Carnica too, is not found only in Slovenia, (Carniola!)
One thing is surely clear to all? They did not get to those parts of the globe on their own and they only perform best in regions where they originate from.
And yes, many do great work with different bees and that is not my concern. We all know why some of this work is being/was done?!
I too have Italian bees and I know that my strain would not be happy at all if dropped in the middle of Mediterranean...
Many years ago I had preached to fellow beekeepers at our monthly meetings that we should become self sufficient! Whole Canada depended on bees from Alabama, Georgia, Australia, New Zealand...
Finally, when border was closed for importation of bees - this dependency quickly dissipated... Now bees can even be bought in our parts of the world?! ( But die-hards still cry to open the boarder...)
My bees have never in years been further than where they can fly! And yes - they are Italian, (once upon a time) and I have yet to see varroa on them. Perhaps there are varroa in the hives - but I have yet to see one...
Now, don't nobody get me wrong now? I'm not bragging, but am rather thanking Lord tha to this day have not seen one. Ofcourse that can easyly change in a hurry, come next spring...
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I am not sore at all. However, your post did have an Anti-American slant to it. The reason I mentioned the elections is that, for the last five years, I have had a bit of an anti US government feeling. Mark Twain once said something to the effect "Love your country always, love your government when it deserves it." I do not want to start a political debate on this site. I just had some of my faith restored in the voters of this country that makes me feel better about being an American. Your post happened to appear when I was feeling extra-patriotic, that's all.
As to the substance of your post, its my understanding that none of the honeybees kept in North or South America are native. It woud seem to me that Russian bees ought to work in the cooler parts of this continent, at least.
Thanks, ndvan
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Bees, like people, can adjust to climatic conditions fairly well. A hive of bees will adjust their enviormental clock to their new location within a couple of years. New swarms will have a better chance of survival in the new climate with each occurance.
Buying bees from Florida for use in North Dakota might be a little risky the first year but if they survive they become alcimated within a few years, becoming cold weather bees verses warm weather bees.
The most interesting aspect of Russians bees is not that they are generally cold weather bees but that they are genetically varroa resistant. It is a trait that can and should be selected towards regardless of the weather conditions in any area.
If you want to buy bees that will survive in your area buy bees from you area or from an area as close to you climatic conditions as possible.
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Here is a Dutch 3- year reseach on Russian bee http://www.mamamoer.nl/ddb/blz/rapportprimoengels2002.pdf
Russian bees are not so good are they are said.
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Finski,
Thank you for your reply, but your link (data) is too old.
Boris
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Finski,
Thank you for your reply, but your link (data) is too old.
Boris
You mean that Russian bee has been developed during 3-4 year better?
A year ago Zew Zeland beekeeper went to Germany to search what kind of properties Germans have developed against varroa. He wrote that German have got varroa tolerant stock from Carniola bee which are at least as good as Russian. Russian has bad habits which Carniolan does not have. So New Zelander moved to them that Carniolan semen in orger to get varroa resistant bees in their country. They have not experience about Carniolan and the most frightful habit is tendency of swarming.
New Zeland does not want semen from USA because thay does want not a sigle gene from Africanized bees. It seems that on Arizona area they nurse calm africanized stock without varroa cure.
I have read writings of Russian bee owners and varroa kill hives if beepeeker do not cure hives.
I have no idea to try Russians. I handle mites with oxalic adid and I am more than satisfied with it. My aim is to get huge honey yields and not fight agains mites.
I have 30 miles to Russian border. I hope that they drones do not come to my bee yards.
.
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I looked closer what is happening in varroa resistant bee breedind in NZ but I found only 4 year old plans.
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Here is a Dutch 3- year reseach on Russian bee http://www.mamamoer.nl/ddb/blz/rapportprimoengels2002.pdf
Russian bees are not so good they are said.
It's been three years and were still not climatically conditioned to you yet Finsky - Evolution is a slow thing. Give it time! :-P
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It's been three years and were still not climatically conditioned to you yet Finsky - Evolution is a slow thing. Give it time! :-P
Yes, I have studied biology and genetics in University. I cannot give time because I have not such a mandate.
But what do you mean with still not climatically conditioned to you ?
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Finsky,
When you (or some one) hear information that in Germany or Denmark, or even in northern states of USA the americanized Russian bees have shown bad results, you should understand at least four moments:
1.The selection was made for the specific future inhabitancy of bees - southern states of USA, but not for the Europe.
2. The result of selection is not the only one breed of Russian bees, but THREE groups with SIX lines in each of group. Thus, now there are 18 official lines of Russian bees in the USA. And, when someone speak about Russian bees, he should be more specific. For example, GROUP "B" - LIGHT BLUE plus line color: Light Blue+Blue or Light Blue+Red and so on.
The final selection of several lines of Russian bees (by the principle "Best of the best” ) will be made by the end of 2007 ONLY.
3. Mites are different in the different areas of bees dwelling.
4. Very often people refer to the old foreign articles , that contain materials of research prior to the final selection of the Russian bees.
Sorry for my English language.
Boris
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Finsky:
My statement is American humor - it means your writing and beekeeping style is an aquired Taste. You look at beekeeping from a profit level because of your beeyard size and business mandates. Many, if not most of the beekeepers here have very few hives and they don't squeeze their bees for any nectar they have left in their crops. They tend to observe, pollinate and enjoy the beauty of their colonies.
That does not mean that in a business oriented yard that different approaches are necessary, but not everyone keeps bees the same - imagine if you lived in a climate where you had 12 months a year of bees flying, wouldn't your operation be different?
My father had a many good sayings, one was: "Life is like a diaper... some times you get pee, some times you get poop - you hope for pee!" Beekeeping is like that, you do what you can, the best way you can do it - add in all the unique factors that surround you and hope for the best. Sometimes you just have to see how things work out and learn from your mistakes.
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I'm with you John; In the diaper of life pee is definately easier to clean up after.
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Finsky:
My statement is American humor - it means your writing and beekeeping style is an aquired Taste.
I suspected that.
I have not seen the whole Russian bee.
I put the link where reseach was done in Holland.
When Boris teached me Duck to swim, I may tell that I understand globe sites and beekeeping quite well.
I have 20 hives. I am hobbiest. However I like good information. To do first and explane later is very common style.
But I am not going to steal you dreams, do as you like :mrgreen:
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Finsky:
Many, if not most of the beekeepers here have very few hives and they don't squeeze their bees for any nectar they have left in their crops. They tend to observe, pollinate and enjoy the beauty of their colonies.
Oh boy! What is the valua of knowledge and skill if it is same to beginner what he does? I too observe and enjoy the beaty of colonies and the most I am proud of that I am good in beekeeping.
What is the picture of US hobbyist:
* feed syrup in summer when bees should gather nectar
* feed dry sugar in winter when bees should be in winter rest
* give water in winter when they need not to drink
* not take honey off because bees need it in winter but not get it enough
* play all the time with varroa even if it is the smallest nuisance in beekeeping.
* formulate all beekeeping, hive constructions, bee breeding, races according varroa.
I get surplus honey from hives on average 160 lbs per hive. Surely it is wrong, but how? When I started 45 years ago, my nabour beekeepers got about 30 lbs honey per hive and they were proud of that. But hives were in those days really small. They were size of one langstroth box.
Yes, I have nursed aquarium fishes too and I have got even cups from cardinale terta. Neontetra is very easy and nice to propagate.
They need feeding twice a day with living protein. But however aquarium fishes are so easy to learn that they are not interesting after all.
Bees are difficult to nurse. It took me many years before I could extract honey from my hives.
And now, after all these years I should teach to American hobbiest HOW NOT to get honey from hives. Human mind is very fascinated by humbug. It is not my job to teach it. People have enough skill to it without teaching.
I have propagated this fish and I am proud of it:
(http://www.jjphoto.dk/fish_archive/aquarium/paracheirodon_axelrodi_x.jpg)
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"What is the picture of US hobbyist:
* feed syrup in summer when bees should gather nectar
* feed dry sugar in winter when bees should be in winter rest
* give water in winter when they need not to drink
* not take honey off because bees need it in winter but not get it enough
* play all the time with varroa even if it is the smallest nuisance in beekeeping.
* formulate all beekeeping, hive constructions, bee breeding, races according varroa."
Finsky,
I personally not to do this. And I am interesting to read your
beekeeping experience. Do you have your personal web-site?
Thank you.
Boris
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Finsky,
Do you have your personal web-site?
No, I have not
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Finsky:
I have propagated this fish and I am proud of it:
(http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/3951/finbeeboyoc1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Congratulations. I noticed the fish has your eyes and there is something else I can not quite see. In the US we give out cigars on happy occasions. Now... go forth and multiply :-P
Just kidding you Finsky, I'm having some fun is all - this post has been long and a little heated, you need not be defensive. Your ways work very good and you get great yields from short seasons.
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I noticed the fish has your eyes and there is something else I can not quite see.
It is possible. We had on sunday father's day in Finland. My boy gived to me as present painkiller Burana and then I took vodka later. No wonder that mys eyes shine like tedras'.
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Finsky,
Never heard of Burana (is is a homeopathic medicine?) but you should try chasing a percocet pill with a glass of beer. I had surgey on my knee the other day and did this without thinking...thought I was going to die for about 15 minutes, then it eased off into a truly unique high that I probably won't try to repeat ever again.
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I saw a recipe for a Goldschlaauger and Percocet Jelloshot one time - thought it an interesting combo :roll:
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Let's talk about topic - Russian bees in the US.
Who else can provide the real comments about Russian bees in the US?
Click here to see some comments:
http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeepers_comments.php
Thank you.
Boris
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Boris, if you want to talk about the TOPIC so bad, at least include your LOCATION in your PROFILE - I don't think that is too much to ask.
THANK YOU
ADMIN.
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Boris,
I made an earlier reference to Bjorn Apiaries. It's run by a gentleman named Mike Thomas and his girlfirend Ida. He has posted some very scholarly data on his russians. I used to have a link but deleted it a while back. When I was first interested in the topic I found his info to be extremely interesting. I wouldn't hesitate to buy russians from him if I wanted them.
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Bad Beemaster, My bee hive location was posted here:
http://www.beebehavior.com/live_camera_winter.php
P.S. Finsky, if you do not have your own experience with Russian bees - please do not send any junk to this topic.
Boris
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P.S. Finsky, if you do not have your own experience with Russian bees - please do not send any junk to this topic.
Have I?
I have education of biolocical researher. But I like to cover stupid things soften with humour. Why other beekeepers may write here what ever b*.*t and I write junk.
I am capable to read biological scientific text more than many here. Why I would send junk? Is this free forum or not?
I am just delivering information on Russian bee that it is not so fine as it is wanted. That is wrong I know that but..... :mrgreen: I have education of biological researher.
You see, I am good in English humour but I cannot stand American humour.
Boris: Get rif off soon those Russians! Get yield, make money!
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About one beekeepers' mistake
I serious opinion is that beekeepers give too much weight on Varroa. Many arrange whole system race ( hive construction, style of life ) around varroa even if it is not necessary. It is surely very bad needed that beekeepers develop bee stocks which have better resistance against varroa and other diseases. To me chalk brood is bad and I have started to breed resistancy against that. Varroa is under control.
Varroa is really my friend. It killed bad German black bees from our country and after that beeping has bee very amusing. Inseminated queens have make another amusement into beekeeping.
When we look for mite resistant bee stock they are:
1) Africanized and their take stock in USA
2) Russian bee
3) Carniolan bee stocks in Europe as good as Russian against varroa
4) Elgon bee
The bad thing is that it is difficult to keep your stock clean when you have other beekeepers near. I have had some years Elgons, but when they cross with Italian they are not nice to handle. This year I have got more stings than during my earlier 15 years altogether. I killed my first hive this year because it gave 200 stings during 3 days and most in face.
My opinion is that when bee stock have selected according pleasant features, it is unnatural when you get a stock which does not swarm or not fight for it's hive. Italian and Elgon are such when they are pure. I think that they have some anomalies in their genes when they do not act naturally.
When two very different stocks come together they genome will be healed. They begin to swarm and attach on disturbers. Then they have natural instincts. That happened to me.
But what is the value of these breeding? I have got in my yard genes which help against chalk brood and hives forage pollen better than in the stock of my neighbor.
My neighbor beekeeper get better yields, his hives are calm, they do no swarm and so on. I have opportunity to change my whole yard to that stock as I have had. But I am not satisfied on that Italian stock. I try better.
But as I said. Varroa is not problem to me at all. I pay no attention to that creature. I just kill it and do not calculate how much I got. It works.
To day I have 6 bee races or strains. My opinion is that it is same what they are if hives are big, calm and healthy. They honey yield depend on pastures what I pick in the south east corner of our country.
If woods and meadow are full of nectar even 3 frame mating nucs forage honey which I am obliged to extract. But if landscape is short of nectar, it is same how good hives you put there. It happens nothing.
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Hey Boris:
I didn't realize I needed to surf the entire Internet to fine locations of members when they could simple enter them in their profile. Forgive me my ignorance.
I hate to be the THUMBSCREWS around here (but frankly it is a necessary, albeit sometimes thankless and misunderstood job) that said, sorry if you find anything I say or Finsky tries to educate us with below your own visionary prospectives, but if you don't like it when a man tries his best to either help or debate you on a topic in a healthy and respectful way - please don't hesitate to take up residence else where.
Or, as my Father would probably put it "Don't let the forum door hit you in the butt on the way out!"
Enjoy the forums, but if you can't, please EXIT STAGE LEFT!
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Finsky:
I too enjoy British/English Humor, some funny Irish stuff too :) American comedy (except for some very clever stand-up comedians is pretty lame, same weak formula for most plots and rolled out to quickly to have any deep thought.
I think America has good Crime/Courtroom/Doctor/Horror and Sci-Fi shows like CSI, Law and Order and House/ER , Jericho and Heroes (new this season, but interesting) - I wonder if you ever seen any of these Dramas???
Sorry Boris (don't want to skid off topic) :-*
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I like Amerikans when they ride with horse and shut with pistols and rifles. An they hit! Clint Eastwood is my hero ( and not to mention 7 children with different 5 women )
http://www.ascap.com/eventsawards/awards/oscar/2005/images/ClintEastwood.jpg
But I wonder why Amerikans do not hit nowadays when they shoot with machine guns in the middle of city. And their bullet case lasts and lasts however they shoot with series fire. When I was in Army, they said that it takes a couple of seconds when kalashnikov will be empty with series fire.
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Clint Eastwood is my hero ( and not to mention 7 children with different 5 women )
Finsky.. has any one told you that your picture looks very much like a young Clint Eastwood?
*****
I too enjoy Finsky's posts.. he is a straight shooter and tells it like it is.
I have also visiited Boris's site and find his experiments interesting.
I've started to read "Better Queens by Jay Smith".. his insight to beekeepers was.. ask a dozen beekeepers a question.. and you'll get 12 different answers.. better to ask the bee's themselves.
To argue is human nature.. to be civil while doing so is an art sometimes lost.
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But I wonder why Amerikans do not hit nowadays when they shoot with machine guns in the middle of city.
because when you go full auto, you shoot birds :-) they just need to turn the camera toward the sky.
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Finsky,
If you were to peruse a number of American web forums on multiple topics you'd start to understand that there's a tendancy to be a little, shall we say, UPTIGHT on our part. Don't take it seriously. Personally, I think it's due to the insane automobile traffic conditions here.....
Thanks for all of your input here. Your posts are invariably interesting.
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But I wonder why Amerikans do not hit nowadays when they shoot with machine guns in the middle of city. And their bullet case lasts and lasts however they shoot with series fire. When I was in Army, they said that it takes a couple of seconds when kalashnikov will be empty with series fire.
Don't you just love it when the machinegunners are behind something and going full auto on the lone gunman in the open and can't seem to hit him? But the lone gunman drops one of the bad guys with a single shot.
Opps..... Sorry Boris.
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Clint Eastwood is my hero ( and not to mention 7 children with different 5 women )
hehe, you make Clint sound like a gyps to me, except for the children part..not 7, but 17 :shock:
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Finsky wrote>>I wonder why Amerikans do not hit nowadays when they shoot with machine guns in the middle of city. And their bullet case lasts and lasts however they shoot with series fire. When I was in Army, they said that it takes a couple of seconds when kalashnikov will be empty with series fire.
The reason is that the peacenicks who are taking over the government are insisting that any bullits made in the USA be unable to hit anything. Now-a-days when a homeowner protects himself by shooting the robber its called an accidental shooting because the ammunition has been trained to know better.
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Brian
Just reading through this topic again. How did you make out with your Russians this year? This was an interesting topic to follow but kinda slid down through the pages as time went by.
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This is my frist year how ever the guy that is helping me and I help him is a state inspecter. Well he has Russian bees well he bought 10 more hives with other bees well he made me two splits. But now we have requeend them with Russians. But some time when he go's to look at other peoples bee in this county ill go to but I take my own truck. Russian bees as I have seen are a lot more layed back. Thay do better. And he breads his own Russian queens and is showing me how to do it. And when you get the Russian hive right by some other one you can tell the diff. + ive worked with 457 hives at once not Russians and thay was not near as calm. Now the guy has 2,000 and we are good friends. And the state guy only lives 3 miles from my house as the bee flyes lol
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I got my russians via the back door. I bought 4 packages this spring: 2 NWC, 1 MH, and 1 Italian. I then built them up enough and split Buying 2 Russian queens from Wilderness Apiary. I gave the 2 NWC to my brother--they're his personal favorite bee. The Russian splits are in 2 story mediums nucs for the winter and I like the heck out of them. Very impressed with their industry and ability to made the max with fewer bees/
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if you want any pure russians ask my buddie that is a USDA russian breder, he has the russians,
http://www.porterfarmbees.com/
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One of the guys in my beeks group is a Russian Queen Breeder And sells nucs. I will find out his web address and post it later.