Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => REQUEENING & RAISING NEW QUEENS => Topic started by: Kathyp on December 29, 2006, 08:09:32 pm
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i am not looking for a big bee yard, but with the cost of bees and queens, i'd like to be able to keep things going without a yearly, and large, expenditure. i also do not want to get into the whole lab, queen cup, equipment thing.
i read an article a long time ago and don't quite remember all of it. i didn't really understand it at the time, but it went something like this: you take a small box, like a divided shallow super and put a frame of eggs in it and a couple of frames of foundation. shake some workers in and let them raise a queen. i'm sure there is some pollen feeding or something involved and it seemed they said you could raise more than one queen if you divided the box.
does this sound familiar to anyone? seems like it would work.....kind of like making a little split without the queen, but with the queen potential?
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Here's a synopsis of the concepts:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm
A walk away split is a way to get a queen:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm
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you take a small box, like a divided shallow super and put a frame of eggs in it and a couple of frames of foundation. shake some workers in and let them raise a queen.
This is opposite to all what is my experience and what I have read. We may argue about that how small nuc may raise a queen but that is not the meaning. Often when I prepare the hive to raise queens, it destroyes most of cells and raise under ten pieces. When first hive want to swarm in summer, it is eager to raise queens and it goes well. It is easy to get 15-20 queen.
I raise my queens because they are expencive and losses are big. I raise twice as much queens what I need. I bye from professional beekeepers a couple of queens, then I follow a while what they are and take descendants. It is difficult to get from small yard good mother queens.
It is worth to get some queen rearing book and adapt the scale to own needs.
The secret is a size of queens. In small nucs raised queens are often almost worker size and they will not be good.
If you know some professional beekeepers, he may give or sell an old very good queen mother which he is going to kill otherwise. There you get good daughters.
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Criteria of selecting queens
Breeding is same as selection from good alternatives. Without selection you are not a breeder.
Here is some criteria:
http://www174.pair.com/birdland/Breeding/NWC.html
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The dirty quick way:
Make a nuck set a side or a walk away split like MB says. Get a frame with new eggs from what you think is your best hive. With a sharp knife make a dropping bow cut through the area with new eggs. Remove the wax below the bow cut. Remove eggs from one side along the bow cut to eliminate cells to grow together.
On the other side remove three cell let one stay. Repeat this remove three let one stay along bow cut edge. Place the frame with bow cut in the walk away split or nuck. Wait 9 days until cells are sealed. Now examine the bow cut frame and remove with care remove the queen cells you don’t need. There should stay one in hive. The rest you can use in new established queen less splits. Those you of course have prepared in advance when you have a feeling of how successful this batch have been. You cut out the cells with a peace of foundation attached so you gentle can place it in a frame in new established hive.
A bow cut can give you 4-6 queen cells in a nuch or walk away split. If you need more you have to dig deeper into this queen stuff. The bow cut is so simple that anybody can do it.
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The dirty quick way:
A bow cut can give you 4-6 queen cells in a nuch or walk away split. If you need more you have to dig deeper into this queen stuff. The bow cut is so simple that anybody can do it.
The most simple and very succesfull way is to change to warming cells larvae from best hive. Then make mating nucs from swarming hive and you have no difficulties.
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The worst way
Take hive's self made swarming queen cells and you will ruin your be yard. You make your whole yard swarmy.
Second worst is take from good crossbreeded hive.
(different opinions no needed because they exit among natural beekeepers)
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please reread her opening message! It was not about queen breeding, but keeping cost low.
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please reread her opening message! It was not about queen breeding, but keeping cost low.
I cannot understand that comment. Head line reads "making queens". ....... that you need not to bye them......
Beekeeprs are odd people . When they bye the queen it must be the best. When they raise their own, it is enough if it resembles queen. :-D
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Honestly, it all sounds too confusing, everybody's opinions differ so much. Gonna get a book on queen rearing. Great day. Cindi
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In raising queens you will find, probably, the widest range of advise imaginable. I believe you need to focus on the needs of your operation and make your decisions from that.
Finsky is a very knowledgable beekeeper but he is not a hobbiest--he makes much of his income from a sideline business. Anything that does not yield the best results to him seems idiotic.
I think it permissable for the hobbiest to experiment with various ways of doing things. That's how we learn. From those experiences we can chose what works best for our individual circumstances.
I think every beekeeper should experience raising queens from brood frames in a nuc, doing splits, etc., so that they know why certain things should be down and why other things shouldn't be done.
Call me crazy but that's the way I look at it. I try to answer the questions asked and let the beekeeper learn from the experience.
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i appreciate all info. what i was thinking of was doing late split. it occurred to me that if i could time it right, and have a queen ready to go, i'd give that split time to build up some before the weather changed. i'd also not disrupt to much the honey gathering of the hive from which i made the split.
i like to experiment, but i like to do it in an informed way. thanks to all for the ideas.
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I like to digest all the suggestions then work out what works for me.All I know is everytime I read Michael Bush's web page I learn somethig everything I've done
that he has suggested has worked for me
kirko
good luck
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Finsky is a very knowledgable beekeeper but he is not a hobbiest--he makes much of his income from a sideline business.
Oh no. I have had tens of years 15 hives per year. It is not sideline business. But my goal is to be a good beekeper who get top yields.
There basic is splended queens and stock which does not swarm.
Now I am half retired. I have 30 hives and too much honey. . Beekeeping is not a business in this scale. But if you do not care the money, beekeeping is really expencive hobby. When I go to se my hives, every trip will cost 50$ in gasoline. It is egual 20 lbs sold honey.
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AND READ HEADING: This new forum is an outlet where anyone interest in this exciting and ambitious move toward a sustainable business is welcome to communicate on the many ideas and brainstorming needed to be sucessful.
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Last year I did a little bit of queen rearing using capped queen cells from a colony that had killed (or maybe she just died, I saw her being removed), cutting them out and putting in a a couple of nucs (5 nucs). I don't think that the success was very good. I had three nucs that became queenless after about a month, one of the queens was small, and one queen just did not make it. So I did a lot of uniting.
The small queen was the one that had the dead bee that must have bit her thorax and died, stuck so tightly onto this queen, that I knew she would not make it if I continued to try and get this bee off, so I killed her and united this colony.
It was a year of incredible learning and hopefully growth. That experience last summer is not going to deter me from doing more queen rearing. I can't wait for this upcoming year to put all my wonderful knowledge gained through everyone on this forum into practical use.
Hooray for the dog days of summer a'comin' on. The days are getting longer, minutes by minutes. Great day. Cindi
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Kathy,
I'm going to try and raise queens by taking a frame of eggs in new comb, eliminating surrounding cells similar to Jorn's description, and then laying the comb flat above a strong, newly (less than a week, probably just a day or two) queenless colony for them to build the cells. You have to put blocks of wood or something between the top bars and the donor comb so that there's space for the girls to build and move around.
The idea is, the bees will draw out queen cells straight down from the donor comb.
Then, carry on with putting capped queen cells in your mating nucs (like the boxes on Michael's page, or standard nucs).
I'll probably also try the Jay Smith method, which just involves those extra steps of cutting the comb into a strip and waxing to a top bar. Either way, I'm going to adhere to Jay's method of feeding the cell building colony (that feeds and caps the cell) honey and real pollen, rather than syrup/substitute, if they need feeding at all at that point in the season.
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Kathy,
I'm going to try and raise queens by taking a frame of eggs in new comb, eliminating surrounding cells similar to Jorn's description, and then laying the comb flat above a strong,
Where you those 50 queens when they will hatch during 2 days?
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Where you those 50 queens when they will hacth during 2 days?
That many. I do not think this will happen. Not even in a normal queenbreeding way. 5 to seven if a bowcut. I have only used this if no queen was at hand when needed.
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That many. I do not think this will happen.
You are right. And it is not easy to make mating nucs for beginner. But mistakes teach.
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You are right. And it is not easy to make mating nucs for beginner. But mistakes teach.
I have used some simple tools. A 4-sided square box with lid but bottom made of hardware cloth. 8cm x 8cm x8cm. A small 1-frame nuc box size a quarter of LS. When I need those boxes filled I take a big big bucket and a 500gr honey jar. I now take 2 to 3 frames with young bees from strong hives (Be careful that the queen still is in hive). With a slap of hand on the frame over the bucket, and the bees will fall into it. Old bees will fly away and young bees will stay. Now and then slightly bang the bucket against the ground so that the bees are thrown back into the bucket. You need one coffe cup of bees for the one frame nuc so two frames pro queen should do. When you think you have enough bees start filling the boxes by filling the jar with bees and poor one jar into the square box. Lid on then the next square box. When done transfer the square boxes to a shadow place and with a brush put honey on the hardware clothe. Let the bees stay there for some few hours. No get the queens and grab one. Throw here into the box with bees. Feed again and then let the box with bees and queen rest until the morning. Here you throw the bees and queen to the one frame nuc box and with closed entrance transfer the box to the mating yard. This is the way you can handle nice or normal tempered bees. How to handle nasty bees (do you have those Kathy) I have no advice.
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Fin,
I don't anticipate as many as 50 queen cells, much less emergent queens, and since I agree with the difficulty of getting them mated, well...I'd welcome an oversupply to cover the bases. At least, as many as can be covered by workers. (I do have the equipment.)
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Jorn, I like the description of the bees in the deep bucket, filling the 8cm square box, and so on. It seems like a pretty simple idea. Is there most of the time queen acceptance when she is put into such a tiny box with the bees and given to rest in a shady spot for a few hours? The idea of not having to worry about putting a queen into a queen cage sounds good. I had to put a queen in a queen cage once and it was rather a tricky thing. Of course inexperience was in my hands though. Thanks. Great day. Cindi
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The problem with the comb flatways is you'll have a lot of clumps of several queen cells. It's best to eliminate every other row and then in the remaining rows, 2 out of 3 cells. Sort of like the Jay Smith Better Queens method but without cutting the strips, just removing the larvae. AKA the Hopkins method.
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/QueenConfinement5.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/HopkinsShim.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/HopkinsFrame.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm
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Is there most of the time queen acceptance when she is put into such a tiny box with the bees and given to rest in a shady spot for a few hours?
Hello Cindy! When you use the bucket to square technique, the acceptance of queen in the square box is 100% at least with the bees I have been working with. The trick is the young feeded bees in the box. I have used it for filling up mating hives, but it can also be used for adding a queen to a hive. Here you just remove the box lid then turn the box up down on the frames. Cover with an empty super. Hive lid on. Next day remove the empty super and the square box.
Because she was added with a court of young feeded bees she will be well accepted. I do not know if it goes for Russian, but I think it will be a better way than just in a queen cage.
A real dirty way adding a new queen (she must be mated) is just to slip her into the entrance (the old queen does not need to be removed). This must be done on a real sunny day so that as much of old bees are foraging. Theory is that the bees see her as a queen getting back from mating and as a queen in a quiet replacing situation. It is more often than people think that to queens are present at the same time in hive. The oldest will after a short time just disappear without swarming.
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Jorn, thanks, that is very interesting, but now poses a couple more questions if you could answer.
<Because she was added with a court of young feeded bees she will be well accepted. I do not know if it goes for Russian, but I think it will be a better way than just in a queen cage.>
Why, my guess is that there is enough of her particular scent that becomes spread quickly to the colony because of the amount of young bees and she is not seen as an intruder?
<A real dirty way adding a new queen (she must be mated) is just to slip her into the entrance (the old queen does not need to be removed). This must be done on a real sunny day so that as much of old bees are foraging. Theory is that the bees see her as a queen getting back from mating and as a queen in a quiet replacing situation. It is more often than people think that to queens are present at the same time in hive. The oldest will after a short time just disappear without swarming.>
What does the bolded part of your previous paragraph mean? Maybe just a little language barrier, please elaborate. I would guess that the best time of day would be on a hot day, around say 12:00 to 1:00? thanks Jorn. Great day. Cindi
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Yes, the Hopkins method is what I meant. The name escaped me at the time I posted. And yes, I had intended on destroying surrounding cells, as per Jay Smith.
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Why, my guess is that there is enough of her particular scent that becomes spread quickly to the colony because of the amount of young bees and she is not seen as an intruder?
I have no experience with Russian Queens, Just read that they are difficult adding a new NO Russian queen to, so it was just a thought.
as a queen in a quiet replacing situation. What does the bolded part of your previous paragraph mean? Maybe just a little language barrier, please elaborate. I would guess that the best time of day would be on a hot day, around say 12:00 to 1:00? thanks Jorn.
I am sorry that I did not consult my beekeeping dictionary (Apimondia edition in 22 languages) it mean supersedure Sorry again for the confusion.
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Jorn, thank you for clarification, and no need for an apology. The English language is a difficult one, even we have a hard time with many aspects of it. I am grateful that you take the time to communicate so well to us, obviously you spend much time in looking up words and definitions with a dictionary, this is noticed. Great day. Thanks. Cindi
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You should have a large colony to start and finish any amout of Queen cell over half doz or so.
Select the colony you want your Queen's to come from.
Make a nuc, with the Queen and two or three frames of capped brood.
Leave all the frames that have eggs in the parent hive.
The bees will then start Queen cells, these will not be swarm or supercedre cells.
10 to 12 days later you should have capped Queen cells, cut them out carefully and leave pleanty of room around them. You can put them in a mating nuc or directly in the hive you wish to reQueen. make sure to remove the old queen first.
I have had sucess this way.
After you are through making Queens, save one for the colony you used, if you do not want the nuc for an increase, kill the old queen and put the bees in a standard size box and use the newspaper method to recombine with the old hive.
doak.
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Doak, it was interesting seeing an old post revived. Your method was good and interesting, thanks for posting it. Have a beautiful day, great life, the sun is gonna shine. Great health. Cindi
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From now on I will pick a colony that wasen't superceded. If the bees superced their queen, they figure something is wrong with her. Thats the only choice they have, but not me. If the queen wasen't good it could and usually does come back if it is from the genes.
Last year I had a colony that didn't do very good. They made it through the winter but still wasen't doing anybetter. They superceded and the new queen isn't any better, if as good.
I disagree that using eggs from a swarmed colony will raise swarming bees.
"All" Bees will naturally swarm under certain conditions.
MTC
doak
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usually those are good conditions, but if you see that a colony swarms few years in a row, and you are certain they still have enough room to expand, well that must be genes, but on the other hand genes...
queen A is very swarmy, B C D E are other queens, we know that drones are actually queens replica, s far as genes go so
A colony swarms this year, the queen left in the colony is now only HALF A queen, so the third year and the third queen is only one quarter of A queen... basicly, it's more a coincidence that the same hive swarms..i don't know 3-4 years in a row, because after 4 years,almost all genes of the so called swarmy queen are disappated.
at least i see it so, maybe i'm wrong
as for supercedure, i think it's a good way to make an extra queen, at least i hope it is, i'll try to remove the old queen and use her for a new colony, because in my criteria she is still more than good, especially compared to one of my poor queens.
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Mici, you have a point on one thing.
When I said something was wrong with the queen, I didn't think about a physical defect.
Not sugesting yours have one.
But on the other hand I have seen what appear to be perfectly good queens be superceded.
Good patteren and all.
doak
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My queen that the overwintered Carniolan colony wanted to supercede is absolutely nothing less than fantastic. I will post more on what I saw yesterday when I inspected this colony that was babied through the winter with a terrarium heater. Amazing female heading that hive!!!! Have a wonderful day, great life, great health wishes to all. Cindi
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One of the hives that swarmed is on it's forth year. This is the first swarm it has produced. I don't know if
it was ever superceded or not. The other swarm is a 50/50 chance it came from the same colony that this
swarms mother colony came from. This is from the original swarm that came out of the woods in 2000.
All the colonies that came from that original swarm has a large build up each year and makes a lot of honey each year.
I think I'm trying to say something here.
My other colonies that came from other sources and was requeened with ordered queens, haven't done half as good.
Really haven't gave it much thought till now.
Funny how things come to mind when you have someone to talk to about it.
:roll:
doak
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Doak, in this forum, with our new and old friends, you will always have someone to talk to.
This is a good thing, our friends will always listen, everyone has a great story to tell, be it long (like mine), short and this goes on and on and on. Have a great day, great life, great health wishes to us all. Cindi
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Speaking of making "queens". Just thought I'd pass this along.
Do the math.
If I want to raise some queens and have enough for all my colonies, (7), it would pay me to get one of the queen rearing kits. It will pay for itself this year.
I would think one would have better control of the timing of the process.
What yall think.
doak
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>What yall think.
Here's what I think:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm
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Michael, I just have to tell you that you put a smile on my face and make me laugh. I love how you help people out so much by directing them to your fantastic website. I want to thank you again for being such a wonderful mentor to so many of our forum members (including me), thank you, have a great life. Cindi
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I just got tired of typing the same thing over and over...
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The worst way
Take hive's self made swarming queen cells and you will ruin your be yard. You make your whole yard swarmy.
Second worst is take from good crossbreeded hive.
(different opinions no needed because they exit among natural beekeepers)
Finsky, if "hive's self made swarming queen cells" are used "you make your whole yard swarmy" then that would suggest that queen's eggs should have not been used to make nucs, and can never be used for nucs. I don't believe the decision the old queen made to swarm can affect the decision of the new swarm queen. If her decisions can be influenced at all, it would seem to me workers left in the hive would have a greater influence, such as in causing afterswarms with a virgin queen.
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finsky's statement lacks something. and i think we all know what.
there are different reasons for a colony to swarm, if you can't find any obvious and good reason, it's just swarmy, and it would probably really be a bad idea to take it's cell. but than again...an egg is only half the queen in genes.
still, finksy's experienced, so i can't opose his statements,.
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finsky's statement lacks something. and i think we all know what.
Who knows and what knows? That one sentence should contain everything - hick! There is no great secret in this issue.
Most beekeepers do not know why bees swarm!
Basic is that honey bee reproduce in that way - few knows that
Non swarmy is feture made by beekeeper's selection - much fever knows that
If colony is weak, it is not eager to swarm.
Some bee strains swarm as surely as sun rises. Crainian bee is too sawrmy to me.
How to get non swarmy hive to swarm?
* hive is become full of honey - give all the time new space where bees put nectar rippen.
* hive is too crowdy - hive will be crowdy even if it is empty of honey. Bees need just room to expand.
* laying space is missing - very small nucleus will swarm if queen has no space to lay.
* keep od queens.
Why to get non swarmy bee strain?
* when hive is big it gathers honey best - but biggest colonies swarm first!
* non swarmy strain is result of human selection = bee breeding. Non swarmy = non reproducing is unnatural feature.
* If colony have natural instincts, it swarms when yield is at it's best. That is great idea of nature but disaster of beekeeping.
I just had very distant beeraces which I crossed: Italians and Elgons. Hybrids become too swarmy, worse than crainians.
I explained to me that "nonswarmy" features are in different genes and it is abnormal feature in nature. When I crossed those strains, genes were healed. Hybrids were swarmy and agressive.
Agressive means that they protect they home and stores. It is natural habit. Unnatural is that bees not attach on beekeeper.
I have had 30-40 years ago "Rural German Black bees" . No one breeded them and they were awfull to keep. The size of colonies were 1-2 Langstroth boxes and then it swarmed. Then I got Caucasian bees. Origin was from Canada. I start to get honey yields.
In those good old days in Finland guys had old fassion hives which has 2 box space. When They byed selected new bees, they got again only brood and swarms - because that beestrain needed 6 boxes space. They said that bees are not good.
But however, it is nice that you know all. - If you know a little you know all. Don't try more. It is only bad to your soul. And honey selling is worst.
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To get rid of swarming - buy commercial queens.
To get swarm - let bees raise their own queens and do not make selection= breeding.
Nature knows better, but only in that case if you do not know.
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I do not know all. Swarming is my problem very often, just now a farmer called to me that bees are in bird box near my hives. I drive there in evening 160 km. Another swarm is now in one farmer's shimney.
Maarec has good advices what to do with swarms. http://www.ento.psu.edu/MAAREC/pdfs/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf
Further more, I change my queens every year. It happens that often queen shows it's swarmy tendency in second year.
You must fight against swarming every year by queen selection.
Mici is right. Queen is only half of colony's genes, but it is difficult to control drone side if you have other beehives nearby. I used last year as drone hive a colony, which swarmed 2 times this year. This summer was not good .....
sssssss happens even in better families.
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Finksy, it is good to see you post again in the forum. Your words of 45 years experience keeping bees is welcomed by me in particular. I listen and learn. Have a wonderful day, best of this beautiful life. I hope your season was not overly bad, I remember you saying that it was not doing so well. Cindi
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I hope your season was not overly bad, I remember you saying that it was not doing so well. Cindi
Our honey summer has been on bad side statistics. It has been a lot of rain. Rape has bloomed 5 weeks but it hives quite few honey.
Now we are going into fall. After 3 weeks we give winterfeeding.
June was cold and rainy. Hives must be feeded untill to end of June. Hives were too small after June.
Just now weather is extremely good. Heather and red clover may surprise us with honey.
Just now hives are swarming happily because they are too full.
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Finsky, we have had a pretty bad summer here too. The rain in June (almost no days of bee flying weather) in my immediate area was harsh. No chance for the bees to really get out and get the blackberry flow, which is huge. My bees have not built up as I thought that they would. The weather has been off and one. About two weeks ago we had one full week of rain, heavy rain. It killed all the cucumber plants that I was growing, dead, right to the ground and that was bad. Other plants are doing pretty good, but things are not like they were last year, where we had almost 3 months of no rain. I think that many people have had a tough year with the bees gathering nectar and pollen. EXCEPT Dane Bramage, I think that he has all the good weather and the nectar/pollen plants too, it sounds like he has too much honey to know what to do with ;). Good luck with the flow that still may be coming on, we are doing much better now with our weather too and have almost into the middle of October before we have frost kill, which will end all chance of nectar gathering.
Any honey that I may be able to take off must be done by September 5, then the formic acid treatment must be in place to prepare the bees for a mite free wintertime. Then around the 1 of December I will apply oxalic acid to "get" any mites that may have been missed by the formic acid, during the broodless period. We have not just under a month for the bees to work for us. I am preparing now for next year of wonderful building up with my colonies. Have a wonderful day, great life, good talking to you, Finsky. Cindi
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with all of us, i meant the standard old gang that is on this forum, also, if a beek doesn't know why bees swarm, why bother keeping bees :(.
now...i could write back, why i wrote that, and count all the reasons for a hive to swarm and in which case swarming is a sign of "bad" genes and in which it's a sign of a strong colony, but you already did it.so, why shoudl i bother. it's only that i'm confused, wether you were offended by my statement or what?!'! i'm really confused, anyway as it looks i got you upset , which is a good thing, because you wrote all that stuff, hehe, thanks.
for the record:
Carnis/carniolans , but probably it was just a typo.
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finsky, it wasn't a good summer for lots of us :-\
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swarming is a sign of "bad" genes and in which it's a sign of a strong colony,.
....new typo??????
Only sign of strong colony is number of boxes. Over 5 boxes are strong.
Swarming means that hive is devided and is not any more strong. Swarming is sign of lacking foraging power.
40 years ago I had a german black hive which never had over 4 frames. It swarmed at once if it got more bees.
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the quotation you made is incomplete and missleading. that's not a really nice thing to do. and no, it's not a typo
a swarm can also be a sign of a strong colony. of course, the beekeeper has to be a bit...sloby, to let them run out of room, or the technology he's practicing is not the best.
Swarming is sign of lacking foraging power
this is the first time i hear something like this.
40 years ago I had a german black hive which never had over 4 frames. It swarmed at once if it got more bees.
in this case, we could talk about "bad" genes.
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Mici
> Swarming is a sign of lacking in foraging power.
I think what Finsky meant by that was:
When the ratio of nurse bees to foraging bees gets too high it is a prime time for a swarm to issue. This is true. If there are too many nurse bees, the colony WILL more than likely swarm. I have read this fact through bee research, and it makes alot of sense. Sometimes these small details are not known by many people. Have a wonderful day, great life and love this life. Cindi
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Mici
> Swarming is a sign of lacking in foraging power.
I think what Finsky meant by that was:
Useless to hink what I think.
When hive swarm, half of bees leave the hive and hive is not able any more get surplus honey. It is so simple.
Swarming = hive is swarming = they are flying on the level of tree tops - hastala vista = whole year's work is disapearing to the blue of sky.
Bad genes and good genes is not explanation to bee if colony is worthless.
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yep honey crop go by by :-D I hate it when that happens ;) keep posting finskey need your flare back around here RDY-B
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Got that right on Rdy-B. Beautiful day. Cindi