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Author Topic: Queen excluder.....Or not  (Read 2917 times)

Offline rayb

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Queen excluder.....Or not
« on: May 10, 2006, 04:22:22 pm »
My books say to use a queen excluder, but by reading some of the posts on this forum I see some do not use them. As a new guy, can you tell me about not using an excluder?

What are the benefits?
How high does the queen lay?
Does that present any logistics problem when it comes time to extract?
What are the negatives to using an excluder?
Is there any different hive managment when not using the excluder vs. using one?

Thanks. Ray

Offline Finsky

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Queen excluder.....Or not
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2006, 04:39:35 pm »
There are many methods to use excluder. I have not seen clarifications. It seems that it is secret.

I do not use it in honey system because I do not need.

Online Michael Bush

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Queen excluder.....Or not
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2006, 10:15:40 pm »
>My books say to use a queen excluder, but by reading some of the posts on this forum I see some do not use them.

I'd say MANY do not use them.  :)

> As a new guy, can you tell me about not using an excluder?

Just say no.

>What are the benefits?

More honey, less swarming, less wear and tear on the bees squeezing through the excluder.

>How high does the queen lay?

As high as she wants.  Which, of course, is a good thing.  The more she lays the more bees and the more bees the more honey and the more room she has to lay the less swarming.

>Does that present any logistics problem when it comes time to extract?

Since I run all the same size boxes, none at all for me.  I pull them a frame at a time and brush off the bees.  If there's brood I put it back in the hive and take a frame of honey instead.  When I didn't have the same sized boxes, I still didn't use an excluder, but it was more complicated.  I had to either cut the brood out, if it was a small patch, or put all those odd frames of brood together on the weakest hive.

>What are the negatives to using an excluder?

Swarming, hard to get them to work the supers, less honey.

>Is there any different hive managment when not using the excluder vs. using one?

You have to think about the fact that drones can't get through the excluder, if you use one.  The drones have to be able to get out.  If you add an excluder with no top entrance you could trap drones in the supers. If you add an excluder with no botom entrance, you could trap the drones in the bottom.  In order to get the bees to work through the excluder, you again, need to have the same sized frames so you can bait them up through the excluder with a couple of frames of brood above it.  Without an excluder, baiting them up is a moot point.
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Offline rayb

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Excluder
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2006, 07:33:08 am »
Michael, thats a lot of great information and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. This is my first year and I'm learning a lot from this forum. There is comfort in following "The Book" when new but I think I need to consider that there are sometimes more options out there. I can't seem to learn fast enough. Thanks, Ray

Offline JP

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queen excluder
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2006, 07:42:13 am »
Ray,
a queen excluder may come in handy on a recent swarm catch to keep the queen from leaving, of course first you have to capture the swarm :?
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Offline rayb

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Re: queen excluder
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2006, 09:06:01 am »
Quote from: JP
Ray,
a queen excluder may come in handy on a recent swarm catch to keep the queen from leaving, of course first you have to capture the swarm :?


Thanks, I'm working on giving them enough room . Hoping to avoid the swarm experience, although that would sure free up a lot of space in the hive ( smile).

? Is there anyone out there who honestly can say they have avoided swarming or is it just a matter of time?

Here's hoping I don't experience all beekeeping events in my first year.

Ray

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Queen excluder.....Or not
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2006, 08:50:09 am »
Swarming is just a matter of time, regardless of what some might tell you.
That said, there are ways to restrain the swarm tendency:
1. Easy access by the bees to all parts of the hive--keep the beespace open; forget about excluders, except for retention of a new swarm.
2. Give them lots of room--add boxes when the last one added is 80-90 percent full, waiting too long can induce a late season swarm even from packages purchased that spring.
3. Use a system that allows for environment control such as ventilated tops and screened bottom boards.  Ventilation reduces condensation within the hive, reduces the likely hood of AFB, EFB, chillbrood, chalkbrood, or sackbrood and is one of the most over looked aspects of beekeeping.
4. Use multiple brood boxes, it pays off in increased honey production.
5. Try using slatted racks in place of a queen excluder, this has the benefit of adding expansion room.
6. Michael Bush's recommendation of using one size box throughout is one I support strongly--but then I'm forced to due so due to physical limitations (wheelchair).
7. Split for Nucs during the May or June honey flow from established hives--take any frames with queen cells for the Nucs.  If you leave the queen cells behind they'll still swarm, you have to fool them into thinking they've already swarmed.
8. Try using 2 frames of foundation in each box of drawn comb.  Giving them something to work on does the same thing as giving them more room and doesn't inhibit the honey production that much.
9. Re-qeen on a dedicated timetable--bees often swarm as a by-product of supercedure of the old queen whether they are crowded or not--even weak hives will swarm.

With luck you can reduce a specific hive's swarming to every second or, really lucky, every third year.  But if you have more than one hive expect at least one swarm every year, figure half will swarm regardless of your precautions.
You've just recieved the results of a hundred years worth of beekeeping experience on swarm control.  My mentor started in 1899 and taught me in the 1950's & 60's and since then I've added my own experience to his.
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Offline rayb

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Swarm Help
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2006, 10:12:43 am »
Thanks Brian, For all the great info. I'm amazed at how fast they can build up and how slow I can be to keep up. One hive is an established one from a commercial keeper and it is going like crazy. It is a little intimidating working with so many bees compared to our newly hived one, but I am gaining cofidence with every inspection as I learn what to look for.
I have incorporated some of the items you talk about and know that there is a lot more I can do. Hope the bees are patient with me.

Ray

Offline RebelRx

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Queen excluder.....Or not
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2006, 03:06:35 pm »
I never use a queen excluder. I live in south central Mississippi and some of my hives have 2 deeps then supers above.  I have a mix of all different size boxes.  But once I get enough mediums I will phase out all other sizes and will use 3 mediums for a hive.  (Michael's theory of simplicity) But I have 3 or 4 excluders that I use for different functions. When switching a hive to all mediums I may use it to keep the queen in a certain portion of the hive while the brood hatches out of the box I want to remove.  There are a few other times I use the excluder but using 2 deeps or 3 mediums the queen hardly ever goes up into the 1st super.  Thats the great thing about beekeeping there are so many different ways to do things you're bout to find one you like.

Offline rayb

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Queen excluder.....Or not
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2006, 03:40:37 pm »
Thanks, being my first year of keeping I am  finding that it is not as simple as what "THE BOOK" says. As I gain experience I can where I can try different styles. Thank you everyone for your explainations. Ray

 

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