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Author Topic: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)  (Read 3958 times)

Offline bmacior

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After reading several posts, apparently I am not the only 1st year beekeeper still feeding the bees.  Actually, I quit feeding last week upon recommedations from here.  I was still feeding for 2 reasons:told/read--you feed until the honey supers go on, and my bees were not drawing out the (plastic) foundation (only 1 brood box at this point) and I thought the syrup would give them the carbs they need to make wax.  The only thing it got me is honey bound.  If those who know would give us newbees assistance on how and when to be feeding, I for one, would be greatly appreciative so my efforts next year are more line of what should be done.  Would like to know more about feeding thin syrup also.  The new hives next year will not be using plastic.

Barb

Offline GJP

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 10:53:11 pm »
I had a similar problem with my hives.  I had one swarm about a month ago and it looks like they are building up to do it again after I checked them this afternoon.  I did stop feeding about the same time they swarmed.  My second have will give me a super full of honey by the looks of it but they too are getting ready to swarm.  I'm guessing my overfeeding has caused all of these problems one way or another.  I never saw the first swarm so they are long gone.  I set out a hive body with frames tonight in hopes I can catch the next one and still build everything up for winter.  Next year I'll stop feeding as soon as there is a good dandelion blooms and good tree pollen and see what happens.

The best advice I got from the other beeks I've talked to was the the bees "don't read"!

Greg

Offline ArmucheeBee

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 11:37:43 pm »
I just put on a top feeder with 1:1 syrup for a hive I captured 3 weeks ago.  They are low in numbers and not building out the wax foundation.  They did add some supports to the old comb we rubber-banned in the frames.  Just added a new queen too.  Should I be feeding?  We have been in a drought, but got good rain last week.  Goldenrod should be starting soon--i'll let them keep all the honey they make for this winter.  Great question--got me thinking about what I have read too.
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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 01:08:31 am »
I just put on a top feeder with 1:1 syrup for a hive I captured 3 weeks ago.  They are low in numbers and not building out the wax foundation.  They did add some supports to the old comb we rubber-banned in the frames.  Just added a new queen too.  Should I be feeding?  We have been in a drought, but got good rain last week.  Goldenrod should be starting soon--i'll let them keep all the honey they make for this winter.  Great question--got me thinking about what I have read too.

Every situation is different.  The purpose of feeding is to aid, not replace foraging.  Feeding for too long can cause the hive to become honey bound and then they swarm.  For a new hive (package, swarm, or cutout) feeding a little to get them settled and drawing comb is a good idea anytime. 

In my book if you feed past development of the 1st brood box you are doing your bees a disservice and they'll most likely swarm from being honey bound.
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Offline Two Bees

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 09:11:07 am »
I agree with Brian.  I packaged two hives on April 20 and were feeding those girls as long as they would take it.  The only problem is they never slowed down!  I stopped feeding about a month ago because I saw SOME honey bounding in the two deeps that I use for the colony.  But no swarm cells.  They have used some of the stored syrup-honey that they had stored and appear to have calmed down.

Even though I had a medium super on top of the two deeps with no excluder that they had just been playing with and not seriously drawing out the foundation, I added another medium to ensure that the queen and her court had plenty of space and in anticipation of the goldenrod bloom that is beginning now.
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Offline eri

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 09:36:53 am »
My situation is much the same as Two Bees'. For the past couple of weeks I've been feeding them only once every few days, because the second deep had only 4 frames with brood and pollen and the rest were full of stores, and because the goldenrod is beginning to bloom. They are just now beginning to draw comb in the medium added on top. There are so many bees! I'm waiting to see if perhaps they will consume some of the stores and maybe, just maybe, they will store some goldenrod honey in a few frames in the medium so I can have just a taste!
On Pleasure
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People of Orphalese, be in your pleasures like the flowers and the bees.

Offline johnnybigfish

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 06:51:51 pm »
 I'm feeding now because theres no nectar...115 degrees yesterday..been over a hundred for a few weeks...Everything is drying out here....

your friend,
john

Offline NWIN Beekeeper

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 07:16:49 pm »
[ If those who know would give us newbees assistance on how and when to be feeding, I for one, would be greatly appreciative]

I think the point that is missed (or not conveyed to new beekeepers) is that bees go through stages of development. These stages are often a year at a time. The first year is an establishment year. This means the bees will drawn brood comb and area to store nectar in the brood area and pollen. You should have been told to watch your brood nest and if it bacome nectar bound to stuff in new frames of foundation and/or extract frames and put them above the brood chambers.  Your success would  have been vastly different.

All too often I see nucs or small hives that put up a full frame of nectar next to two frames of brood and quit. And then they sit there and look at each other. You have to be proactive in your inspections and assess what the bees have done, what do you want them to do, and what do you need to do to 'inspire them' to maybe do what you want.

Year two is hoarding year. The bees tend to put away a better honey crop as the brood area is contructed and functioning as desired from all last year's hard work.

This tends to be the reason why drawn combs are so valuable. It blurrs the the line between year's one and two and gives them a significant jump start into hoarding and honey storage.  From a distance it looks like the hive just performs better, but look at it at the grass roots level and it makes perfect sense.

With this in mind, a hive forced to perform a huge honey crop the first year may not be focused on the issues that establish itself for winter survival (like pollen storage or proper worker cell paterns in the brood nest). Hope this makes you think at a honeycomb level.

-Jeff
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Offline annette

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 07:35:41 pm »
Thanks Jeff

That was very interesting and informative. Although I understand how to keep the broodnest open for queen laying, I liked how you explained the "Bigger" picture. The importance of the getting ready for winter storage.

Annette

Offline eri

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 08:02:01 pm »
OK, NWIN, what about this plan: my one hive (package April 20) seemed honeybound in the 2 deeps. I am transitioning to mediums, so I put a medium on top as a super. If/when they put stores up there in more than 3 frames, I take maybe 1 frame for me if it is filled 2-3 weeks after the goldenrod flow, then move the medium and whatever frames are left in it (plus the now harvested frame I removed) between the 2 deeps. Feed after the switch until they don't take it. They then have stores near the brood nest (which is mostly below but some on top). Overwinter. ???
On Pleasure
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And to both, bee and flower, the giving and the receiving of pleasure is a need and an ecstasy.
People of Orphalese, be in your pleasures like the flowers and the bees.

Offline bmacior

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 08:26:55 pm »
Jeff.

Thank you for your very good answer.  I did watch and manipulated my frames to keep new foundation next to the brood.  Maybe I was expecting too much (like 2 full brood boxes) from a first year package in a year that was a month behind schedual weatherwise.  I did expect them to draw out comb quickly, which they didn't, so I kept feeding and they kept storing. 

Your suggestion to manipulate frames is a good one.  What other tips do you experienced beeks have on feeding or managing a first year hive for those of us stumbling along.

Barb

Offline ArmucheeBee

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 09:41:24 pm »
I didn't know that beekeeping was going to be so close to my master's thesis in Biology!!!  I need some honey just to keep my brain going!!  Thank's for all this info.  It is great.  However, shouldn't it be, "Little SHOP of Horrors"? 

Soooo, I should keep empty frames next to the brood and move out those that fill with honey.  Is that a good summary?
Stephen Stewart
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Offline JP

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 10:01:02 pm »
I didn't know that beekeeping was going to be so close to my master's thesis in Biology!!!  I need some honey just to keep my brain going!!  Thank's for all this info.  It is great.  However, shouldn't it be, "Little SHOP of Horrors"? 

Soooo, I should keep empty frames next to the brood and move out those that fill with honey.  Is that a good summary?

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Offline bmacior

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2008, 10:39:45 pm »
house, shop.  I got the "feed me" part right. We'll just call it a senior moment.

Offline NWIN Beekeeper

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2008, 03:15:22 am »
[I am transitioning to mediums...]

I would focus on making the established deep frames as a basis of the hive for this year.
Your bees have pollen stores and cured honey in desirable locations.
If you start to change these frames now, it will be a significant stress on the hive.
I would save any change to mediums until next year - I'll explain why in a minute.

I would take the time to try to get them to draw and put stores in mediums this year.
This way you have drawn combs that are empty for the spring.
In the spring I would rotate the medium bodies in and allow the bees to put the appropriate stores in the appropriate empty cell locations for next years development.
You may need to use an excluder to keep the queen out of the deep that you are replacing.
Your bees may try to put up stores in the deep until all brood is emerged.
Plan to need to extract the deep frames next year.

If you try to impliment the above this year, you bees may not structure themselves for the best winter survival. I'd rather wait and have alive bees next year than force something that results in a dead-out with medium frames.

[Maybe I was expecting too much (like 2 full brood boxes) from a first year package in a year that was a month behind schedual weatherwise. ]

This is not an unreal goal. Your bees were storing your syrup. The question is where in the hive and why? If it was in the brood nest - did you have full frame of nectar that acted as a wall preventing the bees from expanding onto other frames? If so, you now know that you have to move those frames to the walls of the hive body. If it was above the brood area, the syrup was wet and the bees attempted to cure it. Either thicken the syrup, add more frames to spread out the nectar, or extract to provide space.

[What other tips do you experienced beeks have on feeding or managing a first year hive for those of us stumbling along.]

Hint 1:
Bees like to move up and down more than they like to move sideways.
To get quicker results in drawing and brood frames be sure there is room above the brood nest.
Many colonies will establish faster as a two story 5-frame colony than a single 10 frame box.
Consider dividing hive bodies in half. Once most of the frames are in use, expand to full hive boxes.

Hint 2:
Keep the brood nest warm by keeping several brood frames together.
Don't try to expand by splitting a brood nest too thin to where the brood chills.
Dead brood is a huge set back that takes a hive a long time to recover.

Hint 3:
Queens lay based upon pheromones that reflect congestion.
Adding frames and keeping feed source away from the brood nest improves queen laying.
Open feeding away from the hive can be tricky because it can cause robbing, but it can be done carefully.
Otherwise a slow top feeding is good.
Higher egg laying will result in more brood, more bees, and a better yield (or establishment).


[I didn't know that beekeeping was going to be so close to my master's thesis in Biology!!! ]

Nice thing about beekeeping hives is plagiarism is not only allowed, but encouraged!
Looking at your neighbors answers (adjacent hives) does help!

Keep in mind your paper is a recently conceived theory, bees are an absolute proven by millions of years of survival. 

-Jeff
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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: FEED ME! FEED ME! (quote from the "Little House of Horrors)
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2008, 10:54:52 pm »
[I am transitioning to mediums...]

[What other tips do you experienced beeks have on feeding or managing a first year hive for those of us stumbling along.]

Hint 1:
Bees like to move up and down more than they like to move sideways.
To get quicker results in drawing and brood frames be sure there is room above the brood nest.
Many colonies will establish faster as a two story 5-frame colony than a single 10 frame box.
Consider dividing hive bodies in half. Once most of the frames are in use, expand to full hive boxes.

I;ve overwinter more than one hive in  2 story medium nucs...works well for July splits or late swarms.

Quote
Hint 2:
Keep the brood nest warm by keeping several brood frames together.
Don't try to expand by splitting a brood nest too thin to where the brood chills.
Dead brood is a huge set back that takes a hive a long time to recover.

I never put more than one drawn or empty frame between brood frames.  If I want to enlarge the brood nest I do it thus:   S S B F B B F B S S  This is also pretty much the same idea for keeping the brood nest open to prevent swarming.  You take the extra storage frames and move the up into the super as bait.

Quote
Hint 3:
Queens lay based upon pheromones that reflect congestion.
Adding frames and keeping feed source away from the brood nest improves queen laying.
Open feeding away from the hive can be tricky because it can cause robbing, but it can be done carefully.
Otherwise a slow top feeding is good.
Higher egg laying will result in more brood, more bees, and a better yield (or establishment).

Open feeding must be done away from the bee yard, the further the better, within reason.  I set up my community feeders 50-100 feet from the hives and near vegetation that the bees would normally forage from at some point in the year. 
There are 4 times to feed bees: to start a swarm or nuc, top of winter supplies, stimulate brood production in the spring, and to keep the bees from starving due to dearth or drought.
Feeding, at any time should be done only as long a absolutely necessary.  I fed in late spring to save 2 hives (out of 5) from starving due to prolonged inclimate weather just as the hives expanded to 6 six frames of brood for spring buildup.  Last year I started feeding in mid-August due to drought and lack of forage (the hives were new packages and hadn't built up well.)  I never feed more than to fill one box with comb, and most often only for a week or 2.
Overfeeding can cause swarming from being honey bound.


Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!