queen cells with multiple eggs

[goertzen29]

I checked a hive today that has seemed to be doing well all year.  I thought they had possibly swarmed in early July but was never able to confirm it and the population still seems quite high....

But today I found multiple queen cells located all over the hive with 10+ eggs haphazardly strewn about each one, no royal jelly. There were frames mostly full of eggs as well, There were a couple with multiple eggs.  There was nothing capped and no large larva, just eggs and small larva.
 
What has me confused is that if they went queenless I think if could have only been 2 to 3 weeks ago, and I thought it took longer for laying workers to develop.

Any advice would help.

Jay

[L Daxon]

goertzen,

I had a hive several weeks ago where I saw several cells with two eggs in them and I was worried I had a laying worker.  I thought the hive had probably swarmed a few weeks before.  It turned out I just had a young queen who was "misfiring" and seems now to have gotten the knack of things.  When I checked last week everything look fine. Lots of capped regular worker cells and single eggs and larva.

But if you are seeing up to 10 eggs in a cell, sounds like you may have multiple laying workers (if you get a laying worker you can frequently have more than one.)  If your hive swarmed, the queen could have quit laying for a while before she left and all the brood could have hatched out in say 14 days or so after the swarm left.  Once there is no brood pheromone I think a laying worker can develop pretty quickly, but I don't know for sure.

Do you have another hive you can take some eggs from to give them the material to make a new queen?  I find that to be one of the easiest ways to correct a laying worker situation.  If they don't make a new queencell on the first go around, some times it takes two or three frames of eggs, inserted a week apart, before they make a new queen, but if they really have laying workers, they frequently eventually will "right" themselves if they have eggs to work with.

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm

[BjornBee]

Laying workers develop after the queen is gone and the last of the worker brood opens (21 days after the last egg was laid), usually within 10 days after that point.

So it is about a 31 day period, laying workers develop. You mention they swarmed early July. We are now in August. So the timeframe is correct.

Even if they went queenless two weeks ago, the absence of worker brood allowed them to develop anytime 10 days after losing a queen.

In today's world of SHB and other problems, and the is hive is now going into a crucial period of fall buildup, I would not wait around too long to correct this situation.

[goertzen29]

Thanks for the replys.    I have had a laying worker hive before but never one that resulted in so many eggs, I mean there were multiple frames mostly full of eggs.  In the past it also took me longer to notice and finally noticed when I realized all the brood was drone brood.  I'll add eggs and check back in a few days to see if they are starting queen cells.

jay

[Michael Bush]

It usually takes a frame of open brood every week for three weeks to straighten them out.  It's very unlikely they will start queen cells on the first one.  Kind of unlikely they will start them on the second one.  Most likely they will start them on the third one.

[goertzen29]

That is good to know!  I shook out a hive earlier this year after it didnt raise a queen after giving them eggs twice.  This time I will try three times.

If I happen to find a swarm cell (I destroyed  two the other day in a different hive) can I introduce them and fix the laying worker problems that much faster?  I thought I remember reading somewhere that laying worker hives may try to kill queens/queen cells.

thanks.
Jay

[Michael Bush]

>If I happen to find a swarm cell (I destroyed  two the other day in a different hive) can I introduce them and fix the laying worker problems that much faster?

It often works.  Works better with some open brood in addition.  A cell is not a sure thing but works often enough to be worth trying.

[VolunteerK9]

If I happen to find a swarm cell (I destroyed  two the other day in a different hive)
thanks.
Jay

Destroying cells is a sure fire way of getting laying workers in your other hive. If they are building cells, its for a reason.

[FRAMEshift]

It usually takes a frame of open brood every week for three weeks to straighten them out.  It's very unlikely they will start queen cells on the first one.  Kind of unlikely they will start them on the second one.  Most likely they will start them on the third one.

Michael, what do you think of the idea of doing a combine instead of adding frames of open brood. Here are the things I'm thinking about.

1.  In essence, the combine is the equivalent of adding many frames of open brood all at once, with continuing open brood being produced every day after that. 

2.  You only have to do it once.  You don't have to come back every week to add another frame.

3.  Whenever you are moving a frame of open brood, there is a chance you are moving the queen.  You would have to be careful about removing bees from the frames and then inspecting to be sure the queen is not onboard. 

4.  Unless there is a chance that the queen in the combined hive would be killed by the bees from the laying worker hive, it seems that a combine would be less work and more of a sure thing.

What's the downside to doing a combine?

[Michael Bush]

>1.  In essence, the combine is the equivalent of adding many frames of open brood all at once, with continuing open brood being produced every day after that.

But the laying workers have had NO time to be suppressed and will kill the new queen long before that happens three weeks later IF they had open brood for three weeks which they will not because it will all be capped in 9 days.

>2.  You only have to do it once.  You don't have to come back every week to add another frame.

I've done it and sometimes it works.  Sometimes you end up with a large laying worker hive.

>3.  Whenever you are moving a frame of open brood, there is a chance you are moving the queen.

Not if you shake all the bees off.

>  You would have to be careful about removing bees from the frames and then inspecting to be sure the queen is not onboard.

Correct, but shaking all the bees off is about 3 seconds work and checking is about 5 seconds work.  If it takes you longer you needed the practice anyway.  :)

>4.  Unless there is a chance that the queen in the combined hive would be killed by the bees from the laying worker hive

A fairly good chance that she will or won't.

> it seems that a combine would be less work and more of a sure thing.

It is less of a sure thing.

>What's the downside to doing a combine?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm#other

[goertzen29]

I did add a frame of eggs yesterday, but didn't have time to look for swarm cells in my others hives as the weather was turning the the girls were getting agitated.  I'll wait a few days a reinspect.  Normally I don't destroy queen cells but try to split, or use them someway, but sometimes in the midst of inspecting I find it hard to make a decision with so confronted with so many options and not alot of time.  Usually after a couple hours I critique what I did while inspecting and try to make mental notes of what I will do better next time.  I'm always learning.

Thanks Michael and others for the help. 

Jay

[goertzen29]

It has been a couple weeks now. I checked the hive yesterday but wasn't convinced there was a laying queen yet...Can I place a queen-right hive on top of this hive with a screen board in between to allow the queen pheromone infiltrate the hive and help right itself...or this late in the year would I be better off to just shake out the hive and give up on it.

Jay

[Michael Bush]

You added some eggs on the 10th.  Assuming you added some more on the 17th and some more on the 24th I would expect them to just have started a queen cell and it will be another 28 days before that queen is laying which is about this time next month...