Author Topic: Split Hives and why (Read 6875 times)

hjon71 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 05, 2014, 03:58:40 am »

Question:
Is it normal to split 1hive to 3? How does an early split affect the honey production? I assume not as much as allowing swarming?
OK so 3 questions, sue me ;)

T Beek · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2014, 06:27:58 am »

My prediction…..based on too few brood frames for 3 'early' splits…….? No visible eggs, queen not seen, drone cells likely mistaken for queen cells…….Survival is questionable……sorry. Honey? Likely nonexistent….for any harvesting this year I suspect.

Perhaps if 'new' queens were introduced to the queenless splits, success would be more assured. Although 'if' drones are flying it may still work out. I give it a 20 % chance that any will survive.

GSF · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2014, 07:25:52 am »

Hey T Beek, Did you look at the images on my link? If not look and tell me your opinion. I may have missed it but I'm certain I had a number of queen cells, at least 5 or 6. (not all pictured). I also had more drone cells than queen, most dcells on the bottom of the frames.

Probably a rookie mistake but I figured I was against the wall with a short fuse no win scenario and would have lost bees anyway. I'm thinking maybe 3 weeks ago I took a quick look and saw a queen cell. Next good warm spell I'll check again. If things don't look good (no queen, qcells, larva, brood) I'll do a newspaper combine and put them back together.

I was hoping to get a little (very little) honey this year but overall my plan was to make bees. This June will be the first year mark for me. Thanks.

T Beek · « **Reply #23 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:14:40 am »

Sorry :embarrassed: I wasn't able to access the link, techNOpeasent that I am :laugh:. My concern is that you 'saw' no eggs prior to making the splits. Splits need 'resources' to survive and thrive, brood in various stages, 'some' eggs (if expecting them to 're' -Queen, lots of bees and plenty of food.

"If" those were queen cells from 3 weeks ago….personally I would have waited another couple weeks for any new queens to be mated (seems there are lots of drones in your area based on description) and start laying. Visible larva in various stages indicates a queen was there 'recently' but no eggs shows she's now absent (old queen swarmed? or killed during split) or new one hasn't begun laying…for any number of reasons.

Its not uncommon to have TWO Queens in a single colony in the Spring (a Mother and daughter), assuring for a better colony success 'if' the virgin queen doesn't survive mating and returning.

"Bee Math" is critical when waiting for a new queen to begin her duties. Once the cell has been opened, 16 days after formed, the queen can take up to a week sometimes to mate and return and then another week before she gets going, laying eggs in earnest.

You absolutely MUST find a way to SEE eggs. It is the best indicator for determining whether a queen is present and laying properly. I use one of those 'headband magnifiers' whenever in doubt.

hjon71 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 05, 2014, 09:48:52 am »

GSF- I can't see the image either. Link goes to home page.

10framer · « **Reply #25 on:** March 05, 2014, 10:29:21 am »

he sent me pictures and there are queen cells there. one looked like it had a hinged cap.
hjohn you asked about splitting 3 ways earlier. if i were splitting this time of year to avoid swarming i'd take the queen and a couple of frames with some open brood a frame of pollen and a frame (maybe two) of honey/nectar.
if were trying to increase i'd make as many splits as i though i could and have them all survive.
gary get a jeweler's visor that is lighted to look for eggs. i'm getting to the point that i can't see eggs without just the right light.

GSF · « **Reply #26 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:06:06 pm »

Observation;

Don't know if this means anything. This afternoon I noticed two of the hives, almost at the same time, had several workers at the entrance with their butts in the air fanning.

10framer · « **Reply #27 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:54:57 pm »

scent fanning.

GSF · « **Reply #28 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:57:03 pm »

Does that mean a queen's in there? Or are they just trying to draw the crowd in?

10framer · « **Reply #29 on:** March 05, 2014, 09:45:37 pm »

i would bet on queens since you're a few days in.

GSF · « **Reply #30 on:** March 06, 2014, 01:11:47 am »

If that's the case I'll watch for the other hive to do the same thing. Then on to the next step. From what I can tell on the weather, although not ideal, it won't be impossible to mate.

One thing I haven't seen is a bunch of dead brood outside the entrance, saw a few. The birds may have got there before I did.

I think I figured out the image thing with the pictures so I'll try again;

https://imageshack.com/i/0mcdyqj

https://imageshack.com/i/mwlg2aj

https://imageshack.com/i/e9jfddj

https://imageshack.com/i/0xgrm1j

T Beek · « **Reply #31 on:** March 06, 2014, 07:49:19 am »

Quote from: GSF on March 06, 2014, 01:11:47 am

If that's the case I'll watch for the other hive to do the same thing. Then on to the next step. From what I can tell on the weather, although not ideal, it won't be impossible to mate.

One thing I haven't seen is a bunch of dead brood outside the entrance, saw a few. The birds may have got there before I did.

I think I figured out the image thing with the pictures so I'll try again;

https://imageshack.com/i/0mcdyqj

https://imageshack.com/i/mwlg2aj

https://imageshack.com/i/e9jfddj

https://imageshack.com/i/0xgrm1j

One of the best things about having multiple colonies is to observe their differences as much as their commonalities. Scent Fanning (come here behavior) at one hive may not be observed at another at the same time. Each is operating its own time line.

10framer · « **Reply #32 on:** March 06, 2014, 09:19:46 am »

assuming you had queens emerging over the last day or two and that you have a decent drone population the timing for mating flights is in your favor. highs in the 70's starting saturday and lasting for at least 5 days. if i see drones next week i'm going to graft a few queens the following week and see how they turn out.

T Beek · « **Reply #33 on:** March 06, 2014, 10:21:09 am »

Quote from: 10framer on March 06, 2014, 09:19:46 am

assuming you had queens emerging over the last day or two and that you have a decent drone population the timing for mating flights is in your favor. highs in the 70's starting saturday and lasting for at least 5 days. if i see drones next week i'm going to graft a few queens the following week and see how they turn out.

10framer; Please start another post and let us know how this goes. I've always just let my bees raise their own queens by performing a variety of split methods, with an acceptable success rate IMO…..but have become very interested in the "many" different forms of raising Queens, especially since my focus has been gravitating toward NUC's as a means of accomplishing the goal of creating a "perpetual and self-sustaining" bee yard.

LOCAL BEES RULE! :)

GSF · « **Reply #34 on:** March 14, 2014, 09:15:47 pm »

UPDATE;

Okay gang, here's an update. I was planning to go into my hives Sunday when it is going to be in the 70's. However, "Periods of Heavy Rain" predicted. On the ride home this evening I'm looking at my temp and it's 71. 68 when I got home. So I went in anyway.

Just to jog your memory the big hive is the one in the middle, the smaller hives are sitting right beside it. The smaller are an 8f deep and the larger is an 8f deep with an 8f medium partially filled out.

Today none of the boxes had any eggs or larva. Very few capped cells and just a few drone cells on the bottom. However, I saw a new queen in each of the smaller hives. I did not see one in the bigger hive. It could be that she was there but due to the massive volume of bees I missed her. This one (that I couldn't find the queen in) was one of the hives I was referring to earlier in the thread that was fanning. So she just might be there.

The queen cells were capped on March the 2nd when I made the split. In the last week we've had warm and cool weather. Today sunny and in the low 70s. 70 and 71 Saturday and Sunday. Scattered showers (statewide?) tomorrow. Looking at the two queens my guess is that one of them is mated because she's a little thicker than the other one. The other one may just be a little younger than her. Too early for eggs?

I got to find the "bee math" chart and post it to my favorite places. I'm guessing I should take another look in maybe two weeks? I'll be looking for larva. If I find eggs I'll try to put a frame in any of the other ones if they don't have larva.

As most of you veteran beekeepers know I'm fairly new to all this only having bees since last Jun. I'm not just wet behind the ears I'm wet all over. Just so you'll know I can tell the difference between a drone and a queen. I appreciate any thoughts/opinions/suggestions any of you may have. Thanks.

(modification) The other queen I had was marked, these aren't.

10framer · « **Reply #35 on:** March 14, 2014, 10:49:28 pm »

Quote from: T Beek on March 06, 2014, 10:21:09 am

Quote from: 10framer on March 06, 2014, 09:19:46 am
assuming you had queens emerging over the last day or two and that you have a decent drone population the timing for mating flights is in your favor. highs in the 70's starting saturday and lasting for at least 5 days. if i see drones next week i'm going to graft a few queens the following week and see how they turn out.

10framer; Please start another post and let us know how this goes. I've always just let my bees raise their own queens by performing a variety of split methods, with an acceptable success rate IMO…..but have become very interested in the "many" different forms of raising Queens, especially since my focus has been gravitating toward NUC's as a means of accomplishing the goal of creating a "perpetual and self-sustaining" bee yard.

tbeek, i'll go through the hives tomorrow and if i see plenty of drones i'll start a thread and message you. i grafted some last year all of my breeders this year were mated in my yard last year and their mothers came from 3 different locations. hopefully i've got pretty good diversity going in.

LOCAL BEES RULE! :)

sc-bee · « **Reply #36 on:** March 15, 2014, 01:33:02 am »

28 days start to laying. March 2 it was capped (Usually around 8th day) Today is 15th 13 days+8 =21days. Could have been capped a few more days before you found it. So 7 more days would reach 28 days or could be a few more than 28 depending on how many days capped before you found it. Sometimes they go a little longer than 28days but a good rule of thumb most use. If not laying by that 28days some give another week after that probably no go. So I would think 10-14 days or so.

GSF · « **Reply #37 on:** March 21, 2014, 11:09:33 pm »

Okay, so here we are a week later and I'm back in the hives looking for queens, eggs, and larva. BAM! 3 splits 3 Queens! If you remember last time I went in the hives I only found two queens but the other hive was fanning. I saw what I would call misfiring. I had to look to find an egg every now and then, be danged if I didn't see some little curly larva in one of them, only about 3. My guess is they are working out the kinks before they start popping them out. I took 10framer's advice and got me some a jeweler's visor, makes a world of difference. I'll try to check them out again in another week.

One queen is fat! Of the other two one is medium and the other is somewhat slim. Different breeding schedules? When will they quit firing me up for being in the area?

Tomorrow I'll probably do another split - just kidding!

I'll go ahead and step out on a limb and say that my hive swarmed prior to 2 march. Everything was present in the hive (from what I've read) to make them swarm. Now all I got to do is find them :-X

I really did appreciate all the comments yall gave. I like to have the whole picture even if it's not always rosy.

10framer · « **Reply #38 on:** March 21, 2014, 11:56:13 pm »

sounds good gary. i'm thinking you may have stepped into a supersedure instead of a swarm. march 15th is the earliest i've ever seen one but you never know. i wouldn't plan on getting a ton of honey this year but tripling up early isn't a bad deal. if they build up you can split off three nucs in july and go into winter with six (or more).

GSF · « **Reply #39 on:** March 22, 2014, 07:34:00 am »

Thanks Rob. I was thinking of the possibility of doing some splits.