Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => REQUEENING & RAISING NEW QUEENS => Topic started by: BjornBee on October 14, 2010, 09:22:07 am
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On another thread, there is some discussion about the distance a queen flies, etc. I did not want to hijack that thread, and wanted to expand a few thoughts.
Here are some things you hear about queens.....
"She flies a certain far off distance to mate (Some suggest up to 6 miles)...
I don't think so.
Before I go any further, a few things needs to be realized. And they come from the bees themselves and what they do in nature.
* Drones congregate in hives that are raising queens. They are allowed a free pass and are invited into the hives.
* In nature, the next nearest hive may be a couple hundred yards away, or a half mile.
* Drone congregation areas are based on the lay of the land, using easily found markers such as a river, ridge, etc.
a few unnatural things that beekeepers add to the mix is....
*Keeping many hives in one area.
*Buying many nucs or queens from one breeder and one genetic stock.
a few things that you should know about queens mating...
* a queen can determine her own drones in the mating process.
* Bees can actually identify an inbreed egg once laid.
In nature, the queen flies as far as she needs to to get mated. She does not fly past several DCA's on her way to some magical spot 6 miles out. She has been programmed over the eons to fly out to the nearest DCA, and mate with the drones available, which would be a collection of drones from the area colonies maybe numbering 5 to 10 within a several mile area.
Hopefullt you understand that inbreeding many times in NOT from a queen mating with her own drones. It has already been established that a queen recognizes her own drones and will reject her drones for mating.
Inbreeding is the mating with the same gentic stock, but from drones from other hives. Think of it this way....you can have 10 hives with the same genetic stock all sitting besides each other in a yard. Yet the bees know at the entrance what bees belong to that hive through pheromones. But they do not know that they are genetically from the same mother by all the queens coming from the breeder. (Yes, you could throw in the fact that each separate queen MAY have different genetic material since the sperm is from HOPEFULLY different drones. But many operations, and especially with a/I...you are mixing sperm from few sources with insemination from the same semen tank.)
So what you have with many beekeepers yards is not this vast mix of genetic material from 5 or 10 local colonies each contributing genetic stock for mating. Many times with beekeepers, you get a saturation of an area with genetic material by the beekeeper installing packages or buying large numbers of queens from the same area. You can also have this situation when a backyard queen producer raises queens all summer with the same beloved queen, saturating his yards with queens from his own narrow genetics stock.
So with that said.....think of the same 10 hives sitting next to each other with the same daughter queens sitting next to each other. The bees know one hive from another though individual pheromones. And they can recognize bees from their own colony. But they have no clue that they are all cousins from the same grandmother. So the queen flies out and mates with drones from these ten hives. She knows which drones came from her hive. That has been proven in studies. But what she does not know is that she is mating with drones from 9 hives with son's from her identical sister's hives.
We all assume that inbreeding happens when the queen mates with her own drones. And that can happen in drastic situations. And some suggest the queen sometimes just gets overwhelmed. (Keep in mind that bees know and clean out pure inbred eggs being paid.) But in a normal healthy DCA, she will not mate with her own drones. She will mate with other drones, but inbreeding happens when that genetic material is the same from the drones being all half-brothers.
Bees do have safeguards against inbreeding. Like the queen mating with many drones, etc. And that is another whole subject. But the queen flies as far as she needs to to find drones. She does not fly some programmed distance to just out distance her own drones. Her own drone are flying here and there, hanging out in other hives and may be in any nearby hive. You really think drones from other hives fly in hang out in the soon to be mated queen's hive, yet when referring to a queen going out and mating, her own drones aren't all over the countryside already? Somehow they all magically stay put and all the queen needs to do is fly some distance? No way.
Inbreeding in nature is probably non-exitant with some very basic controls. Beekeepers change the rules by overstaurating an area with the same genetic stock and making it impossible for the queen not to mate with like genetic material. Colonies usually cast off one or two swarms a year and those queens mate with a varied genetic supply. But the queen's own line that is passed is one colony per year on a line graph. Beekeeper raise 20-30 queens at a time, making a scenario not found in nature. And if a hive does raise 20 queens, 2 or 3 may be cast off in afterswarms, but the majority are killed off within the hive by the dominate queen.
Beekeepers should worry less about how far a queen flies. It means nothing in the scheme of things. But your own queen rearing protocol, and your saturation of large numbers of the same genetic material from packages or bulk orders of queens is the part you can control and which effect quality far more.
What we do is look at beekeeper painted pictures and scenarios and then try to justify (Some guy probably trying to write filler for his upcoming book) what bees do to overcome the unnatural situation that beekeeper place upon bees. But bees were programmed long before we started hitting them with these scenarios and problems
Queens do not fly 6 miles. And most inbreeding problems are not from her mating with her own drones, it is mating with same like genetic material.
Hope this helps.
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bjorn, i agree with most of what you say here. one question in regards to the following:
* a queen can determine her own drones in the mating process.
It has already been established that a queen recognizes her own drones and will reject her drones for mating.
...i've never heard this claimed before...do you have a source you can cite?
thanks,
deknow
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bjorn, i agree with most of what you say here. one question in regards to the following:
* a queen can determine her own drones in the mating process.
It has already been established that a queen recognizes her own drones and will reject her drones for mating.
...I've never heard this claimed before...do you have a source you can cite?
thanks,
deknow
Oh heavens no.
I do not keep a bookmark list and go with what I read.
Usually I am not motivated to dig through all my books and piles of crap until someone calls me a liar or states that my information is wrong. Then I get real bent on finding the information and jamming it down someones throat. :-D Seriously though, much of what I write is what I have learned and read. Where all this came from, is beyond me. :roll:
I know I read an article that queens deny her own drones if she can. I say that because if I remember correctly, she does try to stop these matings but it was unclear if she always could. She can probably sense the pheromones of her own drones along the same lines that the bees can sense an inbred egg once laid and will remove them.
I'll see if I can find something. ;)
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When the first honey bees were brought to the US from Europe, just how many hives did they start with, or how many hives survived (or was it just one hive?) the journey? Due to the expense of bringing bees over, I would suspect that for years, these new US bees were closely related. Do we have any documentation of these early bees?
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thanks bjorn...i've never heard those claims before, so it would be nice to be able to look into them further (a quick google search didn't find anything).
i'll also say that i've been in a largish nuc yard and seen a cluster of bees fall from about tree height. the beekeeper who's yard this was said it was a "mating swarm"...assuming it was a mating we were seeing, and asuming it wasn't a queen from outside the yard coming in, this queen was mating within a few hundred yards of her own hive....and as you described above, this is an unnatural situation (a few hundred nucs in one yard).
deknow
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>...i've never heard this claimed before...do you have a source you can cite?
It's the first time I've heard this claim as well. I am curious...
I've never heard she will go to the "nearest DCA" either. In fact I have heard several of the current crop of bee scientists say she will fly further than the drones to find one (Larry Connor, Marion Ellis etc.).
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>...i've never heard this claimed before...do you have a source you can cite?
It's the first time I've heard this claim as well. I am curious...
I've never heard she will go to the "nearest DCA" either. In fact I have heard several of the current crop of bee scientists say she will fly further than the drones to find one (Larry Connor, Marion Ellis etc.).
I've also heard the latest crop of researchers debunk the claims of smallcell. So do we put faith in them or not? Or do we select only what we want?
The nearest DCA in nature, would be a collection of drones from the nearest hives. Those drones would be from a mile or two distance. Why would a queen fly beyond this DCA? The drones from 10 colonies in the area would be on a percentage of 90% from other hives, and perhaps 10% from hers, assuming 10 hives in the area of any DCA. Drones are also the ones that fly outside their hives and seek hives that are raising queens. Nature must of intended that these drones do this for a reason. They congregate and are even taken into the hive to allow the queen to mate with drones not her own. If she flew 6 miles, this would not be the case.
I've heard many questionable comments from the "scientists" you mention. I will not put all my eggs in one basket and assume that everything they say, write, or suggest, is 100% true. As with those that came before them, their information and data will change with the sands of time. And I can 100% state, that NOBODY knows everything about bees, to the point that we should blindly assume, follow, or believe everything you read.
deknow....Ive seen queens mate in rather short time periods making a trip of several miles not doable. It's funny how these same "scientists" all suggest drone saturation is explained by having drone yards at 1/4 or 1/2 mile intervals around a mating yard, but it now is stated that the queen flies well beyond these intervals and distances. Golly gee....so what is the truth. That you get good coverage of drone saturation with support colonies at 1/2 mile distances, or that the queen ignores all these drone and flies off some magical distance bypassing these drones. So I guess I will be reading that for drone saturation yards, we need to place them at 6 mile intervals. No way!
I've never had a queen mate in the yard. Or at least I have never seen it. But I know I've had many mate within a mile, and certainly within the flight distance of the drones from the very hive to which the queen was issued. That is why since we create very unnatural circumstances not seen in nature with yards holding many breeding nucs, it is best to have a queen from another yard brought in and grafting from, ensuring her daughter queens will mate with other genetic stock. If queens flew past several DCA's and up to six miles, inbreeding would be non existant. Myself, I'll forego the "scientists" comments, and know that the truth is a bit different than those making a living writing papers and constantly under pressure of putting out some new conclusion or finding.
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On a tangent, what exactly is a DCA? To the drones just hang out there all day hoping to score with an unsuspecting female, and if not, later returns to the hive the same day? Then repeat process the next day? Or do they hang out there indefinitely?
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On a tangent, what exactly is a DCA? To the drones just hang out there all day hoping to score with an unsuspecting female, and if not, later returns to the hive the same day? Then repeat process the next day? Or do they hang out there indefinitely?
DCA's (drone congregation areas) are places usually selected for natural features such as a tree line, or other easily seen terrain feature.
Drones normally leave the hives two or three times per afternoon, usually between noon and about 3 pm., although that is not cast in concrete. They do not stay for longer than 20-30 minutes.
Some have suggested the queen goes in a particular direction to a DCA upwind, where she can be directed by the pheromones being carried by the wind. (or is that downwind? I'm confused) I do try to located my drone yards to the west, southwest, northwest of the yards since the wind comes from there.
If you think about it, almost all queens are successful in mating the first day. Did she fly 6 miles and get lucky? Or did she get clues to the DCA by drones in the area, and pheromones cast off by nearby DCAs. I know I think it's no flying 6 miles and getting "lucky". I think there is much more involvement that "luck".
You can usually see a large returning amount of drones at a particular time of most afternoons. Around here, it is between 3 and 3:30. The yards are roaring with drones all returning at the same time. Very neat to see.
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Myself, I'll forego the "scientists" comments, and know that the truth is a bit different than those making a living writing papers and constantly under pressure of putting out some new conclusion or finding.
well, not all research is of the same quality...which is why it's important that details of research are available for scrutiny. again, you've made some claims about what is known about queen mating...presumably some kind of researcher(s) (be they a credentialed scientists, commercial beekeepers, or enthusiastic amateurs) did some kind of work leading to such a claim. it is not possible to evaluate this claim (made by you without any apparent reservation) without knowing the (or a) source....especially since you seem to be the only one reporting this.
deknow
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Myself, I'll forego the "scientists" comments, and know that the truth is a bit different than those making a living writing papers and constantly under pressure of putting out some new conclusion or finding.
well, not all research is of the same quality...which is why it's important that details of research are available for scrutiny. again, you've made some claims about what is known about queen mating...presumably some kind of researcher(s) (be they a credentialed scientists, commercial beekeepers, or enthusiastic amateurs) did some kind of work leading to such a claim. it is not possible to evaluate this claim (made by you without any apparent reservation) without knowing the (or a) source....especially since you seem to be the only one reporting this.
deknow
I have already stated I do not have the material at hand. this fact, does not cloud my own experiences, knowledge of what I read, or the information at hand. If I run across it, then i will post it.
In the meantime, based on your own experience, do you have anything to add, debate, or suggest, without getting caught up on the fact I made mention to something I once read, and fully agree with?
Lets look at it this way....take out the statement about me reading that queens mate in the nearest DCA or NOT flying some pre-programmed distance bypassing several DCA's for whatever reason that may be. Do you have any other comments about my explanation as to the details of what I have seen, know, and makes sense on a practical level?
Personally I would like to see the study that shows queens fly past several DCA's and travels up to 6 miles to mate. But I know I can not ask for that without others getting caught up demanding I find the paper I am referencing.
So for now, I am stating what I have seen, experienced, and know...which is that queens do not fly past several DCA's and distances up yo 6 miles.
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Personally I would like to see the study that shows queens fly past several DCA's and travels up to 6 miles to mate. But I know I can not ask for that without others getting caught up demanding I find the paper I am referencing.
...well, michael posted the names of some of the researchers who said this (and they are names we are all familiar with). it shouldn't be too hard to find, and I bet michael would be happy to post more specific citations if asked. i'm certain that it wouldn't be very hard to trace this all back to the actual studies..at which point we would undoubtedly find flaws in the studies and how they support their conclusions (this is true of virtually all studies). when you say "this is true...because i read it somewhere", you are the only available source of this information, and there is no way to evaluate the claim.
So for now, I am stating what I have seen, experienced, and know...which is that queens do not fly past several DCA's and distances up yo 6 miles.
errrrr....what you have "seen, experienced, and know" is that _some_ queens under _some_ circumstances don't fly up to 6 miles. correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't get the impression that you know where all the dca's are in your area, or if a queen that only flys a mile, or a quarter mile isn't passing a (or several) dca's. i'll also go out on a limb and say that you probably aren't methodically timing all your queen matings, and the ones that come back quickly are noticeable.
i'll also comment that your observation that drones congregate in hives with virgin queens (which i agree with) isn't necessarily because those drones are there to mate with the queen. the queen is also a poor flier, a big target, and a tasty treat. a queen leaving the hive with a bunch of drones (also big and tasty) is, without a doubt, less likely to be picked off by a bird or dragonfly. just because drones are attracted to colonies with virgin queens doesn't mean they are there to mate (and it also doesn't mean it doesn't happen sometimes...the case i cited above is a good example assuming the explanation of the beekeeper was accurate).
deknow
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ok, since I didn't ask, but you offered for them, lets see the data on 6 mile mating flights and bees passing over a number of DCA's to mate further out.
And when you do produce that, it will still be at odds with myself and probably many other observant beekeepers who have experienced different.
I will offer many references to drone saturation yards being at 1/2 mile radius of mating yards. Now why would that be if the queen flies right over several DCA's to further DCA beyond any suggested distance?
You also make the claim I am assuming. I am assuming nothing. I have, and will continue to state, that my own observations, timing of mating flights, and experiences, are that bees DO NOT fly 6 miles to pass by several DCA's to mate. So lets clear that up with your little "assuming" comments. I think I have been more than clear, straightforward, and non assuming in my comments.
I'll pass on your "Drones from other hives are attracted too, and hang out in hives, so they can be an escort for slow moving queens, so they can break free of the blockade and increase their chances of mating, by drones sacrificing themselves with no intent of mating themselves." Although I give you credit on fantasy...the picture is wrong and a bad example of anything close to reality.
The problem with some is that they think that any comments written in a book must be correct. Thank goodness for others such as kathy on another thread that actually has seen bees feeding and helping emerging bees from their cells. But the repeated comments in almost every bee book out there, is that worker bees emerge unaided. That is false.
Next you will be telling me that queens do not feed themselves. Or commenting on one of many other things stated in books over and over....all wrong.
So you read the books, and since you like the term....assume that everything you read in a book is correct. I know as a breeder and a very observant beekeepers, that the books are wrong on this.
The problem with conversation such as this, is one beekeeper is offering his experiences, his knowledge, and information. On the other side, is a beekeeper who holds up a book and claims that it can not possible be correct because someone stated differently in a book. The only difference in making one more correct or wrong should not be based on whether one person wrote a book. To do so would be like me being correct not based on fact or merit, but the mere fact of me writing a book. Writing a book does not make a person correct. And books have time and time again, been proven wrong. Personally, I put more weight in comments from the experiences of those that I am chatting with, as opposed to someone with no experience but standing holding a up a book quoting someone else. ;)
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Bjornbee; you stated earlier in this thread that it has been established that a queen will not mate with a drone from her own hive, in other words, one of her offspring. Where did you get this info? Please provide references. :-D
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Bjornbee; you stated earlier in this thread that it has been established that a queen will not mate with a drone from her own hive, in other words, one of her offspring. Where did you get this info? Please provide references. :-D
Ha, Ha, very funny.... ;)
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:-D Everyone having fun is what makes life good.
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i don't doubt any of your observations, and i never challenged a single one of them.
i do doubt that your observations are necessarily universal.
you didn't claim to have observed that queens pick the drones they mate with, you presented it as an established fact that you read about. all i said was that i had never heard that claim before (do you think i'm lying about that?)...and asked what the source was.
i really don't understand why these things are so upsetting....it seems pretty basic and non confrontational.
deknow
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I am always interested in hearing peoples observations. I prefer they be classified as "their observations" as opposed to known "facts". I certainly don't believe everything that the researchers say, the books say or other beekeepers observe, but I like to organize those things and compare them to my observations.
Here are the observations of a very experienced queen breeder and a very astute observer:
"We are still interested in controlled mating, for no great advances can be made without it. Here in Florida we tried island mating one season, the island being located two miles from our apiary. To test the location to see that no drones were within mating distance, we took six mating hives with virgin queens but no drones. The idea was that if all six of these virgins failed to mate it would be proof that there were no drones within mating distance. In that case we would then weigh out our largest drones, take them there and get controlled mating. But it was not to be. Four out of six mated with the drones of our yard two miles away. We did not believe they would mate with drones at that distance, so we learned that much.
"Many beekeepers claim they get pure mating as there are no bees other than their own within mating distance. I believe if they would try it as we did they would find they would get mating from drones far away. Nature is very solicitous about preserving the species and the queen and drones do court on the sly in a manner unknown to those who try to snoop into their private affairs. Possibly the antenna of the drone picks up the high-pitches sound of the queen's wings miles away. Who knows? "--Jay Smith, Better Queens
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Artificial%20Insemination (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Artificial%20Insemination)
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Drones congregate in hives that are raising queens. They are allowed a free pass and are invited into the hives.
:? How far away will Drones fly from their parent hive to find a hive raising a queens. :?
:? Are drones allowed a free pass and are invited into all the hives raising a queens or queen right or queen less :?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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6 miles :lau: :lau:
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:? How far away will Drones fly from their parent hive to find a hive raising a queens. :?
i don't know...and i don't know if this is a different distance than they would fly drifting into colonies that are not raising queens.
:? Are drones allowed a free pass and are invited into all the hives raising a queens or queen right or queen less :?
....this study shows about 50% of drones in a colony have drifted there....and I don't beleive that virgin queens were a factor (certainly if they were, it was not intentional).
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2000/01/M0110.pdf (http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2000/01/M0110.pdf)
they also saw 8-88% of drones were accepted when artifically introduced into foreign colonies.
deknow
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Here is an interesting article i ran across while looking for the "lost" comments I mentioned earlier.
http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=603 (http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=603)
If you read the article about distribution and makeup of drones in the DCA's and even the randomness of drones moving between DCA's, then it makes you wonder why a queen would fly past several DCAs and up to 6 miles. It goes along with MB posted that drones are in DCA's as far as 2 or 3 miles from their original hive.
And with deknows information showing that up to 50% of drones in hives are from other hives to begin with, genetic selection has already begun the process of diversity before the queen makes in 10 feet from the hive. (Although I am not sure if this 50% was just drones from other hives in massive apiaries, which would be expected anyways. Or from distant colonies much more in a natural setting.)
I think with what others have posted, and the article by Collins, you can see that genetic diversity is being presented to queens if from differing genetic lines, without flying 6 miles out. To which I do not see in my own operation. And as I said before, inbreeding can be a problem when a beekeeper saturates this natural process by flooding the area with massive amounts of bees and queens from one source.
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Bjornbee; you stated earlier in this thread that it has been established that a queen will not mate with a drone from her own hive, in other words, one of her offspring. Where did you get this info? Please provide references. :-D
fish,
While I stated it several ways that a queen does know her own drones, does not mate with her own drones, etc., if you read the entire first post, I also acknowledged that a queen may also be overwhelmed or be mated with her own drones under drastic conditions.
What I remember from what I read, a queen can recognize her own drones and does try to fend them off. If you understand the cone pattern of the drones in flight following the queen, it is an orderly procedure for the most part. How exactly the drones decided who mates may not really be just a frenzied run for the prize type situation by the drones. It's more of the survival of the fittest with the fastest drone leading the pack, and the queen then deciding who she will mate with.
If left up to the drones, or possible cases where the queen is not strong enough for the selection process, she probably gets overwhelmed and is jumped by a large number of drones and then a ball falls from the sky, as someone mentioned earlier.
Think about it. Why would not every queen just be clustered or balled by drones nonstop for long periods of time. You think a couple hundred or thousands drones just back off and say "well that's too bad, bob got to her first, guess I'll go on my way"? No, what happens is the queen somehow determines what drones she wants. And from what I remember from the article, she does have a say or at least attempts to not mate with her own drones.
But that does not mean that a queen can not be mated with her own drones. I think circumstances sometimes allows the queen to overwhelmed for a number of reasons. This was eluded too in the first post if you read the entire post.
I guess we will never get to the main point I was trying to bring to discussion, that being the saturation of genetic stock from one supplier or queen being used to raise all your queens. You can read till your blue in the face and it will always come out with the bees doing what they need to do for genetic diversity though mixing of the DCA's, the drift of drones, etc. It all happens pretty much unaided and successfully. My point had to do with genetic saturation, which from what I understand, is a much larger problem.
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would you believe that some of these concepts are actually covered in an evil book?
deknow (I don't have a digital copy of the final text...this was pasted from the final submission, and is very close (if not exactly) what is printed in "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping"....I hold the copyright, so there are no issues posting this here)
"Queens sometimes mate in or near their yards, and an obvious concern is that the queen will mate with one of her own drones. a few things make this unlikely. For one thing, there are drones from multiple colonies around a DCA, many from several miles away.
Drones drift freely from hive to hive and seem to congregate in colonies where there is a virgin queen or capped queen cell. Most of the drones in a hive are drifting visitors, not raised there, so even if the mating happens close to the hive, the risk of inbreeding is minimal.
"Mating habits and reproductive schemes of plants and animals tend to reflect their reproductive needs. Lobsters have millions of offspring with few expected to survive, while elephants rarely have more than one calf at a time. a lobster that had only one microscopic offspring at a time would go extinct very quickly, and if elephants bred like lobsters, there would be a lot to clean up!
When an animal has an unusual reproductive method, it’s best to pay attention, as there are usually reasons why the system works, and there are consequences to “improving” things.
In order to understand the importance of genetics in breeding, we must take a closer look at the role of drones and queens in the mating process:
[lb] Drones are produced in abundance when the colony can afford to raise them. Drone production usually indicates a strong colony, as they use up a lot of resources.
Drones drift freely between colonies over an area of several miles. Since the queen of a colony will mate with up to 30 or more drones, odds are against a queen mating with more than 1 or 2 drones from any one colony. Each drone the queen mates with will only have genetic influence on a small percentage of the queen’s offspring. This is a wide but shallow dispersion of genetics. It means that many colonies are influenced by the drones’ genetic material (from any given colony), none to a huge extent.
[lb] Queens are produced in very small numbers. At most, a hive will experience a few swarms and one or two new supercedure queens within a really active season. All successful queens will head up colonies, and all the offspring from each colony will have half the genetic material of their queen. Through rearing queens, bees in a natural system produce a few queens with a very narrow but deep dispersion of genetics. Few colonies are influenced by the queen’s genetic material, but there is a strong influence in each of these colonies.
You must consider genetic influence when thinking about what kind of queens to use in your own apiary. a common beekeeping practice is to graft new queens from your best queen(s). In this way, you end up with a number of queen “daughters” from your best stock.
But grafted queens change the natural genetic dispersion. You now have the genetic influence of one queen spreading both wide (to many colonies) and deep (to all bees in all those colonies) from the queen side alone. Without a good deal of attention to the genetic history of the drones that the sister queens are mating with, such a scheme will very quickly lead to inbreeding. Care should also be exercised when purchasing mated queens. Deal with a queen breeder who is small enough to talk to you personally and be able to assure you of the diversity of their stock.
Grafting can be useful when used judiciously and carefully, but simple line breeding is preferable, as it much more closely resembles what the bees do in nature.
Remember, every time you re-queen with a mated queen from somewhere else, you are replacing the genetics of the hive completely. Always consider this when re-queening. Do you really want to replace the genetics of that hive, or do you want to build on them?"
"Queens raised by you, or another small beekeeper you know, can be excellent. These queens might be grafted, produced with a “graftless” system (which forces the queen to lay in specially designed plastic cells for easy handling), raised from queen cells found by the beekeeper, or by any number of methods whereby the queen is removed and “emergency queen cells” are raised by the bees.
One caution is that queens raised in an emergency queen or grafting situation must be raised with abundant resources. This means plenty of pollen, plenty of honey, and abundant nurse bees. If you (or the person you are getting the queen from) aren’t proactive in these regards, queens may very well be substandard. Nutrition is just as important as genetics for a great queen, and should not be left to chance.
Emergency queens will be open mated, and the genetic makeup of their offspring will likely be influenced by other bees in the area, be they ferals living in the wild, large commercial apiaries or anything in between.
Queens may of course be raised as part of making splits, or any time maturing queen cells are found (for swarming or superseding). Just remember that if the bees are making queen cells, they probably have a reason. Take some measures to relieve the urge to swarm, or let them supersede.
(d) Small Breeder
The small breeder is someone likely to have a reputation in your area for producing queens, and may or may not ship them. It’s rare that someone with a limited production and good queens will have to advertise to sell out their supply.
Since a breeder with a good reputation isn’t likely to neglect any of the obvious nutritional and nursing needs of raising queens, the questions you must ask revolve around genetics.
The first question to ask is where the breeding stock comes from. Ideally you will find someone who breeds from their own stock that they maintain themselves, only judiciously bringing in small amounts of new genetics at any one time.
Some smaller breeders simply purchase “breeder queens” from other breeders. Usually these breeder queens are artificially inseminated (which controls the variables that otherwise would be determined by uncontrolled outmating), and they are expensive (hundreds of dollars each).
When the breeder grafts from these “breeder queens”, he or she is producing queens with a predetermined genetic makeup. The queen that you would purchase will be mated with whatever drones are in the vicinity of the breeder, and hopefully some effort has been made to supply an overabundance of desirable drones.
The value of such queens really depends on the source of the breeder queen mother, and the source of the drones the daughter queens mate with. a good breeder will have satisfying answers to questions about their stock regarding origin, breeding, etc.
(d) Commercial breeder
Larger breeders often advertise in beekeeping journals. The resources required to produce hundreds of queens a week are staggering. Each queen requires her own small hive (mating nuc), crowded with worker bees, to inhabit while she is maturing and mating. The best breeders will leave the queen in the mating nuc for long enough to prove her ability to lay and that the resulting workers are healthy. That means that a mating nuc, once established, can only produce 1 mated queen a month. In most of the U.S., the number of months when queens can be raised is limited.
There are some shortcuts that can be taken, and often queens are sold before the brood emerges. You can be sure that suppliers that provide packages and queens to the bulk of beginning beekeepers are not “proving” each queen before she ships out.
In a survey done by the Barnstable County Beekeepers Association on Cape Cod, about 10% of packages had “drone layers” (queens that are not properly mated or inbred can lay drones and not workers), and 25% produced spotty (incomplete) brood patterns. Just under 50% had full brood patterns in 6 weeks. This is the nature of package bees, and not the fault of the beekeepers.
With this in mind, we recommend that if you start with package bees, you find a local, quality queen breeder to re-queen with before the end of your first season. Queens provided by large package producers are bound to be substandard."
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...also, one of the handy things about bee breeding is that inbreeding becomes apparent first as an abundance of diploid drones, which present to the beekeeper as "spotty brood"....which, no matter the cause, is a symptom that will cause the beekeeper to take action (requeening will help many issues that cause spotty brood, either by "upgrading genetics", replacing a drone layer, or simply by providing a break in the brood cycle).
diploid drones are not always caused by inbreeding...they are a function of and individual "worker" having identical sex determination genes (there are somewhere on the order of 18 different ones). bees don't have to be closely related to have the same sex determination gene, but inbreeding will lead to this situation.
drones are _not_ caused by being "unfertilized haploid clones", they are caused by not having more than one sex determination gene (being haploid, they only have one such gene, not two, so there cannot be 2 different ones...this is what differentiates "male" from "female" in bees).
...this is all to say that one is unlikely to have subtle or mysterious symptoms of inbreeding, it is a problem that would be addressed by the beekeeper before this point.
deknow
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deknow,
Thank you for the efforts and acknowledgment on queen breeding in and around the apiary.
Two things...
1) You do realize you state that virgin queens was not factor in drones hanging out in hives (if I read your comments correctly on post 20) but you present information (from a book?) that is contrary to that opinion.
2) I do not agree that the first indication of inbreeding is a spotty pattern of diploid drones, as indicated in your last post. Inbreeding can cause diploid drones. But the first indication of inbreeding is the spotty egg pattern as a result of the nurse bees removing the inbred (diploid eggs) eggs after detecting them. Because of this situation where the bees may be removing 10-20% or some other percentage of eggs, you get a spotty pattern if the queen does not go back and lay eggs in the cleaned out cells. But this spotty pattern is of worker brood, void of the diploid eggs (or any drones) after being removed by nurse bees.
If you see a spotty pattern of only drones, you usually have a situation of a bad queen laying infertile eggs, which may have nothing to do with inbreeding.
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deknow,
Thank you for the efforts and acknowledgment on queen breeding in and around the apiary.
Without trying to be overly confrontational, I'll point out that all of that "acknowledgment" is from a book that my wife and I wrote, and has been in print since May...it is also consistent with everything I've posted on this and other forums over the last number of years. ...so thank you for agreeing with us :evil: ...but really, before you go on a rant about all the bad information in books (and all the other comments directed at me in the rant about books in post #12 which I will decline to characterize), you might consider that the person you are directing your comments at actually agreed with everything except for one "fact" you preseneted, and _has_ written a book that is a little different from what you think is in "all the books". We only wrote a book on the condition that we could write it from our perspective....there is no need for another of the standard "beekeeping recipe book", and it wouldn't have been worth our time to write one. We wrote the book we wished was available to us when we started beekeeping.
1) You do realize you state that virgin queens was not factor in drones hanging out in hives (if I read your comments correctly on post 20) but you present information (froma book?) that is contrary to that statement.
Sorry if I was unclear in post 20....the study i was citing was on presumably queenright colonies. In this particular study, the presence of virgin queens was not a factor. I also believe (based on my own observations) that colonies with virgins often have a huge number of drones, even if there were not so many present a few days before.
2) I do not agree that the first indication of inbreeding is a spotty pattern of diploid drones,
as indicated in your last post.
No, what I said was that
inbreeding becomes apparent first as an abundance of diploid drones, which present to the beekeeper as "spotty brood"
...what is happening is that the queen is laying an abundance of diploid drones. What the beekeeper sees is a spotty brood pattern.
Inbreeding can cause diploid drones. But the first indication of inbreeding is the spotty egg pattern as a result of the nurse bees removing the inbred (diploid eggs) eggs after detecting them.
Everything I've read says that the eggs are not removed, but the brood is within hours of hatching. I assume some of these reports are based on observation, but others are based on actually developing methods of raising diploid drones (a method that relied on diploid drone eggs hatching in a colony would fail miserably if eggs were removed by workers before hatching):
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.59.5772%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&rct=j&q=diploid%20drones%20small&ei=pzO6TLCnBcGonAeN1I29DQ&usg=AFQjCNH2b4L7cJJaaLBVvUXJNNnLNEwVLw&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.59.5772%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&rct=j&q=diploid%20drones%20small&ei=pzO6TLCnBcGonAeN1I29DQ&usg=AFQjCNH2b4L7cJJaaLBVvUXJNNnLNEwVLw&cad=rja)
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apidologie/34-5/04.pdf (http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apidologie/34-5/04.pdf)
Because of this situation where the bees may be removing 10-20% or some other percentage of eggs, you get a spotty pattern if the queen does not go back and lay eggs in the cleaned out cells. But this spotty pattern is of worker brood, void of the diploid eggs (or any drones) after being removed by nurse bees.
Yes, I agree with all of this (except that I think it's young larvae, not eggs that are removed).
If you see a spotty pattern of only drones, you usually have a situation of a bad queen laying infertile eggs, which may have nothing to do with inbreeding.
...or a laying worker (a _really_ bad queen).
deknow
{edited to fix some typos...added a "not" and changed "days" to "hours"}
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http://jerzy_woyke.users.sggw.pl/1963_rearviabdipldr.pdf (http://jerzy_woyke.users.sggw.pl/1963_rearviabdipldr.pdf)
Work on larvae from 'lethal' eggs of inbred honeybee queens (Apis mełli/era) has
been eontinued. It was shown (1962) that of the eggs laid in worker eelIs by sibling-mated
queens produeing brood of low survival rate, a11hateh, but 50% of the larvae disappear
from the eelIs within a few hours of hatehing.
[
...later in the paper, the claim is that in a colony, most diploid drone larvae are removed 9 hours after hatching.
deknow
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I read in ABJ about 2 years ago it is not uncommon to find drones up to 35 miles away from the parent hive in a hive raising a raising a queen(s) :? as this a fact or a myth :?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Ok, we can disagree on this point.
I do think bees in a otherwise normal functioning hive, can detect inbred eggs sooner than waiting for them to further develop and waste resources. Many sites state the nurse bees detect and clean out "embryos" such as this one.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/dorian_nov07.html (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/dorian_nov07.html)
Something tells me with all the amazing things bees do, and from what I can observe myself, that bees do clean out inbred eggs. To think they need to wait for a certain stage of development seems a bit wasteful in nature's scheme of things.
Just for the record, I assume the one thing you disagree with is the queen recognizing her own drones. Is this correct?
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http://jerzy_woyke.users.sggw.pl/1963_rearviabdipldr.pdf (http://jerzy_woyke.users.sggw.pl/1963_rearviabdipldr.pdf)
Work on larvae from 'lethal' eggs of inbred honeybee queens (Apis mełli/era) has
been eontinued. It was shown (1962) that of the eggs laid in worker eelIs by sibling-mated
queens produeing brood of low survival rate, a11hateh, but 50% of the larvae disappear
from the eelIs within a few hours of hatehing.
[
...later in the paper, the claim is that in a colony, most diploid drone larvae are removed 9 hours after hatching.
deknow
So we are talking removal at day four from the egg laying? Correct? That would be in line with what I am seeing. Well before any beekeeper would know the queen was laying drones. That was why I stated a beekeeper would not see a spotty brood pattern of drones (you would not recognize them as drones), but rather a spotty pattern of egg laying.
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I read in ABJ about 2 years ago it is not uncommon to find drones up to 35 miles away from the parent hive in a hive raising a raising a queen(s) :? as this a fact or a myth :?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I never read anything like that. :idunno:
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Maybe 35 miles after a tornado. How far can a drone fly without eating? Look at where he gets his food.
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I do think bees in a otherwise normal functioning hive, can detect inbred eggs sooner than waiting for them to further develop and waste resources. Many sites state the nurse bees detect and clean out "embryos" such as this one.
...i love Dave's site, but I think it's a stretch to assume that "embryo" means "egg" and not "larvae"...it's also a stretch to call this web article as "evidence". Now, if you have observed this (actually observed diploid eggs being removed prior to hatching, or carefully timed when an egg was layed vs. when it was observed to be missing), I'd consider that real "evidence"...but an assumption based on what you think bees will do falls short of evidence.
Something tells me with all the amazing things bees do, and from what I can observe myself, that bees do clean out inbred eggs. To think they need to wait for a certain stage of development seems a bit wasteful in nature's scheme of things.
...9 hour old larvae aren't much investment for bees, not much (except for comb real estate) is expended (eggs aren't fed, and 9 hours of feeding the smallest and least needy of larvae isn't much).
Just for the record, I assume the one thing you disagree with is the queen recognizing her own drones. Is this correct?
...the two related statements I pointed out in reply #1.
a queen can determine her own drones in the mating process.
...which you mean she can recognize her drone offspring? I don't know if she can or not.
and you followed (in the same post) with:
It has already been established that a queen recognizes her own drones and will reject her drones for mating.
...which I've never heard claimed before.
deknow
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* Drones congregate in hives that are raising queens. They are allowed a free pass and are invited into the hives.
Maybe 35 miles after a tornado. How far can a drone fly without eating? Look at where he gets his food.
By going from hive to hive to hive and buming their food. :evil:
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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They are the disciples of the bee world. Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep. :-D
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For those that are interested in this subject, there are 2 talks from the 1st Organic Beekeeping Conference in Oracle, AZ (2008) that are relevant (and they are both really great talks):
http://beeuntoothers.com/2008organicconference.html (http://beeuntoothers.com/2008organicconference.html)
Randy Quinn Video
Randy speaks soberly of the effect that selecting for a few traits and requeening colonies en-mass with these hybrids from closely mated lines has had on the diversity of the gene pool (both from the selection on the breeding end, and in the introduction of homogenous hybrid stock into apiaries). He promotes an old (and almost never talked about) practice of requeening by making a split to ward off swarming (making sure eggs, honey and brood are present within the split). Simply wait two months, and recombine the two colonies. In most cases, you will end up with a new queen (and in those that you don’t, you are likely better off with the old one).
Kerstin Ebbersen Video
Kerstin reminds us of what we all know…that no matter where our queens come from, there is an unbroken lineage going back millions of years from queen mother to queen mother. There is no way to maintain genetic diversity if we rear (and introduce) thousands of queens from one mother, especially if they are not open mated. A queen can “father” many brood via it’s drones, but only mother a small number of queens at a time. This is protection against inbreeding as it allows successful genes to spread widely, but not too densely, as in open mating the queen will mate with up to 30 or more drones among whom there is bound to be a diversity of genes.
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Very interesting and enjoyable reading guys.
I have so many questions. Would greatly appreciate recommendations of which books to start with.
What can beekeepers raising their own queens do to prevent inbreeding?
So far I've gathered that breeding a lot of queens from a few queens saturates the gene pool in the yard for next year. Open mating is the most desirable.
How often is it necessary to bring in new queens to maintain diversity?
If beekeepers are maintaining distinct lines of bees, how often is it necessary to cross them back to the wider gene pool? If you're doing open mating is this necessary at all?
Is it possible to develop a local breed with distinct traits by matrilineal selection?
In the wild, bee colonies move by swarming, which would bring them into the range of a new selection of drones, little by little. I wonder how important this is for the natural methods of avoiding inbreeding.
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Would greatly appreciate recommendations of which books to start with.
The long excerpts I posted earlier are from "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping"...if that's along the lines of what you are looking for, then I'd recommend it.
Also, you really should watch the videos I posted above. Kirsten is the top bee scientist in Sweden, her thesis (and her talk) is about breeding bees for sustainability, and I've never heard another talk like it. Randy Quinn has tons of experience as a beekeeper and queen breeder (doing the actual fieldwork for some large breeding programs). His insights (sometimes nearly tearful) are heartfelt, and come from a wealth of experience that few beekeepers of any size can claim.
What can beekeepers raising their own queens do to prevent inbreeding?
So far I've gathered that breeding a lot of queens from a few queens saturates the gene pool in the yard for next year. Open mating is the most desirable.
How often is it necessary to bring in new queens to maintain diversity?
If beekeepers are maintaining distinct lines of bees, how often is it necessary to cross them back to the wider gene pool? If you're doing open mating is this necessary at all?
Is it possible to develop a local breed with distinct traits by matrilineal selection?
In the wild, bee colonies move by swarming, which would bring them into the range of a new selection of drones, little by little. I wonder how important this is for the natural methods of avoiding inbreeding.
I'll preempt Michael Bush's inevitable answer to your above questions:
It depends.
...but don't forget that inbreeding is very obvious if you inspect brood regularly (which you should be doing if you are evaluating queens), so although you want to try and avoid inbreeding, it is something you will be aware of if it happens, and even if you misdiagnose the cause of the symptoms (spotty brood pattern), you are likely to correct the problem by any action you would take to address whatever you think the cause is.
deknow
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Thanks Deknow for the RandyQuinn videos etc.
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curious read..
mr bush writes:
I am always interested in hearing peoples observations. I prefer they be classified as "their observations" as opposed to known "facts". I certainly don't believe everything that the researchers say, the books say or other beekeepers observe, but I like to organize those things and compare them to my observations.
tecumseh:
vert well stated mr bush. and I will add....in almost all occasion the context of the situation has a lot to do with the observation. so what might be 'a fact' in one situation is 'in fact' incorrect when the context changes.
it is always a pleasure to read anything by my childhood beekeeping hero Jay Miller.
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Just wanted to say thanks deknow, those videos are very interesting. Also found the videos of Dee Lusby's operation (google video?) very interesting.
I got The Complete Idiots Guide To Beekeeping from the library. Nice book, treatment free emphasis is impressive, it's a bit more general than what I was after.
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One of the problems in giving beekeeping advice is that we beekeepers tend to give advice based on our system of beekeeping. In other words the advice, by our experience, works in our system of beekeeping. The problem is that this assumes that it will work just as well out of that context and in the context of someone else's system. Sometimes it does. But often it does not. Then there is the context of the time of year, the stage of buildup of the colony, the flow or lack of it, all of which change the outcomes.
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I read in ABJ about 2 years ago it is not uncommon to find drones up to 35 miles away from the parent hive in a hive raising a raising a queen(s) :? as this a fact or a myth :?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I dont doubt that the 35 miles or farther from a drones mother colony is truth. This also would help explain how AHB could move so fast on its way north from south america. Flying five miles a day staying as a guest sure makes it possible. This trait would also explain why a colony would benifit from raising as many drones as possible when resources allow. The more prosperous a colony the more widespread its genetics would be.
Just a thought I wanted to share.
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DEKNOW
Thanks also for the link to videos of good beekeeping discussion.
In the first video discussion with Randy quinn it is mentioned that the Italians may have developed the bee we now call Italians from AHB. Is this just speculation or is there some actual fact that goes along with this idea? If anyone knows of an article or any published info on this subject please post it. A long time ago I mentioned in a thread that it seemed very strange that AHB have moved so rapidly on this side of the globe and not on the other side. I myself think that Apis mellifera adansonii must have had influence outside of the continent of Africa on their side of the globe in decades past and in present. You cant tell me they do not arive via cargo ships and other means of transport in italy and other areas. That said their has to be an explanation for how fast they spread and dominated south america and south-north america. Climate must be the main factor? Randy also stated something about switching (or something to that affect) to the dark bee to help solve the ahb hybridization problem. I sure wish he would have elaborated on that subject more.
And last but not least as the discussion of beekeepers whether they be an author of a book, be a scientist, a queen breeder or what have you, when they discuss their opinions they belive as fact, back them up with theory, observation, rationale, math or whatever they belive proves their belief, I belive Thomas Jefferson sums it up best:
"The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory"
Thomas Jefferson
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bee nut writes:
In the first video discussion with Randy quinn it is mentioned that the Italians may have developed the bee we now call Italians from AHB. Is this just speculation or is there some actual fact that goes along with this idea?
... That said their has to be an explanation for how fast they spread and dominated south america and south-north america. Climate must be the main factor?
tecumseh:
not that long ago we though (speculated) that the origin of the european honey bee was from the SE Asian area (that is where the greatest variety of social insect reside). with the bee genome project we now know that the european bee originated from Africa (likely in three waves).
how fast a species spreads is somewhat determine by the niche it moves into. thus the saying 'mother nature hates a vacume'.
michael bush writes:
One of the problems in giving beekeeping advice is that we beekeepers tend to give advice based on our system of beekeeping.
tecumseh:
and quite often times based only on one geographical location. beekeeping is beekeeping, but it ain't always the same (my experience says it is never exactly the same) from location to location.
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I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time ;)
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I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time ;)
TWT .............
A worker bee fly at about 12 miles per hr.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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I want one of those Queen Bee Trackers. I want to know how far my Queens go. :roll: :roll:
I agree with MB 100%. Location, season, conditions, etc.
What I read in any book is not fact to me. What I can see and touch may be. If there are no Magicians around. ;) :)
I had a good Thanksgiving.don2/doak
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I want one of those Queen Bee Trackers. I want to know how far my Queens go. :roll: :roll:
Is there an app for that for my phone?
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I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time ;)
Although I've never seen it, there are credible reports of queens breeding right in the yard. 500' or so.
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a few things that you should know about queens mating...
* a queen can determine her own drones in the mating process.
If so can't the drones determine their own hive mates?
She has been programmed over the eons to fly out to the nearest DCA, and mate with the drones available.
Hasn't she really been programed to fly pastthe nearest DCA and then mate with the drones available?
..... they can recognize bees from their own colony. But they have no clue that they are all cousins from the same grandmother. So the queen flies out and mates with drones from these ten hives. She knows which drones came from her hive. That has been proven in studies. But what she does not know is that she is mating with drones from 9 hives with son's from her identical sister's hives.
To be 'identical sisters' they would have to have the same queen mother and the same single drone father.
Very unlikely.
We all assume that inbreeding happens when the queen mates with her own drones. And that can happen in drastic situations.
Surely you're not suggesting that an unmated queen lays some drone eggs, waits for them to hatch, then flies to the nearest DCA where they would most likey be to finally mate?
And some suggest the queen sometimes just gets overwhelmed.
Her brother hive mates ? are so overcome with lust that they can't tell the virgin is their sister?
Why then wouldn't drones try to mate iin the hive with a virgin?
I have never known a mated queen that starts to lay to evermate again, nor have I ever heard anyone else claim that they do,. So a queen would never mate with her own offspring.
Artificially inseminating queens is to produce breeder queens, not production queens, so the daughters would be open mated with multible drones and therefore have vast diversity in the hives.
Unless a beekeeper marks each drone indentifying which hive it was born in they have no clue that any of the drones are even from their own apiary.
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I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time ;)
Although I've never seen it, there are credible reports of queens breeding right in the yard. 500' or so.
I've seen it also. Although there seems to be a many who for some reason keep suggesting that queens fly out past several DCA's to mate. I guess we can chalk that up to urban legend and repeated book filler. Certainly not anything an observant beekeeper would actually experience as if this was a golden cast in stone certainty.
I have searched extensively for the portion about queens knowing about their own drones. (For WPG - lets make it clear that that means drones from the SAME colony) and have found nothing. As I stated earlier, if I come across anything, I will post it. I have also talked to three entomologists I respect very much (None from Pennsylvania :roll: ) and all state that they have never heard of anything about queens knowing her own drones. (Again, for WPG...that means from her own colony) So maybe I read something late at night and was wrong, or was reading a paper with many sources and read some bad worded comments. I don't know.
As for WPG,
Lets talk your comments one at a time.... lets talk identical sisters....
If I graft 10 queens from the same comb of eggs, all laying next to each other, what is your guess that each would be the same? Are you suggesting that all 10 would be not identical sisters due to what? All sperm being different? Or are you adding in the genetic makeup of the queens eggs also prior to fertilization? Yes, it would be a stretch, but my loose play in wording should be taking for the message behind the wording and perhaps not so much as something to be nitpicked. The comments were in regards to inbreeding, which has less to do with being identical, and lots to do with "like" genetic material, or the pitfalls associated with having like genetic material and less genetic diversity.
If your questioning my comments, I would like to know with what data and experience you are putting on the table. Making statements into questions like "Hasn't she really been programmed to fly past the nearest DCA...." does not cut it. Are you implying your ignorance on the matter and asking a honest question or are you making a statement with wiggle room later? I state that she is not programmed to fly past DCA's. The normal and natural makeup of colonies would allow a variation of genetic material to be available. It is when we saturate or overload this natural setting, do we have problems. I think some are seeing what makes sense to think queens must do in regards to how we keep bees, and what bees do in the natural world, where the next colony may be 1/2 mile away and so on.
I suggest, that having identical sisters is not that far fetched. One of the suggested advantages of a/I is that the beekeeper "blends" all the semen. But does the queen do that? Or have you ever seen a queen lay all dark bees for awhile, then change over to another color, and so on. I know I have.
Without proper record keeping and DNA verification, I guess we will never know. The spirit behind my comments was that ten installed packages or ten queen all grafted off the same comb, may see genetics close enough to consider inbreeding a problem when we have unnatural circumstances of high numbers of colonies in one area, and possibly from the same breeder or grafted frame. Your cousin may not be identical either, but with your thought process, mating with cousins is fine and dandy and I guess in your world, the best breeding program you can achieve.
As for the rest, You make claims of word play while saying "Surely your not suggesting" which usually translates into pure jabbing for argument sake, or lack of comprehension of what was being stated.
You seem to focus on your understanding of my comments in regards to thinking I stated that virgin queens lay drones, wait for them to hatch and then go out and mate with her own drones. I'll pass on the needless debate and senseless crap, and realize that for most others, they understood I was suggesting that I meant a virgin and the drones from the very colony that she came from. I guess some may be too intellectual for commonsense to be apparent.
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I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time ;)
TWT .............
a worker bee fly at about 12 miles per hr.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Ok, Jim.....curiousity killed the cat. I've thought about this long enough.
What does the worker flying 12 miles an hour have to do with queen mating? :-D
BTW, How does that compare to the drone and queen?
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I am not a bee expert or a queen rearing guy but I have to say that I think evolution would would favor preventing inbreeding not by programing the queen to fly great distance which would have many disadvantages, but for drones to do all the leg work by traveling all over the place as guests where ever they show up. It only make sense. Queens that fly 6 miles would be at greater risk to predators, weather hazards, and a lot of wasted time for one mating flight. If you were a queen, why would you fly past a local drone congregation area that has drones that may be from 35 miles or farther to accomplish the same thing by risking your life and wasting your short mating window flying across the county.
To me the answer to this whole question is why did evolution allow drones to be guests everywhere?
To minimize mating risks, and inbreeding? Seems logical to me!
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I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time ;)
TWT .............
a worker bee fly at about 12 miles per hr.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Ok, Jim.....curiousity killed the cat. I've thought about this long enough.
What does the worker flying 12 miles an hour have to do with queen mating? :-D
BTW, How does that compare to the drone and queen?
BjornBee....
Do you know how fasts a queen or drone can fly ???
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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.... I have also talked to three entomologists I respect very much (None from Pennsylvania :roll: ) and all state that they have never heard of anything about queens knowing her own drones. (Again, for WPG...that means from her own colony).
Hi BB,
If you knew there is no info about queens recognizing their hive-mate drones why did you state in your thread-starting post that it was a fact?
I don't really need a response from you.
I was just trying to point out that others were misunderstanding whatever it was you were trying to put out.
I didn't pick on each and every blanket statement you made and you didn't respond to all of mine. No problem.
There are always exceptions to the rule. Some people think the exceptions are the rule.
You obviously have vast experience and the time now to type away.
I don't have that much extra time to waste on 'endless debate and senseless crap'
as you say, but you do make yourself an easy target, and I like to poke a bully in the nose once in awhile.
Too many newbees on here for everyone to be able to pick the clean kernels of knowledge from the debris.
I most likely will stick to threads without as much chaff as yours, so good-bye and have fun, hope I haven't been too mean.
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I will have to agree with BjornBee about the queen's recognizing drones from her colony. I read the information in one of the bee magazines about 3 years ago. I can't remember if it was in one of the issues that have the research papers condensed or if it was in one of the articles by the Traynors. If bees recognize and show a preferance for larvae from their own colony when making emergency emergency queen cells, why should they not recognize their own drones?
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I will have to agree with BjornBee about the queen's recognizing drones from her colony. I read the information in one of the bee magazines about 3 years ago. I can't remember if it was in one of the issues that have the research papers condensed or if it was in one of the articles by the Traynors. If bees recognize and show a preferance for larvae from their own colony when making emergency emergency queen cells, why should they not recognize their own drones?
Oh boy.....just when some would call me a liar or think I was making the whole thing up. :roll:
I thought I read it somewhere. But can not find anything sitting around, although I have not paged through years of bee magazines. Just when I was going to call it a dead issue, now someone else recalls reading such information. I surely hope your not yankin my chain. ;) I could of sworn I read something about it, but starting doubting myself. Now I'll have to look a little harder.
Hmmm.....hopefully someone will find something.
Thanks AR beekeeper.
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It is difficult to speak fast enough to keep up with ones thoughts sometimes, but typing is excruciating when there is so much to discuss.
No one is calling you a liar BB.
Past your prime-maybe.
Forgot more than the rest of us will ever hope to learn-most likely.
Confused-yep. :-D
We do agree that drones go where they want, when they want, and no bee challenges them. Right? They are even fed & coddled, until the fall of course.
So the bees don't even care where they came from, let alone try to recognise them, because it doesn't matter to them.
If a drone happens to come back to the same hive 2 days in a row it may pick up the hive scent enough to smell like it is at its 'home hive' but that's all.
If you trapped and marked each drone as they hatched in each hive before they left the first time one could tell if a drone is actually 'home'.
Say just 5 hives in a separate apiary. Each hive marked with a different queen marking pen. Did this for a few weeks, killing any outside unmarked drones. Then doing the drone comb varroa control technique, and letting everything go free flight.
How long would it take for 'foriegn drones' to move in?
Has anyone actually done this?
Please tell us the results.
Of course, to be 'believed' it would have to be a controlled scientific, peer reviewed, accepted, published study that we could look up ourselves.
Might be fun to try anyway sometime.
But anyway it doesn't matter if the drones that were in the hive when the queen hatched out are recognised by her on her mating flight. The odds that one of them is in the part of the DCA she is when she mates is slim.
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I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time ;)
TWT .............
a worker bee fly at about 12 miles per hr.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Ok, Jim.....curiousity killed the cat. I've thought about this long enough.
What does the worker flying 12 miles an hour have to do with queen mating? :-D
BTW, How does that compare to the drone and queen?
BjornBee....
Do you know how fasts a queen or drone can fly ???
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Actually, without looking it up, No...I have no clue.
I was trying to make it easy on myself and was hoping you knew... ;)
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I read a similar study perhaps.
The gist of it was that when a new queen was needed the 'sisters' of each sub-family had a preference for their 'sister' sub-family eggs. So each faction would raise their own queen cell. The stronger sub-family might even add wax to other queen cells so theirs would hatch first.
Now if there are no viable larva they will all jump right on that frame of fresh larva or eggs you stick in with no problem.
Now there can be numerous sub-families because the sperm from each drone is not in seperate pouches that the queen empties one at a time. Each days hatch can have multible drone fathers.
The hive still works together for the betterment of the whole.
They know when there is no queen, get real desperate, but relax when you put a totaly strange new queen in. They will start bringing pollen in again before she is even released and laying eggs.
They are fascinating.
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I was talking to my good friend Dwight Porter the other day, he said he seen a couple times this year a queen leave the hive on her mating flight and return between 15-20 minutes, she would need a jet pack on her to fligh 6 miles in that amount of time ;)
TWT .............
a worker bee fly at about 12 miles per hr.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Ok, Jim.....curiousity killed the cat. I've thought about this long enough.
What does the worker flying 12 miles an hour have to do with queen mating? :-D
BTW, How does that compare to the drone and queen?
BjornBee....
Do you know how fasts a queen or drone can fly ???
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Actually, without looking it up, No...I have no clue.
I was trying to make it easy on myself and was hoping you knew... ;)
LOL
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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I will have to agree with BjornBee about the queen's recognizing drones from her colony. I read the information in one of the bee magazines about 3 years ago. I can't remember if it was in one of the issues that have the research papers condensed or if it was in one of the articles by the Traynors. If bees recognize and show a preferance for larvae from their own colony when making emergency emergency queen cells, why should they not recognize their own drones?
I know this is an old thread but I too remember reading that article you and BB are talking about. I wish I saw this thread earlier so I could have helped in finding out who the author was that wrote the article while this thread was still active.
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I will have to agree with BjornBee about the queen's recognizing drones from her colony. I read the information in one of the bee magazines about 3 years ago. I can't remember if it was in one of the issues that have the research papers condensed or if it was in one of the articles by the Traynors. If bees recognize and show a preferance for larvae from their own colony when making emergency emergency queen cells, why should they not recognize their own drones?
If you can get "Bee Sex Essentials" by Lawrence John Connor the read Pg.97-100 it will help you a lot .It is about virgin queens and her brothers.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Jim,
For the sake of 5,000 readers....can you actually post a quote or what material you are referencing?
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BjornBee
Do you have this book ???
First edition First printing
Pg. 98 Par 2
"Bee Sex Essentials" by Lawrence John Connor
III The mating process
Pg. 95 to 114
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BjornBee
Do you have this book ???
http://wicwas.com/index.html (http://wicwas.com/index.html)
"Bee Sex Essentials" by Lawrence John Connor
First edition First printing
Pg. 98 Par 2
queen travels about a mile or more to for mating
drones about 0.16 mile
This minimizes inbreeding
III The mating process
Pg. 95 to 114
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Here's a link to the book for anyone interested:
http://www.amazon.com/Bee-Sex-Essentials-Larry-Connor/dp/B00144HLYY (http://www.amazon.com/Bee-Sex-Essentials-Larry-Connor/dp/B00144HLYY)
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BjornBee
Do you have this book ???
http://wicwas.com/index.html (http://wicwas.com/index.html)
"Bee Sex Essentials" by Lawrence John Connor
First edition First printing
Pg. 98 Par 2
queen travels about a mile or more to for mating
drones about 0.16 mile
This minimizes inbreeding
III The mating process
Pg. 95 to 114
No I don't.
Can you please also add the research or study that makes this comment that drones only fly about two tenths of a mile. I have never seen such numbers before.
As a side note, I do not always believe what I read or hear. I attended a workshop by Larry Connor at the 2009 HAS convention, and twice, it was stated that queens NEVER leave the hive for mating except between the hours of Noon and 3 pm. I have seen queens leaving prior to that. I asked about the "concrete" statement and it was once again repeated.
This conversation came about while doing a hive inspection of a hive and the queen could not be found. The time was approximately 11:30 in the morning. Larry asked for beekeepers to take a guess as to the hives situation that could make finding a queen not doable. After someone said it was probably queenless, I added that perhaps a second look later in the day or the next day would be a good thing, since maybe the queen had left on a mating flight. Larry said at 11:30 there could be no way for this to happen since queens ONLY left between between Noon and 3 pm.
Sure...... :roll:
Anyhow.....your mentioning one set of facts or details, that neither adds, subtracts, or supports the original comments. What distance a queen or a drone flies, means little in questioning whether a queen can detect a drone from her own colony.
I, as well as many others, have seen queens mate less distances that what some of these books suggest that a queen automatically flies or some set in concrete statement.
I take breeder queens from one yard and move this breeder to another grouping of yards for grafting and breeding. That way as a breeder, I know for sure that regardless of how far a drone flies, or a queen flies, she is not mating with her own genetics. Seems to work rather well. I feel better doing this than relying on some concrete statements made in books, many times shown to be wrong by careful observations and real world applications.
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As a side note, I do not always believe what I read or hear.
from here, it seems that much (if not most) of the discussion on this thread stems from statements you made in the first post that started the thread:
a few things that you should know about queens mating...
* a queen can determine her own drones in the mating process.
* Bees can actually identify an inbreed egg once laid.
The second statement I believe that we have agreed (by comparing published studies and your observations) is false...the larvae must "hatch" before diploid drones are identified by the bees.
Now, the first statement (above)...if you really believed this to be true, you would have no reason to do what you describe (below):
I take breeder queens from one yard and move this breeder to another grouping of yards for grafting and breeding. That way as a breeder, I know for sure that regardless of how far a drone flies, or a queen flies, she is not mating with her own genetics. Seems to work rather well.
But, the kicker seems to be your final statement in your last post:
I feel better doing this than relying on some concrete statements made in books, many times shown to be wrong by careful observations and real world applications.
I can't help but point out that the "concrete statement" in question (queens determining what drones to mate with) was made by you, never substantiated (the reference AR Beekeeper made was to workers identifying larvae in a colony, not queens recognizing drones "on the wing"). Clearly, you never really believed this (otherwise, you would not bother to move colonies for mating).
I guess I just don't see the point of 'laying down facts' that you don't actually believe, then, 4 pages later talking as if you never believed what you read anyways.
deknow
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I guess I just don't see the point....
Good for you. You must feel special.
Right on cue, a holier than thou book writer comes to the defense of another, by attacking my comments, with nonsense, personal interpretation, and statements claiming to know what I think, believe and know. What pure nonsense.
My last comment was making a point that just because someone puts it in a book (like yours... :roll: ) that it can not be taken as gospel.
To compare that too statements and dialog on an open forum and the efforts that others put forth in allowing questions and debate to take place, is not comparable to holding up a book and assuming because it is in print, that everything thing is known, true, or without fault.
It funny how you don't attack my methods of queen breeding, to which I am open and honest, but rather attack some poor rationale that you know what I believe or not, based on trying to fit all my pieces into your puzzle box, which you do a poor job.
I always am amused when someone suggests that because a manufacturer (like checkmite and the claims that the product does not harm bees) a book writer (That anything published is not worthy of debate) or some pompous beekeepers (who does not understand the nature of a forum) gets all upset protecting their turf when someone comes along and states what they experience is far different than those making the original claims to begin with. Crawl outside your box for just a bit. there is a whole other world outside the academia circle you certainly confine yourself.
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Right on cue, a holier than thou book writer comes to the defense of another, by attacking my comments, with nonsense, personal interpretation, and statements claiming to know what I think, believe and know. What pure nonsense.
I'm not aware that i was/am coming to anyone's defense.
I have no idea what you think, believe, or know....i only know what you write here.
My last comment was making a point that just because someone puts it in a book (like yours... :roll: ) that it can not be taken as gospel.
I agree with that statement 100%.
My reading of this thread is that you get upset when someone questions "facts" you present, even when they are not based on your own observations, and you have no idea where you read the facts.
To compare that too statements and dialog on an open forum and the efforts that others put forth in allowing questions and debate to take place, is not comparable to holding up a book and assuming because it is in print, that everything thing is known, true, or without fault.
errr....from my reading, you left no room for anyone to disagree with the statements you made in your first post:
Hopefullt you understand that inbreeding many times in NOT from a queen mating with her own drones. It has already been established that a queen recognizes her own drones and will reject her drones for mating.
and when I (politely) questioned the source, you responded with:
I have already stated I do not have the material at hand. this fact, does not cloud my own experiences, knowledge of what I read, or the information at hand. If I run across it, then i will post it.
...again, not too much room left by you for disagreement.
...followed by:
Something tells me with all the amazing things bees do, and from what I can observe myself, that bees do clean out inbred eggs. To think they need to wait for a certain stage of development seems a bit wasteful in nature's scheme of things.
...which, you followed (when confronted with actual data) with:
So we are talking removal at day four from the egg laying? Correct? That would be in line with what I am seeing.
at best, this shows a sloppy account of your own observations....first you claim that you have observed bees cleaning out inbred eggs, then modify your observations by including 1 day old larvae.
this isn't some casual comments taken out of context bjorn...this is all under "A few things you should know about queen mating" all the while claiming that you know better than anyone else.
It funny how you don't attack my methods of queen breeding, to which I am open and honest, but rather attack some poor rationale that you know what I believe or not, based on trying to fit all my pieces into your puzzle box, which you do a poor job.
I don't "attack" your queen breeding practices because what I know of them appears to be sound. What you offer in this thread are a set of facts about queen mating, not a method. It is worth noting that what you offer in the way of your method (moving queens to new yards for mating) protects you against the possibility that the fact you present (about queens choosing their mates) isn't true.
I always am amused when someone suggests that because a manufacturer (like checkmite and the claims that the product does not harm bees) a book writer (That anything published is not worthy of debate) or some pompous beekeepers (who does not understand the nature of a forum) gets all upset protecting their turf when someone comes along and states what they experience is far different than those making the original claims to begin with. Crawl outside your box for just a bit. there is a whole other world outside the academia circle you certainly confine yourself.
I must be stupid....I don't understand what Checkmite has to do with anything we have been discussing, I don't believe that anything is unworthy of debate, I _think_ I understand "the nature of a forum, I don't know what "turf" I "hold" or why/how I should "protect" it, I don't disbelieve any of your observations, and I'm not aware of being part of any "academia circle".
deknow
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Now.....for those that actually want to know why I do what I do, here is some information.
I use breeders from one yard (or cluster setting) and move a queen from another apiary (or cluster of yards) due to the impossible lack of controlling every aspect of genetics as some may so easily suggest is possible as seen in some bee books, and advice from those that write books, but yet do not practice half of what they try to teach to others.
It's easy to understand.
My mating yards are set up in "clusters".
All the genetics from a particular line of bees in any yard are not confined to just the bees in the managed hives. Last years swarms, located in the surrounding area, as well as the genetic material spread by the drones of those yards, and all in the immediate area make up the genetic matter in any given area. I am not just trying to keep bees from the same hive from mating, but I am also trying to keep bees from the same lines from mating.
In doing this the best I know how, it makes sense if a breeder is brought in from another cluster of line of bees, so not only are the daughters being raised not breeding from drones from the same hive, but more importantly, they are not mating with the same genetic line as sometimes sits in the same yard (or in the area via swarms, etc.)
So whether a queen can sense a drone from her own colony or not, it makes not one difference. I don't want the new queens being mated with genetics of the same line, whether from the same queen, sister hives, or from the same genetic line.
Sure, drone saturation with a different line, helps. But that just means your playing the best odds. To be assured of the highest genetic diversity and to guarantee your queens will not mate with drone from the same line, (Other like genetic hives in the same apiary), then bringing in a breeder queen from another cluster of hives is the BEST management task you can do.
And THAT...is doing what produces the BEST queens.
To be clear...
If you have a breeding yard with one genetic line, surrounded by drone support yards with another line, (And this is what is suggested in books and not much more) you might get good queens. But swarms and the blending of these lines will lessen your quality over the years. And certainly it's not always as clear cut as some books suggest when your keeping more than one hive and mating more than one queen.
If you have a mating yard with one line of bees, and they are surrounded by drone support yards, then the best possible scenario is to bring in a queen from another yard in your operation, thus leaving nothing to chance, and you control or eliminate inbreeding and other issues more effectively.
It's not that hard to understand why I do what I do if some actual thought goes into it.
You can do what some suggest and get good queens. But I'm sure some writing books, perhaps would do things differently from what they write, if their livelyhood was dependant on queens, and not selling books. :-D
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My reading of this thread is that you get upset when someone questions "facts" you present, even when they are not based on your own observations, and you have no idea where you read the facts.
How do you figure?
I spoke of something I read to be true. (And a few others also read)
I also said I could not find the article. I was up front, and stated what I read. And I think if you actually went back and read the entire comments, this has been rehashed a number of times. But I get it...you need to pound your chest and belittle a point to death.
I really don't even know why I am responding to this. Nothing will make you happy. I am trying to help others like the last post from me, and you just continue to thrust your "superior" attitude over others I guess you feel threatened from.
Oh well..... :roll:
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For the record deknow....I'm more than happy not responding to your posts. It works rather well.
I find that two people who take this approach, can still add their input, if they strictly keep the comments to personal experience and what they did, what they know, and keep the direct rebuttals out of it.
It seems as if every forum has a few that will just constantly butt heads. On Beesource, it was a guy named "Honeyhouse". Here, you just seem to rub me wrong. Nothing wrong with that I suppose. It just happens on a forum.
I'll ignore you, and I guess I'm asking the same from you.
I know some others will probably see this as a good thing also.
Cheers. ;)
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As a side note, I do not always believe what I read or hear. I attended a workshop by Larry Connor at the 2009 HAS convention, and twice, it was stated that queens NEVER leave the hive for mating except between the hours of Noon and 3 pm. I have seen queens leaving prior to that. I asked about the "concrete" statement and it was once again repeated.
This conversation came about while doing a hive inspection of a hive and the queen could not be found. The time was approximately 11:30 in the morning. Larry asked for beekeepers to take a guess as to the hives situation that could make finding a queen not doable. After someone said it was probably queenless, I added that perhaps a second look later in the day or the next day would be a good thing, since maybe the queen had left on a mating flight. Larry said at 11:30 there could be no way for this to happen since queens ONLY left between between Noon and 3 pm.
Sure...... :roll:
In the book "Bee Sex Essntials" it say Queen mating flight are between 1 PM and 4PM standard time and the time changing seasonally accrding to photoperiod,weather,climate,subspecies and flight activity the prior day.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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But early in the day you can see short cleaning and orientation flights and not mating flights around the hive area.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Larry said at 11:30 there could be no way for this to happen since queens ONLY left between between Noon and 3 pm.
I've met Larry a few times, have signed copies of his books, and have great respect for his knowledge, but that wasn't a very bright statement. Do bees observe Daylight Savings Time? Are they aware that some states span different time zones? Bees are too unpredictable to make dogmatic statements about their behavior.
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Larry said at 11:30 there could be no way for this to happen since queens ONLY left between between Noon and 3 pm.
I've met Larry a few times, have signed copies of his books, and have great respect for his knowledge, but that wasn't a very bright statement. Do bees observe Daylight Savings Time? Are they aware that some states span different time zones? Bees are too unpredictable to make dogmatic statements about their behavior.
>In the book "Bee Sex Essntials" it say Queen mating flight are between 1 PM and 4PM standard time and the time changing seasonally accrding to photoperiod,weather,climate,subspecies and flight activity the prior day.<
To me standard time is local time and bees follow the angle of the sun to the angle of the earth
(Not the clock)
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Standard time means NOT daylight savings time. If you are on Daylight savings time adjust by adding one hour.
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:imsorry:
To me standard time is local time
This is from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_time)
<Standard time is the result of synchronizing clocks in different geographical locations within a time zone to the same time rather than using the local meridian as in local mean time or solar time. The time so set has come to be defined in terms of offsets from Universal Time. (See more about standard time.)
Where daylight saving time is used, the term standard time typically refers to the time without daylight saving time.>
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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In the book "Bee Sex Essntials" it say Queen mating flight are between 1 PM and 4PM standard time and the time changing seasonally accrding to photoperiod,weather,climate,subspecies and flight activity the prior day.
They need to use UTC like us amateur radio operators! :-D
...DOUG
KD4MOJ
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Im still looking for where the bees have placed the clock in the hive. Ive already replaced the batteries in their smoke detector. Danged chirping was driving me crazeeee
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In the book "Bee Sex Essntials" it say Queen mating flight are between 1 PM and 4PM standard time and the time changing seasonally accrding to photoperiod,weather,climate,subspecies and flight activity the prior day.
They need to use UTC like us amateur radio operators! :-D
...DOUG
KD4MOJ
May bee you need more like solar time
Im still looking for where the bees have placed the clock in the hive. Ive already replaced the batteries in their smoke detector. Danged chirping was driving me crazeeee
May bee more like a sundial in front of the hives no batteries need :lau: :lau:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_time)
How to Set up a Sundial in a Garden
http://www.ehow.com/how_4444078_set-up-sundial-garden.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_4444078_set-up-sundial-garden.html)
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)