Author Topic: Starter strip comb (Read 12606 times)

Cindi · « **on:** September 29, 2007, 11:37:05 pm »

Finally got a picture of the starter strip comb. Pierco plastic foundation cut out with a strip left at the top. The bees didn't get too far on it. Maybe should have put it between two brood frames, like Michael had said to do. Hmmm...living, learning, listening, have a wonderful day, beautiful life. Cindi

Understudy · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2007, 11:38:19 pm »

That looks pretty good to me.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

rdy-b · « **Reply #2 on:** September 30, 2007, 01:59:47 am »

now you can measure the cell size. nobody is posting any info about cell size in the different parts of the country. you have got the natural comb to start with.around here even with the feral rescues and cut outs we dont seam to get smaller than 5.0. I always search for the 4.9 but think the bees do it a little bit different as to cell size depending on where in the world you are :? I was reading something about that in a( beekeepers diary ) By ALLEN DICK ever read that web site? much knowledge to be shared RDY-B

alfred · « **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2007, 10:34:29 am »

I guess that I don't understand the advantages of this method. It seems that the unsupported comb would be much more fragile and therefore mor dificult to work with?

Alfred

Cindi · « **Reply #4 on:** September 30, 2007, 11:12:00 am »

Alfred, this was only an experiment with about 6 frames in my 9 colonies. I wanted to see what natural comb would be like when it is drawn on an empty frame with only a starter strip. Yes, it is fragile, I almost dropped out a frame of honey that was built in the starter strip, it was almost attached along the sides and bottom and was slipping, but I managed to get the frame vertical and it held in place. Evidently when the comb gets older it is stronger.

Personally, I am not going to continue to use starter strip, it was an experiment, like I said. I will use foundation in the frames. Strong combs, no chance of the comb to ever fall off the frame. Personal preference. You will hear of many other forum members that love the natural built comb in the empty frame, but it is not for me. Have a wonderful day, best of this beautiful life we live. Cindi

DayValleyDahlias · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2007, 12:25:07 pm »

Cindi, good day...what type of frames/foundation do you use??

Cindi · « **Reply #6 on:** September 30, 2007, 12:38:43 pm »

Sharon, I like the wooden frames with the wax foundation. That is what I originally began with in my beekeeping, always had beautiful comb drawn. Last year I decided to try the plastic Pierco frames. I have had many problems with the bees not liking to work on the plastic, drawing really weird funny comb and so on. I don't like it. I have so much plastic frames that have not been touched by the bees.

I was going to give all these plastic foundation away, and revert back to wooden, but before I do that I am going to try to put some beeswax on them to see if the bees will work them, which they probably will, but time will be the teller of that tale.

Any further frames I will need to purchase will be wooden/wax foundation. Time, tried and true. Hope that answers your question, Sharon, have a wonderful day, best of our beautiful life. Cindi

Kathyp · « **Reply #7 on:** September 30, 2007, 12:42:55 pm »

alfred,

this was my concern also. i tried some this year in by brood boxes and honey super.

the comb they built in the brood boxes filled the frames and was very strong. i found no difference in handling or incidental damage between the wired foundation, and what they built. some people express concern about durability over the long term. it has been recommended to me that foundation be rotated out periodically. i am not concerned about durability past 2 or 3 years.

unfortunately, i did not get any honey this year. my purpose in using strips in the honey supers was to produce clean comb honey. i do not know if the unwired comb would stand up well to mechanical extraction. someone else could answer that. it would certainly be great for crush and strain.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #8 on:** September 30, 2007, 01:16:55 pm »

>no chance of the comb to ever fall off the frame.

Maybe if you use plastic...

Cindi · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2007, 05:50:14 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush on September 30, 2007, 01:16:55 pm

>no chance of the comb to ever fall off the frame.

Maybe if you use plastic...

Michael, nope, missed your point and don't know what you are meaning :) Have a wonderful and great day. Cindi

Old Timer · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2007, 06:18:14 pm »

Quote from: rdy-b on September 30, 2007, 01:59:47 am

now you can measure the cell size. nobody is posting any info about cell size in the different parts of the country. you have got the natural comb to start with.around here even with the feral rescues and cut outs we dont seam to get smaller than 5.0. I always search for the 4.9 but think the bees do it a little bit different as to cell size depending on where in the world you are :? I was reading something about that in a( beekeepers diary ) By ALLEN DICK ever read that web site? much knowledge to be shared RDY-B

you can measure cell size anytime you have a tape measure and are insepting your hives.
imo, cell size is more dependent on the strain of bee and not where you are. if i take an italian, russian, and nwc, and have them all here at my house, they will not draw a certain size of cell just because they are in my yard. they will draw the cell based on how they see fit and for what purpose they want it for, just as they would do on the other side of the world.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2007, 10:55:42 pm »

>Michael, nope, missed your point and don't know what you are meaning

The point is any wax comb (foundation or not, wired or not) can sag, fall, break or otherwise collapse. Plastic foundation is about the only insurance that it won't.

Brand new comb is very soft. Hot brand new comb full of new honey is VERY overstressed. This is true even with wax foundation.

As far as them finishing the comb, the bees don't finish a comb they start because the flow gave out and they didn't need the comb. At least not where it was.

rdy-b · « **Reply #12 on:** October 02, 2007, 11:55:23 pm »

OLD TIMER there seams to be a relationship with- where your location is and the cell size- that is the small end of the spectrum for natural cell building( things that work well for bees in some areas do not work well for them in other areas). yes i understand what you are driving at- when you speak of the propensity of different races of bees. but i would like to hear from the list and see if we can do some detective work of our own. there is a lot of natural comb being opened up with the removals we all are so fond of doing. lets see what we can do. cindi what is the cell size of the first round of comb you are showing us? dose it corollate to the map by the way this map is undisputed as being the most accurate and is from impeccable source ;)

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/genetica/261_tamano_celdas_panal.pdf RDY-B

rdy-b · « **Reply #13 on:** October 02, 2007, 11:57:04 pm »

http://beesource.com/pov/lusby/therm_map.htm :-D

TwT · « **Reply #14 on:** October 03, 2007, 12:08:11 am »

I have tried starter strips last year, dont really see a need for it except for comb honey, I will use wired foundation any chance I can..... I did the SC starter strip last year on a few frames in a couple hives to see what they would draw out, they drew the SC strips out fine but everything below the strips was bigger, ranged from 5.1-5.3 in size on adverage, some cells were huge and different sizes so I didn't mesure, and this was every frame I tried. yup this was my first try but it was just to see, I dont use small cell, fatbeeman gave a few sheets he made to cut for the strips.......these were all put in brood chamber, most all frmes was atached and strong but some were from top to bottom and side to side but they didnt' attach to the bottom or sides and it would want to fall out when filled with brood, just had to watch how you held it......

rdy-b · « **Reply #15 on:** October 03, 2007, 12:42:06 am »

I know what you mean TWT it is a tough road to hoe for a lot of us- thats why i think the comb from the cutouts would be a better sound board for various areas- just a crazy notion.hope we can see if there is any merit to it. RDY-B

Michael Bush · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2007, 07:52:39 am »

Dee Lusby has been collecting measurements from all over the world and mapping them. She says it runs from largest near the poles and smaller near the equator. But I agree that the variance in size within the same hive for different purposes is often greater than the average size difference based on latitude.

Cindi · « **Reply #17 on:** October 03, 2007, 09:58:55 am »

RDY-B. OK,OK, OK. You have finally caught my interest. I actually had no interest in measuring cell size and that was that. But...just for the fun of it, I'll give it a whirl. I have several different natural combs hanging around that I have collected. I am not sure how to measure, but I will figure that one out pretty quick, not sure if I can get around to it today.

We have had days of rain, and I mean big rain and wind, horrible weather. I was going out to feed the bees yesterday, there was a bit of a break in the rain and I got all ready, 9 gallons of sugar syrup in my wheelbarrow, headed out to the bees, and the skies opened up and rained like there was no tomorrow. Oh brother, suddenly, I really didn't feel like going out there anymore :roll:

I was told by both my bee instructors in response to an e-mail that I sent them that we should this year be treating our colonies with Fumagilan-B for nosema. Last year here we did not. But with all the fears of the CCD and possibility of it coming to Canada, they are advising to treat, which I am ready to do. 5 grams mixed in 4 litres of water.

I woke up early this morning (up early regardless, but was up really early), I think it is a change in the barometric pressure (I do love the clearing skies). I went outside to observe the night air and it was crisp, the humidity was not there, you know, the rain causes the air to be very damp feeling :). Nope, clear and crip, no stars, but I am sure the sun will be shinin' later on, yeah!!!!! Have a wonderful day, best of our beautiful life. Cindi

Cindi · « **Reply #18 on:** October 03, 2007, 10:05:38 am »

Read, learn and listen, ooops!!!! I just read some of the site that you linked to RDY-B and I see how to measure the cells, it looks pretty simple and now I feel that it would be an adventurous thing to do. Checking it out later on today. Best of this beautiful day, Cindi

Old Timer · « **Reply #19 on:** October 03, 2007, 03:30:18 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush on October 03, 2007, 07:52:39 am

Dee Lusby has been collecting measurements from all over the world and mapping them. She says it runs from largest near the poles and smaller near the equator. But I agree that the variance in size within the same hive for different purposes is often greater than the average size difference based on latitude.

mb, do you think that the bigger cells makes bigger bees so the bees can generate more heat by flexing their bigger wing muscles while in a cluster? i can see where the bigger bees in colder climates might have a better chance of winter survival. maybe in these colder areas it wouldn't be a good idea to use small cell foundation.

Cindi · « **Reply #20 on:** October 03, 2007, 06:30:43 pm »

Quote from: Old Timer on October 03, 2007, 03:30:18 pm

Quote from: Michael Bush on October 03, 2007, 07:52:39 am
Dee Lusby has been collecting measurements from all over the world and mapping them. She says it runs from largest near the poles and smaller near the equator. But I agree that the variance in size within the same hive for different purposes is often greater than the average size difference based on latitude.

mb, do you think that the bigger cells makes bigger bees so the bees can generate more heat by flexing their bigger wing muscles while in a cluster? i can see where the bigger bees in colder climates might have a better chance of winter survival. maybe in these colder areas it wouldn't be a good idea to use small cell foundation.

Old Timer. Now that is certainly an interesting theory, wow. You have opened an entire new thought process in my own mind, thinking, thinking, wondering. Can't wait to hear some other opinions/theories!!!! :) :) :) Have a wonderful day, best of a great life. Cindi

Michael Bush · « **Reply #21 on:** October 03, 2007, 07:37:11 pm »

>mb, do you think that the bigger cells makes bigger bees so the bees can generate more heat by flexing their bigger wing muscles while in a cluster?

As far as I have read smaller bees have the same size wing muscles which is probably why I see them flying in 40 mph winds when the large cell bees never would.

> i can see where the bigger bees in colder climates might have a better chance of winter survival. maybe in these colder areas it wouldn't be a good idea to use small cell foundation.

I'm in a cold climate. I think the small cell bees winter better or the same. Certainly not worse. But then not having Varroa and tracheal mite problems leads to much better wintering.

Old Timer · « **Reply #22 on:** October 03, 2007, 07:46:38 pm »

did dee lusby come up with a hypothesis as to why they would draw larger cells closer to the poles?

rdy-b · « **Reply #23 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:05:43 pm »

Cindi what do you do with the water and-did you mean .5 or 5 grams (5 grams makes about 100 gallon of syrup ) when mixed in. any way i know what you mean (i think :) ) RDY-B

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #24 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:18:54 pm »

Personally I think the bees draw different sizes of comb depending on need and location within the hive. The worker brood area will/should have the smallest cell size. Drone comb can very in size = depth & width and result in a large size difference between the adult drones within the same hive. Storage comb can range from worker brood to cells that look like barrels in relation to the majority of the comb. I've seen storage comb with twice the surface area of a "normal" drone cell. This is usually most apparent in burr or bridge comb that is used primarily as storage comb.

When regressing bees to SC using strips or foundationless the first year comb will be erratic in size with the most eratic being drawn 1st and then more uniform comb size coming later--with the exception of the noted 3 sizes of comb. 2nd year comb should be managed so that the bees build their new (smaller cell) comb in the brood area with the older comb moved up or out of the brood area to be used as storage comb. After the 3rd year you should have about 4 medium boxes of worker brood on small cell and all other comb will then be storage comb.

To answer Cindi's question: I personally think that smaller overall comb in the tropics and larger sized comb towards the poles has to do with servivability--a larger cell makes for more insulation for the ajoining cells. The colder the climate the more insulation (larger cell) is required. This may explain Finski's atitude about small cell.

Cindi · « **Reply #25 on:** October 04, 2007, 01:16:05 am »

RDY-B. Sorry. Some confusion here, probably on my part about the use of Fumagilan-B.

The ratio is 2:1 sugar syrup mixture.

In the fall feeding: I will quote from the instructions given, if there are typos, please pardon :):

"Description: Fumagilan-B is a water soluable preparation containing the antibiotic Bicyclohexylammonium Fumagillin, equivalent to 21 mg Fumagillin base per gram of powder.

Fumagilin-B has a high specific action against Nosema apis, a microsopic, single-celled parasite which causes Nosema disease in honeybees. It acts on the multiplying, disease producing parasite in the gut and is not effective against the spores. To eradicate the continuing supply of parasites, Fumaglin-B must be provided over a period of several weeks.

DIRECTIONS: Medicated syrup is best prepared at a concentration of 25 mg Fumagillan base per lite of syrup, usually a 2:1 syrup (two parts of sugar to one part of water). Fumagilin-B may be dissolved in water or syrup at room temperature. For best results, heat the required amount of water to 35-50 degrees Celsius, then remove the heat source and add the Fumagilan-B and the sugar in that order

The prepare this concentration of medicated syrup, use the following chart:

165 ltr water 330 kg sugar 380 ltre syrup 454 g fumagilan-b
35 lt water 69 kg sugar 80 ltre syrup 96 g fumagilan-b
8.7 lt water 17 kg sugar 20 ltre syrup 24 g fumagilan-b
1.8 lt water 3.8 kg sugar 4 ltre syrup 5 g fumagilan-b (this is what I use for each of my own colonies)

Good agitation is essential to assure uniform distribution of the medicament

For the protection of wintering colonies, medicated syrup is best fed in the fall, if it is fed once per year. There may be advantages to feeding medicated syrup in the fall and in the spring.

DOSAGE. All treatment. After all honey supers have been removed, feed medicated syrup at the following rate:

7-8 litres for each 2 chamber colony (approx 30,000 bees)
4 litres for each 1 chamber colony (approximately 18,000 bees)
3 litres for each 5 frame colony (approximately 12,000 bees)

Feed additional unmedicated syrup to desired colony weight for wintering.

Whew, that was alot of typing, the instructions are probably written in a 9 font!!!!!

I really hope that I have cleared up a little bit of confusion. Have this wonderful day in the palm of your hands!!! Good health. Cindi

Michael Bush · « **Reply #26 on:** October 04, 2007, 08:19:12 am »

>did dee lusby come up with a hypothesis as to why they would draw larger cells closer to the poles?

No. She just made the observation. Of course the difference is pretty slight compared to the difference between 5.4mm standard foundation and 4.9mm small cell foundation. 4.9mm is naturally found all the way from North to South to some extent where 5.4mm worker comb is not.

rdy-b · « **Reply #27 on:** October 04, 2007, 10:44:51 pm »

so you are using 25 mg per liter 5 grams sounded like a lot- but my first figure of 100-gal would take 9.5 grams and .5 grams makes 5 gallon dont know much about liters and such ( you are using .5 grams arent you) i went through this when i treated so the recommended amount i came up with is from a supply catalog (i guess thats cheating :lol: )any way your bees well be strong. RDY-B

Cindi · « **Reply #28 on:** October 05, 2007, 09:51:21 am »

Quote from: rdy-b on October 04, 2007, 10:44:51 pm

so you are using 25 mg per liter 5 grams sounded like a lot- but my first figure of 100-gal would take 9.5 grams and .5 grams makes 5 gallon dont know much about liters and such ( you are using .5 grams arent you) i went through this when i treated so the recommended amount i came up with is from a supply catalog (i guess thats cheating :lol: )any way your bees well be strong. RDY-B

RDY-B, oh brother, now you have me second guessing what the instructions mean. I am putting these instructions below my post again, only the amount part. It says that 25 grams of Fumagilan, base per litre of 2:1 syrup. But Fumagilan-b is a concentrated form of the antibiotic Fumagilan, so not as much is required. If you still read some kind of different dosage than what I am reading, continue on with this talk.

The instructions indicated "5 grams" per 4 ltres, not .5 grams. I don't think I am reading the instructions incorrectly. Randy, I wonder what form of Fumagilan the supply catalogue was using. Maybe it is not the same identical product to what I have, maybe the amount of antibiotic used is different. I don't know. But I definitely read that 5 grams is to be used, not the .5 grams that you indicate :roll: :) Instructions can be difficult to follow, I know I do have issues with instructions many times.

4 litre is almost 1 gallon, it is really exactly 3.8 litres to a gallon.

I have measured 5 grams on my digital scale, it is just over 2 teaspoons.

The following directions are taken directly off the instructions that came with the Fumagilan-B medication.

DIRECTIONS: Medicated syrup is best prepared at a concentration of 25 mg Fumagilan base per lite of syrup, usually a 2:1 syrup (two parts of sugar to one part of water). Fumagilin-B may be dissolved in water or syrup at room temperature. For best results, heat the required amount of water to 35-50 degrees Celsius, then remove the heat source and add the Fumagilan-B and the sugar in that order

The prepare this concentration of medicated syrup, use the following chart:

165 ltr water + 330 kg sugar = 380 ltre syrup (95 gallons) + 454 g fumagilan-b
35 lt water + 69 kg sugar = 80 ltre syrup (20 gallons) + 96 g fumagilan-b
8.7 lt water + 17 kg sugar = 20 ltre syrup (5 gallons) + 24 g fumagilan-b
1.8 lt water + 3.8 kg sugar = 4 ltre syrup (1 gallon) + 5 g fumagilan-b (this is what I use for each of my own colonies)

I hope this has helped to clear up this little discussion we are having. Have a wonderful day, best of this great life we live. Cindi

rdy-b · « **Reply #29 on:** October 05, 2007, 08:22:41 pm »

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page37.html this is the stuff i used :) very strong medication :) RDY-B

Cindi · « **Reply #30 on:** October 06, 2007, 12:19:47 pm »

RDY-B, the product I use is identical to MannLake's. I looked at the bottle, same company, same trade name. I bought the size that makes 20 gallons, I paid $44.50 for this size, I see that MannLake's is $39.00 or so, so after shipping and handling, a minute exchange on the dollar, it is cheaper for me to get it in Canada. Yes, it is powerful stuff. Have a wonderful day, best of this great life we're livin'. Cindi