I need to kill a hive - suggestions please

[JackM]

goof

[JackM]

Many thanks to all for lots of good info.  I will suffocate them.


These are unworkable bees.  I can not open the hive for any reason.  The last time they were opened my host could not go out for two days and if this happens to any neighbors it will be the end of any beekeeping and another chunk of the population will be permanently against bees.  I am used to dealing with feral bees and they are uppity - but this hive is on a whole different level and I can not allow this one to survive.

Old Blue

Cant go near it for days after opening....sure sounds AHB to me.  Not worth the risk to keep it alive in my book, but I am an old cautious fart.

[JWChesnut]

I have settled on screening the entrance, sleeving the hive with a bag and putting a block of dry ice at the entrance and allowing the bag/hive to fill with CO2 and leaving it for a day.

Important I *Don't know* if that will work. The salient fact is CO2 is heavier than atmosphere.  It sinks down.   If you put it at the bottom, it would only rise by diffusion.  You possibly have enough sealing and sublimation to do that.  The practice that works is to put it at the top, and let it fill the hive.  Any leakage speeds the process when the source is at the top.

[Michael Bush]

I would move them immediately.  Then I would requeen them.  Then if they are nice enough, I would move them back... I've never killed any bees... but the best way to kill them and leave the honey eatable and not soapy or ruined, is probably by burning sulfur.

http://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

[JWChesnut]

I would move them immediately. ... I've never killed any bees...

Michael, with all due respect, San Diego, like the whole SouthWest, has Africanized bees. 

The Arizona-based cotton/melon/citrus pollination outfits, put 40 foot trailers in the desert, and these fill up quickly with feral swarms of really aggressive parentage.  Dropped off in California for Almond or Avocado pollination, there are massive clouds of angry bees at mid-night attacking the forklift operators. Everyone wears full isolation gear.  (Source for this description is second hand from my queen breeder. Like me, he has worked bees for decades, and was shocked enough by the situation to tell me about it.  A major market for his queens are local SD Avocado pollinators, who requeen yearly to keep the hives workable without a spacesuit. His queens are mostly Russian, so they are not pansies either.)

Blue was catching feral swarms in San Diego-- he has stumbled into a vicious AHB strain, and the hive has built up to full strength (with its accompanying defensiveness).  They nearly killed him (he passed out at the drug store looking for Benedryl and was revived by the paramedics).   He keeps these bees on suburban gardens.   This situation is not appropriate.  He might market the hive to a commercial outfit, who might leave the honey supers or woodenware behind for him to harvest and reuse.

[Michael Bush]

>Michael, with all due respect, San Diego, like the whole SouthWest, has Africanized bees. 

I assumed that.

> Everyone wears full isolation gear.

I assumed that.

> This situation is not appropriate.

Which is why they should be moved immediately.  Anyone, even not in an AHB area, should have a plan for what to do if they become vicious.  The most vicious bees I've ever seen were some Buckfasts from Texas that overwintered here in Nebraska.  They were the most viscous bees I've seen or can imagine.  I requeened them.  I was tempted to kill them, but I did not.   I've been in hives in the US Virgin Island (all of which are Africanized) and been through hives in Arizona and other AHB areas.  They were much nicer than those Buckfasts.  I understand viscous.  I've seen it.  I've dealt with it.  It's not just in AHB areas.  Every beekeeper should be prepared for this to happen eventually no matter where you are.  An exit plan is much easier to execute if you have planned what you will do.

> They nearly killed him

Reminding us all once again to ALWAYS wear protective gear.  Things can change quickly.

Sufur smoke will not harm the honey and will not make it inedible to bees you put in the hive later and will kill the bees.

[Old Blue]

Cant go near it for days after opening....sure sounds AHB to me.  Not worth the risk to keep it alive in my book, but I am an old cautious fart.
[/quote]

And I'm an old foolish fart.
But now I'm gonna have to change my ways and start makin cautious like  ;)

Old Blue
Preppin up to start makin cautious like.  In.........
Kali-bone-ya

[Old Blue]

Important I *Don't know* if that will work. The salient fact is CO2 is heavier than atmosphere.  It sinks down.   If you put it at the bottom, it would only rise by diffusion.  You possibly have enough sealing and sublimation to do that.  The practice that works is to put it at the top, and let it fill the hive.  Any leakage speeds the process when the source is at the top.
[/quote]

Thanks again JW I am planning on taping the open end of the bag to the stand to force the heavier than air CO2 to first fill the bag before spilling out the top.  I will be putting screen across the entrance and will vent the cover a little less than an 1/8 inch before placing the dry ice in front of the entrance inside the bag.

Old Blue

[Old Blue]

I would move them immediately.  Then I would requeen them.  Then if they are nice enough, I would move them back... I've never killed any bees... but the best way to kill them and leave the honey eatable and not soapy or ruined, is probably by burning sulfur.

http://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

I have no where to move them to and I would not be able to move them without riling them up and that would likely get my host stung up and if neighbors get stung that will be the end of me being able to keep bees.  But you are definitely right that it would be best to move them and requeen.  I just can not in this situation.

By the way, is that your video of "how to requeen a vicious hive" that shows the application of the hive tool test?  If it is, thank you very much for making and sharing it.  It looks like a great way to handle the situation and if I could that would be my preferred course of action. 

And while I got your ear, thanks for teaching me a lot about beekeeping!

Old Blue

[Old Blue]

>Michael, with all due respect, San Diego, like the whole SouthWest, has Africanized bees. 

I assumed that.

> Everyone wears full isolation gear.

I assumed that.

> This situation is not appropriate.

Which is why they should be moved immediately.  Anyone, even not in an AHB area, should have a plan for what to do if they become vicious.  The most vicious bees I've ever seen were some Buckfasts from Texas that overwintered here in Nebraska.  They were the most viscous bees I've seen or can imagine.  I requeened them.  I was tempted to kill them, but I did not.   I've been in hives in the US Virgin Island (all of which are Africanized) and been through hives in Arizona and other AHB areas.  They were much nicer than those Buckfasts.  I understand viscous.  I've seen it.  I've dealt with it.  It's not just in AHB areas.  Every beekeeper should be prepared for this to happen eventually no matter where you are.  An exit plan is much easier to execute if you have planned what you will do.

> They nearly killed him

Reminding us all once again to ALWAYS wear protective gear.  Things can change quickly.

Sufur smoke will not harm the honey and will not make it inedible to bees you put in the hive later and will kill the bees.

Yup I'm all in agreement.
Plan A is to requeen.  (I just cant in this situation)
Plan B is to eliminat them.

I quit wrapping my ankles up a long time ago becuase I never needed to.  With my slightly long beesuit and my hives on ~18 inch high stands it was never and issue.  BUT WHEN I MOVED THIS HIVE box by box I got mobbed, including at my ankles which is where they got me.  That was the epsode when I became sensitized to being stung and there is no going back.  From now on I have to carry the darn EPI pens.

I am still kicking myself because I did not wrap my ankles to move this hive.  And now I will pay for it for the rest of my life.  I have already had to drive home once because I forgot the darn things.  My sensitization was completely preventable, but I blew it and I knew better. 

I have since purchased a pair of gaiters that are par excellance at protecting my ankles and I can not say enough good things about them. (no I'm not affiliated yada yada yada)  Theses things are made to keep chiggers and ticks out of hikers boots and are treated with a bug repellent.  They are quite slick and I couldn't be happier with them. 

If you have any history of becoming sensitized to anything I can not strongly enough recommend that you get bee tight and stay bee tight when working your bees.  You just don't know if you will sensitize to bee stings, but if you do your life will be changed forever.  Plus it's just embarrassing as all hell .

Old Blue

[don2]

I didn't read M Bush's "finding the queen" story till just now. I have enough tops and bottoms to do exactly what he is talking about. I can walk by my hive with out any problem. even work around close to it as long as I am not working on it. The last time I was in it when I closed it up 3 or 4 followed me for about 100 ft out of sight of the hive. My wife is highly allergic to any kind of bee/wasp sting. If she gets stung it is E.R. no doubt. My hot hive is hot only when I go into it, but that is enough for me to want to do something with them. I have been opening up my new hive with out any thing other than a little smoke. Those Carnelian's really like staying on the frames.  The day will come. ;) :) d2

[don2]

I did do it this once. Put an empty box with frames on a bottom board. add an excluder, then an empty box with nothing in it. Add a box of bees on next. Squirt the fume board with Bee-Go, wait about ten or fifteen minutes. check the empty box and repeat as often as needed.
I found the queen about half way through.  :)d2

[Better.to.Bee.than.not]

if they are healthy, ya reuse em. although I'm sort of squeamish about re-using comb from other hives personally...sometimes I think it just creates and shares problems, and not like bees do not know how to make comb as has been said many times over on the forum here. you can just cut it out, sanitize the frames and burn the comb too, I'd say give it to someone else if you didn't want to use it, but once again doing that would mean you wouldn't think it would cause them any problems surely, and if you thought that, you might as well use it yourself, if you can.