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Author Topic: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?  (Read 4189 times)

Offline Candiebears

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Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« on: April 21, 2015, 05:01:21 pm »
I'm going to buy more frames/boxes/foundations.. I'm just wondering if its best to stay with the same foundation I started with. My initial thought would be consistency would be best...

Just wondering!
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Offline mikecva

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2015, 05:31:21 pm »
To some degree it does not matter. Now with that said, there is drone foundation (with large cells), regular and small foundation. If you are asking in regards to type plastic vs. wax, I use plastic as have found it holds up better in the extractor. With cut comb or crush and drain, you will definitely need a wax foundation (either full sheet or a starter sheet.) -Mike
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Offline Candiebears

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2015, 05:39:53 pm »
To some degree it does not matter. Now with that said, there is drone foundation (with large cells), regular and small foundation. If you are asking in regards to type plastic vs. wax, I use plastic as have found it holds up better in the extractor. With cut comb or crush and drain, you will definitely need a wax foundation (either full sheet or a starter sheet.) -Mike

Right now I have the black wax coated foundation. The foundation thing confuses me. They have a crimp and wire foundation. Not exactly sure what that is.
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Offline mikecva

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2015, 06:25:56 pm »
Lets take some confusion out.
Where did you get your black wax coated foundation? Are you going to be using an extractor to get your extra honey? Crimp and wire uses a 'blank' frame, what type of equipment do you have and how much of it?  -Mike
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Offline Candiebears

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2015, 08:35:19 pm »
Brushy mountain. I do not have an extractor.. And cannot currently afford one. http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Assembled-6-1_4-Black-Superframe-ea/productinfo/248B/ that's what I currently have. I have a box with 8 frames right now and another one ready to go
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Offline little john

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 04:33:02 am »
You're still talking 'Warre' hives ?  You might want to consider installing starter strips - that way the bees will build what they want, rather than what the beekeeper wants - it is their home after all. :smile:

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Offline OldMech

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2015, 10:27:31 am »
Over the years, I have collected a lot of different types of foundation, and it has become entangled hopelessly within my hives..  Meaning most hives have a mixture of all types, including small cell in a few. The bees usually draw it out well, but once in a while they will just draw the type of comb they want over top of the cell pattern.. I have the standard cell plastic sheets that are drawn with done cells, and in the same hive a piece of  plastic small cell foundation from Mann lake (PF-120) that they drew out to perfection.  MOST frames are now foundation-less.. Once I stopped listening to the folks who claimed you couldnt extract foundation-less I have gotten along quite well, and had to spend a LOT less money.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline mtnb

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2015, 11:02:19 am »
OldMech, how do you know which frame has which foundation? Do you mark them somehow when you put them in? Just curious...
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Offline Candiebears

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2015, 11:38:57 am »
You're still talking 'Warre' hives ?  You might want to consider installing starter strips - that way the bees will build what they want, rather than what the beekeeper wants - it is their home after all. :smile:

LJ

No I have a Langstroth.
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Offline Candiebears

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2015, 03:21:55 pm »
Does it matter if you mix wood types? ie i have cypress boxes, but would like to go with the pine
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2015, 03:42:45 pm »
Any kind of wood will do.  I have cypress, yellow pine, white pine and cedar. 

Cell size is my issue with foundation.  Otherwise I don't care if it's the same, but you need to understand the bees' preferences to set proper expectations.  They will draw foundationless first while ignoring anything else.  Wax foundation next.  Plastic last and only if there is no where to build on something else.
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Offline don2

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2015, 03:51:22 pm »
As for crush and strain off plastic frames, if there has not been any brood hatched on a frame all you have to do is scrape off the comb down to the plastic.Let the frames sit over night to drain well and put back in the box.  Plastic frames do extract quicker than wax on the extractor I have. d2

Offline OldMech

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2015, 04:00:16 pm »
OldMech, how do you know which frame has which foundation? Do you mark them somehow when you put them in? Just curious...

   the only marks on them will be th edates..   10 for 2010, 11 for 2011 etc..     Otherwise there is no way to ell what hey have for foundation without pulling a frame..  barring of course the PF 120 small cell foundation.. it is on an all plastic frame/foundation combination and pretty easy to tell apart from the wooden frames.. wood with plastic foundation, wood with wax, and wood...  with no foundation at all..
   Needing a couple extra frames one afternoon, I put a couple of new PF 120's in a hive, because that is all I had, na dof course I promptly forgot about doing that, until I pulled the frames on an inspection weeks later.. perfectly drawn..   I have not paid much heed to cell size since then..  Most of my hives are natural cell, meaning they draw their own base don their own desires.  I often buy out beekeepers that have given up, and end up with whatever was their preference for frames and foundation.  If I ever STOP incorporating other hives and equipment it would be only a matter of two or three years to get swapped into my own prefered equipment..  As it stands.. when I "need" a box, or even just a frame I use them..
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Offline Candiebears

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2015, 05:21:07 pm »
Sorry to be asking so many questions! Just curious! MY starter kit came with 2 supers... can I put a hive body on there.? Or do I need to continue with supers?
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 08:57:40 am »
I find having all the same size boxes is best for me.  The bees won't care at all and will do fine in anything.  I run all eight frame mediums.  No deeps.
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Offline Candiebears

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2015, 12:12:34 pm »
I find having all the same size boxes is best for me.  The bees won't care at all and will do fine in anything.  I run all eight frame mediums.  No deeps.
Thank you! I did get the one deep box. We'll see how it goes. I also got extra supers.
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Offline mikecva

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2015, 12:28:43 pm »
Sorry I did not respond sooner. I have not had any problems with anything from Brushy Mtn. Deeps are good for brood. I use mediums for my supers (due to the weight). For no good reason I can remember, I have painted all my brood boxes with various colors (other then brown and black) and my supers are all painted white. Good luck and keep in touch.  -Mike
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Offline pgayle

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2015, 08:52:36 pm »
I have all kinds of foundation and foundationless.  When I buy new foundation I buy small cell and eventually cycle out the old.  Now that I have quit growing my hive numbers, the old comb cycles out faster. I did end up with mediums and shallows and I use both sizes for supers, and the mediums for both brood frames and supers so it gets a little confusing.  I ended up color-coding the mediums and shallows because I kept getting shallow frames into medium boxes.  I paint all my medium boxes yellow and the shallows blue, and when I make new frames I put a swipe of colored paint across the tops of the frames.  So frames with a blue streak go into blue boxes.  Not that it really matters.  The bees will build burr comb on the bottom of the shallows that end up in medium boxes and that works too. 

Offline Candiebears

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2015, 09:58:05 pm »
Thanks everyone! I ended up sticking with the same stuff.. My gals seem to like what I have. I did get a medium box for the future.. Gives them a little extra for brood. 🐝
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Offline Better.to.Bee.than.not

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2015, 02:33:19 pm »
The simple saying of "If it isn't broke don't fix it" always applies imo. ten different beeks may very well do things 10 different ways.

I myself like going foundationless and with a starter strip. Honestly mostly with the starter strip because I ended up getting numerous boxes of deep foundation for free, so I like to use it, but do not feel the need to use a full sheet of it, so put it on a sheering machine and cut it into 1" or so strips. The bees love it fine, and always draw nice straight comb with it and no problems really. Foundationless is ok also but it does sometimes have a problem with them drawing it out irregular or attaching it to its neighbor periodically. still not a major problem but it is what it is.

using all mediums, for the brood box and the honey supers, makes swapping out boxes and dealing with equipment super easy, and Micheal Bush I believe showed me a study that showed multiple mediums tended to do slightly better than two deeps for instance. I still use Deeps for my brood on some hives and haven't had a issue with them at all, but there is no denying that dealing with two box sizes is more of a hassle than being able to swap out all mediums/etc.  I like dealing with mediums a bit more, they are easier to handle imo. I do not use plastic foundation, so cannot compare that.

Offline OldMech

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 02:38:50 pm »
and Micheal Bush I believe showed me a study that showed multiple mediums tended to do slightly better than two deeps for instance.

   I have heard of this study, or one similar to it, but am unable to locate it.  If anyone knows where it is poste let us know please?
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Offline Candiebears

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Re: Foundation... Does it need to stay the same?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2015, 03:14:27 pm »
The simple saying of "If it isn't broke don't fix it" always applies imo. ten different beeks may very well do things 10 different ways.

I myself like going foundationless and with a starter strip. Honestly mostly with the starter strip because I ended up getting numerous boxes of deep foundation for free, so I like to use it, but do not feel the need to use a full sheet of it, so put it on a sheering machine and cut it into 1" or so strips. The bees love it fine, and always draw nice straight comb with it and no problems really. Foundationless is ok also but it does sometimes have a problem with them drawing it out irregular or attaching it to its neighbor periodically. still not a major problem but it is what it is.

using all mediums, for the brood box and the honey supers, makes swapping out boxes and dealing with equipment super easy, and Micheal Bush I believe showed me a study that showed multiple mediums tended to do slightly better than two deeps for instance. I still use Deeps for my brood on some hives and haven't had a issue with them at all, but there is no denying that dealing with two box sizes is more of a hassle than being able to swap out all mediums/etc.  I like dealing with mediums a bit more, they are easier to handle imo. I do not use plastic foundation, so cannot compare that.

Wow! Thank you!!!
Bee patient with me... I just started this March of 2015..

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