Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => HONEYBEE REMOVAL => Topic started by: eddiedlzn on June 14, 2009, 12:03:22 am
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I was wondering if honey bees are protected?
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as for as I know some states say they are and some don't, I think its mostly the people and all the interest with CCD and all the talk about bee's the last few years, I heard people say they were on some states endangered species list but I didn't see any (http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/StateListing.do?state=all), I know a lot of pest control companies don't want to kill hives in homes because it's against the law to kill honey bee's, but I also heard they can kill them if they want to but choose not too. I aint really sure but I tell all I can that it's against the law to kill them, nice if everyone thinks that way, good rumor to start if it's not true....
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I'm with TwT. I've heard rumors that they are in some states, but have not seen the actual laws. I'm sure they are not in most states. Exterminators kill them all the time, which is not only unfortunate for the bees and the planet, but when they are in people's walls it's unfortunate for the home owner.
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Yeah, I don't think so either, I know that they are not here in MI. I just found out that a lot of blueberry farmers around here kill swarms left behind after the pollenators are pulled out...the big beekeepers don't care about a few swarms, and its not a big enough deal for the farmers to spend hours trying to find a beekeeper to get the swarm.
And most homeowners around here have a really really hard time finding beekeepers to chop the bees out of their houses. (I sure don't want to...)
To me, bees are like dogs. Pet dogs are awesome. Wild dogs are bad. Sadly there are situations where dogs need to be killed. We really do have plenty of bees around, its not like they are rare or anything....
Rick
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they should bee with out question
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I have also hear that bees are protected by law. I think it is a rumor, or they are protected unless a pest/threat, or whatever. I kind of wondered, though, who is going to enforce it.
Regardless, I have been pleased that many of our local pest control companies avoid killing them. Several of them have sent numerous swarm calls my way. They have also sent cutouts.
I am new to all aspects of beekeeping, but am obsessed (ask my wife LOL). Cutouts are my weakest are, but I am learning quickly. I am just happy to find that many of our local companies are happy to send all honey bee issues my way, just to avoid killing them. Not all of them, but most.
I vow to do my best to perpetuate the rumor, though. ;)
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"Are honey bees protected by law?"
This question is usually brought up when someone wants a colony destroyed.
It really does not matter if they are protected or not, here's why.
They should never be sprayed. Why?
Because they can turn hostile, or move from an easily accessible area to a more difficult to access area.
Number one reason, the honey, yes, the honey.
It runs you know, leaks and stains interior/exterior surfaces.
This is my philosophy when it comes to removing bees. The void space the colony occupies needs to be accesssed right? So why not remove them live, you have to access the colony anyway.
If you were a bee and I tried to spray you, you're gonna try and get away, which most wind up doing anyway.
When I access the void space the bees are occupying, guess where the bees are going to be?
Right there in front of me, and then I remove them. The bees go to a good place, the bees are happy, I'm happy and the customer is happy and the planet smiles back as well, why?
Cause bees are good for the planet, besides they're pretty darn cute, don't ya think?
...JP
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on topic: honey bees cannot actually be endangered in the united states - they're not indigenous.
off topic: joker, I looked up Lt. Col. Grossman because your quote intrigued me. I found an article titled "on sheep, sheepdogs[,] and wolves. - it's a perfect analogy.
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Bee Happy, Yes, that is a great analogy. I think Grossman was quoting someone else there, but Grossman is an extremely intelligent and amazing man IMO. If you ever have the opportunity to hear him speak, or read any of his books, I would recommend you do so. Great insight into our current domestic security levels, and mindset for nation's approach to it.
Back to the Bees; All of these points, regarding the killing/not killing of our bees, are great. In our area, it seems, people are migrating toward the attitude of protection. I am new to the fullblown obsession, so I don't know if the attitude is new, or not.
Since, I have been squirming deeper and deeper into captures/cutouts I am surprised at how open to the idea people are. I expected to find more resistance. I hope the local trend continues.
I am generally opposed to more government intervention. I think, since this is my opinion, that the responsibility for educating rests on my shoulders. I am kind of glad that the Honey Bee isn't on a list, at this point. WE need to educate more people, and protect the Bee. Hopefully, if we do our job, the Bee will never "need" the G intervention, and we can continue to adore/enjoy the intriguing little buggers. :-D
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:thunder:
Firstly accept my apology for straying off topic I never would have thought that I had so much to say about bees. I'd like to start with my first experience with honey bees as I believe it will be of interest to many of the professionals one of which I am not.
The year was 1976 and I was four, and I am suddenly struck with a longing for a simpler time, sighh...! Not in school yet, I would spend my days catching bees in the clover in the front yard. Every day I would catch a few in a jar, with air holes in the top, full of clover, and every morning they would be dead. I couldn't figure out why as they had flowers, air, and water. like I said, I was four. So, as four year olds are not known for their keen awareness of time, I could not say exactly how long this went on, despite the memory remaining very fresh. After several days, weeks, I don't recall, I'm assuming the proper bee messengers having gone through the proper bee channels of bee communication had notified the proper bee officials. Having been told of the problem of the disappearing workers, they then mobilized the hive militia. Playing in the clover with my jar, I noticed the buzzing of the "Happy little bees", had grown unusually loud. Looking up from my "work", I was astounded to see, that the sky was black with the presence, of the united hive air force. So I calmly proceeded to run screaming for my mommy as four year olds will often do. To my utter horrification, my younger sister of two, had decided to play with the deadbolt that very morning. My mother so happened was vacuuming in the other room. Looking over my shoulder, I noticed, the now not so happy little bees, were still hanging out. Filling the sky, and buzzing menacingly about. Now completely panic stricken, I began to flail wildly at the door, kicking and screaming, just a little louder, than I ever had before. After what seemed an eternity, this caught the attention of my mother, and I was let in, to safety.The End (see next post for moral)
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:thunder:Are honey bees protected by law?
As my lengthy style of writing has exhausted the resources of the provided posting box I am posting the moral to the above story here.
Moral is as follows : I was never stung ; So then, assuming that the collective bee chemical consciousness, or whatever, had the deductive reasoning capability, to recognize me as a human in the larval state. Coupled with the compassion to spare me, whether chemical or not, despite the fact that I had killed many of there workers, do we not with our " obviously superior intellect " , at least owe them the same courtesy.
Are they protected, if so , not nearly enough. Should they be protected now there 's the no brainer that makes me angry!" So very angry ! "to quote a famous cosmonaut. If " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few " and we can all agree on breathing oxygen, why then has such rudimentary legislation not already been passed.
Perhaps because it does not promote the interests of the sentient beings who unfalteringly posses our devoted politicians in Washington D.C., I. E. The pharmaceutical , Insurance , Oil , and I suppose now we should add the medical and corrections corporations. I fear that the world' s greatest capitalist institution has finally sold it's soul for just a little more profit. God save America because no one else seems to care.
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:shock:
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I'm pretty sure they ARE NOT protected here in FL. Just today as my wife and I left work for a lunch break we passed a parked truck on the side of the road that had a big sign on the door that read "BEE KILLER". I recognized the company right off the bat....google bee removal in Florida and their name is the first to pop up. Anyway, I backed up to talk to the guy and could smell the chems from at least 100' away. When I asked if he though he ALWAYS had to kill the bees he said (in a heavy latin accent) " They have much disease they need it" I asked him if he has ever kept bees and he said no.
I tell you, it was all I could do to hold my wife (Peggy) back from wringing this guy's neck. I've already set up a meeting with our local bee inspector to see if I can't at least reduce this guy's client base somehow. I know that there's little I can do about his practices for now, but I'll certainly raise a voice in opposition!
Scott
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Hardwood, you have a problem in Florida that is hard to combat. Jerry Hayes recommends killing them all and not saving any feral colonies, not even unknown source swarms. Until you get him relieved of his vocation, you don't stand a chance.
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I think honey bees should be respected...but laws against killing hives? That is silly. Just got a call from guy who has some in his house and doesn't want them there. Whether they get sprayed or I try to save them...the hive is dead.
Bees are still big swarms of bugs. I love them. But they aren't sacred or anything any more than any bug, bird, or animal. There is a place for everything, and plenty of places bees shouldn't. If there were millions of happy beekeepers willing to jump at every pia cutout, then we could protect them. But I'm not willing to, and neither are the 100's of beeks in my area, apparently.
I agree that society in general is still far too squiemish and scared of them and tends to go the kill route too often, though.
Dogs are awesome too, but there are plenty of dogs that need the receiving end of a 9mm slug (or a happy sleepy shot if available for the less aggresive).
I'm surprised anybody has a Latin accent. How could you tell? I thought Latin is a dead language and hasn't been spoken for many years??? :? :-D
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:thunder:
Oh yes, of course, silly me, laws to protect bees, what could I possibly bee thinking. Perhaps you have a better method of protecting bees in mind. Maybe we could arm them all individually with minaturized Gloch nines. Oh yeah, but that would get you shot! Well , ummm, maybe we could put them all in little bubbles, but that would prevent them from pollenating the planet, and the world would become a giant dust ball devoid of oxygen and life. Well perhaps we could set up bee preserves to protect them in certain areas then maybe only half the world would go dead, you can have that half! No, I can't see a better way, and mind you, I don't propose that anyone should ever be jailed for killing bees but rather that fines be imposed of such weight as to annihilate repeat offenders.
I have just spent the last two years working maintenance for a borderline slum lord, and would you believe, the poor bastard, only clears about 40,000 a month. Maybe 43,000 since he won' t have to pay me anymore. The point is I, was sent three or four times, in two years, to kill active hives in his buildings. Only once did I do so, and only because I was ill equipped to remove them safely, and deemed them a real threat to the tenant because of the number of bees gaining entry to the apartment. The other times I simply refused. I have a friend of a friend who' s brother runs a removal service, and each time I would decline to attack a hive, inside a wall, usually on a latter by myself, with a can of fogger, hmph the nerve of me. I would include the number of the bee remover on the incomplete work order. But they'll always bee a kiss ass, and he killed five hives, in two years, to save a few dollars, he won't notice anyway, because he's too cheap to spend it. But I'm sure his mother would bee proud, I' m just not sure about his grand children, but his son's are young, so maybe they'll run out of oxygen before he ever has any. This is a very serious matter and since the bees help produce the oxygen and we only breathe it, perhaps it is they who should bee spraying us !!!
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:-D
Huh Huh ... I spelled ladder wrong. Huh Huh...
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I removed some hornets from under a lady's deck a few weeks ago with spray, knocked it down and tore it apart. The Lady and boyfriend went on there deck and were putting up the umbrella on the table when the hornets came buzzing through the cracks in the boards and stung both of them. She told me how bad it hurt when she got stung on the finger and it would not let go. He told me the hornet grabbed onto the hair on his arm and stung him and could not believe how difficult it was to get it off him. She called me because she thought they might be honey bees and that maybe they should be saved. I had a look and they were hornets in a paper hive. I assured her that they were a wasp, that they were plenty to go around and the world would not miss them. I explained that they eat other insects to feed there young and even eat out honey bees. She was more than happy to pay me to rid her deck of the wasps. Whether they were bees or wasps, it is the same deal, a person should be held hostage from there property by insects.
I suppose if there were a law to protect them you could apply for an exemption, present your case to a board, and get a permit to destroy them. We should probably provide a lawyer to represent the bees or wasps case, after all they have rights too!! Don't worry about cost, we would simply put a tax on all food we grow to pay for all the work the bees and wasps are rightfully owed for the pollination and other services they provide.
It would also create jobs and wealth. Ahh!! I wonder how people survived before there was a law for darn near everything?
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:thunder:
How can one be an expert and a fool at once? I will be the first to admit that we have too many laws. I am certainly not an advocate of big government. I guess i' m going to go into bee removal, I need a suit. I find it ironic, that so many professionals would argue against bee protection laws. Especially, when it would only do, for bee removal, what similar restrictions imposed by the E.P.A., on freon, did for the air condition business. Triple the work, triple the price, and protect your market from scabs like me, by requiring licensing. You should be the first people in line to lobby for a bee protection law, but oh yeah, you'd have to get behind those geeky scientist guys. They seem to be concerned that the world' s bees are disappearing at an alarming rate or some such nonsense phhh..It seems that by the bee lawyer reference you must have seen Bee Movie. Did you ever happen to see Road Warrior? Mel Gibson? Beyond Thunderdome? That is very much how our planet would look without bees to pollinate the vegetation for reproduction, and in a very short time. Ever heard of the great dust cloud that covered the mid-west, in this very country, turning the sky black for years. I can't recall the specific name, but it happened on the great plains, after the great land rush, when the settlers, farmed the land. They harvested and failed to plant a winter crop with nothing to hold down the soil where the lush prarie grass had always grown. They sat awaiting the mid-west winds that we now, all know, tear through the Tornado Alley every year. This resulted in a horrendous dust storm the likes of which humanity had neither seen before nor since. It lasted for an eternity and permeated everything for years the people who lived there ate, wore, slept, and bathed, in dust. The bare earth, exposed to the wind, the precious topsoil ,was torn away, compounding the problem and perpetuating the nightmare. That is very much how our world would look without bees to pollinate the vegetation for reproduction, and in a very short time.
So then conceding that we have too many laws, partially due to neglecting to remove antiquated laws from the books. We have laws that read like the old testament in pig latin, and are as relevant in today's world, and add new ones every year. Then sure, let' s say, for the sake of argument ; That we have an over expanded, bloated, self serving, doughnut scarfing, government . Where incidentally they now average forty percent more in wages and benefits than the average private sector employee. Just for the sake of argument. All these things established.So then should we then not pass the law, that protects the bees, that pollinate the vegetation, that holds down our top soil, where we grow our food, so we can afford one more trip to Wal-Mart a month. Maybe we can move the Wal-mutt under ground when the dust storm engulfs the Earth. How much will that cost?
I' m not talking about saving hornets, nor should they be eradicated. I do not support the notion of any exemption either, I live in New Orleans it is one of the hottest climates this country has to offer and the bees still migrate. I lived for a time in my great grandfathers cypress shack, in the swamp. My grandfather and I did the plumbing, because there was no bathroom and the only running water was in the kitchen sink. My little brother and I dug the septic tank hole by hand, after renting a pump to keep the hole dry. We moved in during the dead of winter.Spring came at last, and with it, a giant bee nest, inside the wall, right near the side entrance, which entered the livingroom. We lived there several years, didn' t bother the bees, and they didn' t bother us. But as I was saying, bees are migratory and as a post above stated they occupy a space so barring extreme allergic reaction, why not let them stay, and let them leave, then fill the space, and close off the access points. This would be a cheap, easy solution for most home owners. As for millionaire slumlords, let them pay a removal service, the few times a year it becomes necessary.
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protecting critters always has unintended consequences. protecting bees would be stupid on top of having unintended consequences. i do (some) removals. i have also suggested to people that extermination of their bees might be their best option. bees can't always be saved. sometimes, there are circumstances where they shouldn't be saved, or where saving them would cause a great inconvenience or danger to people.
bees are great. they do great stuff. i love having them. i do my best to save them. people come first.
As for millionaire slumlords, let them pay a removal service, the few times a year it becomes necessary.
i know a lot of people who own rentals, myself included, but i know "no millionaire slumlords". perhaps you have watched to many movies?
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Actually in the right area, honey bee removals can pay off.
The bees don't care, most of the time they'll end up with a new queen and new genetics anyway, therefore basically a whole new hive. Sortof like saving a wild chicken to incubate an egg.
You're welcome to start that up in my area...I get lots of calls for removal, people offering me free bees (bargain!!), etc. I've found no other beekeeper in a 100 mile radius that have any desire to do so either (I wonder why?? :roll:) I don't have the desire nor time to drive for hours and then spend more hours in sweaty bee gear but very occasionally doing cutouts for hives that may or may not make it. And most people would rather spend $80 on an exterminator than spend $200 on some guy who will rip open their walls for a free bee hive. That's fine with me.
I find splits to work very wonderfully.
Now killing swarms...I do have a bit more of a problem with that.
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there are only 2 in my area. i do the outbuildings for free and avoid the homes. my agreement with the owners is that i'll do the removal and cleanup, but they do the repairs. seems to work. i enjoy it and the bees are saved.
can't do them at this time of the year and save the bees, so if they want the bees gone, they have to find someone else or call an exterminator.
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:ninja:
I also own a rental but it is a single family dwelling and does not generate the income of 400 + units. It, could also be that the rental market in "boring old Oregon" is not What it is, in the "University District" , of New Orleans the hub of southern learning and culture, as well as, one of the nation' s oldest cities. Maybe you travel TOO little.
I have an extensive history in construction and am an expert at demolition "They call me Termight " and can not picture the circumstances you refer to. Even after spending the past two years, disecting giant chopped up hundred year old mansions with plaster walls slate roofs terra cotta drains and cloth insulated wires. Maybe you need to take on a carpenter, and expand your services to include replacement, of areas demoed for hive removal.
As far as the $ 200 bit, as I said before protective legislation would drive up cost to probably triple $600, make spraying unlawful, and punishable by fine, and then replacement could add another $400 easily, bringing the total up to a nice round figure of a thousand dollars. Then considering the infrequency with which colonizations of dwellings occur on a case by case basis that figure could then be passed neatly onto the Homeowner' s Insurance provider. I fail to see the problem. other than obstinance and fear of change.
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Why don't you run for a seat in Congress and get started on this Bee Excellent
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:soapbox:
Maybe if this page gets enough traffic I will. On a save the bees and pro legalization platform.
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sweet heart, maybe you can't picture the circumstances because you don't have enough experience with bees yet. perhaps a little time in cold winter climates with bees would enlighten you. talk to me again when you have done a few cutouts and know what it takes to remove, hive, and save those bees.
just what we need. more laws to tell people what they should and shouldn't do with their own property :roll:
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Sorry, laws that drive costs are the same ones that fueled tea parties in the past and the present.
But if there was any time to pass horrible legislation that will cost people a lot of money, nows the time!! Nobody would notice one little stinker among all of the big stinkers. :-D
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Scadsobees is correct in saying, Nobody would notice one little stinker among all of the big stinkers. I believe at this point we should see if the Clydesdale's are not to busy since they are not working on any super bowl commercials and pull the honey wagon to spread the solids. We have past the stinkers portion.
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I love this forum!!! I have no time left now after my job, playing with my bees, and tending to my and others posts on this forum to spent any time the bar getting intoxicated or wasting money on foolish things I don't need.
Of course we need laws to protect wildlife and nature. Yes we need to control the use of large scale use of pesticides that can affect everything around us. What we don't need is laws that are a bigger pest than the pests they will protect. Most people will leave alone something that leaves them alone. A wasp nest under the garage eave or a junk pile usually gets left alone. A wasp nest neat your house door or where your children play will get your attention when you get stung and I'm sorry to say will have to die. Most people will make rational decisions. Idiots will make idiotic laws. Unfortunately while the rational people are to busy making a living the idiots are making laws that make us work longer hours to fund and have less time to pay attention to the next law the idiots pass. I am so sick of the governments continual invasion of peoples rights. Will there be anything on earth that does not have a law attached to it before my passing? Good God help us all!!
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Bee Excellent:
Only 7 posts and you are irritating many of us - interesting approach to joining a forum, hope to see lines like "Boring old Oregon" disappear from your vocabulary by your next post. We DO NOT instigate arguments with other members here, and thinking that New Orleans as a major housing hub in any economy is laughable - most of us thought the best thing after Katrina was to destroy any sign of man-made structures and turn the whole thing into a national wildlife reserve or swampland national park. So don't try baiting others here by twisting the names of where they are from.
Also, you use unnecessary words we allow through the word filter, but they do nothing to improve or justify their usage here, keep it family friendly. You love to write long-winded posts, I'm happy for you - but I hope to "not see" anything resembling personal attacks used to start an argument, you don't have a dog in that fight with most of the members here, especially one from "Boring" Oregon, she'll mop the floor with you, so think twice and type once here.
Watch yourself, I like passionate members, but not ones who make it a point to place zingers in every post they do here. And yes, I do like to admonish new members in public, that way when they disappear because of their actions - the membership already knows why and no followup message is required. Plus it gets the attention of other new members who haven't taken the time to read the bilaws, it is a win win scenario.
If you need to move on to other topics to curb your "enthusiasm" then you might want to call this topic quits, there are lost of forums and thousands of topics - find some that wind you up so much.
Lastly, just keep your posts a lot less pointed and everything will be fine, but I highly suggest you read the BILAWS of the forum at http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,19652.0.html and if you have any questions after that, I'll gladly show you the door.
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:jail: There I go again, " forgetting my place ", I must be coming down with the " Old-Timers ". I forgot this is, The United States of America, and we're all supposed to be, fat, lazy, stupid, complacently sedated, and over-medicated, but never poignant, objectionable, or passionate.
In reference to New Orleans, I never claimed it was a housing hub, but rather a cultural, and educational one. The geography of the city prevents it from becoming a major sprawling housing center, like Dallas. This creates an inflated market, especially in the University District, which was the point, I was originally trying to make. I understand, there is some swampland, near Jersey, as well. Then of course, being on the eastern seaboard, they also are a possible target, for hurricane driven flooding. I for one, am of the mind, that the loss of New Jersey, would be a significantly smaller blow to humanity than would be the loss of New Orleans.
As for language, I will concede, I had not initially considered, the attraction, that a bee forum, would hold for children. As I am writing this reply, I am certainly not opposed, to ruffling the feathers, of other members, or the administration. " So what's new ?". I am actually quite proud, to have drawn a reprimand, so quickly. If you can' t take the heat, the kitchen door is yours, feel free, to throw me out of it. I would speculate ; that there are millions of forums with infinitely more topics, but to suggest I waste my time posting on things I care little or nothing about is absurd.
Which brings me back to topic, and the reason I came back to this page. I had a final thought on the subject. If we are, as a society, going to have a list of endangered species, under protection of law. Speculating that we could emerge, collectively, from our individual, self inflicted, drug induced, stupors, long enough to put the honey bee, on that list. The Honey Bee, would then become, the only member of that list, on which, the survival of almost every other member, would depend. Without Honey Bees, the endangered species list would soon be nothing more than a forgotten relic.
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if you are going to try to "ruffle feathers" it's good to have a logical argument. yours is not, can not be logically extrapolated, and.....your punctuation needs work.
i, too, like to ruffle feathers with the goal of having a logical, thoughtful, discussion. if you do it just to do it, it's kind of childish. when you deflect the conversation with ad hominem attacks, you make folks wonder if you can not defend your arguments on the merits.
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Bee Excellent, Maybe, I, can, write, this, in, your, language,.
Nope, just too much trouble trying to hit all those commas.
As for New Orleans, I guess there needs to be garbage dumps every where, but that one needs to be closed and filled in. It is past it's usefulness.
As for laws protecting honeybees, teaching the populace about them would likely make much more sense.
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it seems to me that education is typically a far better tool than legislation any day.
Big Bear
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:thunder:
How can one be an expert and a fool at once?
...They're collectively called 'congress'
(I suspect that they are protected by evolution and proliferation)
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I would be against any legislation protecting bees, as well. Knowing Congress, they would include a ban on "removing or otherwise disturbing honey bees" or some other such nonsense, without the necessary federal permits ($$$).
I have also found that most people in my area are well aware of the plight of the honey bee. I have received many phone calls this past year asking my to come and check on whether the "bees" they have are honey bees and, if so, how can we save them. (Unfortunately, they have been yellow jackets or bald-faced hornets.) I would say that education is the key.
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I think JP probably got it right for what happens around there, in regards to left behind honey, etc.
Most exterminators have learned that spraying the hole of a honey bee colony in a home and then plugging the hole, usually amounts to a limited kill, a left behind situation of perhaps rotting bees left in the wall, hundreds of pounds of honey to attract ants, termites and every other insect for years to come doing massive damage to the homes interior structure, and many times a situation where they are called to come back and followup many times for a half completed job, after the bees eat through the puddy or found another entry point.
They understand that killing off the entire colony (To which I think they have no problem, if not for the hassles) means more than the cosmetic application of chemicals they use for other insect problems. They do not not want to deal with opening up a wall, removing an established colony, and the potential hassles and time that come with such a job.
Around here, you mention honey bees in a wall, and most exterminators run the other way. And that is what I prefer. I had past calls from ticked off families who paid someone to spray in a hole, plug the hole, and then collect a huge check. Then when they find out what was left behind, what potential damage they could be looking at, and what should of been done, and what it will cost for me to do the job correctly.....they are not too happy when they call that exterminator company back.
I don't think it is a law around here, but exterminators also know that it is not something they want to mess with anymore. So they spread this "I can not kill honey bees! You need to call a beekeeper."
And that suits me fine.... :-D
Now if we can actually get all beekeepers to realize the value of the service they provide, and not be bashful in actually charging for this service. Most beekeepers are not business people. And many have a hesitation in quoting, collecting, and asking for what is fair. They want to help people, and for some it just comes as stressful to get into a "salesman" mode of completing a "contract" for services, even if it is just asking to be paid for the job. They do a couple for free, don't like making little old ladies pay for it, then just come to the conclusion that it is easier to not take removal jobs.
I belong to two local clubs. And I bet out of both clubs (150 members each) there isn't more than two people willing to do an extraction.
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:ninja:
I also own a rental but it is a single family dwelling and does not generate the income of 400 + units. It, could also be that the rental market in "boring old Oregon" is not What it is, in the "University District" , of New Orleans the hub of southern learning and culture, as well as, one of the nation' s oldest cities. Maybe you travel TOO little.
I have an extensive history in construction and am an expert at demolition "They call me Termight " and can not picture the circumstances you refer to. Even after spending the past two years, disecting giant chopped up hundred year old mansions with plaster walls slate roofs terra cotta drains and cloth insulated wires. Maybe you need to take on a carpenter, and expand your services to include replacement, of areas demoed for hive removal.
As far as the $ 200 bit, as I said before protective legislation would drive up cost to probably triple $600, make spraying unlawful, and punishable by fine, and then replacement could add another $400 easily, bringing the total up to a nice round figure of a thousand dollars. Then considering the infrequency with which colonizations of dwellings occur on a case by case basis that figure could then be passed neatly onto the Homeowner' s Insurance provider. I fail to see the problem. other than obstinance and fear of change.
Why create laws to drive up cost? We should change the way people think of bees.
By creating a law you make people have to do something.
By changing the way people think you make people want to do something
running the price up for bee removal is ubsurd and now we want a law requiring it? what about the poor lady with a fixed income now by law she has to pay a guy a 1000 bucks to remove a hive, when before she may have chosen to have them removed for 200 or less. Sorry I hate making a law to have a law to make people feel good.
spread the word of the benefits of bees and keep the govt. out of it.
Keith
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It's not just about being too shy to charge money for the service. Money collected for honey bee removal is taxable income and could be construed as a business if the state, etc.. decides you make enough money doing it. Many beekeepers don't have businesses set up to tie related earnings from bee removals to.
If you want to charge money and not report it, that's up to you. I have the worlds worst luck, it's as if legal people are just waiting somewhere behind me. waiting for me to slip up.
I tell people wanting to remove bees from a wall to hire a handyman or carpenter. I will be there to collect the bees, remove the comb, etc.., but I will not handle the "wall work" that's how people get sued in these crazy times.
Besides, I feel it helps create or build a sense of community to be able to help someone with these and not charge them. We each got something out of it, I the bees and they the bees removed. The bees get a (hopefully) better home in the end. We all win. and hopefully, through the process and a casual attitude, everybody has a bit of fun too.
But, everyone has their own way and no one way is the only way to do it.
Big Bear
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bigbear,
I agree to a point.
Around here, we have many of the "Help thy neighbor" types. And I'm not against that. The problem is this....
That message is "suggested" at bee meetings to new beekeepers, that it is in the best interest of the bee "community" to do this as a public service.
That message is relayed and repeated to the community, that beekeepers will spend an entire Saturday Afternoon, because we are all nature loving bee saving folks that do it for the bees sake, and thus are rewarded with a bee colony, and do it with a smile.
Then this translates into reality.....
New beekeepers do it once and say that was enough for me.
Old timers don't do it because they are....old!
Nobody wants to do it....if the colony is behind the chimney, under the overhang on the second floor balcony, etc. But lets just not list bad situation. Most won't do anything beyond a four foot high swarm from a tree along the road.... ;)
So what we are left with is this....
Exterminators not wanting the job.
Beekeepers not wanting the extraction job.
And the public left scratching their heads.
I hear the same thing dozens of times each year from homeowners. "I called the local bee club...I called the list they gave me....Nobody will come out to help "save these bees".....I thought beekeepers did this for free.....I don't know what to do!"
Everyone wants free swarms. Nobody wants to do this for free when it comes to an extraction.
And I'll state for all new beekeepers who read this.......Charge. Once word is out that you are the last resort and WILLING to actually move your butt and provide the service of extractions....your phone will be ringing of the hook.
I do not see this "It helps to create a sense of community" when the homeowner called 12 beekeepers on the supposed "swarm list" of the local club, and NOBODY is willing to help. Which is what happens for the most part, after the beekeepers asks several questions of the homeowner and it is found out that the bees are in the brick wall, second floor up.
Of course I have insurance and actually run a business. But too bad the "business" is oftentimes having to deal with perceptions, initial "free quotes" from beekeepers who never had the intention of even doing the job, and a homeowner that is at their ends wits over the matter.
I talk with many beekeepers off the forums about these situations. Some will not go on a forum and discuss such topics and dealings. But the one thing they all say in private is they charge.....they charge a good price....and they are BUSY!
I wish some of the "We should do it free" crowd lived closer to me. I actually have jobs I really don't want, yet have nobody to pass them off too... :-D
It is a shame about taxes and reporting , etc.
And so nobody thinks I'm blowing smoke.....I list fees right on my website. For extractions and swarms. And I get calls all the time.
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I hear you on the not all bee handlers do it or stick with it.
I am aware of several people that keep bees in this area, yet, I get an incredible amount of calls from folks who said they got my number from the County Reeact center. I have even asked if they were given any other numbers and ether it's they can't recall or straight forward I was the only number they had.
I guess as long as I am willing and able to do it, I will and have no problem. I am hoping to work with new local bee handlers who want to learn and have the experience of bee handling, but due to lack of money, space, etc.. might not get the opportunity unless they volunteer at our apiary.
Eventually, I hope to spread the enthusiasm and the mindset of 'helping thy neighbor' to these volunteers and with any luck, this apiary will survive and be active beyond my own involvement.
we're going to give it a shot anyway.
Big Bear
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Sounds like a good plan.
I actually also get many county dispatch calls. From my days as an inspector, I am on the county 911 list. First responder stuff in case of emergency, truck flips, etc.
Many times, I actually ask the homeowner if they had called anyone from the local clubs in regards to an extraction. If they say no, I give them the proper numbers and suggest that I am the "last resort" and do get paid for my services. But they may want to call the club and find out if anyone would be willing to help out, even if it is for a fee. I am really busy during the normal bee season, and get busy doing this type stuff, to the point I don't want anymore calls.
More times than not, they call me back, after not finding anyone willing to do the job.
There are many times I would really not want the job, even if I was getting paid 300 dollars. The thought of doing it for free, is long gone.
But I also know that there are not many willing to take these jobs.
Sounds like getting more involved would be a good route to take.
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Bjorn has said it all from the normal standpoint. I will say, from the "been there, done that" side, that there is available a good sideline business out there if you are interested. I have done it for 30 plus years, for individuals, businesses, governments, even other beeks. I get a minimum 300 and have gotten as high as a thousand, then when the bees are settled and doing well, I get an extra 150 to 250 for the hive.
Nearly every beek I know that does removals is quite willing to teach, if any of you younger beeks are interested in starting.
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I can attest to the fact once you are known you will get calls. I contacted one local pest control company and one local nursery just about 6 weeks ago to try to get on a ‘SWARM’ removal list for next spring. So far I have been called for 3 cutouts (redirected 1, completed 1, the last one was sprayed with chemicals and I turned it down) and a swarm removal.
I am looking forward to the spring with optimism as I may be real busy. I did charge a nominal fee for the cutout and the home owner was very pleased. I would not, could not spend this much time without charging a fee and wouldn’t recommend if for anyone either.
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Sorry folks, I'm late in reading this post. Today I started reading it from the beginning and found several LOOOOONG posts that I had a hard time following. Of course I dropped them after the first couple of lines. The original thread has changed topic matter several times.
Nevertheless, following on the last few posts, I have to say that I will not take anything less than 300 to just show up and look at the job. The average cutout, including finishing work is 800-1000.
I also had the opportunity to connect with several local exterminators in my area to ask if they would pass on some jobs in my direction regarding bee work. Two of them have actually sent several jobs my way. Several others (3 or 4) told me that they have their own trained staff. One exterminator contacted me to asked if I would remove some bees from a building they were working on. As I proceeded to explain to him that I did the cutouts or extractions for a fee he interupted me and proceeded to tell me that I was taking all his work away from him. I then explained to him that I have been doing this work for around 30 years and that perhaps it was the other ways around. He hung up so I don't know what his answer was.
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Maybe it's regional, I don't know. I know I have talked to quite a few people over the phone this past 6 months looking to have bees removed. It's sad the number of people who would rather pay for a can of Raid instead of to have the bees kept alive.
I am conservation minded. the thought of killing a perfectly good colony over the excuse of money is just not acceptable to me.
As has been said before, to each their own.
Big Bear
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Personally, I would go to great lengths to save a colony of bees, even if it meant doing a removal for free. I look at it as saving me money on bees that I would normally have to buy, plus I am saving the feral genetics. Unfortunately, I only had one cut-out this past year. I had several calls, but most of these were for yellow jackets and bald-faced hornets. There was only one other call that actually involved honey bees, but I would have needed a helicopter to get to the roof, and then would have had to remove the roof of the building to get to them. To some, beekeeping is a business, to some a hobby. For me it's a labor of love. The only time I am really happy and at peace is when I'm with my bees.
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Maybe it's regional, I don't know. I know I have talked to quite a few people over the phone this past 6 months looking to have bees removed. It's sad the number of people who would rather pay for a can of Raid instead of to have the bees kept alive.
I am conservation minded. the thought of killing a perfectly good colony over the excuse of money is just not acceptable to me.
As has been said before, to each their own.
Big Bear
Bigbear,
Maybe it in the presentation, with actual facts and good advice thrown in. I tell people exactly why buying that can of raid and spraying the hole of a colony of bees inside their homes wall is not a good idea. Many people call me after seeing my info on the website. It is accurate, truthful, and upfront.
See:
http://www.bjornapiaries.com/services-swarms.html
If I don't take the time to help the homeowner understand the potential disaster they may be causing themselves, then it's not about killing bees over money, to which I agree with your stance. It should not be about money. However, it should be more than a solution based on ignorance of the homeowner or in my failure to allow that to happen without divulging what is going to happen by such actions.
My fee is not costing the homeowner....it is saving him thousands by having them pay for the job to be done correctly, which happens to come at a cost much lower than that 5 dollar can of raid..... :-D
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gaucho....good for you. Keep up the good work and providing a service to the community.
I actually had an exterminator a few years back call me for a job. He wanted me to be his "Bee guy". It would work this way.....He took the job, charged 500 dollars, and then would subcontract with me to take the bees out of homes for 100. He figured since so many beekeepers were willing to do it for free, I should be happy with the hundred. I told him if there were so many beekeepers willing to do it for free, then why was he offering me 100 dollars. I think he's still looking for a "bee guy" .... :-D
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gaucho....good for you. Keep up the good work and providing a service to the community.
I actually had an exterminator a few years back call me for a job. He wanted me to be his "Bee guy". It would work this way.....He took the job, charged 500 dollars, and then would subcontract with me to take the bees out of homes for 100. He figured since so many beekeepers were willing to do it for free, I should be happy with the hundred. I told him if there were so many beekeepers willing to do it for free, then why was he offering me 100 dollars. I think he's still looking for a "bee guy" .... :-D
HA! good answer.
I ran into that with general contractors with electrical - I wound up telling them "this is what I charge, you mark that up however you want." (of course it was better for the homeowners to contact me directly.)
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Well, I provide good information and rationale for not killing the bees, I'm not a sensationalist about it. Then again, I have never been that worried about collecting a check over it to begin with. so That would be one reason I don't push the issue of charging for the removal. One thing I didn't mention before that I perhaps should have is that even though I don't 'charge' to remove them, I am more than willing to accept a donation if they offer.
The apiary project is a non-profit one and if they are compelled to make a monetary donation, I don't turn it away. Maybe about a third to half of the people I have talked to have offered a donation after the fact in the past. With the project starting in a new, bigger direction this spring, I expect to do quite a bit more removals.
Also, I am not doing the work of opening the siding or wall to expose the colony either. If I were doing all of that, I might charge for that aspect of the situation.
One thing I want to add here, i am not suggesting that people do not charge, if that is what they choose to do and find people willing to pay. More power to you. I also don't want folks who don't want to charge to feel as though they are being pressured to charge for the service either. It really is up to each individual as to how to go about it.
I have agree that that not many people really do step up that often to do removals. The fact that there are a few who are, whether voluntarily or for a fee, is better than having no one to do it and let the bees die entirely.
Big Bear
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:deadhorse: Well said, nice to see the hive buzzing so. Education would indeed solve the problem. Unfortunately, education would solve a great many of the world' s problems, problem being, there are a great many people alive today who will live many years to come without ever being educated. Coupled with the fact that many of our recent high school graduates are reading on a sixth grade level. So if you have to take the time to complete basic education before continuing onto bee education doesn't that then become more time consuming than the extraction.
Here I was wondering where all the nice people in the world went I thought they were all dead when all the time they were all just bee keepers. No investment bankers in bee keeping I can see. Wake up and smell the new millennium: Nothing is Free, not air or water, nothing. Why then should anyone expect you to waste your time, a much more precious and limited commodity. I used to cut trees down for a living, not in the forest, but in the city, over structure etc. The man I started tree work with, had been removing trees, for over fifty years. He would save all the burnable wood, from the trees he cut during the busy season. Then during the lax season, (around the holidays), he would have it split, to sell as fire wood. He made fifty thousand a year, off of firewood, I'd be willing to bet was unreported, but never offered to do a tree for firewood. Why then would anyone do an extraction just for some bees ? I am suddenly reminded of magic beans. Especially if the survival of the hive is as unpredictable as some of the above posts suggest.
As I said before, I live in New Orleans, termites are a major problem here, and the same millionaire slumlord, who regularly sprays hives in the wall, and leaves them to rot. Rather than spend, three hundred dollars,on an extraction, spent thousands having a couple of buildings tented and sprayed for termites. Termites do not generally devour a whole building, like depicted on television, but rather, they are drawn to an area by moisture, and devour said area, then moving on. Leaving a situation that I can only assume, closely resembles that of an abandoned hive, left to rot, inside a wall. The point is that if the prospective damage to property is comparable, why then should termites be given such priority, when there contribution to the environment is considerably less, even more so as they're only being destroyed, and not saved,as the bees should be. It's all about scare tactic marketing the only way anything gets done in this country. Thank god for bicycle helmets. Hard to follow hmph..
Anyway legislation to force people like this to do the right thing would only be protecting him from himself as although he is wealthy and accredited he still falls neatly into the category of people mentioned in the beginning of this post.
$$ Home Owners $$ Home Owners $$ Home Owners $$ Let the insurance companies pay. If granny doesn' t have it, she should, more so than anyone.
It' s Dangerous, It' s Hazardous, the resulting decay could compromise the structure. This week on discovery bee attack week. Scare tactic marketing combined with a save the planet movement it's a shoe in and should be done. Do you now pay premiums on a homeowner policy ? Have you ever made a claim against it ? Have you ever had a bee hive in the wall of your current or any other residence? Again I stress the infrequency. :deadhorse:
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In the interests of transparency, I can say I beleive in what I said about doing bee removals for free while I could afford it.
Having very recently had my job sent somewhere else, but I didn't get to go with it, that no longer stands true (the part abut being able to afford to, that is).
I have indeed put together a price for bee removals from a home, based primarily on local exterminators costs.
If, in the event I do charge for a removal, I will be charging $125.. with bees healthy and un raided. If the bees have been sprayed or otherwise poisoned, I will do it for $200.00 as I figure the bees being healthy can account for $75.00 if I were to buy them in a package.
Local exterminators charge $150.00 and do not remove the bees or nest afterward. They also do not do the handyman work part of the job and neither do I.
I still plan to do it for free in circumstances where it's needed.
Big Bear
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Concerning there being plenty of bees to go around: Where?
Until I got a feral hive last year my garden squash, berries etc., were pitiful. Too many pollinators have been wiped out here.
When I was a kid there were paper wasps, dirt wasps, yellow jackets prey on grubs and pest larva; bumble bees, honey bees, and small natural pollinators going form tree to tree in early spring; Now, only visitors to our fruit trees are honey bees and a few pests.
Peoples gardens in last few years here have done very poorly with many pests; coincidentally it was at same time my wife and I noticed a large reduction in all bees. Our house is old and many bees used to reside in our attic for winter. Not anymore. Where oh where have they all gone?
I only wish we had more predatory wasps and natural pollinators still here so we wouldn't have to fight off so many pests. And I live in a very rural area.
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someone might have an answer for you if they knew where you were. you can go into your profile and put a location.
i don't know that pollinators have been wiped out. i know i didn't really notice them until i started keeping bees. i will say that our fruit orchard is better than it's ever been thanks to my beekeeping and my husbands orchard bees.
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I live in southern oklahoma. Our issue seems to be localized to certain areas, example; many predatory wasps around recreational cabins close to lakes but few to none around residences any more.
With in last five years most bees and wasps have here have vanished, though some seem to be making a slow comeback.
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I live in southern oklahoma. Our issue seems to be localized to certain areas, example; many predatory wasps around recreational cabins close to lakes but few to none around residences any more.
With in last five years most bees and wasps have here have vanished, though some seem to be making a slow comeback.
That kind of makes sense. If wasps eating bugs around bodies of water are getting along fine, and bees eating bugs that may be poisoned by inland pesticides are dieing off, maybe there is a clue there.
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Good point bee-nuts.