Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 14, 2013, 01:25:22 pm
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Please share your knowledge of thermodynamics.
Cheers,
Drew
p.s. If anyone knows any entomologists or physicist/beeks could you please get opinion on thread. I'm dying a slow and painful death here :)
SAVE THE BEES ! :)
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From other forum:
Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 12, 2013, 10:15:37 PM
Got any pics of condensation in a honeybee hive ?
Reply:
They make any sense. Idea is avoid condensation, not to make it.
bees make condensation regardless ... this is about where it happens
if it occurs inside the insulated space below the bees you get 10% heat back
Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #34 on: Today at 01:51:47 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify
DING ! DING ! DING ! WINNER ! WINNER ! CHICKEN DINNER ! applause
Also, (and more importantly), if it occurs in insulated space below bee's, you have dry B's !
Cheers,
Drew
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From other forum:
No question should ever be considered unreasonable - the only unreasonable aspect of this thread are the responses from ... and his parrot, who cannot get their heads around a perfectly sound enquiry.
Warm air rises, and cold air descends - therefore the formation of a thermocline is always possible. But I would suggest that the existence of a thermocline within a beehive is highly unlikely ... for 2 reasons.
The first is the activity of the bees themselves. Wherever there is active circulation (often due to the cluster being located towards one side), there is unlikely to be stratification of thermal layers.
The second is that a vortex is created near the entrance to any occupied hive, due to the movement of air through a narrow space. (Clearly this would not apply where OMFs are fitted.) Such vortices would also 'stir the air'.
The only time I could envisage a thermocline being created would be when the bees are very tightly and centrally clustered, and when the upper part of the hive is 100% sealed. But the breaking of cluster would soon mix the air, thus destroying any temporary stratification.
At least, that's how I see events within the hive. But I could always be wrong !
Thermoclines are more usually associated with large outdoor expanses of water, where the water is heated (by the sun) from above. Warm water rises and the cooler water gradually migrates downwards (just check your domestic hot water tank) - thus creating the thermocline. I have often experienced these when diving in the Med - it's like moving through an invisible curtain between an oven and a fridge. Very strange.
Having said that - an immersion heater does heats the water from below, and a thermocline is most certainly created within a hot water tank (but it's a tank which isn't stirred), so it's far from being a stupid issue to raise.
Me:
I to am a scuba diver, and sky. My contention would be...... ready for it ? The atmosphere is static ! remember combs now, can you visualize how the heat would disallow condensation above thermocline ? Smile The honeybee hive is natures perfect distillery ! Smile
_Me
Of course it could be wishful thinking but, if you go back, re-read Langsroth, Huber, I'm working thru Swammerdam now, the clues are there. They saw the thing, just, like all since, missed the significance. They didn't understand thermocline
Me
Go, look @ your honeybee organism, again for the first time,........ think upside down moonshine still,..... think hermit crab.....can you see it now ? Smile
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OH LORD!
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work on bee thermal behaviour usually assumes thin wooden boxes not insulated ones.
I have found very little research and almost none that is well done on insulated environments .
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I know, can't find anything either. Could it be this has been completely missed ? I have emails out to mags and ent. depts. In any case, come spring, I have the necessary apparatus to test the theory. As they say, a pic is worth a thousand words.
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Good Lord double time :angel: :angel:
Another good example of a thermocline would be a swimming pool in the summer with a solar cover. As long as the pump isn’t running (to stir up the water), you end up with a layer of hot water at the surface that feels like a hot tub. However if you sink too low in the water you freeze your butt off (at least in Michigan) as the water rapidly gets cold. You see this in lakes to some extent too.
I think your poster in reply #2 hit the nail on the head on this one. If the bees are mixing the air then your thermocline idea is screwed! If the bees aren’t mixing the air, then your bees are screwed due to asphyxiation.
Drew would you concede that mixing of air by the bees will wreck a thermocline?
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Fill bowl with water......blow. Remember combs(hot/dry radiators), assume heat w/ no air movement. Do you have to flap your arms around to generate heat ? Try yoga :) Apis would not
asphyxiate in a tree :) There is exchange occurring, under control, through thermocline. You could call it breathing ! IMHO of course
p.s. BlueBee, You are a keeper, I shall let you take line, I have tightened my drag a hair, but I will tire you, then I shall have you ! :)
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there s a lot going on even without the bees mixing.
Air at the insulated walls is cooling and descending. warm moist air is rising from the bees.
water vapour is condensing releasing heat.
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I do not disagree, my contention is, that function is @ the complete mercy of the organism. Except if you vent the roof of course :( I would add that I believe the colony could be fanning quiet substantially above and the effect on the thermocline below would be like that of blowing into a bowl of water.
Another way to say, Apis can, boil, the moisture down/out.
p.s. I feel obliged to add a word of caution @ this juncture for the benefit of any following. I do not recommend you run right out and throw a garbage bag and old sleeping bag on your hive/shell. Also, if ya happen to know any thermodynamics professors.... ? Help ! :)
p.s. Although it gets tricky I suppose it could be to advantage to point out the 3D aspect to be expected of suspected thermocline @ this point. Although false it could help to see it as a sphere with the cluster @ center.
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Fill bowl with water......blow. Remember combs(hot/dry radiators), assume heat w/ no air movement. Do you have to flap your arms around to generate heat ? Try yoga :) Apis would not
asphyxiate in a tree :) There is exchange occurring, under control, through thermocline. You could call it breathing ! IMHO of course
p.s. BlueBee, You are a keeper, I shall let you take line, I have tightened my drag a hair, but I will tire you, then I shall have you ! :)
Is beekeeping really that difficult?
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I do not disagree, my contention is, that function is @ the complete mercy of the organism...
you need to eat this elephant one bite at a time
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Well said sir ! Yes, it sounds like the implications are starting to dawn on you.
p.s. Keep going, there is light
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I’m a little anxious to hear what your next invention is going to be. :)
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Is beekeeping really that difficult?
:roll: For some may bee
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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from other forum:
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Ok, so where does the moisture start to condense in a high density (100g/litre) polystyrene hive, sealed at the top?
me
Below thermocline, if your hive was upside down aquarium, under certain conditions, you would see a horizontal plane,...... defined, by a line of condensation.
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Ok, so where does the moisture start to condense in a high density (100g/litre) polystyrene hive, sealed at the top?
I have used polystyrene boxes 25 years. System is different than in wooden hives.
Wood sucks the condensed water inside. So the wood is more or less moist during winter. Ply may suck too 30% water.
We do not "seal" hives here on top. There is just cover on box.
Condensation happens in coldest surfaces. So inner cover must have best insulation that condensation does not happen there.
If the colony has too much space, the water condensates on unoccupied frames. It generates mould.
Usually condensation happens in the box corners.
Condensation is usual in side the hive. It does not kill hives. Too moisture however makes bees sick.
Keep the hive slanting forwards and water drills off from hive.
Mouldy hive means that the colony has too much space and the heat of cluster does not keep the hive warm enough.
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Thank you Finski that is helpful.
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How about forgetting the themocline and sticking some disposable diapers over you bees heads? They use a highly absorbent polymer to soak up moisture. This might just be the Cat's meow you're looking for.
Before moisture:
(http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/polymer-crystal1.jpg)
After moisture:
(http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/polymer-crystal2.jpg)
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clues ? :
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPM4fVQCSMAehNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZjczMG83BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=124b3gprg/EXP=1358320204/ (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPM4fVQCSMAehNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZjczMG83BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=124b3gprg/EXP=1358320204/)**http%3a//jeb.biologists.org/content/206/2/353.full
http://chopwoodcarrywaterplantseeds.blogspot.se/2012/06/hive-condensation.html (http://chopwoodcarrywaterplantseeds.blogspot.se/2012/06/hive-condensation.html)
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4897560653858276&pid=15.1 (http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4897560653858276&pid=15.1)
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7iUm4fVQB1cAdQRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MzU1YXZnBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=12bu5brfh/EXP=1358320038/ (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7iUm4fVQB1cAdQRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MzU1YXZnBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=12bu5brfh/EXP=1358320038/)**http%3a//www.beebehavior.com/infrared_camera_pictures.php
I believe that one infra red pic depicts a winter cluster, that air is not moving. Or, better, only moving within its own color. The thermal layers are visable, the red holes are the difference in temp between out and in. I believe this colony is quiet warm and dry both. Can you see how no moisture could condense in there ? Equally important, no vertical heat loss because no air loss ? (false, but suits our purpose here).
Cheers,
Drew
Sorry u have 2 cut and paste.
p.s. Remember you are looking @ 2D slice.
p.s.s. I don't know anything about that pic, but it does match perfectly how I see things, a couple more like it, and it will be time to begin new post in equip. sec. Thermohive:Construction :)
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we take it as a given that thermal gradients exist in bee hives
you are postulating a discontinuity in the thermal gradient...
given that the bees are in heat conservation mode where do you think the energy to maintain the discontunity coming from?
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My understanding is too limited to answer. Is that what I am postulating ? :) As for the energy, it is the honey yes ?
That infra-red cluster is just how I see it, my hives are airtight, the entrances are pvc pipe, they enter hive above floor, sometimes they look like moonshine still, I think those red holes in pick are what they would look like in infra-red ? how to describe that system ?
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Can you build a hive out of glass this month and move a hive of bees into it during our next warm spell and then take some photos!
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Got the hives, might need new B's :( , and finally I am forced to admit,... that I blew it completely ! :) I think I even remarked at one point about the condensation pattern and completely failed to realize the significance,(if there is any). How I didn't take a pic ? I have no excuse save.....airheadedness :) Drew, why did you build a glass hive ? :?
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My understanding is too limited to answer. Is that what I am postulating ? :) As for the energy, it is the honey yes ?
That infra-red cluster is just how I see it, my hives are airtight, the entrances are pvc pipe, they enter hive above floor, sometimes they look like moonshine still, I think those red holes in pick are what they would look like in infra-red ? how to describe that system ?
what is your level of knowledge in the physics heat and mass flow?
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Not sufficient to describe that picture. It would have to be explained to me in laymen terms. If you draw vertical line to right of center hole,(imagining my hive), just where the green and yellow meet, condensation, Yes ? Or perhaps rather ?
p.s. In rereading posts, I think the tone is......not as I intend, perhaps because I hunt and peck ? And the ? is a pain ? Please add on my behalf in future should I omit :)
p.s.s Also I think the.....manner of speech, from all these old books is creeping on me :)
p.s.s.s. Occurred to me another way to ask ? I don't know what that pic is, I googled winter cluster, or if I'm seeing it wrong ? I can see my hive. Red, B's, yellow, thermocline?/thermal layer ? protecting Apis from green/blue ?
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This......coincidence(?).....gave me a slight chill :)
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nXPE_dQZR0A5NRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MzU1YXZnBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=136jjdjha/EXP=1358398543/ (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nXPE_dQZR0A5NRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MzU1YXZnBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=136jjdjha/EXP=1358398543/)**http%3a//www.scribd.com/doc/81342235/Open-cell-convection-and-closed-cell-convection
Any help appreciated,
Cheers,
Drew
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Maybe I should send you a Thermodynamics textbook for some light weekend reading. :)
There’s so many variables at play in a bee hive the odds of recognizing all the variables and modeling them correctly is way more work than making a glass bee hive and observing what happens in real life. Thermodynamic models aren’t always the most accurate way to learn things anyways. Just watch the weather report some night.
You can buy plexiglass at Home Depot or Lowes for your glass hive, but it’s not the most cost effective material. I like the polycarbonate they use for greenhouse glazing. They sell and stock that stuff at Menards which is a home improvement chain in the Midwest. Don’t know if they extend out to Maryland or not. Here I can buy a 6 mm sheet of double wall polycarbonate (4’x8’) for about $50. You should be able to make 3 or 4 hives from that.
Chop chop, let's get er done before the next warmup!
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:) Got one, slow read :) Would like thermopane, w/ argon + glazing :) Anderson do custom ?
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How would you cut a glass thermopane (double pane) down to size for a bee hive? The insulation value of a double pane or triple pane window is really the air space between the panes. You can probably do better and cheaper with greenhouse polycarbonate. I know you can buy at least 6 wall stuff. The more walls, the higher the R value. The polycarb cuts fairly easily with a table saw. Just wear goggles.
However if you’re going to cover the glass hive with a foam shell, then you don’t really need the extra walls, right? Just a simple box made of plexiglass should work. Just cover that with a foam shell when done. The foam would provide the level of insulation you need (for winter in Maryland) for your thermocline and it also keeps the hive from melting when exposed to full sun.
Let’s pencil you in to complete this job by Monday, OK?
The other problem going with pure glass is it’s conductivity of heat. The pane against the bees is going to conduct heat from the top to the bottom of the hive. It might mess up your thermocline. A plastic pane really should be a better way to go.
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Thinking, looking @ thermal pic, that weber grill hive might be just the thing I seek :) Gets tricky w/ the shape I guess, not insurmountable.
p.s. Wonder if it could be that simple, the shape. In square Apis can't build sufficient bubble ? + heat not reflected evenly ?
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What makes you say the bees can make a heat bubble in a square hive?
My jumbos are almost square in size. I don't see why they couldn't make a heat bubble if I closed off the top entrance and used a bottom one instead. They are already quite warm even with the top vent. I might be able to fry breakfast on the inner cover if I tried to convert them to heat bubbles.
If you have enough bees, they make enough heat to keep the top of the box relatively warm no matter what the geometry I would say.
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What makes you say the bees can make a heat bubble in a square hive?
My jumbos are almost square in size. I don't see why they couldn't make a heat bubble if I closed off the top entrance and used a bottom one instead. They are already quite warm even with the top vent. I might be able to fry breakfast on the inner cover if I tried to convert them to heat bubbles.
If you have enough bees, they make enough heat to keep the top of the box relatively warm no matter what the geometry I would say.
So Bluebee the corollary: if you have less bees you should change the aspect ratio of the hive? or just keep the bee density the same?
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I make no such assertion ! :) They make bubble regardless(?), but in square hive it might not reach corners for small cluster(?), thus wet corners ? + perhaps square corners reflect core heat..... inefficiently? New word of day- aspect ratio, off to google :)
p.s. Could this b y Apis likes corner to corner in square ? Now round bubble covers whole space ?
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If you have less bees, you have less heat being generating. If your goal is to keep any condensation off the top of the hive, then one argument would be to minimize the surface are of the top. In that case, one could argue against a square top. On the other hand, if your aspect ratio is the other extreme (narrow rectangle), you may end up with condensation at the ends of the rectangle like in all the photos I posted in the top vs bottom thread. What is the best answer? I don’t know! It’s complicated. That’s why I experiment.
My guess is a square hive would be the most efficient geometry for wintering bees since it would allow the cluster to form the best sphere. A sphere has the minimum surface area per volume enclosed and should be the most thermally efficient for the cluster.
My baby mating nucs are almost square too. That allows the small amount of bees in them to cluster in a ball shape. If I were going to invent bee keeping all over again, I might go with square hives. :)
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I'm already drawing up my circle hive :)
I see an upside down, infra-red pic of bhive :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RayleighBernardConvection.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RayleighBernardConvection.png)
Cheers,
Drew
p.s. wish i had a infrared cam :)
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If you have less bees, you have less heat being generating. If your goal is to keep any condensation off the top of the hive, then one argument would be to minimize the surface are of the top. In that case, one could argue against a square top. On the other hand, if your aspect ratio is the other extreme (narrow rectangle), you may end up with condensation at the ends of the rectangle like in all the photos I posted in the top vs bottom thread. What is the best answer? I don’t know! It’s complicated. That’s why I experiment.
My guess is a square hive would be the most efficient geometry for wintering bees since it would allow the cluster to form the best sphere. A sphere has the minimum surface area per volume enclosed and should be the most thermally efficient for the cluster.
My baby mating nucs are almost square too. That allows the small amount of bees in them to cluster in a ball shape. If I were going to invent bee keeping all over again, I might go with square hives. :)
tree nests have an aspect ratio of about ~7
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Are you suggesting an ellipsoid is thermally superior to a sphere?
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I like the thought of that RB convection squeezed into ellipsoid
p.s. Found what I've been looking for ! Took long enough :)
http://www.naturalbeekeeping.com.au/Delon%20%27stable-climate%27%20hive.pdf (http://www.naturalbeekeeping.com.au/Delon%20%27stable-climate%27%20hive.pdf)
Drew
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Are you suggesting an ellipsoid is thermally superior to a sphere?
a sphere or cube is only applicable if the thermal conditions are isotropic.
as you get in thin wooden hive as there is virtually no insulation in anydirection.
An insulated hive or tree nest is strongly ansiotropic... its got an open entrance at the bottom and all this insulation on the top and sides.
A sphere is just not applicable as a valid solution
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Aren't we all glad that bees don't read the same books that we do?
Them poor ole dumb insects have been living in hives of various dimensions and shapes for how long now?
And obviously surviving by doing what they know to do with their own thermodynamic needs by instinct?
My hives have various amounts of ventilation that is set by the bees themselves. Some of my old inner cover type hives have their holes sealed with profilis in winter. Some not.
My migratory covers aren't air tight either.
Glad they know how much air to let in to regulate themselves without me having to go through the headache
Of reinventing the wheel.
And finski is right about the wood absorbing the extra moisture. Otherwise we would be using thermoplastic hives with textured wood finish inside.
Thought of having swarm traps made of fiberglass but then thought of the condensation raining down on my fresh caught bees.
Scrapped the idea!
Bailey
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A sphere is just not applicable as a valid solution
I don’t know who determines a “valid solution” or not, but my jumbo hives have survived quite well in boxes that are very close to a square. Brother Adams boxes were about square and Dadant was also fond of spherical shapes because he thought that was the most natural bee shape.
I’m also seeing more condensation in my heat bubble designs as the aspect ratio increases.
My hives are not instrumented, so it’s hard to draw conclusions at this point, but what are you suggesting is the best shape?
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And finski is right about the wood absorbing the extra moisture. Otherwise we would be using thermoplastic hives with textured wood finish inside.
:? I don't recall Finski claiming wood could absorb all the winter water vapor the bees generate? He uses a top hole to vent.
As for thermoplastic hives with textured wood finish inside, that is exactly how mine are built :) However the wood isn't there to absorb condensation, the wood is there to keep the bees (and moths) from eating through the foam. When I use a top vent, those hives have no condensation in them.
Solving the condensation problem is very simple. Just add a top hole. The problem/complication is when people also want to maximize the entrapment of the heat generated by the bee cluster.
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I wrote extra moisture. Not all moisture.
Bailey
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A sphere is just not applicable as a valid solution
I don’t know who determines a “valid solution” or not, but my jumbo hives have survived quite well in boxes that are very close to a square. Brother Adams boxes were about square and Dadant was also fond of spherical shapes because he thought that was the most natural bee shape.
I’m also seeing more condensation in my heat bubble designs as the aspect ratio increases.
My hives are not instrumented, so it’s hard to draw conclusions at this point, but what are you suggesting is the best shape?
The "who" is the differential equations of heat and mass transfer... Both brother adams and Dadant are wrong , both theoretically and experimentally, and to cap it all bees in trees are not spheres.
More condensation at lower levels is a good sign. (despite what beeks say) condensation is not necessarily cold but it always means a return of heat.
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I think you are making this too complicated.
The bees cluster, forming a more or less solid mass in between combs, and in the cells of those combs...the bees are able to regulate the flow of air in and out (and within) the cluster.
When the temperature is cold, the bees do what they can to retain heat within the cluster....tighten up, limit air flow.
As soon as it is getting too warm in the cluster, the bees start to shed heat.
If you want to do an experiment, you can take a 5 frame nuc, screen the bottom and the top, and put it in the refregerator (or outside in the winter...somewhere around 30-40 degrees). They make very little sound, very little heat is coming up through the screen, and very little smell is coming up through the screen.
As you warm them up, there is a "switch", where they go from holding the heat in to shedding it. It is obvious from the sound, the heat, and the smell.
The size of the cluster determines their ability to keep the cluster warm. If the cluster is too small or does not have "fuel", they will not be able to maintain their temperature.
Remember that the bees can be removing moisture from one cell to ripen honey, and increasing moisture in the next cell to keep the brood healthy.
If you want to talk about thermal flows within the hive, you have to take the comb, and the tens of thousands of little fans and heaters placed strategically throughout the combs. It isn't as simple as a swimming pool, but it need not be complicated.
More bees can maintain their temperature better than less bees.
Don't let condensation fall on the cluster...either with top cover design, absorbant material, or ventilation.
deknow
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I think you are making this too complicated.
...
deknow
and your observations assume no insulation..."ou can take a 5 frame nuc, screen the bottom and the top, "
with no insulation it is much simpler... but not neccessarily desirable.
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Also, the ability and methods of cluster to regulate hive atmosphere is not well understood, if @ all. It is possible that heat/moisture loss through ventilated top and air movement around comb sides in most hives hamper this ability.
Need more studies like this on different hive types:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022519311005698 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022519311005698)
Cheers,
Drew
p.s. I'm thinking colony atmospheric management might look something like this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RayleighBernardConvection.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RayleighBernardConvection.png)
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..whether the details are well understood or not, it remains that the cluster does regulate the temperature of the cluster. The cluster is able to do this under all kinds of conditions...hot, cold, insulated, not insulated, vented, sealed...etc. The bees simply take care of things.
They need to have enough honey to generate the heat they need, and they need to not have condensed moisture drip onto the cluster.
The experiment I proposed is an experiment, not a desirable way to keep bees. It demonstrates quite viscerally how the cluster behaves at different ambient temperatures. I proposed it the way I did because we did this experemet inadvertently driving some nucs north in a cargo van....and these were the conditions.
The study you cite is simply a computer model (with no testing of the results with real bees)...and a simplistic one at best:
For the purpose of modeling, each honeybee cluster was treated as an air-saturated porous medium with constant porosity. Heat and mass transfer interactions of the honeybees with the air, the outcome of metabolism, were captured in the porous medium model as source and sink terms appearing in the governing equations of fluid dynamics
There are undoubtedly differences between how air flows in frames and when comb is attached to the side walls of the cavity. There are undoubtedly difference between how air flows in a hive with a top vent and a hive without.
...but these differences are best measured (if we want to know what they are) on bees, not in a simple computer model that treats the cluster as "an air saturated porus medium with constant porosity".
This is not a passive system...the bees maintain and modify the environment as needed...how the bees (indivudually and as a cluster) react to various stimuli (cold, ventilation, sunlight, solar date, food stores, etc) is what is important. I don't see the need to try to define the role of these components, as they appear to function as they should...they are adapted to maintain a suitable environment for the cluster.
deknow
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" It demonstrates quite viscerally how the cluster behaves at different ambient temperatures. " ...
Yes that is correct but temperature is a too simple question. Bees manipulate their environment therefore subjecting them to overwhelming conditions hides their true behaviour which belongs in an insulated environment not at a forced temperature .
I would suggest first quantitively understand bees real environment not the boxes Man puts them in
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I would suggest first quantitively understand bees real environment not the boxes Man puts them in
What is it you think we don't understand?
deknow
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I would suggest first quantitively understand bees real environment not the boxes Man puts them in
It is in Africa. What do you do with knowledge "bees in tree cavity in Africa".
Bees have never been in Finland, but now they are "in human made insulated box" .
You need not much understanding. You put the hive into polystyrene box, feed it full with sugar and wait then 8 months that willows start to bloom.
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I would suggest first quantitively understand bees real environment not the boxes Man puts them in
It is in Africa. What do you do with knowledge "bees in tree cavity in Africa".
Bees have never been in Finland, but now they are "in human made insulated box" .
You need not much understanding. You put the hive into polystyrene box, feed it full with sugar and wait then 8 months that willows start to bloom.
They've been the UK and northern france since the last ice age. So their native environment predates skeps, wooden and polystryrene boxes. Go re-read some research.
AND Why are you contradicting yourself, I distinctly remember you saying Apis Mellifera evolved to live in tree cqavities to colonise colder climtes
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I distinctly remember you saying Apis Mellifera evolved to live in tree cqavities to colonise colder climates
Go re-read some research.
You late born derekm,
Yes, I have read researches.
Before genemapping researchers believed that mellifera has evolved in Europe.
No one knows what has happened during ice age ......since, how far since...
I wonder why we should research how bees live in tree holes.
(http://www.iceagenow.com/Europe_During_Last_Ice_Age.gif)
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Dec. 14, 2006 —
The discovery of a 100-million-year old bee embedded in amber -- perhaps the oldest bee ever found -- "pushes the bee fossil record back about 35 million years," according to Bryan Danforth, Cornell associate professor of entomology.
Danforth and George Poinar of Oregon State University found the bee embedded in amber from a mine in northern Myanmar (Burma).
A report on this major fossil discovery, which the researchers say supports a new hypothesis in bee evolution, was published in the Oct. 27 issue of Science.
Scientists have long believed that bees first appeared about 120 million years ago -- but previous bee fossil records dated back only about 65 million years. Danforth and Poinar's fossil provides strong evidence for a more remote ancestry. The fact that the bee fossil also has some wasp traits suggests an evolutionary link between wasps and bees.
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I distinctly remember you saying Apis Mellifera evolved to live in tree cqavities to colonise colder climates
Go re-read some research.
You late born derekm,
Yes, I have read researches.
Before genemapping researchers believed that mellifera has evolved in Europe.
No one knows what has happened during ice age ......since, how far since...
I wonder why we should research how bees live in tree holes.
(http://www.iceagenow.com/Europe_During_Last_Ice_Age.gif)
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well i have read the gene mapping research and they show the genetic changes that occurred since the honeybee left africa and moved north via the iberian penisula.
btw nothing much evolves under an ice sheet...
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well i have read the gene mapping research and they show the genetic changes that occurred since the honeybee
Well done!!!!!