Author Topic: Underdeveloped Bee Ejected from Hive - What's Wrong? (w/photo) - updated 5/26 (Read 8915 times)

SarahM · « **on:** May 25, 2011, 11:50:11 am »

This morning when checking the hive, I noticed an underdeveloped bee lying outside of the hive . . .

It was still alive as I saw at least one of its legs moving. What would cause something like this? I did a quick search online and came up empty so far. Any information/advice would be appreciated!

Edited to add: I just went out to the hive to put in a sticky board in order to do a Varroa mite count, and noticed a bee in the grass in front of the hive trying to fly. It's body looked fully developed, but its wings looked small and shriveled. Again, any ideas of what could be causing this, as well as how to correct it, would be appreciated!

indypartridge · « **Reply #1 on:** May 25, 2011, 01:03:41 pm »

Quote from: SarahM on May 25, 2011, 11:50:11 am

...its wings looked small and shriveled. Again, any ideas of what could be causing this, as well as how to correct it, would be appreciated!

Crumpled wings are caused by Deformed Wing Virus (DFW), which is usually spread by varroa mites. The treatment for DFW is to reduce your varroa mites.

forrestcav · « **Reply #2 on:** May 25, 2011, 03:09:39 pm »

Varroa was my first thought too. Hygenic behavior.

G3farms · « **Reply #3 on:** May 25, 2011, 04:01:01 pm »

DWV is my vote also.

BrentX · « **Reply #4 on:** May 25, 2011, 04:05:08 pm »

I had a hive last year that was doing something similar. I intentionally chose to do nothing more radical than regular powder sugar dustings. The hive did not survive the winter.

AllenF · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2011, 07:15:12 pm »

It is a good thing if the bees can clean up problems. Hygienic behavior is good.

Michael Bach · « **Reply #6 on:** May 25, 2011, 09:18:10 pm »

Mite counts have to be pretty high to see DWV. I bet you need to treat ASAP.

Treat with the chemical of choice. There are some nice "soft" chemisty's out there.

Shanevrr · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2011, 10:02:23 pm »

good eye!!!! get magnifing glass and check em out. If you have drone brood look at that. They love drone blood

SarahM · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2011, 11:29:02 pm »

Well, you all are confirming what I was beginning to suspect was at the root of this . . . varroa. I knew I was going to have to deal with this parasite, but wasn’t expecting to need to quite this soon as the hive isn’t even a month old yet. Live and learn. =) I guess one good thing out of it is that as some of you mentioned, the bees are showing hygienic behavior. That’s a plus!

Now with this new development and needing to do something about it, I have a couple more questions . . .

--For a newly installed package, what would be considered a low mite drop count? What would the drop count be that would begin to indicate a problem? As mentioned, a tray was put under the screen on the bottom board this morning so I am quite curious to see how many mites are on it by tomorrow morning. As of late afternoon today, there were three.

--I’ve done quite a bit of researching online today, and at this point, I plan to order Mite-Away Quick Strips tomorrow and treat the hive with them . . . has anyone used these yet and if so, what did you think of them?

--Do you have any other recommendations for treatment instead of the MAQS?

This is all new territory to me other than having simply ‘head knowledge’, so again, any advice would be appreciated!

wildbeekeeper · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2011, 11:39:51 pm »

Sarah,
MAQS are to be used on colonies with at least 6 frames of brood. if you colony has that then go ahead and use it. if not, you can use half a dose of Apiguard (25mg) or even do a sugar dusting once a week for four weeks to drop your mite count until you can use something a little "heavier".

A sugar dusting will also give you an idea what your mite load is like. I actual prefer to do an alcohol wash to determine mite load. Take about 300 bees (bout 1/2 cup) from a frame with brood (dont get the queen!) and put the bees in a jar filled about half way or more with 70% alcohol. shake the bees (this kills them and the mites). pour the alcohol and bees through a #8 mesh if you have it onto a white surface like a large coffee filter... the mesh keeps the bees from falling through and the mites will be washed onto the white surface where you can count them. generally 5-6 mites per 300 bees indicates you need to treat with something. anything lower than that is something you should keep a close eye on.

Do you do any drone comb management?

SarahM · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2011, 11:57:29 pm »

Thanks for sharing that with me, wildbeekeeper! I’m not sure how I missed that when doing the research today, and I am very glad to know it before getting/using the MAQS as the colony doesn’t have six frames of brood yet.

Thank you also for the other suggestions as well . . . I’ve got some thinking to do now.

No, I have not done any drone comb management . . . haven’t even begun to think along those lines yet, nor do I know much about it. I’m thinking that needs to change, though.

If doing a sugar dusting, how many mites would indicate that treatment is needed?

buzzbee · « **Reply #11 on:** May 26, 2011, 07:44:39 am »

With just one brood cycle finishing,it's hard to believe the mite count would be all that hi in this hive.Is this really a young bee or perhaps a worn out forager from another hive. Check your mite counts,you don't want to treat for a problem you may not have.
If these bees were hived only a month ago, and on new foundations,the mite count should still be relatively low.
Grab a tooth pick and start uncapping and pulling out some drone brood. If you have a mite problem,they will be easy to find on the drone brood.

wildbeekeeper · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2011, 09:45:58 am »

doing a sugar dusting will knock alot of the phoretic mites off of the bees. Since this is a new colony there really shouldnt be alot of mites as buzz bee stated. do three sugar dusting one week apart and that should knowck down any mite level enough until you treat. Chances are it was just a poorly developed bee. If you start seeing numberous bees in the hive with DWV then you know you may have an issue. Dont get too worked up on it unless you ar eseeing alot of WV. Fi you go with a 24 drop using a sticky board and have more than 25 or30 mites then you will want to treat. anything below that you are ok for now.

SarahM · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2011, 01:01:13 pm »

Thank you, buzzbee and wildbeekeeper, for both of your replies and for the information that was shared. It was greatly appreciated!

It seemed unusual to me, too, to think that the colony would already have numbers of Varroa high enough to be causing DWV. When researching the symptoms online, though, everything pointed to that so I assumed that was the cause.

And now, I’m just plain confused . . .

--The 24-hour mite count drop was 11

--Yesterday I saw a total of three bees outside of the hive with these shriveled wings (and I saw some of them being ejected from the hive, so I know they are not foragers from another hive with simply ragged wings.)

--This morning I saw another one removed from the hive along with this . . .

This was really a puzzle to me. What would cause this? What stage of development was this bee in?

The fully developed bee with shriveled wings that I saw removed this morning along with the above bee part, I brought inside as well as one that was still on the ground from yesterday . . . both were still alive. We looked them both over carefully with magnifiers for Varroa and didn’t see a one on either of them. Here’s a photo of both of them (sorry it's a little fuzzy) . . .

Buzzbee, as soon as it is warm enough outside again (it’s only in the 50’s today and drizzly), I’ll open up the hive and check some of the drone brood. I sure wish it was warm enough today as I am very curious, and a little anxious, to know what is happening in there.

Is there anything besides DWV that could be causing this? We just manipulated a few frames in the hive on Tuesday . . . could that have stressed the colony and led to the bees not fully developing?

sc-bee · « **Reply #14 on:** May 26, 2011, 01:38:58 pm »

You may just have a very good hygenic hive. A good sign. The pupae photo---- It could be when you manipulated the hive you killed some brood in burr comb, drones between frames etc. A good hygenic hive will clean them out. You said you manipulated tues basically just two days ago.

I know it is hard to decide as a new beekeeper but you need to decide on your phlisophy about chemical treatments. Just use a sugar powder dusting and do mite counts if you wish. I see from time to time a few bees with shrivel wings in my hives. If not in excess I take it as a good thing. We want varroa resistance so we have to have a few varroa at a level the bees can combat to build resistance.

Try varroa resistant queens when you requeen if your bees are not already.I would not panick over the few bees you are finding but it is great to be inquisitive and it is obvious you are eagar to learn. It is an inspiration for other beekeepers.

By the way I use the live and let die method --- I am very lazy compared to you :)

forrestcav · « **Reply #15 on:** May 26, 2011, 02:52:43 pm »

50's and dizzly. Chilled brood maybe and were removed right before emerging?

buzzbee · « **Reply #16 on:** May 26, 2011, 07:51:14 pm »

A little chilled brood was my thoughts too. Often the queen will lay more than the cluster can keep warm on a cool night. This may just be bees doing housekeeping.

L Daxon · « **Reply #17 on:** May 27, 2011, 12:32:18 am »

Sarah,

I agree with much of what was said above.
1) It seems awfully early in your hive's brief existence for it to have a serious case of varroa. When bees are packaged, the brood cycle stops for a while and stopping the brood cycle is one way of controlling varroa.
2) An 11 drop count in 24 hrs. is not a problem. Last year I had a 1st year package that got up to 120-140 drop in 24 hrs in the fall (which is when varroa tends to peak). I had dozens of DWV bees crawling around on the ground outside the hive and more on the frames inside as well.
I tried a couple of sugar dustings but it seemed to agitate the bees more than help them (probably my technique.) I finally used Apiguard (two treatments two weeks apart--really shouldn't use this time of year, at least not if you expect to take any honey off--but you may not be expecting to if it is a first year hive.) My hive came through the winter with flying colors, has already swarmed, and I haven't seen a DW bee so far this season.
3) Finding a pupae outside like that is no big deal. As was noted, probably one that got chilled during an inspection, or was accidentally squished during inspection, or just didn't develop right.
It is good to stay on top of thing but one or two or even three of anything does not usually a problem make.
Good luck on your new adventure. It is a great hobby/passtime/occupation.
Linda D

caticind · « **Reply #18 on:** May 27, 2011, 12:24:25 pm »

Your package may have come from a hive with high varroa loads - hence the bees with DWV - yet not actually have a varroa problem itself (since all you got in the package were the phoretic mites). No need to panic, but it couldn't hurt to do a sugar shake to knock some of the mites down before you have many more brood cycles.

You should take the presence of young adult bees or pupae OUTSIDE the hive as a very good sign, especially if they appear diseased. The fact that the bees are throwing them out means that the bees are responding hygienically to varroa and its vectored viruses. During spring buildup, when I know the varroa population must be growing, I question whether I should split from/reproduce the genes of a hive that doesn't have at least five new pupae tossed out front each day. This is how you should want your bees to respond - it addresses the problem directly, and also lets you know that you should have an eye out for the health of the colony.

wildbeekeeper · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2011, 07:24:08 am »

I agree with all of the above..... it can be hygienic behaviour, it may be DWV... I doubt its chilled brood being that you are down in Missouri and its so late in the year but it is possible. could be a lot of things! Thats the fun part of being a beekeeper....so many choices to make and YOU get to b the one to make them... kind of like playing a game! :) YOu know the saying... ask three beekeepers a questions and get 7 opinions.

As mentioned above, it if it makes you feel better do a sugar dusting to see what kind of count you have after that compare it with your 24 hour natural drop. 11 in 24 hours isnt bad at all, so i would tend to lean towards the chance that you probably have hygienic bees! Where did you get your bees from?

Take in all of these observations and everyones comments as learning opportunities and decide for yourself which avenue you feel most comfortable with, whether it is to leave them be for a month or to do a sugar dusting or two as preventive treatment with the intention using something like MAQS or Apiguard sown the road, or do nothing at all!

Keep us posted!

SarahM · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2011, 10:01:09 am »

Thank you all for the replies, the encouragement, and all of the insight shared! I sure am glad I found this forum . . . you all have been a great help!

With the reading that I’ve done about beekeeping and hearing about so many people losing hives, I just want to do as much as I can to help keep them alive and strong . . . and then try to learn as much as I can so that I can recognize what’s normal and what isn’t. Through this post and everything that you all have shared, I have certainly learned a lot!

It sounds like what is going on is nothing serious so I think I’ll just keep monitoring the hive and the mite drop count (which was only eight at my last check.) Keeping an eye on things and then just see what happens. I opened up the hive briefly yesterday (it was still too chilly to do any more than that) and all looked well in there. I didn’t see anything that sparked concern so was glad for that!

I’m also so pleased to hear that the bees appear to be hygienic! I hadn’t really put two and two together with equating the bees removing the deformed ones from the hive with hygienic behavior. That should really help the colony health if they are that way. So, thanks everyone for pointing that out.

Sc-bee . . . as far as my beekeeping philosophy, at this point, I would prefer to not treat unless it was necessary. If something significant came up that could/would eventually lead to the death of the colony, but could be resolved with treatment, I don’t have any qualms about treating then. So that’s where I am right now, but it could change as time goes on!

Wildbeekeeper . . . thank you for sharing all of that! I am not sure which apiary my bees came from as I ordered through a local beekeeper and supplier (Walk About Acres.) They shipped in 300+ packages of bees from California for local beekeepers.

Thanks everyone again for all of the help!