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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: funbee1 on January 06, 2013, 11:46:24 pm

Title: Treatment free
Post by: funbee1 on January 06, 2013, 11:46:24 pm
I just started bees last April. I want to be treatment free but I was overwhelmed with mites my first summer. I didn't really have a plan, so I'm trying to get ready for the up coming season.

So far I planned on powdered sugar treatments, dedicated drone frames, going to small cell and doing some splits to break the brood cycle.

Lots of people I talk to say it's impossible to go treatment free.

What do the guys who are treatment free suggest?

Thanks,
scott
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: RHBee on January 06, 2013, 11:58:24 pm
Scott I can only wish you luck.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 07, 2013, 12:04:58 am
All your beekeeping neighbours must also treat varroa mites or it wont work  :(


mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 07, 2013, 01:15:53 am
I have mites, but they haven't taken down any of my hives.  I do drone frame culling and I do poor swarm management  :( :-D

Splits and swarms really knock the mites down. 
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 07, 2013, 03:10:53 am

Splits and swarms really knock the mites down.  

Never



.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 07, 2013, 03:15:31 am
.



So far I planned on powdered sugar treatments, dedicated drone frames, going to small cell and doing some splits to break the brood cycle.

Lots of people I talk to say it's impossible to go treatment free.

What do the guys who are treatment free suggest?


Powder sugar is a vain job.

drone frame helps much

other your intended metiods are unpractical .


I can repeat only that "God helps those who help themselves".

I have had mites 30 years. They will not give to you mercy.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 07, 2013, 03:42:21 am
.


Why they do not use treatment free bees?


December 19, 2012 2:59 pm  •  By JESSICA HOLDMAN | Bismarck Tribune




North Dakota beekeepers will be able to use an insecticide to fight Varroa mites in their colonies next year.

The Environmental Protection Agency has approved a request from North Dakota Agriculture Commissioner Doug Goehring for a Section 18 exemption for amitraz.

“We’ve been waiting for this for years,” said Bonnie Woodworth, director at large of the North Dakota Bee Keepers Association.

Beekeepers will be able to use two amitraz strips on each frame in the hive where bee larvae develop. The strips must be removed two weeks before honey flow and cannot be placed in hives for more than 56 days.

The exemption allows for 726,000 strips and expires Nov. 21, 2013. The exemption can be renewed annually.

Woodworth said Varroa mites are the main cause of colony collapse disorder in bee hives. The mites feed on the haemolymph (blood) of the developing bees in the pupa stage, passing on viruses and bacteria. When the bees hatch they are sick and many die.

“If your bees are weakend you will get a lot less honey crop,” Woodworth said.

More than 35 percent of hives die during the year due to Varroa mites, Woodworth said.

Woodworth said she treats her hives with formic acid three times a year trying to control the mites. The exemption will give her another option.

“We always need different tools because the mites become resistant,” she said. “Any time you have some different treatment that helps tremendously.”

North Dakota is the leading producer of honey in the U.S. and produces more than 50 million pounds each year.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 07, 2013, 03:49:22 am
.


Journal of Apicultural Research  April 2011[/b]
 

Invasion of Varroa destructor mites into mite-free honey bee colonies under the controlled conditions of a military training area
 

Eva Frey, Hanna Schnell and Peter Rosenkranz

Abstract
The honey bee mite Varroa destructor can be spread between colonies by vertical transmission, particularly when heavily infested colonies are robbed by foraging bees from neighbouring hives. We quantified the invasion of V. destructor into mite free colonies on a military training area not accessible to other beekeepers. Ten "mite receiver colonies" continuously treated against V. destructor were placed at distances of one to 1.5 km from four heavily infested "mite donor colonies". Over a two month period from August to October, the population of bees, brood, and V. destructor in the donor colonies were estimated at three week intervals and the invasion of V. destructor into the receiver colonies was recorded every 7-12 days. During the experimental period, between 85 and 444 mites per colony were introduced into the receiver colonies. There were no significant differences in the invasion rates in relation to the distance between donor and receiver colonies. In total, 2,029 mites were found in the 10 receiver colonies, but these only correspond to 2.5% of the total mite population in the donor colonies at the start of the experiment. This means that the major part of the initial V. destructor population died together with the collapsed host colonies. Under natural conditions, a more benign behaviour should therefore be an adaptive strategy for V. destructor. From a practical perspective we could show that highly infested honey bee colonies present a substantial risk to already treated colonies up to distances of 1.5 km away.
 
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BeeMaster2 on January 07, 2013, 07:05:41 am
Find someone in your area that doesn't treat for mites and buy bees from them. I removed several old hives from buildings and a tool box that were never treated. They now have the genetics to deal with the mites and do real well. Went into this winter with 14 hives. So far they all look rear strong. Will see in the spring. My observation hive is building/growing every week. This is good for our area. They should start at the winter solstice and did. The out side frames have brood areas bigger than a football. In November there was none on the visable sides. I will find out how the rest are doing soon when I inspect them the next warm weekend day.
I have not treated with anything.
Jim
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Michael Bush on January 07, 2013, 09:56:01 am
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm)
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 07, 2013, 11:21:13 am
.
You should understand that hives losses exist even if varrioa is not present. Natural mortalitry level seems to be 15%.

I know guys who never loose a single hive in winter. Are they honest or not, I let them be.


Here is a practical research what happens with different treatment methods to hive mortality in Holland.
http://www.coloss.org/collaboration/wg1/workshop-denmark-2010/wg1-denmark-2010-powerpointpresentations/wg1-DK-%20VarroaTreatmentOverwinterMortality%20-%20Lennard%20Pisa.pdf/view (http://www.coloss.org/collaboration/wg1/workshop-denmark-2010/wg1-denmark-2010-powerpointpresentations/wg1-DK-%20VarroaTreatmentOverwinterMortality%20-%20Lennard%20Pisa.pdf/view)

Different methods are not so essential but do you execute them on time....

Hive mortality after treatments

Thymol timing too late mort. 24% .........on time 17%

Oxalic acid too late 22%...........on time 24%

Formic acid too late 19%.......0n time 3%


There were hundreds of hives in research and most of beekeepers made treatment too late.


What we can clearly see, formic acid treatment has been successfull, but not if it is too late.

Oxalic acid does not save the hive because mite has done its dirty work. Oxalic affects to next Autumn varroa level.


Even when treated, hive mortality is high. Without varroa "normal" mortality is about 15% but varroa gives 10% more even if you made treatments.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: little john on January 07, 2013, 12:04:29 pm
I will repeat here a reply I have given to Finski elsewhere:


The results are not at all straightforward - there were 225 beekeepers, using 130 different methods of varroa control.

The author recognises this: saying that because of the small groups involved (for each method), the results are not statistically significant (my words), and that they are not representative.

Also, winter losses from the control group (no treatment) are not included.

Although the study is partly entitled "honeybee mortality in winter", the treatments themselves were conducted between August and October.

I would be very hesitant in drawing any firm conclusions from those reported results.

LJ
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BjornBee on January 07, 2013, 12:39:05 pm
Lots of people I talk to say it's impossible to go treatment free.


I say it's impossible to go treatment free.  ;)


What do the guys who are treatment free suggest?


And anyone answering your question and suggesting they are treatment free is wrong.

Let me explain.....

EVERYONE treats their bees. You do that by the equipment choices you use, the management you use, and the IPM approach you use. There is NOTHING natural about a beekeeper keeping bees in a poorly designed and under insulated hive, no matter the management.

"Treatment free" is a poorly selected term once used to suggest "without chemicals". But what some see this as, is a call for doing nothing. Many hear about others using the term "treatment free" or taking a "hands off" approach, and they sit by doing nothing for their bees. Add in some folks ideology that you as the beekeeper is the bees worst enemy, and that opening the hive is so stressful your bees will crash, and beekeepers are confused as ever.

There are traditional chemicals, soft treatments, equipment choices, management ideology, genetics, and other things that go into the overall "treatment" of bees. Each is used with the goal that a certain outcome is derived.

If you are not using treatments directly focused on minimizing the impacts of mites, whether hard or soft treatments, then you better be treating your bees in other ways. Take genetics for instance. Many times, Italians do not shut down in a summer dearth. While Russians do. This directly affects mite counts when bees go broodless. Does the mites just go away? No. You do break the mite reproductive cycle. But the bees with no brood also spend more time grooming and dealing with other issues in the hive. And this break allows the mites to build, then when egg laying resumes, there is a mad rush of mites into cells, overloading the cells. this triggers a reaction of hygienic behavior of removing these overloaded cells, beyond what normally might have happened otherwise with a normal nonstop egg laying scenario.

"Treatment free", a "Hand-off" approach, and other suggestions that doing nothing is the best option, and one that will have you succeed in beekeeping, is faulty.

If you want to go "chemical free" that is one thing. Going "treatment free" is another.

Here is a bit I wrote recently: http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekramblings2013.html (http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekramblings2013.html)

It deals with the whole "hands off" approach to beekeeping, which is sometimes seen as "treatment free".
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BeeMaster2 on January 07, 2013, 12:52:13 pm
Michael B.,
I really appreciate your article. I am using all locally derived queens, mostly survivors, and they are doing much better than the bought queens I used in the past. I have not opened them is the last 2 months but every warm day, even my weakest hives (late fall swarms) are bring in lots of pollen and are putting on weight on the hives. I know someone is going to say "but you are in the south, but by this time I went from 5 hives, some never made it through the summer, to 1 hive that started several hives from this past year. I now have 14 strong hives with no treatment and none bought. Knock on wood.
Jim
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 07, 2013, 01:19:40 pm
I will repeat here a reply I have given to Finski elsewhere:


The results are not at all straightforward - there were 225 beekeepers, using 130 different methods of varroa control.

Treatment methods were under 10

.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Fox Creek on January 07, 2013, 01:59:35 pm
You asked about small cell, so here is another opinion. There has been a debate about cell size. You can read all kinds reports, studies, opinions, whatever. There are those who started out with large cell and tried to convert to small cell. They may have found small cell did not work for them and will jump up and down screaming, "your a fool to think small cell works!"

On thing is for sure. IT HARMS NOTHING TO GO WITH SMALL CELL!!!  I started out with small cell and so far so good. No Mites. I have only been in this for Little less than a year, however I read about new beekeepers having to deal with mites almost from the get go.

Do yourself a favor. Again, it will harm nothing and could be you end up not having to deal with mite problems or adding chemicals to your hives....read, "The Idiots guide to Beekeeping" and "The Practical Beekeeper". 
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Kathyp on January 07, 2013, 02:20:15 pm
i wouldn't bother with small cell, but then i don't see the point in forcing the bees onto any pre-formed cell size.  do it if you want, but remember that you still need to keep a close eye on them.

your best bet is to try to find local survivor stock, and the best way to do that is to go after swarms and dig hives out of walls.  not all those you find will be good stock, but the odds are better than in those you buy unless you can find a local source.

whatever you do, not all hives survive.  they don't survive in the wild, and they won't in your yard. 
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 07, 2013, 02:32:58 pm
Small cells work for a year, then the mites adapt  :evil:  :-\

and the infection levels rise again to the same level as bigger cells  :(

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Fox Creek on January 07, 2013, 02:50:19 pm
i wouldn't bother with small cell, but then i don't see the point in forcing the bees onto any pre-formed cell size.  do it if you want, but remember that you still need to keep a close eye on them.

your best bet is to try to find local survivor stock, and the best way to do that is to go after swarms and dig hives out of walls.  not all those you find will be good stock, but the odds are better than in those you buy unless you can find a local source.

whatever you do, not all hives survive.  they don't survive in the wild, and they won't in your yard. 

Start out "forcing" the bees onto small cell. After you have built comb, you can place empty frames between these as a guide. This worked well for me and now about half my frames are natural foundationless. Trying to get the bees to build on foundationless without any kind of guide could be more difficult.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 07, 2013, 03:31:18 pm
my 2013 experiment :
I have melted down the comb from cutouts and pulled aluminum window screen through it to provide base foundation from which they can decide cell size
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 08, 2013, 05:10:08 am
Hmmmm....how do the feral bees living in trees survive without somebody pouring oxalic acid on them?  :? :? :?
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 08, 2013, 05:49:31 am
Hmmmm....how do the feral bees living in trees survive without somebody pouring oxalic acid on them?  :? :? :?

They don't.

Feral hives send 2 swarms a year. If they do not die, the earth will be soon full of bees, and it should have been full allready million years ago.

So 2 swarms means 200% more a year....

What happens in ten years when beehives propagate 3 fold every year

In 10 years 1 million colonies will be 20 billion

1   3   9   27   81   243   729   2 187   6 561   19 683
.

And after 21 years the colony amount will be 1 162 261 467 000 000
 = 1 million billion
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 08, 2013, 06:40:38 am
.
Why positive persons do not make miracles?

That was a question in our radio today
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BjornBee on January 08, 2013, 08:50:36 am
Hmmmm....how do the feral bees living in trees survive without somebody pouring oxalic acid on them?  :? :? :?

They don't.

Feral hives send 2 swarms a year. If they do not die, the earth will be soon full of bees, and it should have been full allready million years ago.

So 2 swarms means 200% more a year....

What happens in ten years when beehives propagate 3 fold every year

In 10 years 1 million colonies will be 20 billion

1   3   9   27   81   243   729   2 187   6 561   19 683
.

And after 21 years the colony amount will be 1 162 261 467 000 000
 = 1 million billion

I agree.

I have taken part in various feral bee studies. A few things we found were the further you get from the impact of humans, the fewer the bee colonies. Bees are hard to find in deep woods. They also are inflicted by the many problems that any other colonies have, and they die over winter. Bees thrive in areas where hedgerows, unused fields, roadsides weeds, and other land once cleared by humans, allow weeds to grow. But these are usually where beekeepers are also.

Of course many people WANT to believe magical things about feral bees. Some beekeepers have been promoting this for twenty years now. But yet, can anyone really show a survivor line of bees? We can show some improvement between mass produced weak genetic commercially produced bees and some other breeding operations, which is a good thing. But that is a different set of apples and oranges. What we do not have, unless you buy into some very inflated marketing and fluff, is a bunch of "true" survivor bees. You would think that we would all have them after all these years.

I laugh everytime I hear of some beekeeper thinking he is getting "survivor" bees from some barn or tree, in areas where beekeepers are plenty.

Think about it......the story line as always is "How do the feral bees living in trees survive without someone pouring oxalic acid on them?" And yet beekeepers have been collecting these "special" bees for 20 years. And nobody says "How do such and such bees survive without someone pouring oxalic acid on them?"  We always resort back to the bees that nobody seemingly has, and need to make comments about "survivor" bees that we always assume are thriving and been living in that tree for many years. Yet I challenge anyone to tell me where they can get survivor bees that need no help and can thrive as well as some suggest they magically do in the wild?

While I do not use oxalic acid, I think that many things go into helping your bees survive. That may be by equipment options, management options, and other factors intertwined with better genetics.

But the idea that feral bees, or any other bee, are at a point where they can survive on their own, is a message that many new beekeepers are finding to be incorrect. Of course, there are more than a few selling books, a certain ideology, or a certain hive setup, to come to your rescue when all that "I collected ferals and my bees will automatically thrive" fails. I've done it all, vinegar machines, FGMO, smallcell, feral bees, etc. And I have heard so many claims that if you use this comb, this hive, this treatment, this bee, that all your problems will go away. 

Of course, as many say, each beekeeper will do what they want, chase a dream, and go from one thing to another. And I will laugh as some beekeeper with less than a years worth of experience touts their success giving credit to some way of keeping bees.

Then I'll type out some long winded reply, while knowing that it makes no difference to me what some beekeeper across the country does or does not do. I'll ask myself why do I care if someone uses one hive or another? I'm not selling books. I'm not selling one ideology over another.

And so it goes........
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Fox Creek on January 08, 2013, 01:37:21 pm
Hmmmm....how do the feral bees living in trees survive without somebody pouring oxalic acid on them?  :? :? :?

They don't.

Feral hives send 2 swarms a year. If they do not die, the earth will be soon full of bees, and it should have been full allready million years ago.

So 2 swarms means 200% more a year....

What happens in ten years when beehives propagate 3 fold every year

In 10 years 1 million colonies will be 20 billion

1   3   9   27   81   243   729   2 187   6 561   19 683
.

And after 21 years the colony amount will be 1 162 261 467 000 000
 = 1 million billion

I agree.

I have taken part in various feral bee studies. A few things we found were the further you get from the impact of humans, the fewer the bee colonies. Bees are hard to find in deep woods. They also are inflicted by the many problems that any other colonies have, and they die over winter. Bees thrive in areas where hedgerows, unused fields, roadsides weeds, and other land once cleared by humans, allow weeds to grow. But these are usually where beekeepers are also.

Of course many people WANT to believe magical things about feral bees. Some beekeepers have been promoting this for twenty years now. But yet, can anyone really show a survivor line of bees? We can show some improvement between mass produced weak genetic commercially produced bees and some other breeding operations, which is a good thing. But that is a different set of apples and oranges. What we do not have, unless you buy into some very inflated marketing and fluff, is a bunch of "true" survivor bees. You would think that we would all have them after all these years.

I laugh everytime I hear of some beekeeper thinking he is getting "survivor" bees from some barn or tree, in areas where beekeepers are plenty.

Think about it......the story line as always is "How do the feral bees living in trees survive without someone pouring oxalic acid on them?" And yet beekeepers have been collecting these "special" bees for 20 years. And nobody says "How do such and such bees survive without someone pouring oxalic acid on them?"  We always resort back to the bees that nobody seemingly has, and need to make comments about "survivor" bees that we always assume are thriving and been living in that tree for many years. Yet I challenge anyone to tell me where they can get survivor bees that need no help and can thrive as well as some suggest they magically do in the wild?

While I do not use oxalic acid, I think that many things go into helping your bees survive. That may be by equipment options, management options, and other factors intertwined with better genetics.

But the idea that feral bees, or any other bee, are at a point where they can survive on their own, is a message that many new beekeepers are finding to be incorrect. Of course, there are more than a few selling books, a certain ideology, or a certain hive setup, to come to your rescue when all that "I collected ferals and my bees will automatically thrive" fails. I've done it all, vinegar machines, FGMO, smallcell, feral bees, etc. And I have heard so many claims that if you use this comb, this hive, this treatment, this bee, that all your problems will go away.  

Of course, as many say, each beekeeper will do what they want, chase a dream, and go from one thing to another. And I will laugh as some beekeeper with less than a years worth of experience touts their success giving credit to some way of keeping bees.

Then I'll type out some long winded reply, while knowing that it makes no difference to me what some beekeeper across the country does or does not do. I'll ask myself why do I care if someone uses one hive or another? I'm not selling books. I'm not selling one ideology over another.

And so it goes........

Small cell did not work for you. I understand. You do not understand, I never said anything other than what I was doing. Success was never a claim. I did say the bees built comb on the small cell without any problems! I know you do not want to hear this, I know its a downer, still, its true. I wonder why you want to attack? You only sound bitter. So far I'm happy with results I have. I know of new beekeepers, on large cell,  who have new hives crash due to mites. This within weeks of starting out. All I have stated is, so far so good for me. No Mites! Could be, come May, I could look into my hives and find mite infestation! I will scream and then try to figure out what to do next. You tell me, What is wrong with A new beekeeper starting out with small cell frames? Not only do the bees do well building comb, they also are the cheapest frames Mann Lake sells.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 08, 2013, 02:33:35 pm
What is wrong with A new beekeeper starting out with small cell frames?

Nothing!

But some people just want to help you and you re bees get a good start and are trying to steer you in the right direction and make sure you have the right information so you're bees will bee and stay healthy.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Fox Creek on January 08, 2013, 03:30:21 pm
What is wrong with A new beekeeper starting out with small cell frames?

Nothing!

But some people just want to help you and you re bees get a good start and are trying to steer you in the right direction and make sure you have the right information so you're bees will bee and stay healthy.

mvh edward  :-P

Thank you Edward of Sweden! I'm always open to advise and like most, I will move in the direction of what works. I'm new to all of this and never intended to get so involved. Because of Varroa, I almost didn't get into beekeeping. I mean, it just didn't look good! After reading a couple of books claiming success around the common problems, I decided to give it a try. So here I am.

PS.   love the flailing, angry little guy! ...perhaps more appropriate for another poster.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BjornBee on January 08, 2013, 03:56:39 pm
 :lau:

Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 08, 2013, 04:24:05 pm
So 2 swarms means 200% more a year....

What happens in ten years when beehives propagate 3 fold every year

In 10 years 1 million colonies will be 20 billion

1   3   9   27   81   243   729   2 187   6 561   19 683

Thanks for the math lesson there.  I guess that explains why I haven’t had to treat yet. ;)  
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BjornBee on January 08, 2013, 05:00:42 pm
So 2 swarms means 200% more a year....

What happens in ten years when beehives propagate 3 fold every year

In 10 years 1 million colonies will be 20 billion

1   3   9   27   81   243   729   2 187   6 561   19 683

Thanks for the math lesson there.  I guess that explains why I haven’t had to treat yet. ;)  


Hey Bluebee, Finski was not explaining why you have not needed to treat your bees. He was trying to explain your incorrect assumption or suggestion that all feral bees survive without oxalic acid treatments. He was saying that feral colonies have a high mortality rate. I know they survive with about a 10% success rate. he was explaining that without this high mortality rate, we would be over run with bees. Not hard to understand.

I laughed off the last person that claimed they did nothing more then express their opinion on smallcell, even though their first post stated such items as beekeepers jumping up and down, and placing words in beekeepers mouths preempting any negative response to smallcell by saying they will say one thing or another. But it was not promoting.......  :-D

But come on, Finski's comments were spot on. And yours were.....not! Unless you have some magical powers and actually know that all feral bees make it. Let me know if your going down that road. It might keep this interesting.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 08, 2013, 05:21:01 pm
I'm new to all of this and never intended to get so involved. Because of Varroa

Varroa isn't a problem as long as you keep track of it and treat it using simple easy tested methods.

Untreated it will take your bees and your neighbors bees, sad  :'( beecause its easily treated   ;)

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 08, 2013, 05:25:58 pm
without this high mortality rate, we would be over run with bees

:bee: But what a wonderful world it would bee with all those bees  :bee:

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 08, 2013, 05:35:24 pm
But come on, Finski's comments were spot on. And yours were.....not! Unless you have some magical powers and actually know that all feral bees make it. Let me know if your going down that road. It might keep this interesting.
OK, fair enough.  As I said in an earlier post, drone culling and poor swarm management (periods of no brood) has worked for me so far.  I’m not opposed to considering other options if my existing methods fail at some point; which they might.  I do need to do better with my swarm management!

Edward, with so many bees, they might have replaced the mosquito. :-D
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 08, 2013, 06:00:25 pm
and poor swarm management (periods of no brood) has worked for me so far.  I’m not opposed to considering other options if my existing methods fail at some point;

Sounds bad.... no brood during swarming period. It means that

- laying queen escapes with prior swarm and the foraging power vanish with it

- it takes 3 weeks that a new queen starts to lay. It takes 3 weeks more = 6 weeks that new bees start to born in the hive
So you have missed a swarm and 3 weeks' brood/new worker generation.
  The hive has not much able tp forage honey

- mites are in capped brood and they go into new brood after 4 weeks from swarming.

- that brood gap is not a big loss to mites. It is only 2-3 weeks delay in propagation

- Swarming is much more  bigger harm than normal mite load

************

If you make artificial swarm on time when you see queen cells, you save laying queen, swarm bees and prood.

.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 08, 2013, 06:16:49 pm
Maybe I should just give up bee keeping and go into politics. :)
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: iddee on January 08, 2013, 09:04:48 pm
Maybe you should quit both and just go fishing. It sounds like these guys think you are all wet anyway.   :fishhit: :lau:
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 09, 2013, 12:26:36 am
It’s probably a good thing my bees don’t read the forums. :laugh:  I’ve got more bees than I know what to do with and I don’t treat, so maybe I should go on a fishing trip.  How are the fish down there in North Carolina? :)
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 09, 2013, 03:36:58 am
It’s probably a good thing my bees don’t read the forums. :laugh:  I’ve got more bees than I know what to do with and I don’t treat,  ? :)

What to do with bees?  Have you heard about honey production?

To get a good yield join hives when main yield starts

There is a big distance from keeping hives alive and to harvest honey yields.

Keeping alive bees you do not need much knowledge because bees take care themselves.
.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 09, 2013, 04:15:27 am
I sure miss TBeek on threads like these  :)

And if I claim the sky is blue, I suppose that is wrong to.  :lau:
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 09, 2013, 04:25:14 am


And if I claim the sky is blue, I suppose that is wrong to.   :'(

It is gray here and I suppose that it is now black there
.

time is here now 10:28 = midday
Sun rises  here 09.18. and goes down  15.37
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 09, 2013, 04:53:24 am
LOL, Finski, you got me on that one!   

The sky is pretty black here right now too.   
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BjornBee on January 09, 2013, 08:59:44 am
It’s probably a good thing my bees don’t read the forums. :laugh:  I’ve got more bees than I know what to do with and I don’t treat,.... 

Ah, a true politician. You say much, without really saying anything.

Got more bees than you know what to do with, means what? That could be one colony or 25 colonies. That could mean you simply are ignorant and are scratching your head trying to determine what to do with your bees. Like with having no plans for the coming season. All this could be true whether you treat or not.

Did you say "I do not treat, and have never lost a hive?" No you did not. Of course then you could just say as others "I've lost bees, but not due to mites"  ;) That seems popular.

So what does your statement really say? It may imply for some that you do not treat, you have never lost a colony, and your bees have multiplied to astronomical levels that you have bees coming out your ears.

But we both know you never said that. Good play indeed!

For myself.........I do not treat either, or at least in the matter of chemical treatments I do not treat. But have I lost a colony to mites from time to time.....absolutely! I lose perhaps 10-15% of my colonies for various problems, like mites, every year. I guess I could rationalize that it was for other reasons, then I could sell more bees claiming to have the ultimate survivor line of mite survival bees, or some magical way of keeping bees in a certain hive that has completely handled mites 100%. But that would be a lie.

But we do not need to worry about you making any false statements. Your statement is subjective, and could be read many different ways. You are a seasoned debater.  ;)  You know how to mince your words. Unfortunately, they have no real meaning for those actually knowing what they read.  ;)

The bad thing is, others will read such comments, see others doing nothing with their bees while claiming wild success, then do nothing, and will lose bees. The message is clear.....the whole problem with mites was a fabrication of evil types out to sell you something. There is NO mite problems. Never was, never will be. There were never mites to begin with. Just do nothing with your bees, and you too will have success.

Wish I would of thought of that earlier.  ;)

Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Robo on January 09, 2013, 12:37:01 pm
my 2013 experiment :
I have melted down the comb from cutouts and pulled aluminum window screen through it to provide base foundation from which they can decide cell size

I think you will be disappointed with the results.    Bees do not draw comb off of flat surfaces by choice.   Watch bees draw comb and you will see they work down.   I would expect you will get all kinds of wacky comb being drawn between the two sheets of screen.   You would be much better served with just starter strips,  bees don't need a foundation,  they now how to build comb  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 09, 2013, 05:19:14 pm
But do they know how to build 4' long jumbo comb without crisscrossing the box if he went foundationless!  What are the odds of 4' x 18" foundationless comb staying in one piece without some serious mechanical support like metal screen?  I've watched bees hanging down from the top of a frame and building comb too.  It sure doesn't look natural to build comb on flat surfaces, but they do it by the millions on conventional foundation all the time.  The only difference I see here is his foundation isn't imprinted with cells.  Heck I have do idea rather it will work or not, but my pure guess is yes.  I got a 50 : 50 chance of being right on this one :-D
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 09, 2013, 05:34:29 pm
Bjorn, are you going to vote for me as a politician?  OK, let me clarify a little.  I have about 30 hives at the moment.  I do loose hives from time to time due to loss of a queen, robbing, freezing, and operator error.  I also have mites but I have not found any deadouts with any significant number of dead mites on the floor.  I have large cell and small cell colonies but I am not claiming any magic in the cell sizes.  Like you I have losses I would estimate at about 10% to 15% a year.  No magic here.  All I was claiming is that I have a fairly simple treatment free regime I’ve been following and so far it has been enough to deal with MY mites in MY climate.  The original poster (from Michigan) was asking about ideas for treatment free, and that’s what I gave him.  From there on it was the typical assertions that I don’t know what I’m talking about.  
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 09, 2013, 05:40:58 pm
If it’s hopeless for me and my bees ( :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:), then how much Oxalic acid do I need to dump in each hive?  I got a 10lb (4.5kg) box of Oxalic acid in the mail today. 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Wood%20Floors/OxalicAcid1_zpsc2a2039c.jpg)

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Wood%20Floors/OxalicAcid2_zps0506daa6.jpg)
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 09, 2013, 06:50:51 pm
.
For 30 hives  mix 1 kg sugar + 1 kg warm water +75 g OA

then trickle to each bee filled frame seam 4 ml that mixture and 5 ml to 2 boxe hive seams.

To one box hive 40 ml and to 2 box hive 50 ml

Mites drop down during next month.

Do the job when temp is 0C - +5C
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 09, 2013, 08:28:12 pm
The surface is not flat. It would be more correct to say,"With this method the surface is in the control of the beekeeper."
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Robo on January 09, 2013, 09:25:32 pm
But do they know how to build 4' long jumbo comb without crisscrossing the box if he went foundationless! 
No, it is unnatural for them build comb that way.   Instinct tells them it will not be strong.
Quote
What are the odds of 4' x 18" foundationless comb staying in one piece without some serious mechanical support like metal screen?

0% chance.   Anything over ~12" wide they will start to curve for strength.  You would have to constantly cut the curve and straighten as they build.  They will not build comb off the screen as a core.  The only way to do it foundationless would be with horizontal support wires that they will draw over.

Quote
  I've watched bees hanging down from the top of a frame and building comb too.  It sure doesn't look natural to build comb on flat surfaces, but they do it by the millions on conventional foundation all the time.  The only difference I see here is his foundation isn't imprinted with cells.
The imprints are key,  it tricks them into believe that it the start of comb.   Do you really think folks would be spending $1000+ dollar on foundation mills if it was as simple as giving them sheets of wax?  Duragilt is the prime example,  the bees will never build good comb on the core if the wax coating (with impressions) is removed.

Quote
Heck I have do idea rather it will work or not, but my pure guess is yes.  I got a 50 : 50 chance of being right on this one :-D

Ya, just as much as I have a 50:50 chance of winning the next mega lottery because I guess I will  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Robo on January 09, 2013, 09:27:20 pm
The surface is not flat. It would be more correct to say,"With this method the surface is in the control of the beekeeper."

And the cell size pattern you are giving them is?
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 09, 2013, 10:26:36 pm

A question, I am persuaded by your post, I must now address. I had been fishing for that post for a while, figured it would come sooner, yours was the first rational, experienced address I have come across on the matter. Of course I will still try to rough a couple up w/ sandpaper and try, but I guess I have a foundation mold to purchase :)
Thanks,
Drew
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Robo on January 09, 2013, 10:36:15 pm
By all means try it, there is no better way to learn than first hand.   I just would not suggest investing a lot of time and resources into making a lot of it.   As far as molds go,  I made many attempts at building molds and all ended in disappointment.   Pick up a copy of Keeping Bees by John Vivian he discusses building a foundation mold.  Of course reading his explanation makes it sound like a piece of cake, but my attempts proved otherwise.    The book is actually a pretty good read.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 10, 2013, 02:22:33 am
Thanks for the dribbling recipe Finski.

Do you know how Oxalic acid works to kill the mites?  I understand it was classified as an insecticide by our government at one point, but why does it kill bugs?  Does it eat away at their skeleton, plug up their breathing pores, mess with their digestive system?  What makes Oxalic acid bad for the mites?

Do you use warm water for your dribbling or does it matter? 
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 09:05:03 am
Do you know how Oxalic acid works to kill the mites?  I understand it was classified as an insecticide by our government at one point, but why does it kill bugs?  Does it eat away at their skeleton, plug up their breathing pores, mess with their digestive system?  What makes Oxalic acid bad for the mites?Do you use warm water for your dribbling or does it matter?

It dissolves the soft tissue parts of the mite, eyes mouth, joints and so on, Its important to get the dosage right or it won't have the right effect.
To weak and it wont kill the mites, to strong and you will blind and harm the bees.
The best way to make sure you get it right is to make a large batch, 30 to 50 hives worth, its cheep so the excess will not cost much.
Warm it to hive temperature so you don't chill the bees unnecessarily, a thermos or a cooler with plastic bottles filled with hot water will keep it warm under transportation to bee yards.
Make sure the hive is brood less or you'll miss the mites.
Don't over do it, treat once correctly.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 10, 2013, 04:01:18 pm
Thanks Edward.  So it’s a mechanical destruction of the mites, I like it. :evil:   Why do you mix sugar into the solution?  It seems if you do that, the bees will eat some of it and that might not be good for the bees internally.  Why not just mix Oxalic acid with water and dribble that?

Edward what time of year do you dribble the acid?  Do you use Finski's proportions too?
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2013, 04:14:14 pm
Thanks Edward.  So it’s a mechanical destruction of the mites, I like it. :evil:   Why do you mix sugar into the solution?  It seems if you do that, the bees will eat some of it and that might not be good for the bees internally.  Why not just mix Oxalic acid with water and dribble that?

Edward what time of year do you dribble the acid?  Do you use Finski's proportions too?


That oxalic dripling method was invented 1997 by Italian bee professor Nanetti.

Then during years 1998-2006 European Varroa Group tested the best varroa killing methods.

Why why why and why.............. I have written perhaps 7-8 years here why, and it has not much brough results among these "do nothing guys".

Same in England. Guys bever read original research papers what varroa group published. Guys intevented at once they own recipes (like ypou) and it based on nothing-

I asked why? - Because ordinary Englishman cannot do according good advice. He must do it with own way.

My opinion is that those guys are not able to read and understand English. I must for example advice to to weigh the acid: By a accurate digital balance! 10 dollars!

Canada accepted the Varroa Group advices last year, 10 years later than Europe.

Why, - who knows. America wants to do its own researches and they do not want to know about EU Varroa Group results.


 When guys here advice "do nothing", all say HIP HURRAY and no one ask why

Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 10, 2013, 04:26:38 pm
Guys intevented at once they own recipes (like ypou) and it based on nothing-

Cool down Finski, I didn't invent any recipes for Oxalic acid (yet), I was planning on using yours if I experiment.  Do you have a short answer to WHY you add sugar to your recipe? 

I'm curious about the sugar aspect of this recipe because it suggests the bees need to consume the Oxalic acid to be effective?  Doesn't it seem that way to you?  if not, then why add sugar?
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: bemused on January 10, 2013, 04:31:18 pm
I think the problem with trying to go treatment free is two fold:

1. if you have a small number of hives you're quite likely to end up with no bees. I read a study from Sweden that said the mortality rate for none treated hives in the first year was 75%. Also I seem to remember reading on Randy Oliver's blog that he lost the majority of his hives when he went treatment free.

2. Even if you have a population of resistant bees if queens from those hives breed with none resistance drones you may end up with a non resistant queen again.

I suspect that you have more chance going down the non treatment route the more hives you have. With fewer hives you'll struggle to sustain the method.

Good luck, going treatment free is possible but it isn't a easy route.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2013, 04:35:49 pm


Cool down Finski, I didn't invent any recipes for Oxalic acid (yet), I was planning on using yours if I experiment.  Do you have a short answer to WHY you add sugar to your recipe?  



Syrup makes bees dirty. Bees try to clean themselves and rub the syrup everywhere onto their body surface. I have seen it how they do it.
Even couple of days later you may see small droplets of syrup on bees wings. In cluster bees spread the acid syrup quite soon to each other.

Bees do not lick acid syrup with their tongue. Otherwise it will vanish in few hours.

There is difference if syrup has 40% sugar. The result is worse than with 50%.  60% is too stiff and does not spreads so easily.

Here are the main results from the big research
http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/04435/index.html?lang=en (http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/04435/index.html?lang=en)

Canada: http://manitobabee.org/hive/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/2011_recs_Feb15_final1.pdf (http://manitobabee.org/hive/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/2011_recs_Feb15_final1.pdf)

MORE http://www.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/menzel/rademacher.html (http://www.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/menzel/rademacher.html)

.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 05:16:47 pm
Why do you mix sugar into the solution?  It seems if you do that, the bees will eat some of it and that might not be good for the bees internally.  Why not just mix Oxalic acid with water and dribble that?Edward what time of year do you dribble the acid?  Do you use Finski's proportions too?

I´m a bit ashamed to say I don't know  :roll:

My guess would bee that it makes them groom one an other spreading it throughout the hive.

Our local beekeeping club buys it and we have a sour old fart that mixes large batches, so the mixture is right. We give it without cost to members from 1 to 200+ hives.

 We have just gone through the first wave of varoa six years ago with heavy losses due to small wrongly mixed batches and people beeing ostriches sticking the heads in the sand and pretending nothing was wrong and not treating with death and destruction for their´s and their neighbors bees.

The lazy ones have replaced their bees and let them die again and now given up  ;)

The beekeepers that are left have been dwindling in numbers but things are turning around and we have 11 wannabees registered to the new bee school in the spring, We haven't advertised the course yet  :-D so things are looking up  ;)

3.2%  75gram Oxalic acid+1liter water+1kg sugar = 1.66liter = to 50 hives (shelf life two weeks) 30-40oC warm
mix to liquid drip over the rows of bees, on the bees, not empty frames
20-25ml small hive
25-30ml normal hive
30-35ml large hive

Try not to get it on wooden hive parts
acid in the water! not water in acid!!!

The sour old guy is really a nice guy that helps all beekeepers to look after their bees, this is important that we all treat our bees so we keep the mite count down, and we all will have hive full of honey and healthy bees  :bee:

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 05:30:02 pm
what time of year do you dribble the acid

In the fall when there is no more brood left in the hive, this is important beecause the last brood cells are crammed full of mites, it can bee beneficial removing the last frame of capt brood, and lots of mites.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 05:40:21 pm
I asked why? - Because ordinary Englishman cannot do according good advice. He must do it with own way.Canada accepted the Varroa Group advices last year, 10 years later than Europe. Why, - who knows. America wants to do its own researches and they do not want to know about EU Varroa Group results.  When guys here advice "do nothing", all say HIP HURRAY and no one ask why

 :-D It´s the same here in Sweden, maybe we can invent a better wheel  :-\ :roll: :-D :lau:

Hmmmm is a round wheel the best construction, I think we need to gather a comity to discuss the best way to tackle this idea, don't wait up this could take a while  :brian:  :deadhorse:

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2013, 05:50:37 pm

20-25ml small hive
25-30ml normal hive
30-35ml large hive


mvh edward  :-P

your dosage advices are too small. They are not from EU Varroa Group

It is one box hive 40 ml and to two box hive 50 ml

to smaller hives 4 ml/frames gap

.

.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 06:02:56 pm
20-25ml small hive
25-30ml normal hive
30-35ml large hive
your dosage advices are too small. They are not from EU Varroa Group It is one box hive 40 ml and to two box hive 50 ml to smaller hives 4 ml/frames gap

I took them from the official Swedish beekeepers beekeeping site and books on sicknesses, parasites, pests in beehives parts of witch have been translated from finish books.

I stand by my numbers till the Swedish beekeeping society revises them.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 10, 2013, 06:56:44 pm
Thank you Edward and Finski, that was some useful advice with some explanations behind them too.  X:X
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 07:07:03 pm
Don't forget to use acid proof gloves and safety eye wear. :police:

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2013, 07:14:17 pm

I stand by my numbers till the Swedish beekeeping society revises them.

mvh edward  :-P

DO IT!
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: BlueBee on January 10, 2013, 07:34:36 pm
Actually that 10lb (4.5kg) box of Oxalic acid is for bleaching some hardwood floors I’m rehabbing.  I am familiar with the need for protection when working with the stuff.  I guess it attacks the kidneys or something and can cause precipitation of stones in the human body.  My brother had some kidney stones and they were extremely painful!  I treat the stuff with great respect and the concentrations in bleaching floors is MUCH higher than the recipe you guys have provided for the bees.

Like I’ve said, right now I just rely on basic things like drone culling (and…OK…luck) to deal with the mites.  If they do get out of hand at some point, I would like to have more tools available to deal with them.  Thanks again for the info.

Now let me ask for your opinions about oxalic acid vaporizers.  Is that method better or worse for killing mites?  

To me, it seems like dribbling would be MUCH safer to the bee keeper and the acid concentrations in dribbling are pretty low, that is what I find more appealing.    
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 07:56:44 pm
Now let me ask for your opinions about oxalic acid vaporizers.  Is that method better or worse for killing mites? To me, it seems like dribbling would be MUCH safer to the bee keeper and the acid concentrations in dribbling are pretty low, that is what I find more appealing.

I haven't met anyone that recommends vaporization because of the need to use a gas mask + it take along time to treat a whole bee yard.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 08:00:00 pm
I stand by my numbers till the Swedish beekeeping society revises them.
DO IT!

Because it works with the recommended dosage levels I don't think we need to change the dosage at this time.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 11, 2013, 05:11:27 am


Because it works with the recommended dosage levels I don't think we need to change the dosage at this time.

mvh edward  :-P

I found an original research results of European Union Varroa Group

Oxalic acid treatment by trickling against Varroadestructor: recommendationsfor use in central Europe
 andunder temperate climateconditions  J.D. Charrière, A. Imdorf (2002)
 Last modification: 10.01.2007

The Swish use 2,8% OA instead of many other countries 3,5%.  Italy uses 4,2%

The volume is the same. Its duty is to make bees dirty and keep the acid contacted to mites enough long time.

The original recipe is http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en (http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en)

30 ml to small hives
40 ml to normal hives
50 ml to large hives ( = 2 box)

Maximum 4 ml per frame gap and to 2 box hives 5 ml

I have talked personally with our Seppo Korpela what this means and he sais that Switzerland has lower percentage but in tests it gives almost same results. He was in EU varroa group as a researcher.


In Finland measures has bees the same 10 years. But something is happening now. Varroa has become more dangerous than 10 years ago.
It is said that assistant viruses are more lethal than 10 years ago. Lots of hives have died for varroa during last 3 years in very experienced beekeepers' yards.  I have treated my hives 25 years. First year it  was 1987 a swarm. Stuff was Perizin and it is used still whne researcher want to know how many living mites the hive still have.

Mite drop after treatment is difficult because dead mites are in empty comb cells after 5 months.

Oxalic acid alone is not enough to save hives. Late summer treatment with thymol or with formic acid is more inportant to save winter bees.
When these treatments are not successful, OA gives the final hit on mites and advantage is to bee seen next autumn.

But you see the results, when you give OA but you cannot see, how many living mites you have over winter.  You may get 10 mites, 500 mites or 1000 mites.  As guys say, varroa drop before treatment does not tell what will happen.


Canada is very experienced in Formic acid treatments but they have met heavy losses with mites. Reason is that treatment is not allways as successful as promised 96%. It is sometimes 80% or 70% and it is too much.  Mite doubles itself in a month.


.


Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: RHBee on January 11, 2013, 09:37:02 am
Formic acid treatment was very hard on my bee population this last fall. The major difficulty was timing treatment with the recommended temperature range.  I was looking for something softer. It appears that oxalic acid is the ticket. If I understand all that I have read it would seen that trickling is best in fall, when broodless, and vaporization in spring over a three week time spread.
Is this a correct statement?
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Robo on January 11, 2013, 10:15:47 am
Formic acid treatment was very hard on my bee population this last fall. The major difficulty was timing treatment with the recommended temperature range.  I was looking for something softer. It appears that oxalic acid is the ticket. If I understand all that I have read it would seen that trickling is best in fall, when broodless, and vaporization in spring over a three week time spread.
Is this a correct statement?

I have never done trickle, only vaporization.   It is my understanding that trickling more than one time can do damage to the bees,  where as vaporization can be done up to 3 times.   I say "up to"  because depending upon the situation,  less than 3 can be effective.   Back when I treated,  I found 1 fall/spring vaporization sufficient.  The key to OA is applying when there is no to very little brood as it is not effective against mites in capped cells.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 11, 2013, 10:28:48 am

   It is my understanding that trickling more than one time can do damage to the bees, 

There is no need to do 2 trickling inside short time.

But that knowledge "only one treatment" is old knowledge.


Many in Finland do one treatment in October and another in March after cleansing flight.


Trickling has been used in Europe 15 - 10 years. It is well known what it makes to hives what is does not do.

Beliefs of persons are another thing. No researches can change them.

If an adult man is afraid of using 0.1 g digital balance, how can we help him?

.
.

Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Robo on January 11, 2013, 10:44:49 am

There is no need to do 2 trickling inside short time.

But that knowledge "only one treatment" is old knowledge.


Many in Finland do one treatment in October and another in March after cleansing flight.


That is what I was referring to,  more than 1 treatment in a short period of time.   ie. poorly trickling or when bees aren't clustered and not getting the expected results.
Title: Re: Treatment free
Post by: Finski on January 11, 2013, 02:00:49 pm

That is what I was referring to,  more than 1 treatment in a short period of time.   ie. poorly trickling or when bees aren't clustered and not getting the expected results.

In Finland all are warned about this very carefully.  Bigger danger is that guys give a milder dosage and it is not effective.

Like my friend said: "I put allways half what is recommended" and he was in troubles.